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Astrometrics V or No?

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Mavena Hellsblade Fringe Logistics 0	Posted - 2012.07.23 00:40:00 - [1] - Quote I realize the benefits of Deep Space Probes as far as the high sec exploration sig strength tables, but is astro 5 really needed much in wormholes? My immediate goals are to day trip wormholes in BC/AFs but eventually I'd like to go down the hole for a few months. Currently I have 10m SP, and will be able to fly a Cheetah soon. All scanning skills are 4 currently, Could someone please enlighten me what the benefits of Astrometrics 5 would be? inb4 - Do a forum search derps, it only yields a bunch of scanning alt sale threads.
Diego Sarmoti AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 2	Posted - 2012.07.23 00:44:00 - [2] - Quote Not required. A covert ops with scanning rigs works quite well with scanning skills at 4. Edit: yes it helps, as you get 8 vs 7 probes and get to use DSPm but at 10m sp, there are far better things to spend your time on training.
Rroff The Xenodus Initiative. Overclockers Podpilot Services 23	Posted - 2012.07.23 00:48:00 - [3] - Quote DSP that is all.
Mavena Hellsblade Fringe Logistics 0	Posted - 2012.07.23 00:50:00 - [4] - Quote Rroff wrote: DSP that is all. What's the advantage of em? I know they have a larger range but isnt it mostly overkill? can hit full system scans with 32 au probes atm.
Substantia Nigra Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement 767	Posted - 2012.07.23 01:00:00 - [5] - Quote Most ppl, w-space and elsewhere, aren't fans of deep space probes. I love them. They are not great for scanning down sites, combat and core being better for that, but they are great for stocktake scans and for watching the whole system for new ships and new / anoms / sigs (especially new wormholes when you're out-and-about earning iskies). A single deep space probe, set to maximal range, will 'see' the whole system wherever you drop it ... in any system. When i am PvP stalking w-space folk i often drop a DSP (or several) and move them way out into deep space outside the system margind. Set to max range I can keep a constant eye on uncloaked ships and no-one can see my probe(s) on their DS. When we were clearing sleeper sites we'd have a scanner alt with a single DSP deployed. We always knew the status of our WHs so he would be an instant warning of a new WH ... and would usually see it, or hostile ships, well before they were a real risk. You can do the same with combat probes in many systems, but DSPs remove a level of hassle. Stocktake scan. When I hop into a new w-system I drop a sungle DSP and within seconds know how many POSes, ships, and sigs / anoms there are. I also have a fair idea which sigs are the wormhole I am often looking for. But, like I said, most ppl don't see this as worthwhile ... or at least not worth the training time. I have myself, my main scanner, and all my backup scanners trained to use DSPs. IMO, for noob wormholers you prolly have mor eimportant stuff to train - except for your main scanner alt - but once you're seriously w-space inclined uou may start to see the benefits ... or may not as the case may be :-) We can build and sell pretty much every ship. Check my bio for details. Our pirate epic arc completion packages really are very good: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=12973&find=unread
Jack Miton Bite Me inc 391	Posted - 2012.07.23 01:25:00 - [6] - Quote You do not need deep space probes at all in WHs. What you do want is 8 probes since probing with 8 is much better than with 7. If you plan on scanning in WHs a lot, I consider this a mandatory skill to have. Note that you should train covops to 4 first tho.
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost 73	Posted - 2012.07.23 02:17:00 - [7] - Quote As an astrometrics V pilot, I'll say this: the skill is useful but not in the way you think. DSPs are a niche tool in W-space, useful mainly for overwatch/sigsweeping duties and sometimes for getting a complete initial read of sigs in a large system. However, the ability to fit Tech Two probe launchers shouldn't be underestimated; they provide an inexpensive (1mil vs 40mil for a Sisters) way to add that little extra to non-scanning-bonused ships that are still expected to be able to scan reasonably well (WH closing ships, scouting stealth bombers, nomad Orcas, and I'm sure you can think of others too).
Faulx Brother Fox Corp 29	Posted - 2012.07.23 07:13:00 - [8] - Quote DPSs can also be useful for isolating (via their Signature Strength) what signatures will be without having to fully scan them down. In certain systems, this technique can be used to identify the local static (or other wormholes) within seconds of launching your first probe. In other systems, it can narrow the field of signatures that could be the static significantly. For example, the statics D382 c2 to c2 (1/15), Y683 c2 to c4 (1/25), and R474 c2 to c6 (1/80) will all be the only signature in system within the 1/15, 1/25, and 1/80 bands respectively in class 2 systems. Meanwhile, the B274 c2 to high (1/10) will be hiding amongst the K162s and ladar and grav perimeter sites in the 1/10 band, and the E545 c2 to null (1/40) will be nestled within the core grav and ladar and the radar and mag sites in the 1/40 band. Here's another example, that finds wormholes in high sec. These charts show the signature strengths of all wormholes for easy comparison, and this chart shows the signature strengths of all signatures in W-space. Although core and combat probes can also be used for this task, DSPs in particular are best because of how wide a net they cast. The signal strength measured by all probes starts to fall off after a distance of about 25% of the radius the probe is set to scan. Even combat probes at 64 AUs would have a hard time accurately scanning, in one pass, anything larger than a 16-24 AU system (after 24 AUs signatures would start to appear to be in a lower band). DSPs with their 256 AU scan setting can sweep even the largest systems (64-96 AUs) with little signal fall off. This is a real time saver when you're trying to locate an exit.
Jack Tronic borkedLabs 44	Posted - 2012.07.23 11:06:00 - [9] - Quote Astro V + T2 Probe Launcher or GTFO. Only idiots use faction launchers on cov ops(which are worth 2x the hull).
Max Wager Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 3	Posted - 2012.07.23 13:12:00 - [10] - Quote Jack Tronic wrote: Astro V + T2 Probe Launcher or GTFO. Only idiots use faction launchers on cov ops(which are worth 2x the hull). The only reason you should be losing a cov ops ship is if you hero tackle something. And if you're hero tackling something, it better be worth more than a 50m cov ops frig.
Hathrul DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale. 105	Posted - 2012.07.23 13:25:00 - [11] - Quote Jack Tronic wrote: Astro V + T2 Probe Launcher or GTFO. Only idiots use faction launchers on cov ops(which are worth 2x the hull). yes, in wh space we really need to consider a 30m module. sister probe launcher give higher strenght, and with the amount of probing you do in wh space i think anyone not spending the little isk on a sister launcher for their main scanning ships is an idiot. as for astro 5. yes, i think its a good skill to have. 8 probes can be rather usefull, though how usefull or fast it is compared to 7 is open for debate (i only use 8 in very specific situations) and dsp's are nice to have for blanket scans. both, as substantia nigra said for security blanket scans, but for seeing if there is anything alive in a system for pvp as well. however, since you mentioned you only have 10m sp, id say its not worth the effort. id prefer covert-ops 5 any day over astro 5, and im also pretty sure you got a lot other skills to train keep it in mind if you remain in wh space, but train other things for the moment
illy velo Production N Destruction INC. The Last Chancers. 27	Posted - 2012.07.23 15:53:00 - [12] - Quote Am I the only one that uses a 4 probe formation?
Meytal School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 71	Posted - 2012.07.23 17:23:00 - [13] - Quote illy velo wrote: Am I the only one that uses a 4 probe formation? No, you definitely are not. But the rest of us wish you used more probes so it wouldn't take as long for you to scan down the hole where we're waiting on the other side to ambush you. Think about others, sheesh!
Infinite Force Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance 95	Posted - 2012.07.23 17:32:00 - [14] - Quote illy velo wrote: Am I the only one that uses a 4 probe formation? Maybe? Personally, I prefer a 7 probe formation - C, N, S, E, W, F, B. I like the flexabiltiy that Astro V gives you - launching that single DSP and getting a good read on the entire system (as has already been pointed out) is awesome. You can't monitor an entire system with regular probes if it's one of the really big ones. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud Hammer Mineral Compression -á- The only way to go!
Soon Shin Caucasian Culture Club Transmission Lost 104	Posted - 2012.07.23 18:28:00 - [15] - Quote I have several characters that have astro V, but I never used more than 7 probes. 7 Probe setup is simple to do. Center, Top, Bottom, North, East, West, South. But what formation do you have to use when doing an 8 probe scan? Is the advantage worth the extra time to set up that 8th probe formation?
Hathrul DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale. 105	Posted - 2012.07.23 18:51:00 - [16] - Quote Soon Shin wrote: I have several characters that have astro V, but I never used more than 7 probes. 7 Probe setup is simple to do. Center, Top, Bottom, North, East, West, South. But what formation do you have to use when doing an 8 probe scan? Is the advantage worth the extra time to set up that 8th probe formation? you can either use a cube, which i dont like since youll lack your center probe, or use a cross in a square, where you put the cross at 1-2AU and the square at 4-8AU
Ryelek d'Entari Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 33	Posted - 2012.07.23 18:58:00 - [17] - Quote Or you can use 4-in-4, in which you have an outer group of 4 set to very wide range, and an inner group of 4 set to smaller range. Useful for keeping track of many ships/sigs across a wide area, while getting a warpin on one of them.
Frothgar V0LTA Verge of Collapse 28	Posted - 2012.07.23 20:13:00 - [18] - Quote Jack Tronic wrote: Astro V + T2 Probe Launcher or GTFO. Only idiots use faction launchers on cov ops(which are worth 2x the hull). Why not use faction? Why not use it everywhere you can in wormholes? A sisters launcher and probes is only 50mil, and you make that off of like 2 sleeper battleships. If they only have 10mil SP, time to train up for 8 probes might keep them from actually enjoying the game, where as a small amount of ISK can be used to substitute for time and allow them to better enjoy other aspects of the game. I have Pinpointing and Rangefinding to V, but only astrometrics IV and I've got 118mil SP and have lived in W-space for over 2 years. Its nice I'm sure, but you don't actually need it. You can totally get by with IV IV IV and be completely fine.
illy velo Production N Destruction INC. The Last Chancers. 27	Posted - 2012.07.23 22:56:00 - [19] - Quote Meytal wrote: illy velo wrote: Am I the only one that uses a 4 probe formation? No, you definitely are not. But the rest of us wish you used more probes so it wouldn't take as long for you to scan down the hole where we're waiting on the other side to ambush you. Think about others, sheesh! The thing is, I can scan down most sigs in under a minute and our C3 -> Hisec static in about 40 seconds. Granted, I have pinpointing at 4, scanning rigs, sisters probes and a sisters launcher. Maybe I am making up time launching and arranging less probes? I imagine I could get off one pass with 4 before someone even has their probes launched and their formation created with 8.
Rroff The Xenodus Initiative. Overclockers Podpilot Services 24	Posted - 2012.07.23 23:01:00 - [20] - Quote You don't _need_ it but a DSP can be invaluable if your in need of sorting whats what sig wise in a wormhole very fast for whatever reason. Even if your covert ops frig does get killed (which 99/100 will be due to pilot error) that sister probe launcher will have paid for itself many times over in reducing how much effort scanning is. TBH unless you do something silly about the only scenario which you can't really avoid via better piloting is when someone is doing proper hole control on a system they are sieging - seen 2-3 corps use a technique that will catch 99% of ships that jump into it.
Substantia Nigra Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement 771	Posted - 2012.07.23 23:02:00 - [21] - Quote Jack Tronic wrote: Astro V + T2 Probe Launcher or GTFO. Only idiots use faction launchers on cov ops(which are worth 2x the hull). LOL, I love comments like this. Astro V = Deep Space Probe capable. I virtually always use faction probe launchers on my scanner ships. They are better at their job and, hell, I live(d) in w-space so a few tens-of-million is chicken-** iskies. ItGÇÖs also very rare (altho possible as I have demonstrated) to lose your scanner ships. TheyGÇÖre pretty safe getting thru even the most heavily camped wormhole / gate and if you take just a little care youGÇÖre unlikely to warp into a bubble near your intended destination. Of course, if you also dual-role them as a tackler then youGÇÖre gonna be increasing their chances of getting killed. illy velo wrote:** Am I the only one that uses a 4 probe formation? Prolly not. When I am scanning everything in a busy system I use a concentric-8 pattern GÇª two concentric rings of four probes. This is, by far, the fastest method of getting bookmarks for a bundle of locations GÇª or for sorting thru a bundle of site to find what youGÇÖre after. IGÇÖve tried to GÇÿdrawGÇÖ this pattern in a previous forum posting - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1040229#post1040229 This pattern is very powerful and pretty easy to setup. In the past I was a denier, claiming that four was all you need, and I have also used 3D polygonal patterns, usually of 7 probes, in the past GÇª but the concentric-8 is by far (IMO) the fastest. When thereGÇÖs only a small number of sites I often use five probes, a central deep space surrounded by four RSS core or Sisters combat probes. I know others do this also because IGÇÖve seen similar patterns on DS when evil doers have been hassling us. The DSP, in this pattern is more to keep an eye on the ship count in the system than to aid with obtaining the bookmark. When I am trying to be sneaky and just monitoring I use DSPs outside the system margins. When I am being sneaky and trying to BM ships in space I use drop-scan-withdraw-repeat method, assembling the probe pattern way out in deep space, which leaves probes in their DS range for only a few seconds at a time. We can build and sell pretty much every ship. Check my bio for details. Our pirate epic arc completion packages really are very good: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=12973&find=unread
ChrisLCTR Lead Farmers Origin Kill It With Fire 1	Posted - 2012.07.23 23:09:00 - [22] - Quote 8 probes are good. One square at 1au. Then another at 8 au outside of the small sqaure. Quick and effective. If you're in WH space and complaining about the cost of a sisters launcher you are doing it wrong.
Frothgar V0LTA Verge of Collapse 29	Posted - 2012.07.23 23:51:00 - [23] - Quote Rroff wrote: You don't _need_ it but a DSP can be invaluable if your in need of sorting whats what sig wise in a wormhole very fast for whatever reason.. Yep, DSPs are great for sorting by strength, that being said the poor fellow only has 10mil SP. Get em in a drake/gas miner and at least making money first ;)
Jack Tronic borkedLabs 45	Posted - 2012.07.24 00:29:00 - [24] - Quote Substantia Nigra wrote: Jack Tronic wrote: Astro V + T2 Probe Launcher or GTFO. Only idiots use faction launchers on cov ops(which are worth 2x the hull). LOL, I love comments like this. Astro V = Deep Space Probe capable. I virtually always use faction probe launchers on my scanner ships. They are better at their job and, hell, I live(d) in w-space so a few tens-of-million is chicken-**** iskies. ItGÇÖs also very rare (altho possible as I have demonstrated) to lose your scanner ships. TheyGÇÖre pretty safe getting thru even the most heavily camped wormhole / gate and if you take just a little care youGÇÖre unlikely to warp into a bubble near your intended destination. Of course, if you also dual-role them as a tackler then youGÇÖre gonna be increasing their chances of getting killed. I love comments made by people trying to make themselves look awesome. P.S. You suck.
Rroff The Xenodus Initiative. Overclockers Podpilot Services 24	Posted - 2012.07.24 00:31:00 - [25] - Quote Frothgar wrote: Rroff wrote: You don't _need_ it but a DSP can be invaluable if your in need of sorting whats what sig wise in a wormhole very fast for whatever reason.. Yep, DSPs are great for sorting by strength, that being said the poor fellow only has 10mil SP. Get em in a drake/gas miner and at least making money first ;) Ah was assuming it was a scan alt, but if its his main then yeah definitely don't need astro V any time soon for that kinda useage.
Substantia Nigra Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement 776	Posted - 2012.07.24 00:59:00 - [26] - Quote Jack Tronic wrote: Only idiots use faction launchers on cov ops. LOL, I love comments like this ... Jack Tronic wrote: P.S. You suck. ... and this. I'm an idiot and I suck. Phew Ima gonna start feeling really bad about myself soon :-) Wot next? g.a.y-t.a.r.d too? Poverty of thought is a wondrous thing. We can build and sell pretty much every ship. Check my bio for details. Our pirate epic arc completion packages really are very good: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=12973&find=unread
Callduron 133	Posted - 2012.07.25 06:09:00 - [27] - Quote Regarding the 8th probe the maths are in favour of using it. Sometimes the sig will be on the edge of your probe formation. With more triangulation points there's a better chance that the sig will be inside the blue ball of more than one probe. If you like think of it as firing a burst of automatic fire with 8 bullets rather than 7. Not decisive 99% of the time but undeniably better. i think that when you scan and get a red zone, rather than a point, it means only one of your probes caught the sig. So when you see that large red shaded area, think if I had had an 8th probe that might have been caught by two of my probes and given me a point rather than just one. The DSP chart is really useful. Sometimes I only want to look for the static which with my set up is always a 0.07 strength sig in my wormhole. Back when I had 30 sigs there, mostly grav sites, that was great. In my wormhole mag sites and radar sites are also always 0.07 so in a chart looking like this: 0.29 0.29 0.29 0.29 0.29 0.29 0.15 0.15 0.15 0.15 0.15 0.15 0.07 0.07 0.07 it means I only need to check 3 sigs to find my exit. DSPs generally are really nice probes. Many systems are bigger than 64 AU and most are bigger than 32 AU. I always start by checking 256 AU and making a list in Notepad of the sigs, cross-referenced against the DSP chart if I'm only looking for a certain type of hole. (For example sometimes I want to check null sec systems for a wormhole to high sec as I live in a class 1 with a null static). So yeah, I personally would hate to have Astrometrics 4 after getting used to playing with V. It's a lot worse. However I do a LOT of scanning.
Antelin Viziam Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2012.07.25 11:08:00 - [28] - Quote Soon Shin wrote: I have several characters that have astro V, but I never used more than 7 probes. 7 Probe setup is simple to do. Center, Top, Bottom, North, East, West, South. But what formation do you have to use when doing an 8 probe scan? Is the advantage worth the extra time to set up that 8th probe formation? I will have to give this set up a try just to test it. I normally used to run 7 probes. 1 at 8au, 2 center at 2 and 1 au, and 4 @ 4au n,s,e,w overlapping a bit. In your initial scan of the center you can usually knock out 5-6 sigs with a single scan. That is if you are just trying to ID what type they are. Only takes one more scan with adjusted sized to get it to 100%, and that is was with most skills at 3.
FloppieTheBanjoClown The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective 2031	Posted - 2012.07.25 15:13:00 - [29] - Quote Jack Tronic wrote: Only idiots use faction launchers on cov ops(which are worth 2x the hull). T3s "only" cost around 600 mil, yet I routinely see 3 billion isk fits for them. It's about getting optimal performance. I've bought four sisters expanded probe launchers in two years. I still own three of them, one on each of my best scanning characters. Sisters launchers are still the best there is. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711
Batelle French Defence Union 94	Posted - 2012.07.25 15:20:00 - [30] - Quote come on, how often do you lose a covops frig thats dedicated to scanning? Put a faction launcher on it unless you plan to hero tackle. Also, in wormholes, the mag/radar/ladar/grav sites all exist in a single strength band, so a DSP lets you filter them from other wormholes quickly. The Golem - The "Meh" of Marauders

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