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To people that want to remove T2 BPOs : give a GOOD reason why

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Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.29 09:25:00 - [751] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 29/12/2010 09:26:37 Originally by: Stella SGP Yea there should be only 2 or 3 of these shiny buttplugs left in the game. Just so you know, you aren't arguing the same thing though. Imperial Geddons have to be risked to be used. T2 BPOs don't. ;-) -Liang Ed: Also, the Neutron Blaster Cannon II BPO feels like a manly BPO to have. It's no PVE wimpy girly module. No, I would be contributing directly to people dying. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Stella SGP The Kimotoro Initiative	Posted - 2010.12.29 09:36:00 - [752] Originally by: Liang Nuren Just so you know, you aren't arguing the same thing though. Imperial Geddons have to be risked to be used. T2 BPOs don't. ;-) Its not the same thing, thats only for him asking others to do silly things.
Ramla Sabah	Posted - 2010.12.29 11:37:00 - [753] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 29/12/2010 09:26:37 Ed: Also, Blaster Cannon feels like a manly to have. It's no wimpy girly module. I would be contributing directly to people dying. This was how I saw your post. Now go and help those poor guys =)
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.12.29 12:06:00 - [754] I see we have reached denial/partial acceptance phase liang. Excellent. Dance for me now puppet...DANCE! Well anyway this is how every tech 2 bpo debate fizzles till the next one 3-6 months from now. Just so everyone knows, nothing cool was added in this round of talks. Nor was anything added back during the summer during that round. Nor anything at all ever except during the initial debates around invention release.
Anni Vest	Posted - 2010.12.29 14:12:00 - [755] I vote for removing Capital Ships, expensive T1 Ship BPOs, Towers, Outposts, rare Ships, costly skills and anything else that a new player cant afford after 3 days of joining EVE. Then we rename EVE to Space of Warcraft and everyone will be happy right?
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.12.29 14:49:00 - [756] Edited by: Akita T on 29/12/2010 14:56:04 Originally by: Sig Sour failure to quote argument + "I don't believe your claim that you are not a T2 BPO owner" + more drivel failing to answer to non-quoted argument And I believe you that you have trouble comprehending that much, since apparently you also have trouble comprehending anything beyond the most basic boolean logic to a point you can even begin to answer to such an argument. Even if I was a T2 BPO owner (which I am not), that would not alter anything I have said. If you are willing to pay for the services of a reasonably respected auditor to which I would provide all necessary full API keys to check whether I am in possession of any T2 BPOs, be my guest. But then again, I don't expect you to, because you would never put anything valuable anywhere near where your mouth seems to be, and you most likely would claim that I just managed to hide the T2 BPOs somewhere really good or some other such nonsense (in spite of the fact quite a bit of my finances ARE already public, and they were made public voluntarily, AFTER I paid back my bond investors with interest). Meanwhile, feel free to keep living in a world where you only have the whitest white and the blackest black, with absolutely nothing in between, with all people opposed to your views in any possible way being evil bastards out to destroy the world or something. Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Stella SGP Liang, your starting to talk Gibberish in sell forum. Was the math too hard for you? Or you can't stand losing an argument? No, the math most assuredly wasn't too hard for me. You give me 10B ISK and I'll post it for you. :) I'm also willing to accept a T2 BPO. They're worthless though. But it'd be cool to have a novelty item. You know. :) You might try to be completely sarcastic about it, but you're actually abandoning one of the few strongholds you might have had a chance in at least half-heartedly cling onto : the issue of T2 BPO price vs the issue of a moral high ground. You just basically openly admitted that amount of ISK needed to get them is the only thing stopping you from owning a lot of them and "having a golden aimbot wallhack godmode antiinvention monopoly of evil" or something to that extent, since, hey, they're totally not worth as much as people try to (and do) charge for them (and end up getting). You can't keep the moral high ground of claiming ISK cost of a T2 BPO is not an issue and that T2 BPO ownership is unfair when it's only your unwillingness to pay the associated cost that's stopping you from being an owner yourself. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts _
Sinuous Grace	Posted - 2010.12.29 15:08:00 - [757] Originally by: Anni Vest I vote for removing Capital Ships, expensive T1 Ship BPOs, Towers, Outposts, rare Ships, costly skills and anything else that a new player cant afford after 3 days of joining EVE. Then we rename EVE to Space of Warcraft and everyone will be happy right? Lol. This is good stuff. But you cant remove it, you must give it to those that DONT deserve it. Quote: Even if I was a T2 BPO owner (which I am not), that would not alter anything I have said. You can say this all you want but if you have never experienced one then how can you judge it. That's like telling me you hate hot dogs when you have never tried one. Your logic is the fail. Move along beggers and whiners.
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.12.29 15:42:00 - [758] Liang shared the results of his research with me. Thanks Liang! You guys are totally correct, T2 BPOs are totally because and should stay in the game forever. WTS: Capital BPO's fully researched and a swath of faction fit faction BS and marauders. You name it, its for sale.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.12.29 15:44:00 - [759] Edited by: Akita T on 29/12/2010 15:46:01 Originally by: Sinuous Grace Quote: Even if I was a T2 BPO owner (which I am not), that would not alter anything I have said. You can say this all you want but if you have never experienced one then how can you judge it. That's like telling me you hate hot dogs when you have never tried one. Your logic is the fail. Move along beggers and whiners. Actually, if you want a more accurate analogy... it would be me telling you I don't want to even try eating any hot dogs for personal reasons, while I refuse to contribute in a legislative process that would outlaw their cheap production by large companies even if the product would be practically identical from both a chemical and visual standpoint to hand-manufactured ones in small mom-and-pop businesses. A financial investment is not so much a matter of taste, not always anyway, but it's always a matter of cold, hard numbers. You don't need to know how good the employees of a small business feel about their time at their job (other than being aware of disgruntlement which could lead to potential vacancies) NOR do you need to become a worker there first yourself (why the bloody hell would you, this is not an uplifting comedy about working class heroes) to know if the company is worth purchasing for your portfolio or something to that extent, you only need to see their financial statements (and anything else you might see or experience is very unlikely to sway the opinion you get from those financial statements much). Or, to use a page from your playbook and tweak your already inaccurate "hot dog" analogy, I don't need to like or dislike hot dogs, I don't even need to know how they taste (although it might help a little bit, but then again, that's what polling and consulting companies are for) to know whether to buy out a hot dog manufacturer, expand or downsize it, open up new distribution centers or close them down, and so on and so forth. Originally by: Sig Sour Liang shared the results of his research with me. Thanks Liang! You guys are totally correct, T2 BPOs are totally because and should stay in the game forever. WTS: Capital BPO's fully researched and a swath of faction fit faction BS and marauders. You name it, its for sale. To use Liang's satirical approach : I'll buy all of those BPOs at 1/3 of NPC price, thank you very much. Hey, we know they're totally worthless, right ? _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts _
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.12.29 15:55:00 - [760] Originally by: Akita T To use Liang's satirical approach : I'll buy all of those BPOs at 1/3 of NPC price, thank you very much. Hey, we know they're totally worthless, right ? What? No I'm on the same side as you now. T2 BPOs are fine. No satire involved. If you are offering to buy my BPO's you can pick them up in the free market using contracts as they are listed in Jita.

Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.12.29 16:08:00 - [761] Fine. Whatever you say. I claim absolute victory then. I also expect you to be in shooting down any future "T2 BPOs are bad" arguments that might ever pop up I was soooo totally NOT* in any way shape or form sarcastic at some particular point in there, by the way. Really, probably.* _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts _
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.12.29 16:30:00 - [762] You most likely will. The fact is I stand by everything I said about them. However as I said before in some post somewhere, there is no shortage of stupid in this world. So as 90-whatever % of the players don't see the actual power in T2 BPOs, they will never complain. Then there are those who simply fear change and will defend them because they are afraid of the unknown. So while Liang and I were sitting here looking out to defend the 90-whatever % of players that don't have a T2 BPO, the fact is we may as well join the 'guy with the golden gun and aimbot' team because the 90-whatever % are too stupid and lazy to do anything about it. The result of the T2 BPO research that has Liang & I liquidating right now; the only risk in them is that CCP changes them, the complete cheater hax part of them was not even mentioned in this thread and... :X - will probably be revealed someday in some document somewhere that sends CCP into fixing them like what happened with deep safes. Till then, I'm going to exploit the crap out of it.
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.29 16:43:00 - [763] Originally by: Sig Sour Originally by: Shai 'Hulud I'm quite positive the "cost" Akita is referring to is the opportunity cost and/or the cost of purchasing the print to begin with. By your logic, you should have no problem buying an EMP S BPO from me for say, 200b? When you buy a T2 BPO, it is an investment. Unless you are really bad at this game there is no cost when investing into a T2 BPO. Opportunity cost is a hypothetical standpoint and only vaguely relevant to the game balance issue at hand. Where did you make the jump to 200b ISK EMP s BPOs? I'm not sure how you think there is "no cost" investing in a T2 BPO. If you are referring to the fact that that capital investment is simply held in the continuing value of the print, such could be said of ANY investment. I jumped to the 200b EMP S print because if you think that the "cost" of something is irrelevant, that only its profitability matters, then you should have no problem buying any BPO from me for any price I wish.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.29 16:51:00 - [764] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 29/12/2010 16:52:17 Originally by: Sig Sour The result of the T2 BPO research that has Liang & I liquidating right now This is true. I thought for sure he rage quit last night when I told him I was liquidating almost all my assets. Quote: I also expect you to be in shooting down any future "T2 BPOs are bad" arguments that might ever pop up They're fine. Really. They make paltry amounts of ISK per month and cost BILLIONS to buy. THEY'RE FINE. Totally worthless except for curiosity novelty items. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.29 16:55:00 - [765] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 29/12/2010 16:56:32 Originally by: Akita T You just basically openly admitted that amount of ISK needed to get them is the only thing stopping you Akita, do you even comprehend the number of pimped out faction mission ships I have? I've spent a lot of ISK trying to find the perfect way to mission. This neglects my own personal PVP battleship and capital fleets. ISK has not been a problem for me for a long, long time. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:12:00 - [766] Edited by: Sig Sour on 29/12/2010 17:12:47 Originally by: Moron I'm not sure how you think there is "no cost" investing in a T2 BPO. If you are referring to the fact that that capital investment is simply held in the continuing value of the print, such could be said of ANY investment. I jumped to the 200b EMP S print because if you think that the "cost" of something is irrelevant, that only its profitability matters, then you should have no problem buying any BPO from me for any price I wish. No, you misunderstand. If you buy something for 1b, and sell it for 1b, there is no "cost" to using it. If you buy it for 1b and sell it for 900m, then there is 100m cost involved. If you buy something for 1b and sell it for 1.1b, there is a -100m cost involved (called profit). There is no cost in a T2 BPO investment, unless you are stupid.
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:20:00 - [767] Originally by: Sig Sour No, you misunderstand. If you buy something for 1b, and sell it for 1b, there is no "cost" to using it. If you buy it for 1b and sell it for 900m, then there is 100m cost involved. If you buy something for 1b and sell it for 1.1b, there is a -100m cost involved (called profit). There is no cost in a T2 BPO investment, unless you are stupid. What if the item you invested in drops drastically in usage (and price)? I will openly admit to losing 10b isk on a T2 print I bought a few years ago... it happens. Also, I understand very well what you say there... but such could be said of nearly any investment in the game. If I decide I want to trade in jump freighters, any jump freighter I buy the "cost" is simply transferred to asset wealth. Unless maybe you are dumb enough to invest in player banks etc.
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:22:00 - [768] Also, I'm aware that my 200b "X" print is stretching it, but you were making the argument that the cost didn't matter AT ALL... which is simply false.
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:27:00 - [769] I didn't say cost was irrelevant. I said there is no cost to T2 BPOs unless you are stupid. You lost 10b with a T2 print, so...
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:32:00 - [770] You have to take the losses with the gains m8... didn't say I'm hurting for isk I don't think of myself, or anyone else, as stupid just because we can't predict the future 100% accurately. Truth is that there is risk involved in T2 BPO investment, much more so than many other investment vehicles.

Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:36:00 - [771] Originally by: Shai 'Hulud Truth is that there is risk involved in T2 BPO investment, much more so than many other investment vehicles. The only risk in them is that CCP changes the rules.
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:44:00 - [772] Or, that the item they make will become less used. It happens nearly every major patch that a type of print is either buffed or nerfed, indirectly.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.29 17:53:00 - [773] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 29/12/2010 17:54:33 Nevermind. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -
Shai 'Hulud Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.12.29 18:21:00 - [774] For example, look at the change in profitability for a print like the Hornet II BPO over the last year. The rise in the cost of robotics, due to planetary interaction, has hit a print like this proportionally very hard, changing profit per drone from 50-60k each to 35-40k each. This translates into about a 30% loss in profitability. Further, this translates into a lower value for the print itself (at least proportionally). Successful investment in T2 BPO's requires more than just owning any print.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.12.29 19:31:00 - [775] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Akita T You just basically openly admitted that amount of ISK needed to get them is the only thing stopping you Akita, do you even comprehend the number of pimped out faction mission ships I have? I've spent a lot of ISK trying to find the perfect way to mission. This neglects my own personal battleship, capital ship, and PVP faction ship fleets. ISK has not been a problem for me for a long, long time. I can not "comprehend" something that was never stated before in a place where I would look for it. If what you say is correct and completely honest, and you do indeed have the capability of accumulating the necessary funds to launch yourself into T2 BPO ownership from liquidating some assets you hardly ever used at full capacity (or, dunno, maybe you DID use them heavily, but only one or maybe at most two at a time with however many you might have had just sitting there doing nothing), then by all means, congratulations of the wisest choice you have made so far. I am looking forward to your feedback on the number of formerly-your-opinion-nearly-impossible-to-obtain-by-a-regular-person T2 BPOs and the tales of your industrial revenue and so on and so forth. You know, just as a curiosity _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts _
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.12.29 20:03:00 - [776] Originally by: Akita T Yes, there is a "cost" to using a 1 bil ISK item even if you do manage to sell it at 1 bil ISK _OR_MORE_ later on. Opportunity cost related. Stuff you COULD have done with those 1 bil ISK that would bring you more ISK than whatever it is you have done. You just have to bring in a hypothetical standpoint with ∞ situations that could be presented by either side to argue weather or not one is better than the other... So, since this argument is over and T2 originals are here to stay forever because and you need someone to talk to, what situation would you like to present first? Maybe you should start to tackle the moon goo issue instead.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.12.29 20:25:00 - [777] Originally by: Sig Sour You just have to bring in a hypothetical standpoint with ∞ situations that could be presented by either side to argue weather or not one is better than the other. Yes, I had. Quote: So, since this argument is over and T2 originals are here to stay forever The argument is never over. Every couple of months or so, somebody else gets the bright idea that they know better and that T2 BPOs are the absolutely one greatest scourge of reality that need to be eliminated. Quote: because and you need someone to talk to, what situation would you like to present first? Maybe you should start to tackle the moon goo issue instead. Been there, done that, made a profit. I'd rather go read a book instead now. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts _
Sig Sour	Posted - 2010.12.29 20:44:00 - [778] Originally by: Akita T Every couple of months or so, somebody else gets the bright idea that they know better and that T2 BPOs are the absolutely one greatest scourge of reality that need to be eliminated. They are and should be, but won't be.
oniplE MeMento.	Posted - 2010.12.29 22:26:00 - [779] I'm definitely against removing T2 BPO's, but i'd love to see a new, improved T2 lottery system. More T2 BPO's will increase T2 manufacturing competition, which is great. The only argument against this is that Invention will lose its use in the long run, unless it is somehow tweaked to take on a new role (perhaps copying T2 BPO's through invention). (oh, ofcourse T2 BPO owners won't like this since it will devalue their BPO's. But i guess that is an argument based on greed, not unlike the 'spite and envy' arguments that suggest removing T2 BPO's). x
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.12.29 23:18:00 - [780] Originally by: oniplE (oh, ofcourse T2 BPO owners won't like this since it will devalue their BPO's. But i guess that is an argument based on greed, not unlike the 'spite and envy' arguments that suggest removing T2 BPO's). It already takes YEARS to repay the cost of a T2 BPO. They're really vastly overpriced for what they do. There are TONS of better investments. Like doing PI and making robotics. Go, go! 2B/month doing PI coming right up if you get on it quick! :) -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died -



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