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Carniflex
StarHunt
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.19 09:45:00 -
[1]
I CHALLENGE YOU TO :
A) FIND A GOOD REASON WHY T2 BPOs MUST BE REMOVED
B) DETERMINE A FAIR SYSTEM FOR THEIR REMOVAL
C) ARGUE WHY THE RESULTING SITUATION WOULD BE BETTER OVERALL THAN THE CURRENT ONE.
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A) Artificial entry barrier. EVE is supposed to be a sandbox - if he can do it so can I. In the case of T2 BPO's this is not so tough. One can not get one not for love nor money if the one holding it is unwilling to give up his.
Unlike unique ships however using one does not put it at risk.
The T2 BPO's are line drawn across cosmos between those that 'have' and those that 'have not'. Those that have not can not cross that line within ingame mechanics. Well other than market on assumption that one of those that 'have' is willing to give up his place across the line. Moons can be taken with force, unique ships can (and will) die if one uses the advantage granted by those. T2 BPO just sits in the only safe place there is in EVE inside station.
My own crusade against the T2 BPO's is inability to believe that their distribution system was influence free. With all the various scandals that have happened with that system one believing that there is nothing more hidden behind the scenes must be rather naive in my opinion. T20, Expanded Cargo hold scandal, Dyspo printing and using T2 BPO's to 'scam' the isk out to 'unassosiated' alts, RMT and T2 BPO's to name few that pop up from the top of my head. I'm confident that with some google-fu few more scandals can be added to the list.
B) Fairest system would be forcing T2 BPO production out of stations into EVE environment where using one puts it at risk. If one would need to use POS for producing from a T2 BPO they would die out eventually as 'stuff' would happen to those.
Failing that next best thing is just outright removal and replacing them with max run BPC's.
Failing that as well last thing left is making them available through ingame mechanics other than buying from other player. It would obsolete invention.
C) "Many exploits were removed EVE making universe better place for all" - as they say in patch notes usually. Overall the effect on EVE economy would be negligible. Invention would be as profitable as it is currently - few low demand items would increase in price a bit to the point it's profitable to invent them and thats about it. Being low demand / useless items average player would probably not even notice that T2 BPO's have been removed. EVE would be more sandbox though.
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Carniflex
StarHunt
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.19 12:03:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Venkul Mul
Carniflex why you feel to mix 1 real T2 BPO distribution scandal (T20) with a lot of stuff that has nothing to do with that? your argument is so weak?
Even Kugu, stirring the T20 incident for all that it was worth and searching in every corner possible, included CCP internal logs AFAIK, was incapable of finding any other shenanigans about the T2 BPO lottery.
Instead of being driven by your "rightful indignation" try to control it and to think with a clear mind.
Wheres smoke theres flames, right ? T20 was just the one that was dragged out to light kicking and screaming. Then again what he did was just outright dumb way of sending a T2 BPO for a 'proper target'. Considering that the lottery system was not a transparent way of doing it I find it hard to believe that it was influence free considering the proven instance of the tampering with the system. There is a lot more ways to 'play the system' than just outright spawning those items. Right information to the right people would be almost impossible to catch and would increase the probability of getting their share by them just knowing exactly how the system works. I'm also not quite convinced that even after T20 they would have been able to catch all the database manipulations involving T2 BPO's considering how often the 'logs show nothing' - little nudge here or there for this particular agent getting the T2 BPO to hand out or little nudge for T2 BPO to fall towards particular field of research for example.
The rest of my doubts are ofc just based on the fact that T2 BPO's have been a great way to move immense amounts of ingame value in compact form long before there were motherships and titans in game and they were plentiful enough to be used for 'scamming' isk out of the accounts soon-to-be-banned. I'm sure there are still some people out there who got theirs in honest way, but for me the system has been tainted and I look upon every owner of T2 BPO with suspicion, wondering if they have used some cheat to get theirs.
In addition to being ofc obviously butthurt about not winning my share in the lottery regardless of putting very significant effort (for me) into lottery in the few first years of my EVE career. Not even a crappy ammo one.
Bottom line in my argument is that it is not a rational thing but more of a emotional thing with all those things mixsed in. There are ofc some rational arguments as well in the mix but my main emotion when looking at T2 BPO's is suspicion. They are tainted in my eyes. I still, every time I cancel an account state existence of T2 BPO's as main reason for that as they are one of the biggest things rubbing me in a wrong way in EVE. Perhaps one day my voice makes it thru to CCP - or I lose hope that CCP will do anything about them and I'll have to move on to pastures greener.
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Carniflex
StarHunt
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.19 15:53:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Kuranei
Edited by: Kuranei on 19/12/2010 15:32:59
TheCommand ship market. Explain to me how inventing in this particular market is even remotely competitive. This market is controlled by the bpo owners completely. Its a monopoly which is ok? So its ok to have a class of ship that inventors cant invent,because they will never beable to compete with the Me of a T2 boo holder. Even if i wanted invent and build the ship for my self i still would almost be forced to buy it, because the Me from invention still can't compare in building cost to that of a researched BPO? And this ok why?
Its like having those huge alliances in null sec control and manipulate moon goo in null sec, the difference is that they can be forcibly removed by the players, which is not the case controlling the market through said bpo.
Let me answer with a question. Why would you want to participate in command ships market, as an inventor, if there is no profit to be made ? Inventor is free to move around, make things that make a profit instead of going for command ships and not making a profit. With the skills and materials (other than BPC) needed for participation in command ships market you can do other products that do net a profit for an inventor.
There is no demand left after the BPO's take their share meaning that they are already making smaller profit per item than they would be getting in 'healthy' item where demand exceeds the T2 BPO production ability and price is dictated by the invention cost.
Removing the T2 BPO will not make the market magically grant you huge bonuses on items that are not currently worth inventing. The price would rise to the point it is cost effective to invent and produce those items but the profit margins would remain thin even then bcos of the relatively low demand of the items.
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Carniflex
StarHunt
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.20 08:23:00 -
[4]
When you operate to remove cancer then some healthy tissue goes as well. It is necessary sacrifice for the survival of the organism however.
In my eyes T2 BPO's are a cancer in the system that is EVE. So for me their removal is justified and rational thing. It is understandable that many of those with a T2 BPO lament against the idea. Well many people lamented against the great nano nerf, warp to zero and many other necessary changes as well, yet they made EVE a better game.
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Carniflex
StarHunt
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.21 11:43:00 -
[5]
Liang has covered my standpoint on T2 BPO's in far more clearer wording than I myself have been able so far.
In a nutshell "Make them available or take them out". I myself personally would prefer the taking them out and perhaps small boost to invention, as making them available will kill the invention over time, that in turn will kill few of the miniprofessions that feed the invention with some of the needed materials.
As far as rational and nonrational arguments, grasping for every straw and dancing on slippery slopes goes, at this point this is game design question. As a players of the game all we can do in this issue is agree to disagree at best. What I really hope for is that devs take a good look at the T2 BPO's and then make a decision if they will be kept or they will not, depending on their vision of EVE economy/industry future. Those who really really dont like them can then ragequit and those who have them can rejoice and most would not care either way.
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Carniflex
StarHunt
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.21 14:12:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Akita T
They said they will take another look at T2 BPOs roughly a year after invention was introduced and take action if they feel it would be necessary.
Needless to say, more than one year has passed, and no action was taken.
CCP has promised to take a second look on quite many things that has not happened for years and years at end - Black Ops, electronic attack frigates, ability to use POS labs for copy cross corporation, etc,etc. The question is how long is one year in 'Valve time' or well in this particular case in 'CCP time'.
So I would say they are just trying their best to ignore little irritating things that are already out there and instead make new shinies as that what sells. However I have not lost all hope that they will turn their attention towards T2 BPO's as well one day. All it takes is to poke em enough about it.
After they have done taking good look at the T2 BPO's then I at the very least would expect a devblog about the T2 BPO's and what are their plans in regards of invention and industry in general. So far though I dont think they have got around to it just yet.
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Carniflex
StarHunt
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.22 07:08:00 -
[7]
Originally by: John Smallberries
(just thought i'd add a fresh view point to your arguments ;) )
I like my T2 BPOS.
I like them because many years ago I earned them the hard way. I spent many hours and hours running missions and getting in good with my research agents. I did the work, I made the very long term plans, and then I waited over a year for the pay off. Waited for the chance of a payoff. It wasn't even a sure thing. But i got them, and they belong to me.
I'm sorry that you didn't invest the time to do this yourself. I'm sorry you weren't around for this. And I'm really sorry you are having so much trouble keeping your tears on the inside.
I don't understand your arguments. Mostly what I'm hearing is a lot of whining. I don't understand your 'golden man/monkey' metaphor. I don't understand why you spend so much time posting on the forums rather than actually working for your ISK in game. Invent. Buy. Sell. Trade. The isk is there for those who are willing to work for it.
I like my T2 BPOS. You can't have them or take them from me.
I have other side of that viewpoint. Many years ago I did all the hard things you did. Grinded standings, made plans, and hoped. Only thing is payoff never arrived. All I got was pile of RP. Then the lottery died and CCP served the datacores to those like me as the next best thing after sliced bread. Only thing is you see - they got consumed. Unlike your "investment" that is in a nutshell the exact same few hundred thousand RP at max cached in.
So you had your fun having edge over invention for this particular item for all those years. However - I am sorry for your loss - it is not good for the game. Fairest thing would be just giving you now all the exact same RP you gave up to accept that BPO same as everyone else who did not get the golden gun regardless of doing the exactly same amount of work and showing equal amount of dedication. Those who bought them with isk - it is not CCP's fault that they thought those few hundred thosuand RP at max were worth that amount of isk. Give them datacores and lets move on with life.
As far as understanding goes though - if you do not want to understand no one can open your head and put the enlightenment in there for you. Then again your understanding is not needed for game balancing. Many people throw a tantrum and ragequit over the great nano nerf as well - yet it made the game a better place. Population is now higher than it was before.
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Carniflex
StarHunt
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.22 10:02:00 -
[8]
Originally by: RaTTuS
now about the fairness .... to paraphrase Ouver - "it's not fair - this is eve"
This statement was about a bit different kind of "fair". It is not "fair" to bring 5 guys against 2 guys but this is EVE and EVE is not fair. However in the case of 5 vs 2 the "rules of play" are same for both sides. What we have with T2 BPO's is that in that "2 vs 5" fight the gang of 2 wins every time as "rules of play" are tilted in their favor.
And yeah, the grind in the lottery days was so hard it could make your eyes bleed. I went through it as well. I was a bit late, started 2005, did my learnings, found out about lottery and then spent about half year of my life grinding those standings for my (then only one) account. I just did not get candy for my grind. Not even crappy thermal rocket one!
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Carniflex
StarHunt
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.12.27 11:51:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Traxman
Akita:
You know, we know, but educating the fools are not always working.
It's a waste.. we have to understand there is people out there with iq like a fishstick and rather spam
our beloved forums that they are too stupid to know how to make isk that everyone else in eve have been learning.
That's all it's about, lazyness and stupidity.
Looking from the opposite side of fence it looks more like a faith than knowledge. I guess it's same for you when looking across the fence from your side. So the best "compromise" on this issue so far as been ability to agree to disagree. Your arguments seem hollow to those who see T2 BPO's as evil while those in "T2 BPO's are good" party just dismiss the opposing side arguments as "whining and/or irrelevant". I, Liang and many others see them as bad stuff while you, Venkul, Akita and many others see them as best thing since sliced bread.
Leaving aside our disagreements for the moment surely both sides of the argument would love to see a devblog about it? Well not only about the T2 BPO's in particular but CCP's vision or roadmap about how they see the industrial side of EVE, invention, PI, miniprofessions, datacores, BPO's, market, shares etc etc. So to say "grand vision" for them for industry. They surely must have some plan not just do ad hoc stuff whenever in the mood? TBH the "industrial expansion" they did was a bit ... hollow ... in my opinion.
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