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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.07.28 22:59:00 -
[1]
First let me make it clear--I really like that in Eve it's possible to spend months, even years, infiltrating and sabotaging your enemy's corps and alliances. I love the sandbox, I love the stories that come out of it.
My concern though, is that it's getting TOO EASY. People don't even bat an eye anymore when a major alliance gets disbanded by a spy. Remember the legends that were GHSC? And then when the Goons disbanded BoB, that was pretty kick-ass. But then Goons got disbanded too(for the lulz, no less). And now U'K. It's getting old and boring. One of the game's most prominent alliances disbanding due to infiltration or a traitor should be big news, it should be an event we can parade around the gaming community as an example of how awesome the sandbox of Eve is. It should be very possible, but it should take time, effort, and planning. It shouldn't be "oh look, another alliance dismantled by a spy."
Thoughts?
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2010.07.28 23:05:00 -
[2]
Just pointing out that Goons didn't fail because of a spy or metagaming. They failed because everyone at the top was AFK and forgot to pay the bills.
Your other two examples weren't because of infiltration. They were from disgruntled people who had power. They didn't get into those positions for the purpose of ruining those alliances. They just got fed up with it and decided to burn what they could when they left. Fairly typical human response really. Basically a bad break up and about as interesting.
Originally by: CCP Lemur THIS IS GOD: ... IF YOU HAVE ANY MORE REQUESTS I'M AVAILABLE SUNDAY FROM 10:30 TO 12:00 TO RECEIVE YOUR PRAYERS.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2010.07.29 00:18:00 -
[3]
Actually it was extremely lame when BOB was disbanded(and I was a BOB hater.)
The game is and apparently always was broken with respect to this.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Cat o'Ninetails
Caldari Rancer Defence League Eternal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.07.29 00:21:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Cat o''Ninetails on 29/07/2010 00:21:40 hi cat here
nce i had my corp stolen from me and turned into a pirate corp which i thoght was pretty bad tbh lol
e@ my corp used to actually be called rancer defence force
x
My Facebook! |
Ghaylenty
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Posted - 2010.07.29 00:29:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Ghaylenty on 29/07/2010 00:29:38 the thing about a spy dismantling an alliance or corp is it only happens when people are no longer really there for the alliance. the ease of simply rejoining a corp if it is disbanded is truly staggering. however, most people can't even be assed to do that. once they lose assets they get butthurt and join the next big thing on the horizon.
one could argue that if the desire was there, you could simply reform. damage aside, the only thing it is, is an inconvenience. but if you're getting upset over pixels, you should probably... not be. i actually fly amarr |
Ghoest
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Posted - 2010.07.29 00:55:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Ghaylenty [
one could argue that if the desire was there, you could simply reform. damage aside, the only thing it is, is an inconvenience. but if you're getting upset over pixels, you should probably... not be.
You dont get it. Maybe youre dumb.
EVE is a game that people play for challenge a sense of acheivement and enjoyment. When they find that either the game is broken or that the games design intentions are not at all what they had wanted, the players are unhappy and often feel like moving on.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Miriam Letisse
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Posted - 2010.07.29 03:56:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ghoest
You dont get it. Maybe youre dumb.
Dumb is word simple people use.
If an alliance gets disbanded it's either because their security was god-awful or someone was disgruntled, either way it's not that common.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.07.29 05:40:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 29/07/2010 05:43:34
Originally by: Miriam Letisse
Originally by: Ghoest
You dont get it. Maybe youre dumb.
Dumb is word simple people use.
If an alliance gets disbanded it's either because their security was god-awful or someone was disgruntled, either way it's not that common.
But it is already too common. That is the problem.
When the message is that what you have constructed with years of gaming has the consistency of a soap bubble rebuilding isn't easy.
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Pytria Le'Danness
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Posted - 2010.07.29 05:51:00 -
[9]
What is annoying me in this context is that the scopes don't match. On one hand you have a ton of alliance members who invest a lot of time and/or (game) money into keeping the alliance alive and kicking over literally years, on the other you have ONE SINGLE disgruntled member who can make all that work go to the waste bin with a single click of a button.
Anyone can be bought if enough money enters the table, and there is no way to protect your alliance against a (formerly) trusted executive who turns bad.A simple declaration of war that might have no consequence at all takes a vote and at least 24 hours, yet wasting the work of hundreds can be done in a drunken stupor. There should be some safeguards, some protections against a director who was bought out.
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Major Templar
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.07.29 06:01:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Pytria Le'Danness What is annoying me in this context is that the scopes don't match. On one hand you have a ton of alliance members who invest a lot of time and/or (game) money into keeping the alliance alive and kicking over literally years, on the other you have ONE SINGLE disgruntled member who can make all that work go to the waste bin with a single click of a button.
Anyone can be bought if enough money enters the table, and there is no way to protect your alliance against a (formerly) trusted executive who turns bad.A simple declaration of war that might have no consequence at all takes a vote and at least 24 hours, yet wasting the work of hundreds can be done in a drunken stupor. There should be some safeguards, some protections against a director who was bought out.
Usually though there is a reason to having someone so disgruntled to turn to this type of underhanded work. But either way, it's still stupid how easy it is now days to kick all the corps so fast and then dismantle the alliance. I also believe that there should be a 24 hour cool down just like there is for say, kicking someone out of the corp!?
Seriously CCP, it took me 24 hours to kick a KNOWN SPY out of one of my old corps. He shot 3 guys and then stole a ship and made a run for it. It took 24 hours of cool down to give him the boot but in one minute someone can destroy an alliance!? Hmm, seems a little weird.
Major Templar Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi |
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Cobalt Sixty
Caldari Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2010.07.29 07:04:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Aerilis First let me make it clear--I really like that in Eve it's possible to spend months, even years, infiltrating and sabotaging your enemy's corps and alliances. I love the sandbox, I love the stories that come out of it.
My concern though, is that it's getting TOO EASY. People don't even bat an eye anymore when a major alliance gets disbanded by a spy. Remember the legends that were GHSC? And then when the Goons disbanded BoB, that was pretty kick-ass. But then Goons got disbanded too(for the lulz, no less). And now U'K. It's getting old and boring. One of the game's most prominent alliances disbanding due to infiltration or a traitor should be big news, it should be an event we can parade around the gaming community as an example of how awesome the sandbox of Eve is. It should be very possible, but it should take time, effort, and planning. It shouldn't be "oh look, another alliance dismantled by a spy."
Thoughts?
1) Stop whining, when a corporation or alliance is decapitated, it isn't being done for your amusement or the amusement of non-EVE players - it is being done for the amusement of the person operating the guillotine. Furthermore, getting into position to trigger the fall of that blade isn't as easy as you seem to think it is, otherwise don't you think it'd happen much more often than it has?
2) Interesting fact, since you mention UK: The main mechanism by which UK was taken over were shares in the executor corp - shares that could have been safely tucked away by the CEO of said executor. Tarac Nor didn't even have a majority of the shares, his vote to become CEO could have been sunk by the other, majority share holder any time during the vote. In fact, for two days Tarac Nor tried to create more shares (the goal being to have 9001, moar lulz) to gain a majority but this didn't work because it seemed he needed the CEO role to confirm it in sanctionable actions. During that time, the CEO could have logged in and removed his Director roles. Finally, he just ran for CEO instead and took over directly.
If the CEO or the majority shareholder had been around to do their duties, it is most likely Tarac would have been caught and neutralized as a threat. They (the CEO and majority shareholder both) also ignored some very crucial advice found in green, here.
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Pesky LaRue
Minmatar The Magnificent Bastards
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Posted - 2010.07.29 07:15:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Major Templar Seriously CCP, it took me 24 hours to kick a KNOWN SPY out of one of my old corps. He shot 3 guys and then stole a ship and made a run for it. It took 24 hours of cool down to give him the boot but in one minute someone can destroy an alliance!? Hmm, seems a little weird.
Bingo. Takes 24 hours to do a bunch of things - like join an alliance or leave a corp - but you can dismantle an alliance in a heartbeat?
Not saying that spying et al isn't a legitimate tactic against your enemies, but this needs to be looked at. .
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.07.29 07:36:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Pesky LaRue
Originally by: Major Templar Seriously CCP, it took me 24 hours to kick a KNOWN SPY out of one of my old corps. He shot 3 guys and then stole a ship and made a run for it. It took 24 hours of cool down to give him the boot but in one minute someone can destroy an alliance!? Hmm, seems a little weird.
Bingo. Takes 24 hours to do a bunch of things - like join an alliance or leave a corp - but you can dismantle an alliance in a heartbeat?
Not saying that spying et al isn't a legitimate tactic against your enemies, but this needs to be looked at.
The only people who need to look at their security are the corps/alliences that have poor to no security in the first place. It is not CCP's falt people invited that stranger and gave them access to sensitive places.
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gallchecker
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Posted - 2010.07.29 09:07:00 -
[14]
Yes indeed all this covert stuff!
I recently started up a covert char in a corp, it wasnt easy either! I mean I had to buy a 2nd account!
Bask in my internet stealth!
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.29 09:20:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Major Templar
Usually though there is a reason to having someone so disgruntled to turn to this type of underhanded work. But either way, it's still stupid how easy it is now days to kick all the corps so fast and then dismantle the alliance. I also believe that there should be a 24 hour cool down just like there is for say, kicking someone out of the corp!?
Seriously CCP, it took me 24 hours to kick a KNOWN SPY out of one of my old corps. He shot 3 guys and then stole a ship and made a run for it. It took 24 hours of cool down to give him the boot but in one minute someone can destroy an alliance!? Hmm, seems a little weird.
This.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.07.29 09:47:00 -
[16]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Pesky LaRue
Originally by: Major Templar Seriously CCP, it took me 24 hours to kick a KNOWN SPY out of one of my old corps. He shot 3 guys and then stole a ship and made a run for it. It took 24 hours of cool down to give him the boot but in one minute someone can destroy an alliance!? Hmm, seems a little weird.
Bingo. Takes 24 hours to do a bunch of things - like join an alliance or leave a corp - but you can dismantle an alliance in a heartbeat?
Not saying that spying et al isn't a legitimate tactic against your enemies, but this needs to be looked at.
The only people who need to look at their security are the corps/alliences that have poor to no security in the first place. It is not CCP's falt people invited that stranger and gave them access to sensitive places.
You are correct that it's not CCP's responsibility who you hire and trust, but it would still be a good thing to have some safeguard of some kind. Problem is not to make it to safe. I was in a corp that got hit by the GHSC, they guy started in the bottom of the corp, spend the next 10 months climbing the latter and putting in a lot of work. When he got the power he wanted, he killed our CEO and robbed us blind. This is the way it should be, tons of work for hitting the corp hard. If the stories about BoB is similar, that a guy spend months or years getting the needed authority, then it is as it should be. Expanding it with a safeguard could mean it's impossible to hurt an alliance at all from within, and we should not be safe anywhere . So the safeguard should force the spies/traitors to find other ways to hurt an enemy alliance. Offline a cyno jammer minutes before an assault would begin, giving passswords for POS's and giving the location of the corp capital constructions site. In my opinion, that is a more "correct" way to do it.
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CCP Applebabe
Amarr C C P C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.29 10:13:00 -
[17]
Moved from EVE General Discussion.
Applebabe Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us |
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Major Templar
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.07.29 10:18:00 -
[18]
I'd love to get a response on this from CCP if they ever plan to fix the problem or at least make things more uniform with one another. Either make it where you have a 24 hour cool down when kicking a corp or just remove the whole 24 cool down from everything and make Eve completely stupid. Either way CCP NEEDS TO DO SOMETHING!!! Your members are not going to sit in crap all day in crap while you give us something shiny to take our minds off of the real issues at hand. By the way, I really think this should have stayed in General Forums, it's not really a CAOD thing as much as it is a "This stuff needs to get fixed soon" thing.
Major Templar Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi |
Cobalt Sixty
Caldari Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.07.29 11:07:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Major Templar By the way, I really think this should have stayed in General Forums, it's not really a CAOD thing as much as it is a "This stuff needs to get fixed soon" thing.
Try here or even here.
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Sarius Deteis
Caldari The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.29 12:15:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Major Templar I'd love to get a response on this from CCP if they ever plan to fix the problem or at least make things more uniform with one another. Either make it where you have a 24 hour cool down when kicking a corp or just remove the whole 24 cool down from everything and make Eve completely stupid. Either way CCP NEEDS TO DO SOMETHING!!! Your members are not going to sit in crap all day in crap while you give us something shiny to take our minds off of the real issues at hand. By the way, I really think this should have stayed in General Forums, it's not really a CAOD thing as much as it is a "This stuff needs to get fixed soon" thing.
You are all wrong. Fix the lag before the game mechanics. If I can not move then what do I care what alliance I am in?
Amarr Victory
WTB 8 lowslot Inty |
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Spurty
Caldari D00M. Excessum Messor
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Posted - 2010.07.29 13:02:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Major Templar CCP NEEDS TO DO SOMETHING!!!
I predict CCP will jump to it!
Here's their plan:
- Change in the hue on the afterburners of all ships - some new meta 0 stuff being created - new 'bend it like beckham' routes for PI structures - whizzy video telling us about something completely different
All this too look forward to in the next 16 months
;p
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Major Templar
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.07.29 13:15:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Sarius Deteis You are all wrong. Fix the lag before the game mechanics. If I can not move then what do I care what alliance I am in?
Well the day that lag is gone is the day that TQ has finally shut off and Eve is no more. Lag will always be there but honestly my complaint is simply that CCP needs to stop giving us shiny crap and start giving us fixes to all the shiny crap they already gave us. Oh and remove PI, it sucks, hardcore.
Originally by: Spurty I predict CCP will jump to it!
Here's their plan:
- Change in the hue on the afterburners of all ships - some new meta 0 stuff being created - new 'bend it like beckham' routes for PI structures - whizzy video telling us about something completely different
All this too look forward to in the next 16 months
;p
Oh and don't forget that they will also make this awesome looking trailer that looks like a movie that took them 4 months to make and is in no way how Eve looks, is played, or in any way related. I think I can remember back to Dominion and tell you flat out that was an awesome video but really, Eve does not look like that. Also, don't forget about the Jukebox, it's going to have a drop down menu and the ability to feed right out of your local radio stations, because if lag wasn't bad enough, lets just make sure that Eve sounds great while you spend the next 4 hours cycling your guns.
Major Templar Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi |
Cribb
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.07.29 14:29:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Cobalt Sixty
Then again, we're talking about the same people who failed for almost twenty four hours to remove someone from their internal forums who'd repeatedly posted a lulz PDF explaining the downfall of UK to UK, with the posting account still being used by a person who'd left UK two months prior to current events and was based on a character that had been sold on months ago - with UK being informed.
Nice misinformation here. This was not posted on our internal boards but in the public section. ------- When in doubt, play loud
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Borza Slavak
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.07.29 15:23:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Cobalt Sixty Edited by: Cobalt Sixty on 29/07/2010 07:34:13
Originally by: Aerilis First let me make it clear--I really like that in Eve it's possible to spend months, even years, infiltrating and sabotaging your enemy's corps and alliances. I love the sandbox, I love the stories that come out of it.
My concern though, is that it's getting TOO EASY. People don't even bat an eye anymore when a major alliance gets disbanded by a spy. Remember the legends that were GHSC? And then when the Goons disbanded BoB, that was pretty kick-ass. But then Goons got disbanded too(for the lulz, no less). And now U'K. It's getting old and boring. One of the game's most prominent alliances disbanding due to infiltration or a traitor should be big news, it should be an event we can parade around the gaming community as an example of how awesome the sandbox of Eve is. It should be very possible, but it should take time, effort, and planning. It shouldn't be "oh look, another alliance dismantled by a spy."
Thoughts?
Thoughts:
1) Stop whining, when a corporation or alliance is decapitated, it isn't being done for your amusement or the amusement of non-EVE players - it is being done for the amusement of the person operating the guillotine. Furthermore, getting into position to trigger the fall of that blade isn't as easy as you seem to think it is, otherwise don't you think it'd happen much more often than it has?
2) Interesting fact, since you mention UK: The main mechanism by which UK was taken over were shares in the executor corp - shares that could have been safely tucked away by the CEO of said executor. Tarac Nor didn't even have a majority of the shares, his vote to become CEO could have been sunk by the other, majority share holder any time during the vote. In fact, for two days Tarac Nor tried to create more shares (the goal being to have 9001, moar lulz) to gain a majority but this didn't work because it seemed he needed the CEO role to confirm it in sanctionable actions. During that time, the CEO could have logged in and removed his Director roles. Finally, he just ran for CEO instead and took over directly.
If the CEO or the majority shareholder had been around to do their duties, it is most likely Tarac would have been caught and neutralized as a threat. They (the CEO and majority shareholder both) also ignored some very crucial advice found in green, here.
He intentionally had his coup on a weekend when he knew the CEO was on a business trip.
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FOEHAMMER006
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.07.29 15:50:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Cobalt Sixty
Originally by: Major Templar By the way, I really think this should have stayed in General Forums, it's not really a CAOD thing as much as it is a "This stuff needs to get fixed soon" thing.
Try here or even here.
Silly forum mods.
There is no such thing as good spy. --------------------------------
my posts reflect me. g0t w34d?
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Cobalt Sixty
Caldari Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.07.29 17:17:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Cobalt Sixty on 29/07/2010 17:19:41
Originally by: Cribb
Originally by: Cobalt Sixty
Then again, we're talking about the same people who failed for almost twenty four hours to remove someone from their internal forums who'd repeatedly posted a lulz PDF explaining the downfall of UK to UK, with the posting account still being used by a person who'd left UK two months prior to current events and was based on a character that had been sold on months ago - with UK being informed.
Nice misinformation here. This was not posted on our internal boards but in the public section.
Nice misinformation there.
I'm pretty certain the lulz PDF was first posted in the general section marked "private" - in the first thread where suddenly ex-UK members were frantically asking each other why the sky had fallen on them. I know that picture is taken from the thread where ex-UK were all deciding what to call themselves. I admit that I don't know if that was in the same "private" section, or not.
Not that it exactly matters, as when I said internal I meant that one had to be a member of a UK corporation to see the contents. Of course, if you meant internal-internal, the kind Head Diplomats of the alliance and executor corp. directors could see, well...
Originally by: Borza Slavak He intentionally had his coup on a weekend when he knew the CEO was on a business trip.
Why does it matter when he took over? Was he supposed to ask the CEO to reschedule their trip?
Though actually, he started his coup before the weekend. It didn't exactly work out though (two days spent trying to create more shares) but luckily nobody noticed until it was too late. Don't forget the shares that let him do it being left in the wallet or the other (also the majority) shareholder being even more AFG than the CEO.
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MukkBarovian
Caldari The Hull Miners Union
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Posted - 2010.07.30 19:34:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Borza Slavak He intentionally had his coup on a weekend when he knew the CEO was on a business trip.
CCP - Establishing game mechanics that penalize you for having a real life.
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Anduin Williams
Amarr Total Mayhem. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.07.30 19:52:00 -
[28]
I too want to whine about spais....
*pouts*.. they took my dump truck.. and and... I WANT IT BACK!!
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Razzor Death
Gallente Antares Shipyards Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.07.30 19:57:00 -
[29]
**** happens
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Spectre80
Caldari The Knights Templar R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.07.31 10:57:00 -
[30]
spys and 'disgruntled' people who steal stuff and grief ex corps are lowest lifeform there is in eve. and yea i pretty much say if u do that in eve i wouldnt trust you anything in rl either.
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