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Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.07.24 01:58:00 - [121] Originally by: Jesslyn Daggererux Originally by: Breaker77 Yes, but ninja salvaging is the highest occupation in regards to forum tears. what, you people get your jollies off on stealing my hard work? seriously? edit: yknow what, im not dont with this thought. eve could be a great game if it wassnt for jerks like that. i bet you kick puppies. i mean who you act like in the game is a reflection of who you are IRL. and you disgust me. You just proved my point. A sensible person would know when to shut their ****ing mouth and take it like a man. EVE, after all, is just a game. If it's more to you than that, then I suggest professional help.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.07.24 05:20:00 - [122] Quote: EVE, after all, is just a game. No, its the RL "The Last Starfighter". This is clearly a signature.
Takseen	Posted - 2010.07.24 07:28:00 - [123] Originally by: Ressiv Some info: 1 sanctum (and not one of the best) gives me about 9m in salvage and loot. That salvage can be doubled in value by building rigs off it. Total bounty in this sanctum was 40m. Get a clue. That only makes sense if you can't buy the salvage components on the market and make the same profit off the rigs while running another Sanctum. Which may well be the case in 0.0, I dunno. Its also kind of irrelevant since the discussion was about ninja salvagers, who are hardly a concern in your part of Eve.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.07.24 10:37:00 - [124] People are stll feeding this troll? Anywayà Originally by: Ressiv Originally by: Captain Yifan So the ore you mine is obviously free then, right? ...yup .. sounding like a monkey here ... there's no minerals in rigs m8 You know where the "ore you mine is free" quip comes from don't you? It's the standard thing clueless people say when they think that, just because they didn't buy ore from the market, they can build and sell ships at 100% profit. He's not saying that there is any ore in rigs; he's accusing you of doing the same mistake and thinking that salvage is free. Quote: Some info: 1 sanctum (and not one of the best) gives me about 9m in salvage and loot. That salvage can be doubled in value by building rigs off it. Total bounty in this sanctum was 40m. Get a clue. Interesting. Also, completely irrelevant. That's 30% of the profit of a complexà which tells us nothing about the missions being discussed here. You were implicitly claiming you could get 40Mil worth of salvage out of AE, and that's just not the case. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Jesslyn Daggererux Non-Aligned Movement Biologic License Application	Posted - 2010.07.24 11:42:00 - [125] Originally by: Tippia People are stll feeding this troll? its okay tippy, i kind of prodded them because i wanted to get to 5 pages in under 24 hours. success. i mean the topic was weak, content was weak. maybe the subject line was good? im more likely to believe i just ran into the right people. cant fly a drake and dont ever plan to unless theres nothing else sub-bs i can do. its not that i think it sucks, its just a thing. i think its too good. at least compared to the dumpster that is the brutix unless its being used to suicide gank. Originally by: CCP Fallout Hola, esta forum es ingles solamente. This forum is English only. Welcome to my lock. Now please, zip your pants. I don't need a show.
Famble Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.07.24 11:47:00 - [126] Originally by: Celestine Santora You know I'm not a heavy missioner but I do 1 or 2 L4s pretty much every night at least and I have NEVER ONCE had a ninja salvager/looter. Maybe you should pick less populated systems to mission in. This.
ShinjiKI Gallente Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers The 0rphanage	Posted - 2010.07.24 11:48:00 - [127] you just got trolled also congrats on the 5 pages jesslyn
Hulkageddon Jackpot Amarr Hulkageddon Orphanage HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.07.24 12:50:00 - [128] oh look! it's this topic again!
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.07.24 13:07:00 - [129] Edited by: Ressiv on 24/07/2010 13:10:18 Edited by: Ressiv on 24/07/2010 13:09:09 Originally by: Tippia That's 30% of the profit of a complexà which tells us nothing about the missions being discussed here. You were implicitly claiming you could get 40Mil worth of salvage out of AE, and that's just not the case. Ahum ... you need to pay a bit more attention. I never stated a figure, I said 30 to 50 % of mission total. You just mixed someone elses statement with mine. And that person said 20m, not 40m. AE is full of juicy BS's, so it can actualy be compared to a low-end sanctum quite well. The salvage collection costs 20min. tops, with an alt that has no mission skills at all. So while not entirely 'free', it's also not cutting into my mission profit to collect it. Comparing that to mining is comparing apples to oranges. In reaction to the 'only valid if you dont buy it off the market' is only partialy true. The people buying it pay outrageously low prices for the salvage, and only people in a hurry or clueless about the actual value direct sell it to them. If you want to maximise mission profit, you handle it yourself through sell orders or rig production. Everybody saying salvage is worth next to nothing, and not worth the time are either doing something very wrong, or dont have alts to handle the salvage. (or low SP corp members, which love to get their hands on some extra isk that way in most cases, along with standing increase and LP's) The fact is, ninja salvage is a very good way to make a lot of money, if you probe out L4's with multiple rooms, and be a little carefull. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Clumsy Pilot	Posted - 2010.07.24 13:30:00 - [130] Edited by: Clumsy Pilot on 24/07/2010 13:30:46 Nijas problems? Simply kill them. Be a man. Most of them are cowards anyway.

Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.07.24 13:35:00 - [131] Originally by: Ressiv Ahum ... you need to pay a bit more attention. I never stated a figure, I said 30 to 50 % of mission total. No, I'm using your figure of 30û50% and applying it to how much you earn from AE ù about 80Mil. Quote: AE is full of juicy BS's, so it can actualy be compared to a low-end sanctum quite well. àbut nowhere near 40Mil. Quote: In reaction to the 'only valid if you dont buy it off the market' is only partialy true. The people buying it pay outrageously low prices for the salvage, and only people in a hurry or clueless about the actual value direct sell it to them. If you want to maximise mission profit, you handle it yourself through sell orders or rig production. I'm not saying I disagree with this; I'm just saying that you misunderstood what he was getting at. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.07.24 13:40:00 - [132] Edited by: Ressiv on 24/07/2010 13:40:37 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Ressiv Ahum ... you need to pay a bit more attention. I never stated a figure, I said 30 to 50 % of mission total. No, I'm using your figure of 30û50% and applying it to how much you earn from AE ù about 80Mil. Now I think I'm doing something wrong. I get about 30 to 40m from AE Edit: Is that extra 40m comming from the bonus room or something ?? ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.07.24 14:07:00 - [133] Originally by: Ressiv Now I think I'm doing something wrong. I get about 30 to 40m from AE Edit: Is that extra 40m comming from the bonus room or something ?? I get about 40Mil from rewards, bonus, bounties, and LP. A bit more if I do the bonus room; still a bit more if I loot as well (but I don't have any figures on either of those in my wallet history). If salvage is going to amount to 50% if the total mission income, it will be as much as all other mission income sources put together, so in this case, it would have to come to another 40Mil. It doesn't. Now, if you're saying that you get 30-40M from AE, and 30-50% of that (9û20M) is from rigs, which essentially double the value of the salvage you collect, we end up with something along the lines of 5-10M salvage worth in that mission, and that might be a reasonable amount. However, as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts on the subject, all of this leads me to think that you are forgetting some part of the mission income and that this fact inflates how much you think that salvage is worth. I'd also say that you're missing out on some of the bounties (and again, my 40Mil don't include the bonus room), so it's probably even less than what you remember. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Captain Yifan Shadows Of The Requiem Everto Rex Regis	Posted - 2010.07.24 14:22:00 - [134] Originally by: Ressiv If you want to maximise mission profit, you handle it yourself through sell orders or rig production. I dont know whether you are really clueless or just trolling. As a rig producer myself, I can confirm that it is extremely difficult to make anything more than 10% profit while manufacturing rigs even with maxed out industrial and trade skills (and a $insert_number_here material efficiency blueprint). If you dont have those, you are actually making a loss at making your salvage into rigs. Originally by: Ressiv it's also not cutting into my mission profit to collect it. Really? Did someone pays for your alt so you get to duel-box for free? If not, how do you pay for your alt? RL money? Plex? Originally by: Ressiv Comparing that to mining is comparing apples to oranges. Except, that the concept of opportunity cost in both professions are equally important. Wait, you dont believe you opportunity cost right? Originally by: Ressiv Everybody saying salvage is worth next to nothing, and not worth the time are either doing something very wrong so, let me paraphrase your argument: By doing activity A, I make 50m/hour By doing activity B, I make 30m/hour I am going to do activity B, because 30m/hour is very good. Can you see the flaw in your argument? No, we are not saying that salvage and loot is worthless in terms of absolute number of isk, but rather, that there is a better alternative (read: opportunity cost), which for the lvl4 MR, is to simply forfeit the salvage and carry on to the next mission. This is true even when you have an salvage alt, because once your salvage alt reaches enough SP to pump out some serious DPS, it becomes simply better to duelbox the mission instead. On the other hand, for a ninja salvager, salvaging is good because he has no better alternative. In other word, his oppurtunity cost of doing salvaging is far lower than that of a mission runner. Therefore, the last paragraph of your post is correct, although I highly doubt whether you understand why you are correct or you just got lucky.
Ultim8Evil Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.07.24 15:09:00 - [135] 5 pages = tl;dr Marauders have 3 utility highs for a reason.
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.07.24 15:45:00 - [136] Edited by: Ressiv on 24/07/2010 15:56:47 Originally by: Tippia If salvage is going to amount to 50% if the total mission income, it will be as much as all other mission income sources put together, so in this case, it would have to come to another 40Mil. It doesn't. ah .. I'm stupid in expressing %'s ... Quote: Now, if you're saying that you get 30-40M from AE, and 30-50% of that (9û20M) is from rigs Thats what I ment. And I dont build rigs from all salvage, just the ones worth building. Quote: which essentially double the value of the salvage you collect, we end up with something along the lines of 5-10M salvage worth in that mission, and that might be a reasonable amount. Thats a bit on the low side for what I get from my experience, but yeah somewhere along those lines. Quote: However, as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts on the subject, all of this leads me to think that you are forgetting some part of the mission income and that this fact inflates how much you think that salvage is worth. I dont count the LP conversion to ISK, as I usualy use em for faction ammo. Originally by: Captain Yifan I dont know whether you are really clueless or just trolling. As a rig producer myself, I can confirm that it is extremely difficult to make anything more than 10% profit while manufacturing rigs even with maxed out industrial and trade skills (and a $insert_number_here material efficiency blueprint). If you dont have those, you are actually making a loss at making your salvage into rigs. Meh .. that completely depends on where you sell them, and how close that place is to a market hub. But you already knew that I guess. My combat toon, with ME0 BPO's and no industrial skills to speak of, makes a profit on 'em. Edit: Also: that is when you buy the salvage, not when you use an otherwise idle toon to pick it up. Quote: Really? Did someone pays for your alt so you get to duel-box for free? If not, how do you pay for your alt? RL money? Plex? I can not mine and mission at the same time and I already dualbox my missions. My mining / station trading alt would be sitting on her ass otherwise, so yeah, this is not cutting into other profits. Quote: Except, that the concept of opportunity cost in both professions are equally important. Wait, you dont believe you opportunity cost right? Where did I say that ? Everything in EVE has opportunity cost, picking up salve with a toon otherwise sitting on her ass not doing anything VS mining still makes for a bad comparisson. With mining solo I have to either use a jetcan (remember my other 2 toons are missioning) or warp to station when full all the time ... not to mention the fact that I risk loosing a hulk. Quote: so, let me paraphrase your argument: By doing activity A, I make 50m/hour By doing activity B, I make 30m/hour I am going to do activity B, because 30m/hour is very good. Can you see the flaw in your argument? Here's the flaw in yours: Doing A & B makes more profit compared to just A Quote: No, we are not saying that salvage and loot is worthless in terms of absolute number of isk, but rather, that there is a better alternative (read: opportunity cost), which for the lvl4 MR, is to simply forfeit the salvage and carry on to the next mission. This is true even when you have an salvage alt, because once your salvage alt reaches enough SP to pump out some serious DPS, it becomes simply better to duelbox the mission instead. Since this toon will never shoot anything other then probes and mining lasers, that is not going to happen any time soon... But if you are talking about a single toon or dual combat toon scenario, you might be right. Tho I think the 15 - 20 minutes usualy involved in salvaging, while the other toon is already running the next mission is not delaying your mission time by a factor that doing A & B becomes less proffitable then just doing A. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
BrundleMeth Caldari Temporal Mechanics	Posted - 2010.07.24 16:00:00 - [137] Edited by: BrundleMeth on 24/07/2010 16:01:22 Originally by: Jesslyn Daggererux what, you people get your jollies off on stealing my hard work? seriously? edit: yknow what, im not dont with this thought. eve could be a great game if it wassnt for jerks like that. i bet you kick puppies. i mean who you act like in the game is a reflection of who you are IRL. and you disgust me. These are the same type of trash who in RL download music and movies they haven't paid for and refuse to admit they are nothing but thieves. They make up all kinds of lame excuses like, "I wouldn't buy it anyway" or "those guys are already rich enough". But if their boss at work was to come and say to them "sorry, you don't get paid this week, you worked for free", then listen to the whining and threats. There has been more than one game company gone under due to pirateing of their products. Those people are one of the reasons I don't donate blood...
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.07.24 16:14:00 - [138] Originally by: Ressiv I dont count the LP conversion to ISK, as I usualy use em for faction ammo. Like I said: you're not counting all of the income. Just because you choose to immediately spend it elsewhere doesn't mean you're not getting it, and thus you get a skewed sense of how much your salvage is worth. Quote: Quote: so, let me paraphrase your argument: By doing activity A, I make 50m/hour By doing activity B, I make 30m/hour I am going to do activity B, because 30m/hour is very good. Can you see the flaw in your argument? Here's the flaw in yours: Doing A & B makes more profit compared to just A No, because doing A & B means you have to split your time between them. So you end up doing A for, say, 30 minutes and earn 25M and then do B for 30 minutes and earn 15M, for a total of 40à when you could just do A all the time and earn 50. That's the whole point of opportunity cost: doing one thing means you're not doing something else. Once you get really quick about it, you soon find that the opportunity cost of sticking around and salvaging is just too high ù you're far better off just skipping to the next mission and raking more cash. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.07.24 16:24:00 - [139] Edited by: Ressiv on 24/07/2010 16:24:59 Originally by: Tippia No, because doing A & B means you have to split your time between them. So you end up doing A for, say, 30 minutes and earn 25M and then do B for 30 minutes and earn 15M, for a total of 40à when you could just do A all the time and earn 50. That's the whole point of opportunity cost: doing one thing means you're not doing something else. Once you get really quick about it, you soon find that the opportunity cost of sticking around and salvaging is just too high ù you're far better off just skipping to the next mission and raking more cash. Again, I use a toon otherwise doing nothing to mob up the BC and up wrecks (and everything else if in range), I dont stop missioning while I do that, and the toon being used is useless for missioning (and wont be able to for the next 2 years either). I dont lose out on mission time this way I think ? Maybe I got it all wrong tho, but I cant see where my logic fails in my case.. The LP not being counted as proffit and thus giving a false sense of salvage value is true I guess .. didnt think of that too well. ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
Jesslyn Daggererux Non-Aligned Movement Biologic License Application	Posted - 2010.07.24 16:50:00 - [140] tl;dr my own thread. thread is now about salvage isk/h. Originally by: CCP Fallout Hola, esta forum es ingles solamente. This forum is English only. Welcome to my lock. Now please, zip your pants. I don't need a show.

Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.07.24 16:51:00 - [141] Originally by: Jesslyn Daggererux tl;dr my own thread. thread is now about salvage isk/h. See, that's the problem with trolling ù you never know when a useful discussion might break out and ruin things. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.07.24 17:35:00 - [142] Edited by: stoicfaux on 24/07/2010 17:35:21 Originally by: Ressiv Again, I use a toon otherwise doing nothing to mob up the BC and up wrecks (and everything else if in range), I dont stop missioning while I do that, and the toon being used is useless for missioning (and wont be able to for the next 2 years either). I dont lose out on mission time this way I think ? If that's the best you can do with your alt, then yes, your logic is fine. However, a while back, a guy named Kerfira posted about isk/hour using inefficient and efficient level 4 running techniques. Efficient mission running. Another thread. Having extra DPS in a mission made a difference. Quote: The LP not being counted as proffit and thus giving a false sense of salvage value is true I guess .. didnt think of that too well. Yeah, the value of LP is not something to be ignored. ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
Ressiv Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association	Posted - 2010.07.24 17:46:00 - [143] Originally by: stoicfaux If that's the best you can do with your alt, then yes, your logic is fine. However, a while back, a guy named Kerfira posted about isk/hour using inefficient and efficient level 4 running techniques. Efficient mission running. Another thread. Thanx for those threads, good readups. However, I'm a long way from a Golem And since the salvage ho is a pure indy toon, and I already have 2 toons running the missions, I feel like it would be wasting quite some ISK to leave the salvage and loot. Reading that thread and noticing only 7% income from salvage I think I have to redo my math, and try to not fail this time Quote: Yeah, the value of LP is not something to be ignored. I think thats where I go wrong with my statements. Oh well .. proved myself to be an ass I guess ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ==========================
SupaKudoRio	Posted - 2010.07.24 18:27:00 - [144] Keep it going another few pages and you'll have definitely earned that 10/10. Please re-size your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.07.24 18:50:00 - [145] Originally by: Ressiv I think thats where I go wrong with my statements. Oh well .. proved myself to be an ass I guess It's EVE ù you've never fully figured it out, and when you have, some annoying dev comes along and changes ità The whole LP vs. bounty/salvage is really the classic trade-off in missions. Whichever you can get the most of the quickest is what you should choose, but you can generally only optimise for one of them at a time. The trick is figuring out which one you can make the most ISK from and under which circumstances. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Ultim8Evil Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.07.24 21:02:00 - [146] Got a Marauder yet? /thread
Killstealing	Posted - 2010.07.24 21:17:00 - [147] Originally by: Jesslyn Daggererux Edited by: Jesslyn Daggererux on 24/07/2010 01:39:04 Originally by: Breaker77 Originally by: Grunanca ninja salvaging is the worst isk per hour occupation... Yes, but ninja salvaging is the highest occupation in regards to forum tears. what, you people get your jollies off on stealing my hard work? seriously? edit: yknow what, im not dont with this thought. eve could be a great game if it wassnt for jerks like that. i bet you kick puppies. i mean who you act like in the game is a reflection of who you are IRL. and you disgust me. You... complete me.
Jesslyn Daggererux Non-Aligned Movement Biologic License Application	Posted - 2010.07.25 04:12:00 - [148] Originally by: Ultim8Evil Got a Marauder yet? /thread havent even got a drake yet Originally by: CCP Fallout Hola, esta forum es ingles solamente. This forum is English only. Welcome to my lock. Now please, zip your pants. I don't need a show.
Rashmika Clavain Gallente	Posted - 2010.07.29 16:38:00 - [149] Actually the best thing to do is right click and Abandon Nearby Wrecks. I had a chappie wander into a mission a day or so back when I ventured into a mission hub. The important thing to remember is that they're doing it for: A: They hope shoot them so they can gank your pvp fail mission boat B: Tears
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.07.29 16:49:00 - [150] Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 29/07/2010 16:50:09 Originally by: Ultim8Evil 5 pages = tl;dr Marauders have 3 utility highs for a reason. And anyone who needs a Marauder to do L4s should be ashamed of themselves. Still faster to plow through them with a properly fitted T1 BS and use a dedicated salvager after. Cheaper, too. But since roughly half the people playing this game think armor plates belong on PvE fittings they probably need all the help they can get. My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.



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