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Mauvais Sentier	Posted - 2010.07.27 23:35:00 - [31] Potrero, I don't have an comparison of Wolf vs Enyo yet. I don't like them both because I like going for solo roams and they both have crippled tackle. I could make one but I don't think it will be today.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2010.07.28 01:52:00 - [32] Originally by: Potrero Interesting analysis. How would a Wolf stack up relative to the Ishkur if used instead of the Jaguar? Thought Wolf was DPS king of the AFs... Before the projectile buff the ishkur would win most of the time. After the projectile buff the wolf wins most of the time.
Kane Starkiller Minmatar	Posted - 2010.07.28 08:31:00 - [33] Originally by: Zarnak Wulf Originally by: Potrero Interesting analysis. How would a Wolf stack up relative to the Ishkur if used instead of the Jaguar? Thought Wolf was DPS king of the AFs... Before the projectile buff the ishkur would win most of the time. After the projectile buff the wolf wins most of the time. Plated Wolf is slower than an MWD Ishkur, so the Ishkur wins. If you must fit an AB on both, Ishkur should go AB Scram and TD in the mids and it still wins.
Headerman	Posted - 2010.07.28 08:47:00 - [34] I usually fly a Jag around, with a fit that leave .05 power spare and 3 CPU spare... I run it with 150mm scouts (still skilling up), and whenever i am attacked by drones, my 150's can shoot them out very quickly indeed, from Warrior 2's to Ogres. They go down fast. My jag has a 15k EHP tank on it as well. Once i can squeeze on some T2's, it should make this (OPs) scenario pretty interesting.
Dr Therikal Gallente	Posted - 2010.07.31 21:44:00 - [35] 5x Hobgoblin II's with a very skilled drone pilot (as all Ishkur pilots should be) do a lot of damage, in addition to the rails/blasters. Dictating range means little when you still need to stick within the Ishkur's rail range. At 1Km/s or so with your AB on, and at range, you're not going to have a big enough transversal to counter the turret aspect of the ship. The 30damage passive isn't going to do much once you go right over that point, and the Jag's probably going to go down. --------------------------------- But courage which goes against military expediency is stupidity, or, if it is insisted upon by a commander, irresponsibility. -Erwin Rommel
Azeroth Uluntil Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.07.31 22:32:00 - [36] [Ishkur, Sabre Killer Setup] Coreli C-Type Small Armor Repairer Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Coreli C-Type 1MN Afterburner Warp Scrambler II Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 100 Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Hobgoblin II x5 Think I prefer this setup over any setup listed here. Easily kills wolves and sabres, and a jaguar that gets caught by it won't live. He'll have to run or die. Only frigate that has ever given me problems is a sentinel.
Headerman	Posted - 2010.07.31 23:06:00 - [37] Originally by: Azeroth Uluntil [Ishkur, Sabre Killer Setup] Coreli C-Type Small Armor Repairer Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Coreli C-Type 1MN Afterburner Warp Scrambler II Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 100 Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Hobgoblin II x5 Think I prefer this setup over any setup listed here. Easily kills wolves and sabres, and a jaguar that gets caught by it won't live. He'll have to run or die. Only frigate that has ever given me problems is a sentinel. [Jaguar, New Setup 1] Micro 'Vigor' I Core Augmentation Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II Medium Shield Extender II Medium Shield Extender II Kinetic Deflection Amplifier II 1MN Afterburner II 150mm Light AutoCannon II, EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, EMP S [empty high slot] Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I
Azeroth Uluntil Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.08.01 02:13:00 - [38] Originally by: Headerman Originally by: Azeroth Uluntil [Ishkur, Sabre Killer Setup] Coreli C-Type Small Armor Repairer Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Coreli C-Type 1MN Afterburner Warp Scrambler II Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 100 Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Hobgoblin II x5 Think I prefer this setup over any setup listed here. Easily kills wolves and sabres, and a jaguar that gets caught by it won't live. He'll have to run or die. Only frigate that has ever given me problems is a sentinel. [Jaguar, New Setup 1] Micro 'Vigor' I Core Augmentation Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II Medium Shield Extender II Medium Shield Extender II Kinetic Deflection Amplifier II 1MN Afterburner II 150mm Light AutoCannon II, EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, EMP S [empty high slot] Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I Your setup won't work on a variety of levels. First of all, it is little more than a ratting setup due to lack of tackle. Another important thing to note is unless you stay further than small neut range away from me, I only have to neut you out, then switch my orbit to 500m, where your guns won't be able to track, and you won't be able to run your AB. If you run early, oh well.
Headerman	Posted - 2010.08.01 02:25:00 - [39] Perhaps, perhaps not :) This setup can destroy warrior 2's in 2-3 volleys (i have about 2mil Sps in gunnery, the guy i have been testing it with has about 2m Sps in drone skills). I would have no tracking issues against an orbiting ishkur
Azeroth Uluntil Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.08.01 02:41:00 - [40] Originally by: Headerman Perhaps, perhaps not :) This setup can destroy warrior 2's in 2-3 volleys (i have about 2mil Sps in gunnery, the guy i have been testing it with has about 2m Sps in drone skills). I would have no tracking issues against an orbiting ishkur I think you will find you have issues hitting light drones that are orbiting you, as well as the ishkur itself. If a sabre with 125's has issues tracking the ishkur(sabre has a 10% per level tracking bonus) then the jaguar will have problems.
Ophelia Ursus	Posted - 2010.08.01 07:45:00 - [41] Edited by: Ophelia Ursus on 01/08/2010 07:54:13 Originally by: Azeroth Uluntil [Ishkur, Sabre Killer Setup] Coreli C-Type Small Armor Repairer Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Coreli C-Type 1MN Afterburner Warp Scrambler II Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 100 Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Hobgoblin II x5 Think I prefer this setup over any setup listed here. Easily kills wolves and sabres, and a jaguar that gets caught by it won't live. He'll have to run or die. Only frigate that has ever given me problems is a sentinel. A cookie cutter web-scram jag will be able to k@r 8km to negate your blasters, web and volley your drones one by one, then close in and melt you. edit: the only reasons for a sabre to have significant tracking issues (read: not the occasional miss or low-damage hit) against an ishkur are i) terrible character skills ii) having barrage loaded Signature removed.
Kane Starkiller Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.01 08:47:00 - [42] Originally by: Ophelia Ursus Edited by: Ophelia Ursus on 01/08/2010 07:54:13 Originally by: Azeroth Uluntil [Ishkur, Sabre Killer Setup] Coreli C-Type Small Armor Repairer Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Coreli C-Type 1MN Afterburner Warp Scrambler II Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 100 Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Hobgoblin II x5 Think I prefer this setup over any setup listed here. Easily kills wolves and sabres, and a jaguar that gets caught by it won't live. He'll have to run or die. Only frigate that has ever given me problems is a sentinel. A cookie cutter web-scram jag will be able to k@r 8km to negate your blasters, web and volley your drones one by one, then close in and melt you. edit: the only reasons for a sabre to have significant tracking issues (read: not the occasional miss or low-damage hit) against an ishkur are i) terrible character skills ii) having barrage loaded And an MWD Ishkur will be able to keep outside of scram range and dictate range easily because your AB Jag (any AB frig really) has pathetic speed : [Ishkur, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Small Armor Repairer II Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Faint Warp Disruptor I Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 200 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge S 125mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge S [empty high slot] Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I Warrior II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5 If I have to fly a Jag, which is rare, I dual prop it. AB fits have niche but in a majority of situations MWD is mandatory. I think everyone goes through the AB frig thing, I had the same opinion myself in the begining. But after you loose a few AFs to a Battlecruiser that kites your frig and is 100-300 m/s faster, you'll see the light.
Dramis	Posted - 2010.08.01 09:18:00 - [43] If only Eve was balanced around 1v1, then this thread would be relevant...
Headerman	Posted - 2010.08.01 10:51:00 - [44] Originally by: Dramis If only Eve was balanced around 1v1, then this thread would be relevant... If eve was about 1v1, then this thread would be in the official user guide
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.01 17:16:00 - [45] Originally by: Azeroth Uluntil [Ishkur, Sabre Killer Setup] Coreli C-Type Small Armor Repairer Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Coreli C-Type 1MN Afterburner Warp Scrambler II Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 100 Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Hobgoblin II x5 Think I prefer this setup over any setup listed here. Easily kills wolves and sabres, and a jaguar that gets caught by it won't live. He'll have to run or die. Only frigate that has ever given me problems is a sentinel. Good for you you only fight noobs then :) Any decent MWD ship will own that piece of trash. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Proxyyyy Caldari The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.08.01 17:34:00 - [46] The Ishkur is superior to the Jaguar. Often, Jaguars use the gtfo option, but that doesnt mean they one the fight. A Wolf, is a better option for wining against a ishkur; their's also the shield booster, medium shield extended, nos, double gyro, Jaguar. Intresting enough, ive beat it in my standard jag with a web and neut(Kiting + 190dps). Also, the Harpy properly fitted can defeat the jaguar (Or atleast a close fight).
Azeroth Uluntil Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2010.08.01 20:17:00 - [47] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Originally by: Azeroth Uluntil [Ishkur, Sabre Killer Setup] Coreli C-Type Small Armor Repairer Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Coreli C-Type 1MN Afterburner Warp Scrambler II Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 100 Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Hobgoblin II x5 Think I prefer this setup over any setup listed here. Easily kills wolves and sabres, and a jaguar that gets caught by it won't live. He'll have to run or die. Only frigate that has ever given me problems is a sentinel. Good for you you only fight noobs then :) Any decent MWD ship will own that piece of trash. Sure, except for the fact that if you engage me, and I engage you back, you are fighting on my terms, whether you know it or not. 2 years in a rookie corp really gives you weight behind your words, by the way. Post with your main. :-)
VanNostrum	Posted - 2010.08.02 06:30:00 - [48] I tested dual MSE+AB jag on test server a lot and could take on 4 different frigs at the same time I even stood against 2 ishkurs at once and killed them both. Being neuted is not really a disadvantage for the jaguar, you need very little cap to run the AB and it's cycle is long. You can always keep out of their blaster range and the passive tank is amazing. Drones go down in 2 volleys and without drones ishkur doesn't have that high dps. Then again i have AF V trained long ago so i get pretty much EFT numbers in game.
Xzar Fyrarr Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2010.08.02 07:38:00 - [49] Originally by: Azeroth Uluntil Originally by: Sidus Isaacs Originally by: Azeroth Uluntil [Ishkur, Sabre Killer Setup] Coreli C-Type Small Armor Repairer Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Coreli C-Type 1MN Afterburner Warp Scrambler II Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 100 Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Hobgoblin II x5 Think I prefer this setup over any setup listed here. Easily kills wolves and sabres, and a jaguar that gets caught by it won't live. He'll have to run or die. Only frigate that has ever given me problems is a sentinel. Good for you you only fight noobs then :) Any decent MWD ship will own that piece of trash. Sure, except for the fact that if you engage me, and I engage you back, you are fighting on my terms, whether you know it or not. 2 years in a rookie corp really gives you weight behind your words, by the way. Post with your main. :-) @ Op -=Staccato=- Frigate 1v1 Setup. Highs -> 200m ll x3 Rocket Launcher Mids -> Gisti AB Gisti SB Warp Scrambler MSE ll Lows -> DCU Overdrive -iirc- Power Diagnosis system. Rigs -> Whatever to make it run all of this. It perma runs the shield booster and everything else. So far the only frigate I have had trouble with was an Ishkur. Was forced to disengage after killing 7 of his drones because the fight was taking too long and I had corp aggro. -This was After I realized Gist B types Frigate modules cost 20mill +... Thank you Hulkageddon for making my once 10mill shield booster cost 50mill... Thank you so much.- Against another Jaguar , it was a close fight. Granted I was target painted and had drones from a random raven on me as well, I still won. Reason -> The Shield booster. Reason for no gyro, after messing around with different fits, I concluded that I am very confident in my 9mill sp in gunnery that the gyro is not needed but would only act as extra Fluff. I believe it goes 1,700 km overheated...? Can't remember off the top of my head. Training Acceleration control to lvl 4 and then to lvl 5.. -could had sworn I had it at 5 already...- The Extra buffer from the MSE ll is there for 1. Buffer, obviously, and 2. In the case that I can for some unknown reason not perma run my shield booster -run into a Leecher ship-. It has happened only once and it was against some Amarr AF. I just.. "lol" disengaged. He couldn't keep up with the speed at which the Jaguar was going. I have not tested this against faction frigates yet. Not even going to bother testing it against BecauseOfDramielFrigateDeath. @ PL, PL > Op.
Dr Sheepbringer Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.02 09:32:00 - [50] Edited by: Dr Sheepbringer on 02/08/2010 09:33:17 Well ships and modules only help so much, it's much more about being in the right spot. All these vs. plans usually get screwed up when everything DOESN'T go as planned, and they never do. I would say that confusion is the best weapon in eve-overall. A good pilot isn't just looking at the target, he's also looking a position and the position of red, neutrals etc. I've been off the "plan" so many times when neutrals enter the belt and even if they are there for ratting, you don't know. They might be reinforcements for the target. Also these ships can be fitted in so many ways that even failfits can be winners when nobody thinks they can have a fit like that. They might not win, but they can give you those wtf moments when they fly away. Ishkurs have the advantage on making your life real annoying in those ways. ECM drones and a active systems makes you think twice about actions when in reality you should only think once. One mistake doesn't mean autopop as the other one can also make a mistake. I've seen my share of "oh crap i hit an asteroid and inertia went to zero...POP". All and all, I would say that they are both quite equal, but not in the same style. In your face wolf will kill a in your face ishkur, but have the opposites and it becomes interesting. Specially with snakes and stuff. The most annoying thing in wolfs (well matars) is that they can always frigging hit you from "any range". Not hard when not in optimal, but that blasted falloff is always nagging at you a bit and with matars range (or getting into range) is always a pain because they are fast. So they are pretty much getting hits on you all the time and when you do get into the range...you need to deal a lot of damage fast to compensate. This also means they are in range too. That's why I don't think I've ever seen a Enyo kill a wolf. Range. Falloff. Those pesky plates... Stop whining.
Andrea Skye Caldari The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel	Posted - 2010.08.02 10:03:00 - [51] [Ishkur, TANK THIS!] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Warp Scrambler II X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S [empty high slot] Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Hobgoblin II x5 360 dps overloaded. will melt most jags easily. Uless thier faction fit, which doesnt rly count as this is a t2 fit.
VanNostrum	Posted - 2010.08.02 14:28:00 - [52] Edited by: VanNostrum on 02/08/2010 14:29:52 Originally by: Andrea Skye [Ishkur, TANK THIS!] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Warp Scrambler II X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S [empty high slot] Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Hobgoblin II x5 360 dps overloaded. will melt most jags easily. Uless thier faction fit, which doesnt rly count as this is a t2 fit. I see your ishkur and beat it with my awesome armor jag! [Jaguar, armor] 400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1MN Afterburner II Fleeting Progressive Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S [empty high slot] Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I can't touch this (replace ab with mwd on preference) edit: forgot to put on optimal range disruption script
Dr Sheepbringer Gallente	Posted - 2010.08.02 14:38:00 - [53] Yeah, the ishkur will melt it's modules and start running (you run when you notice you have no guns and the jag still lives) when the jag comes after it with enough armor and no melting...also it's faster. Pop. You need to get that plate destroyed BEFORE you overheat. Good luck getting that plate with drones AND have drones when you go in for the kill. Stop whining.
achoura	Posted - 2010.08.02 16:29:00 - [54] Op is focusing on passive jags. While they're the most common (they're the easiest to fly) Active tanked jags can kill ishtars, just like active tanked ishkurs can kill vagas. Taking a polarised view against a ship class that's been broken for years is pointless. All you've said is ship a kills ship b. guess what, there's a lot of ships that can't win a fight against a lot of other ships, welcome to eve. Bring friends. *The EVE servers and their patches*
Lex Fasces Amarr The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.08.02 16:41:00 - [55] dramiel is the best AF =(
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.08.02 18:15:00 - [56] Originally by: Lex Fasces dramiel is the best AF =( qft
Illadelph Justice The Six-Pack Syndicate	Posted - 2010.08.02 18:47:00 - [57] Edited by: Illadelph Justice on 02/08/2010 18:48:19 Originally by: Potrero Interesting analysis. How would a Wolf stack up relative to the Ishkur if used instead of the Jaguar? Thought Wolf was DPS king of the AFs... confirming that i have killed an ishkur in a wolf edit: Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Lex Fasces dramiel is the best AF =( qft QFQFT ------
Land0 CaIrissian Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.08.02 20:04:00 - [58] confirming EFT'ing this proves nothing. In my Ishkur I've killed the following ships: Wolf Jaguar Dramiel In my Ishkur I've lost to the following ships: Wolf Jaguar Dramiel There is no, I-WIN assault frigate. (Though there are I-LOSE AFs) I'd say about 80% of the fight is decided by the initial engagement. I'm still game to pewpew someone's Jag setup.
Goumeka Ghalvia	Posted - 2010.08.10 08:53:00 - [59] Surprised this topic is still going. Good that it is. I'm sorry to say that some of the last posters have never used an Ishkur against a Jaguar and didn't bother reading the original post. I have tested most things that have been brought up here. I still haven't got to the double-rep fitting which looks promising except for the fact that the Jaguar will disengage at will. ECM drones work 50% of the time meaning that 1 cycle will work and the next one will not. That will give the pilot enough time to take out 2 of those guys and that's the end of your jamming. Damage the Ishkur does without 5 combat drones is pathetic and it will take you 3 minutes to drill through the medium extender. Your drones will be dead by then and your DPS will go with them. Want to avoid being kited? Use autocannons. It works but you're doing less damage than your enemy while also having less buffer/equall buffer/highly cap dependant setup (might work haven't tested so no comments) So 1on1 (whoever said there are no duels in Eve hasn't been out roaming for a while) you will either lose because it kited you or tank the damage and force him to disengage. Sorry guys but that's what happens. Jaguar might screw up and/or have an awful fitting and you will win. Alternative has been mentioned before. Almost forgot. MWD Ishkurs. Sure that works unless the opponent has MWD but it's awfully boring. Once your drones are dead (sure they will be) you're looking at slowly drilling through the buffer or having to disengage because it's booster fitted. The problem of Gallente ships is the lack of balance comparing to Minmattar. We have great damage at very short range so it would make sense that we have to be faster than others to allow us the use it. But we are slower than Minmattar who have both awesome range and best speed in New Eden. It is very well known to those who tried fighting a Loki in a Proteus. Second does more DPS and has a great tank but good luck getting close enough. Make it and the Loki is dead. But in order to not send this thread into a t3 frenzy allow me to add this - those ships have a lot more fitting variations so it's not as one sided as I made it sound and I was just attempting to illustrate the known issue. P.S. I love the Ishkur but I also know what it can do solo and what it can't.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.08.10 09:35:00 - [60] Originally by: Goumeka Ghalvia ... You definitely dont know what you are talking about.

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