Originally by: Oveur

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Originally by: drunkenmaster

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right...

the ships are already balanced against each other in terms of structure, with gall having more, min having less etc. as per RP.

So lets do a blanket structure increase to all races of 75-100% structure. (ie. the same increase in structure for all) after all, with all structural increases the same, gall will still have the most structure anyway.

now with the crap out of the way, onto the meat.

I think it should be a 150% increase to all races, split between shield and armour. like so:

Caldari
120% shield
30% armor

Gallente:
50% shield
100% armor

Amarr:
30% shield
120% armour

Minmatar:
75% shield
75% armor

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There you go. You can close the thread now

summary: blanket increase for structure, as it is useless for all intents and purposes, and is just an escape buffer. And then make the shield/armor total the same for all races, or we'll never hear the end of it.

thank you, thank you. I'll be hear all week, try the omgwtfbbqfishsticks.

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Excellent suggestion. I knew you had the forc... uhm, the fishsticks in you

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Originally by: Oveur

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Originally by: drunkenmaster

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right...

the ships are already balanced against each other in terms of structure, with gall having more, min having less etc. as per RP.

So lets do a blanket structure increase to all races of 75-100% structure. (ie. the same increase in structure for all) after all, with all structural increases the same, gall will still have the most structure anyway.

now with the crap out of the way, onto the meat.

I think it should be a 150% increase to all races, split between shield and armour. like so:

Caldari
120% shield
30% armor

Gallente:
50% shield
100% armor

Amarr:
30% shield
120% armour

Minmatar:
75% shield
75% armor

----

There you go. You can close the thread now

summary: blanket increase for structure, as it is useless for all intents and purposes, and is just an escape buffer. And then make the shield/armor total the same for all races, or we'll never hear the end of it.

thank you, thank you. I'll be hear all week, try the omgwtfbbqfishsticks.

---

Excellent suggestion. I knew you had the forc... uhm, the fishsticks in you

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Originally by: Vvari

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Giving someone duble amount of armor or shield doesnt make him twice as good in tanking.
It just makes the balte last twice as long, if u make reps and boosters twice as powerfull then you will be twice as good in tanking.

The people complaining about extra structure is usless should get more into small fleet batles or even 1 on 1. If you hit structure you can still repair or boost and keap this up for a while. givving you time to escape or do some more damage to the target.

So all now stop trolling before you tested it out and go to the test server.(doesnt apply to people who allready tested it ofc.)
----------------------------------------------------

Now for what ive seen I like the changes, they need some tweaking thoug. the idea of drunkenmaster seems like something close to a good solution.

I dont like the idea of not being able to repair in batle, it just is against the way how eve is now, and would unbalance so much. It would just put everyone in a ganking setup. with as many weapons and damage mods as possible. Would take away alot of debt in pvp.

About the mods (MOOstradamus) that sound like fun, would like Amarr to have a bonus that would convert all shield into cap thoug

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Originally by: Vvari

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Giving someone duble amount of armor or shield doesnt make him twice as good in tanking.
It just makes the balte last twice as long, if u make reps and boosters twice as powerfull then you will be twice as good in tanking.

The people complaining about extra structure is usless should get more into small fleet batles or even 1 on 1. If you hit structure you can still repair or boost and keap this up for a while. givving you time to escape or do some more damage to the target.

So all now stop trolling before you tested it out and go to the test server.(doesnt apply to people who allready tested it ofc.)
----------------------------------------------------

Now for what ive seen I like the changes, they need some tweaking thoug. the idea of drunkenmaster seems like something close to a good solution.

I dont like the idea of not being able to repair in batle, it just is against the way how eve is now, and would unbalance so much. It would just put everyone in a ganking setup. with as many weapons and damage mods as possible. Would take away alot of debt in pvp.

About the mods (MOOstradamus) that sound like fun, would like Amarr to have a bonus that would convert all shield into cap thoug

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Originally by: Alex Harumichi

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Originally by: drunkenmaster

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right...

the ships are already balanced against each other in terms of structure, with gall having more, min having less etc. as per RP.

So lets do a blanket structure increase to all races of 75-100% structure. (ie. the same increase in structure for all) after all, with all structural increases the same, gall will still have the most structure anyway.

now with the crap out of the way, onto the meat.

I think it should be a 150% increase to all races, split between shield and armour. like so:

Caldari
120% shield
30% armor

Gallente:
50% shield
100% armor

Amarr:
30% shield
120% armour

Minmatar:
75% shield
75% armor

---

I have to say I like this. A lot more than the current dev blog proposal.

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Originally by: Alex Harumichi

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Originally by: drunkenmaster

---

right...

the ships are already balanced against each other in terms of structure, with gall having more, min having less etc. as per RP.

So lets do a blanket structure increase to all races of 75-100% structure. (ie. the same increase in structure for all) after all, with all structural increases the same, gall will still have the most structure anyway.

now with the crap out of the way, onto the meat.

I think it should be a 150% increase to all races, split between shield and armour. like so:

Caldari
120% shield
30% armor

Gallente:
50% shield
100% armor

Amarr:
30% shield
120% armour

Minmatar:
75% shield
75% armor

---

I have to say I like this. A lot more than the current dev blog proposal.

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Originally by: Balgore

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Minmatar ships do shield tank, and that's what they were meant to do. They only armor tank because armor tanking is better at the moment and they have pretty much even mid/low slots to do either one. You can't possibly be saying that any ship with less than 6 mid slots cannot shield tank well...

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Originally by: Balgore

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Minmatar ships do shield tank, and that's what they were meant to do. They only armor tank because armor tanking is better at the moment and they have pretty much even mid/low slots to do either one. You can't possibly be saying that any ship with less than 6 mid slots cannot shield tank well...

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Originally by: Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa

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Edited by: Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa on 21/12/2004 19:08:17
Will there be structure hardeners soon aswell ?

Edit: And while we are at it.... natural Armour and Structure-recharge.... to balance things out even more.

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Originally by: Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa

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Edited by: Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa on 21/12/2004 19:08:17
Will there be structure hardeners soon aswell ?

Edit: And while we are at it.... natural Armour and Structure-recharge.... to balance things out even more.

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Originally by: Selim

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I think the consequences of this should be looked at.

Longer battles = Amarr win, lasers don't use any ammo.
Longer battles = Longer lasting cap/tank wins, Amarr

Shield tanking needs to be brought up a bit. Its okay on Caldari ships but its really ridiculous on Minmatar ships who don't have the CPU, medslots or cap to tank the shields.

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Originally by: Selim

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I think the consequences of this should be looked at.

Longer battles = Amarr win, lasers don't use any ammo.
Longer battles = Longer lasting cap/tank wins, Amarr

Shield tanking needs to be brought up a bit. Its okay on Caldari ships but its really ridiculous on Minmatar ships who don't have the CPU, medslots or cap to tank the shields.

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Originally by: Balgore

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Originally by: Nafri

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Originally by: Balgore

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Minmatar ships do shield tank, and that's what they were meant to do. They only armor tank because armor tanking is better at the moment and they have pretty much even mid/low slots to do either one. You can't possibly be saying that any ship with less than 6 mid slots cannot shield tank well...

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ohh please tell me your typhoon shield tank


and now, you cant shield tank anything with less then 6 slots for tanking

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Typhoon: no. Tempest: yes.

Please tell me how you can armor tank when you use 1400 howitzers and need to use at least 2 lows for reactor controls.

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Originally by: Balgore

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Originally by: Nafri

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Originally by: Balgore

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Minmatar ships do shield tank, and that's what they were meant to do. They only armor tank because armor tanking is better at the moment and they have pretty much even mid/low slots to do either one. You can't possibly be saying that any ship with less than 6 mid slots cannot shield tank well...

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ohh please tell me your typhoon shield tank


and now, you cant shield tank anything with less then 6 slots for tanking

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Typhoon: no. Tempest: yes.

Please tell me how you can armor tank when you use 1400 howitzers and need to use at least 2 lows for reactor controls.

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Originally by: theRaptor

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Originally by: Amon Evakrace

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is it me or has CCP made caldari ships big and bulky for no reason? 100% armor 200% strut boost for amarr and 100% shield 100% strut boost for caldari. Gee that makes a lot of sense . Caldari should get 100% shield 100% armor 100% strut, if not for the sake of balancing it against the amarrians then at least to make ship sizes logical by showing where their extra size lies.

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What are you talking about? I could fit 4-5 Ravens inside my mega, or two Apocs. Caldari ships especially at the BS scale are some of the smallest ships, look at scorpions they hardlly much bigger then a Caracal.

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Originally by: lollerskates

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Originally by: Nafri

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(Rofl, which idiot tanks his typhoon on shield )

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...a lot of people? especially when you cant spare 2k grid for an armor rep trying to do 1400's...

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Originally by: Grim Vandal

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Originally by: Joshua Calvert

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With HP being increased, won't setups be emphasizing on pure damage output rather than defense?

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SO true... this is the reason why this is a bad change...
BUT lets look at it closer... tbh it isnt the HPs amount fault but rather the

armor rep / shield booster

exactly this is it what makes higher range ammo pretty useless...
would YOU ever fit eg. a moa with 250mm rails and eg. iridium ammo for PVP???? everyone would laugh their ass off... now why is that????????

cuz the current way how tanking works SUCKS

its a dot race... nothing else...

I wrote this **** SEVERAL times in this thread ... but NONE seems to see it, or none seems to feel that way...

reason: cuz we are ****ing used to the game mechanics... yes this would be a radical change but for the better... at least many agree with the raw idea which is:

change the tanking system to:
mass amounts of HP
instead of
hp/rep each sec

and EXACLTY this is the reason why we need the HP change... BUT without a RADICAL change to shield boosters/armor reps I considder the currently proposed change as useless.


raw idea:
give something about 10x (1000%) hp bonus...
if this is done change shield tanking...
let the shield booster affect the shield recharge rate...
this could NOT be done due to one simple reason...
the shield recharge is different at different % amounts of shield... fastest at about 35%...
the problem right now...
you have eg. 2000 of 5000 shield HP = 40%
you get hit by 1000 dmg
1000 dmg of 5000 = 20%

there is NO buffer whatsoever... therefor it would be insane to let shield boosters affect shield recharge...
HOWEVER
lets take my 10x hp boost...
5000 x 10 = 50 000 hp

now: 20 000 of 50 000 hp = 40%
you get hit by 1000dmg
19 000 of 50 000 = 38 %

there ya go... THIS IS why I want a HP change... shield boosters could at last affect shield recharge... shield recharge is at last a valueable attriubute...
the shield recharge rate would be changed acccordingly... while a xl tech I shield booster should recharge about 80hp/sec AT 35% shield amount...

YES this is still a dot race... however a few combined hits will drop his shield from 35% to 30% where his shield recharge is lower... therefor you actually didnt even beat his "dot tanking" but you hit him once that hard that his % amount of shield dropped to where he cant keep up with the dmg anymore...

so far for shield tanking...

armor tanking??? huh this one is a hard nugget...
im not yet quite sure how to change it...
either give armor a natrual recharge rate as well... although something tells me this sucks...
another idea is to reduce the effectiveness of armor reps while you recive dmg... while you of course get as well 10x maybe even 15x armor HPs...
so under fire your armor rep has a penalty of 70% ... means eg. a large repairer repairs under fire insted of 600dmg each 15 secs only 180 dmg each 15 secs...
you cry NERF???
well considder the following:

apoc:
90 000 armor HP

instead of the armor reps you fit more hardeners... average resistance: 80%

lets take ONE blasterthron:
doing 450 dot
= 90 dot (minus resistance)

90 000 / 90 = 1000 secs = nearly 17 minutes...
though lets say the apocs home is in curse space... although he is attacking fountain space... 50 jumps away from home...
and this is without an armor rep ... you better have a friend with a remote armor rep with you


I already posted about problems with blockade runners... log off timers... aso... read them before you dare to answer!


now wish me luck to withstand the upcomming 8 months since I have to spend them in the army (austria sucks) ... and only coming home at weekends for the first few weeks...

anyway I for sure come back and I hope to enjoy this game in all its glory again...

now devs time is running... you have 8 months left

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Originally by: Lallante

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Few PvPers who actually look at the mechanics this will entail will support such a boost.

We already have engagements that last hours, but with the changes it will literally be a battle of tanking, and as such a small fleet could never take on a larger one (where hit and run is the key to success)

IMO it is PERFECT as it is, the main thing that could be changed would be to double or triple stucture and make it impossible to warp when in strucutre: Suddenly, structure has a meaning, and Pirates can actually ransom people.

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