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Mauvais Sentier
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Posted - 2010.07.27 17:46:00 -
[1]
These two are considered to be the best assault frigates. Ishkur is the only thing that Jaguars worry about and I was trying to figure out why? I've used both ships and the only chance for a Jaguar to lose in a 1on1 against an Ishkur is to be incompetent in the fight. Allow me to prove my point.
Speed - Jaguar 517m/s(No Modules), 1220m/s(AB only), 1334m/s(Popular setup with AB and Nano II) vs an Ishkur 395m/s(No Modules), 935m/s(AB only). Range - Jaguar with 150mm AC II (Most Popular Setup) 6.5km (Max Damage), 10.2km (Barrage) vs Ishkur with Ion II 3.9km (Fed. Navy Antimatter), 6.6km (Null) and 45km with drones. Damage Per Second - Jaguar 153 DPS (Max Damage with 3 X 150mm II), 169 DPS (Max Damage with 3 X 150mm II and Rockets), 138 DPS (Barrage and Rockets) vs Ishkur 127 DPS (Fed. Navy Antimatter), 101 DPS (Null), 206 DPS (Fed. Navy Antimatter and 5 Warrior II), 226 DPS (Fed. Navy Antimatter and 5 Hobs II) Tank - Jaguar 10,598 EHP and 40 DPS Passive Shield Regen with 55% Resistance to Kinetic as the Weak Point (Medium Extender and 2 Extender Rigs), 12,265 EHP and 50 DPS Passive Shield Regen with 63% Resistance to Kinetic as the Weak Point (Medium Extender and Invul Field II, Cap Stable at 41%) vs Ishkur 9,310 EHP and 51 DPS Tank with 46% Resistance to Explosive as the Weak Point (200mm Plate, AR II, NOS, Anti-Explosive Pump, Cap Lasts 1 min 30 sec).
At this point you should be able to see a clear winner. Jaguar has more speed so if it has trouble up close it can get out of blaster range and either kill drones one by one or switch to Barrage and kite the Ishkur. Overload and Snake Sets will barely match Ishkur's speed to the Jaguar default speed. All that with less tank and cap not being stable. If the Jaguar has a neut fitted your chance to use the the armor repair is gone. Jaguar's tank is always there due to the fact that it's passive. It also has higher average resistance to damage. There was an idea to fit the Ishkur with 150mm II and get rid of some problems that cause Ishkur to lose. You can no longer be kited and you can choose the damage you want to do. But... Range - Ishkur 6.1km (3 X 150mm II and Max Damage), 9.5km (Barrage). DPS - Ishkur 79 DPS (Max Damage, No Drones.) 63 DPS (Barrage, No Drones), 178 DPS (Max Damage and 5 Hobs II).
So far so good, right? Also thanks to the PG/CPU consumption that 150mm II have comparing to Ions Ishkur is able to fit a 400mm Plate. That will level Ishkur with Jaguar on EHP. So Ishkur has more DPS and same EHP now. But you will still lose. Why? you ask.
Because Jaguar's Passive Regen lowers your DPS to 128 DPS (Max Damage and 5 Hobs II). That puts you at least 30 DPS below the Jaguar.
I believe I proved my point. It would be nice to have the Ferrari vs Porche situation when it comes to those two ships so that pilot's skill decides the battle when character skills are close unfortunatly that's not the case. |
Barrak
Caldari Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.07.27 17:55:00 -
[2]
I am not familar with these two ships, nor their setups. That said, the Ishkur has a strong drone contingent, then if you fit it for range with either a scram or web, isn't the Jaguar going to have trouble penetrating and maintain a close range?
Barrak In this life (Eve) dying is easy, its living thats hard.
Talent does not count, its what you do with it that does |
Mauvais Sentier
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Posted - 2010.07.27 17:56:00 -
[3]
Barrak, it seems you didn't notice the speed difference between two ships. Jaguar is always faster and thus able to dictate range.
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Barrak
Caldari Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.07.27 18:02:00 -
[4]
I did notice, but my point is that when people want to dictate range, that 'normaly' refers to keep 'at' range, ie a litte further out.
If you are trying to get in close to something that has a scram/web fit, then (please correct me if i am wrong you are going to need a larger difference than what you have there.
Obviously, what can happen is that the Jag will be able to pull out of combat a lot easier, hence, the likelyhood of losing lessens greatly, however trying to get in close enough with 'sufficient' damage is not going to be that easy.
As I mentioned before, I am not overly familar with these setups or ships, so my comments are simply 'food for thought'.
Regards
Barrak In this life (Eve) dying is easy, its living thats hard.
Talent does not count, its what you do with it that does |
Mauvais Sentier
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Posted - 2010.07.27 18:09:00 -
[5]
Barrak, the Jaguar is always able to maintain range. Ishkur can overload and have a full Snake Set in your head and you will match his default speed. It will be enough for him to overload a regular AB II and he will be out of your range instantly. Jaguars are also much more agile. 1.8 comparing to 2.7 of an Ishkur. On top of that it's not tackle-crippled so it's able to web and scram you easily. I hope that made it clear.
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Land0 CaIrissian
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.07.27 18:28:00 -
[6]
Send me a message in-game and we'll find a time to test your theory out. (I'll fly the Ishkur)
I'm not chest-beating, at all. I think doing this in person will better illustrate the results.
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Mauvais Sentier
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Posted - 2010.07.27 18:51:00 -
[7]
Land0 CaIrissian, I've used both ships before and continue to vary them depending on a situation. Thank you for your offer however I have had many fights that prove my "theory". I won in an Ishkur before but it was either due to Jaguar pilot making a mistake or because he had an odd fitting that didn't quite work. Once again thank you for the offer but I will decline. |
Baneken
Gallente Aseveljet
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Posted - 2010.07.27 18:52:00 -
[8]
5x light ecm bots -> jag runs with a tail between it's legs.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Mauvais Sentier
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Posted - 2010.07.27 19:01:00 -
[9]
He's able to escape = you don't win. Plus ECM drones fail often and that will be the end of the fight as a Jaguar will kill them before the 20 second cycle runs out. All he really has to do is to stay out of your range while ECM drones are on him and he's able to do that with ease. Once again I would like to repeat what I've previously said - when both pilots are competent the fight will go only one way.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.07.27 19:11:00 -
[10]
If hes jammed hes not able to escape because he cant counter scram/web... And fights between ishkurs and jags are always very interesting since they can be fitted in many ways.
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Mauvais Sentier
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Posted - 2010.07.27 19:21:00 -
[11]
Webbed Jaguar on overload will be about 200m/s slower than the Ishkur. On manual flight control you can break that range with that speed disadvantage. It will be hard but you have time as your tank will hold up very well to just 3 Ion blasters. With Passive Reg in mind we're talking about 40 DPS coming from the Ishkur. And then again there's the ECM drone cycle. I see you point and it's about the best way to fight a Jaguar with an Ishkur but you're putting all your eggs in one basket which is hoping that ECM works.
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Land0 CaIrissian
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.07.27 19:30:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Land0 CaIrissian on 27/07/2010 19:30:33
Originally by: Mauvais Sentier Land0 CaIrissian, I've used both ships before and continue to vary them depending on a situation. Thank you for your offer however I have had many fights that prove my "theory". I won in an Ishkur before but it was either due to Jaguar pilot making a mistake or because he had an odd fitting that didn't quite work. Once again thank you for the offer but I will decline.
I understand. Again, I'm not trying to prove anything. I fly a lot of Ishkurs, and don't pilot the Jag. From my experience, the outcome can be determined at the very beginning of the fight. It all depends on how you get the initial scram on each other.
I would probably never turn a down a fight against a Jag in the Ishkur. (Unless I magically know the fit and am not prepared for it) I might not kill you, but I most likely won't die.
edit: clarity
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Amarr Supremacist
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Posted - 2010.07.27 19:30:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Mauvais Sentier He's able to escape = you don't win. Plus ECM drones fail often and that will be the end of the fight as a Jaguar will kill them before the 20 second cycle runs out. All he really has to do is to stay out of your range while ECM drones are on him and he's able to do that with ease. Once again I would like to repeat what I've previously said - when both pilots are competent the fight will go only one way.
You are pretty stupid, he can't dictate range when jammed (as Lu-something pointed out).
Also, being so sure of what you're saying and then refusing to back it up with action is just sad. ____________
HYDRA Reloaded - 2nd place at Alliance Tournament 8 EVE-Arena is awesome!
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.07.27 19:31:00 -
[14]
If ish gets initial jam with drones jag is dead if it isnt some snaked gisti booster bluepill eating *** /or ecm burst ***, or wcs *** etc./.
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Dopekitten
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Posted - 2010.07.27 19:33:00 -
[15]
You should note that the passive regen of 40dps ONLY happens at 40% shields, and is less at any other point, so the ishkur will be doing more dps than you think. Also, why would you ever use ECM drones?
Ishkur just needs to overload into blaster range, web+scram, overload his ions and put his drones on you. You die.
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Ubumble
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Posted - 2010.07.27 19:37:00 -
[16]
Ishkur has a good chance, always, with evenly matched pilots. And of course, running away is not winning. To Mauvais' last point, a good test is an "in your face" match (I fly Jag btw): ignore the pesky drones and kiting, straight to optimal, full overheat and let him have it. Normally a close fight and normally Jag wins, but the details (ammo types, exact fit etc) come into play. And ecm drones are a pain in the butt.
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Mauvais Sentier
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Posted - 2010.07.27 19:37:00 -
[17]
Amarr, I already replied to the ECM drones and lack of web post above. Please read and you'll see that although he gets a speed disadvantage he's still able to get out. Manually. You have to give it a try and you'll see. And again I will repeat myself - this is the best way to kill a Jaguar in an Ishkur (It will take a while because of your very low DPS without drones). Hope I cleared it up for you Amarr S.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.27 19:37:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 if it isnt some snaked gisti booster
If you are going to fly a 20 mil frigate then its pretty apparent you should be able to afford the snakes and gistii b type. Otherwise wtf are they in a jag for and the same can be said for the ishkur too. Fit to win imo.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Mauvais Sentier
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Posted - 2010.07.27 19:49:00 -
[19]
To Dopekitten. You're very right. However with Ishkur having no tank other than a 200mm plate under a neut (less than a Medium Extender + 2 Extender rigs which is a popular fitting) or the same EHP with a lower Explosive Resistance that 40 DPS Passive Regen comes in handy. If there are no ECM drones and I'm not a big fan of them because it's luck-based you will end up out of range and unable to apply those 200+ DPS. Smart Jaguar pilot will not go close range against an Ishkur. He will kite or semi-kite. Done it before and had it done to me. To Ubumble. "In your face" Jaguar will lose to an Ishtar most of the time because of a large DPS difference. In those situation unless Ishtar is neuted he will simply overpower the Jaguar.
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Land0 CaIrissian
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.07.27 19:57:00 -
[20]
Plated Ishkur = Sad Ishkur.
But that's for another day.
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Ubumble
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Posted - 2010.07.27 20:03:00 -
[21]
Mauvaise, I hope you meant Ishkur and not Ishtar? Again I say maybe yes and maybe no. Depends on the details of fits. I have won "in your face" vs. Ishkur. Kiting is the "obvious" Jag approach and sometimes the unobvious can give an edge.
To Zeba, I don't agree. You could lose a lot of well fit Jags, or Ishkurs, for the price of those modules. And those modules will save you one-on-one, but you never know for sure that you will fight that way. I wish I had the isk to risk that every time I go for a roam in a Jag. You're obviously much better at making isk than me :( But I imagine that most Jags and Ishkurs out there are more modestly fit.
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Mauvais Sentier
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Posted - 2010.07.27 20:05:00 -
[22]
Land0 CaIrissian, actually that's interesting. Which setup would you propose?
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Mauvais Sentier
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Posted - 2010.07.27 20:13:00 -
[23]
Ubumble, I've never seen a Jaguar that wins upclose against an Ishkur before. None of my Ishkurs unless they were neuted lost in those situations. If you have a setup that you believe will win in such a fight please do share it with us. I would be happy to give it a try on my Jaguar.
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Ghaylenty
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Posted - 2010.07.27 20:16:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Ghaylenty on 27/07/2010 20:16:46 look, lets be honest, autocannons are better for the ishkur even though theyre unbonused. ive had great success 1v1'ing dramiels, wolfs, and jaguars in a dual rep ishtar with a small cap booster, autocannons, nos, and armor explosive hardener. it is actually a pve ishtar i use to run level 3 q18 FW missions, and it would of course be best suited with 1 repper, cap 75 charges (i use 100s), and 2 explosive hardeners.
with that setup and 2 aux nano pump, a jaguar would die. VERY fast. if you have a AB and scram, and the pilot makes a mistake, you can also kill a dramiel. warriors and light ECM drones used properly make a SERIOUSLY dangerous ship, even more dangerous.
with a MSE buffer fit, you lose major survivability in the long run. with just one repper, AC's, nos, and a cap booster, you should be cap stable even with a small neut on you, with properly timed booster charges.
the DPS(40-50) loss from not taking blasters is MORE than made up for in the range and capacitor-free usage of autocannons. they will have more range than you, but there will only be an extra 3-4000m of range, which you can make up for with 5 warriors pounding the guy... and look at it this way, if you were using blasters, you would get kited at a much shorter distance. at least with autocannons, you have the element of surprise and excellent range (~11km total for 200mm)
tldr; ishtar can perma tank other AF's, moderate dps and lots of drones make it a beast. i actually fly amarr |
Mauvais Sentier
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Posted - 2010.07.27 20:24:00 -
[25]
Very interesting Ghaylenty. I have to say I've never tried a double-rep Ishkur before. It sounds like an interesting idea unless you meet a sniper Muninn. I have mentioned AC fitted Ishkurs in the original post but perhaps my friend's (that's his fitting) mistake was adding more buffer instead of trying double-rep. Certainly something I will try. Thank you. Would love to hear more comments like that.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.07.27 20:41:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Zeba If you are going to fly a 20 mil frigate then its pretty apparent you should be able to afford the snakes and gistii b type.
Yes, ofc.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.27 20:49:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Zeba on 27/07/2010 20:51:10
Originally by: Ubumble To Zeba, I don't agree. You could lose a lot of well fit Jags, or Ishkurs, for the price of those modules. And those modules will save you one-on-one, but you never know for sure that you will fight that way. I wish I had the isk to risk that every time I go for a roam in a Jag. You're obviously much better at making isk than me :( But I imagine that most Jags and Ishkurs out there are more modestly fit.
Well tbf I was thinking gistii b types were still plentiful and around 5~8 mil each so I bought up a fair few and haven't really checked contracts on them since then. But now they are 15 mil each and in very low supply. Guess the drop rate got nerfed or someone else bought up a bunch and killed the market for a bit. So thats a fair point.
But the snakes on the other hand are an investment worth their weight in premium pod goo as you only need the first five lg implants to get a decent boost of speed to give you a higher chance to dictate range and the improved ability to quit a fight. Just make sure to have access to jump clones so you can park it for a clean clone on nullsec ops that have the potential of trapping your pod in a bubble. Otherwise there is little chance you will get pod killed as long as you are spamming the warp button before your ship dies(lag willing).
Also jags(ishkurs too ;p) get a really nice boost with the hardwireings. A 3% pg4 powergrid implant in slot six and a 3% kza-1000 turret cpu reduction impant in slot 10 will really open up some rather nice fits that otherwise just barely go past fittings even with max skills. Both of those are pretty cheap too and there are other implant for the rest of the slots to further tweak it out into a beast of an af.
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Zeba you should be able to afford the snakes
Yes, ofc.
If you can afford a t2 fitted tier 2 or 3 battleship you can afford the first five lg snakes.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Mauvais Sentier
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Posted - 2010.07.27 20:57:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Mauvais Sentier on 27/07/2010 20:57:59 To Ghaylenty. You are however forgetting that with your setup the Jaguar can disengage before you kill it. And once it sees no progress on your armor he will do exactly that. Or better yet and that's something I would try, get out of web range and kill your drones. If Ishkur continues to engage and doesn't warp out finish off the drones while out of AC range and come back to to drill it until Ishkur is cap'ed out. Because of drone command lags it's very possible he will take 2 drones out before they are called off and 2 more while the command is in progress. Still leaves a 5 fresh drones in the drone bay but what is stopping him from trying the same again. Only thing left for the Ishkur is to disengage while Jaguar is out of range. But this is coming closer to the pilot skills over character skills. So not really complaining.
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Lubomir Penev
interimo
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Posted - 2010.07.27 21:47:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Mauvais Sentier These two are considered to be the best assault frigates. Ishkur is the only thing that Jaguars worry about and I was trying to figure out why? I've used both ships and the only chance for a Jaguar to lose in a 1on1 against an Ishkur is to be incompetent in the fight. Allow me to prove my point.
Or to meet a MWD/Rail Ishkur in your fail AB jag... Ishkur bonus even lend themselves way more toward rails than blasters anyway.
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Potrero
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2010.07.27 22:24:00 -
[30]
Interesting analysis.
How would a Wolf stack up relative to the Ishkur if used instead of the Jaguar?
Thought Wolf was DPS king of the AFs...
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