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Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
174
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Posted - 2012.07.25 02:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
for a mining co-ordinator I aill be looking forward to encourage newb miners to fly the skiffs and a 4 machinas. as they are going to fit a nice tanks and not too much lose in mining yield. as I can put plenty of these in one of my rorquals, then have the other rorqual hold hulks for the experienced.
Some Questions
Question 1 I am wondering if the construction costs are going to increase for the Retriever or Procurer. if not it will be a hard choice to switch to hulk or covetor if you are a mysre. Especially that the cost of tech 2 crystals are going to be minimal for the Skiff.
Question 2 Also is the increase in tank to solution for the old reduction of chance to produce a cloud?
Question 3 Just a gut feeling the Mach and the Skiff have no strong bonus that grows with skill of the ship like 5% Alternate Ideas instead of a Mining yield bonus: -->Increase in the Number of mining drones a player can control would be fun. Vs Increase the yield or the increase in Yield or HP of mining drones. (Mach Preference) -->Decrease in Signature radius (Skiff Preference) -->Increase in Shield Resists.(Skiff Preference) -->Increase in Movement (Skiff preference) -->Increase Targeting and Mining Laser Range bonus (Mach preference.) allowing the pilot become even lazier Roid Sniper -->Increase in Power Grid (skiff Preference)
Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
174
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 13:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
cargo size of the Hulk is more than large enough as it is meant to have support, as it is the Min max vessel, to work in a group
the cargo size of the Mach/Retirever is another story as this is meant to be the AFK mining ship. its cargo should be atleast 400m3 to fit 2 sets of reloads as it the lazy mans ship. Just my opinion. but this is not a strong suggestion.
the Procurer/skiff should be fine it only has 1 strip Miner so 3 reloads should be plenty for the day or so.
Though from what I am reading and the justifications behind them. I am thinking CCP may have made a good balance. I am seeing - people complaining about the AFK feature being nerfed out for their Min/Max hulk. Which is what the Retriver/ Mach is... the afk Mining ship. Now people have their cake and eat it too. It is nice. Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
174
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 18:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
Infinite Force wrote:Overall, these changes are good, but there are still some facts that need to be remembered for the Cargohold - for ALL the mining ships: FACT: There are 16 Ore types. FACT: T2 crystals are 50 m3 each. Leaving out Mercoxit as it's a speciality Ore, let's do some calcs with T2 crystals. First, for you "gotta have it all whiners", that's 1,500 m3 of crystals for one "complete" set of crystals with 1 spare -- for each Strip (15 crystals * 2 * 50m3). That means (and no, this will NOT happen) you would need the following cargohold sizes: > Procurer / Skiff : 1,500 m3 > Retriever / Mackinaw : 3,000 m3 > Covetor / Hulk : CH range: 4,500 m3 So, what is REALISTICALLY being asked for? 1. For the T1 Barges, it's being asked that they be able to carry 3 Ore Crystal types + 1 spare. That is 20% of the total Ore types ( 3 / 15), Mercoxit excluded. 2. For the T2 Exhumers, it's being asked that they carry 5 Ore crystal types + 2 spares. That is 33% of the total Ore types (5 / 15), Mercoxit excluded. Anything more than this, and you can have it delivered or dock up to get more. From my prior post in this thead: Quote: The Cargohold of a Barge needs to be able to hold 3 types of Ore crystals with 1 spare. The Cargohold of an Exhumer needs to be able to hold 5 types of Ore crystals with 2 spares. (see the T1 / T2 advantage progression there?)
So, let's compare: T1 crystals are 30 m3 each, T2 are 50 m3.
We'll use T2 crystal math (since they are bigger).
Cargohold Size = T2 Crystal Size * # of Strips * # of crystals (active + spares) * # of ore types
Procurer / Skiff : CH range is : 300 - 750 m3 - T1: 2 crystals / 3 ores: 50 * 1 * 2 * 3 = 300 m3 - T2: 3 crystals / 5 ores: 50 * 1 * 3 * 5 = 750 m3
Retriever / Mackinaw : CH range: 600 - 1500 m3 - T1: 2 crystals / 3 ores: 50 * 2 * 2 * 3 = 600 m3 - T2: 3 crystals / 5 ores: 50 * 2 * 3 * 5 = 1500 m3
Covetor / Hulk : CH range: 900 - 2250 m3 - T1: 2 crystals / 3 ores: 50 * 3 * 2 * 3 = 900 m3 - T2: 3 crystals / 5 ores: 50 * 3 * 3 * 5 = 2250 m3 .. Either reduce crystal size or increase the cargoholds - it's that simple.
Combat vessels - which specialize in shooting things - can carry up to 8 different types of ammo. Mining vessels - which specialize in gathering Ore - need the same relative flexibility - to carry a sub-set of crystals - as I have pointed out. CCP Devs - take a hard look at these numbers & crystal sizes before finalizing any cargohold changes, please.
This why in null sec often Multi box miners often use miner Is , as we move the max yield we specialize in the crystals we use we will require team work to plow through a field as a group.
I am looking forward to the changes except the level bonus for the skiff and Mach, ie move away from yield increase of 1 percent to another aspect of the ship and have a increase per level that matters
Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
174
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 01:26:00 -
[4] - Quote
with the new ore hold, the rorqual will be able to hold and extra 140km3 of compressed ore with retrievers holding ore in their ore hold.
137 Cargo Hold 30 in Corp Hanger 250 K in Ore hold 140 in Retrievers that is 557mk3 in ore. veldspare is compressed at 40 to 1
22,280,000m3 of Ore Now that is a planet - divided by 7k = 3182 Covetor loads? Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
177
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 03:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
Testing out the covetor - on SiSi was surprised I was able to fit T2 Strippers and t2 Upgrades and a small shield booster and cap stable.
Having some trials with the Procurer. Nice to have a tank and a good hold. with only using 1 crystal I can put plenty of spare crystals in the hold. If you want the ease of lots of crystals the Procurer and SKiff is the choice.
Though I wonder why The signature radius of the sig of the Skiff is 200, Mack is 250 and the Hulk is only 150. is this a type O?
It is interesting people are complaining about not enough room for the full spread of crystals on a Hulk. The Hulk is now to be a group dependent ship. A support ship with crystals fits within this them.
For the new Mack and Procurer though - why is CCP still placing a yield bonus on this ships based on Exhumers. It should be more diverse. By diverging away from yield the Hulk become more unique.
SKIFF IE 5% Reduction of Sig radius or Speed for Skiff (ie instead of giving the Skiff a base 200 m/s speed, instead give it a base speed of 150 and a speed increase of 5% per level) So a higher skill in Exhumers gives it a stronger speed tank.
Mackinaw ie The Machinaw is the lazy man's ship. and giving it a range bonus of 5% per level for strip mining laser range (Natural longer targeting may also be needed) Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
177
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 03:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
I have multi Boxed up to 4 accounts, 1 Orca and 3 Hulks in both High sec and null sec
I have also run ops up to 20 in Nulls sec and 25 in high sec(nothing like clearing all belts out of a system)
I would assign or 2 types of ore to each hulk limiting the number of crystals required to be put in stock for the operation. I would assign a couple Hulks with miner I's to clean up the odd ore that didn't have much. (this would often be the empire based ore in the upgraded I-Hub Induced belts in null sec.)
Orcas would be used for hauling Boosting in,High sec, with some secondary help from a hauler(iity 5) that would focus on smaller groups or bins out of tractor range of the Orca. Moving everything to a POS to later be moved to a station via Freighter
In null sec I would haul with Rorqual or Orca with an Itty 5 support, while Boosting with a Rorqual. 1 Tanked Hulk would sit in the belt first to tank the Belt rats. Scouts (alts) in neighbouring systems. Lots and Lots of Bubbles.
The need for tonne of Crystals in a hulk is for the Solo or afk Miner... which is not longer the choice of ship for these people. They now have to make a choice, Convienience (Reteiver) or Or Max Yield The hulk.
Its a new age, And age of Choice, not longer is it simple get to the best ship and max it out. I really like CCP's approach of Balancing for Roles vs Tiers. It is reverse Power creep, it is awesome and really separates eve from other MMOs out there.
Before in my selection of ships it was retriever, or hulk. now I have to rethink my group make up completely. Rekindling my desire to mine again...... Procure is becoming my new favorite ship.
Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
177
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 04:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:Unit757 wrote:Present me with a VALID reason why a FLEET boat has to be able to carry every single ore crystal, even for the ones you wont encounter. Afraid a cluster of jaspet might hot drop you in .5 space? Because asking somebody else to stop doing what they're doing to bring you more crystals isn't fun for anybody. Stopping doing what you're doing to get more crystals isn't fun. Picking ammo for a roam isn't the same. You have down time, you aren't doing DPS 100% of the time. You have time for your ammo hauler to follow you around and meet up with you between fights. When you are mining, you are putting out DPS 100% of the time, you just don't get kill mail for roids. Drox
I am on the opposite side of the fence. On the rare occation I have a ship need to switch beyond the 9 crystals, 3 of 3 types of ore. often it 6 is he most ever needed. (for small group)
The hulk would book marks its location, warp to the boosting Orca or Rorqual to switch out then warp back. Or the hauling orca or Assistant hauling itty 5 would drop off the crystals for the hulk in need, allowing the hauler to be effective both directions from the belt.
I do have to admit I don't do solo mine with just 1 hulk, as I work in groups for the social aspect of it. This may be why I am so opposite to those who "Need" to have 2 full sets of crystals. I am personally seeing the Mack and the Retriever being ideal for those solo players Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
179
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 04:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
My question though is the loss of role of the industrial in the mining op, as a Machanaw can hold more ore than an industrial except the Itty 5
I know on most of my ops the main hauler is usually is an Orca or Rorqual, I would keep a supplemental industrial(itty 5) hauler in the rorqual to be assembled if needed to pick up the slack and leave it behind after stripping all the modules after the op finished. If the hauling feel behind or the Capital sided hauler had to go afk Bio, a miner would swtich from miner to hauler.
Now I can just equip a Machanaw or a Retriever to compete the task, and they take up less space in the rorqual than a mining barge. Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
179
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 16:00:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:Gevlin wrote:I have multi Boxed up to 4 accounts, 1 Orca and 3 Hulks in both High sec and null sec
I have also run ops up to 20 in Nulls sec and 25 in high sec(nothing like clearing all belts out of a system)
I would assign or 2 types of ore to each hulk limiting the number of crystals required to be put in stock for the operation. I would assign a couple Hulks with miner I's to clean up the odd ore that didn't have much. (this would often be the empire based ore in the upgraded I-Hub Induced belts in null sec.)
Orcas would be used for hauling Boosting in,High sec, with some secondary help from a hauler(iity 5) that would focus on smaller groups or bins out of tractor range of the Orca. Moving everything to a POS to later be moved to a station via Freighter
In null sec I would haul with Rorqual or Orca with an Itty 5 support, while Boosting with a Rorqual. 1 Tanked Hulk would sit in the belt first to tank the Belt rats. Scouts (alts) in neighbouring systems. Lots and Lots of Bubbles.
The need for tonne of Crystals in a hulk is for the Solo or afk Miner... which is not longer the choice of ship for these people. They now have to make a choice, Convienience (Reteiver) or Or Max Yield The hulk.
Its a new age, And age of Choice, not longer is it simple get to the best ship and max it out. I really like CCP's approach of Balancing for Roles vs Tiers. It is reverse Power creep, it is awesome and really separates eve from other MMOs out there.
Before in my selection of ships it was retriever, or hulk. now I have to rethink my group make up completely. Rekindling my desire to mine again...... Procure is becoming my new favorite ship.
I really do not understand how you think mining asteroids is afk business for those who want a choice on hand of what crystals to use. I run 3 hulks with my rorq boosting and with a cycle time of 104 seconds you are constantly tabbing between the hulks to empty the ore, creating a new jet can every 2 minutes, watching local, killing rats is hardly afk business.
You have adjusted your play to the old afk model, instead of watching movies you now have additional account. I you experience you would most likely switch to Macks set up for max mining. SInce the hold are now larger you will most likly try to run an additional 2 accounts with the saved time. Mean while the person running 2 account may decide to work with 2 hulks because he can manage ships more effeciently.
With a hulk you have 14 cyrstals in the hold 3 pre loaded = how many Crystals do you need? Do not keep extras in you rorqual's corp hanger? Do you not plan the Roid types you plan to shoot? Do you ever take your miners off the belt because of Bio or a red comes in system. So you ever use your Drones to finish off asteriods or hit that one asteriod you don't have crystals for?
I am utterly surprised you did not mention or ***** about hauling. as that is the most time consuming task in Mining. and the Hauler is the one who can bring the replacement crystals to the miner... if they ever needed crystals.
Jake Rivers: You are a Multi Box AFK miner!
There was talk on the alliance panel from Senior Producer CCP Unifex of the idea of including mini activities between the mining cycle to gain possibly more yield or a bonus when the Roid pops (Officer ore? Old Drone Mineralsl maybe) Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
179
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 17:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
[quote=Dave stark]hauling isn't the most time consuming part of mining what so ever, it's like 60 seconds to warp in and out of a belt.... vs the 20 mins spent mining the ore.[/quote
Consuming Task> Hulk point and shoot walk away for 1.5 mins if Super boosted and return. Hualer.. its go go go.. Gotta keep up, why can't There be fewer Miners, Why if I am a Max miner I am stuck hauling the Ore for the rest of the group in this Itty 5 Why is Bob mining at the opposite end of the belt. I wonder if anyone is going to ask for crystals today? Type of job.
The Hauler ends up being the 1 job that is tough to Multi Box in larger fleets.
When I did the 3 Hulks and 1 Rorqual Routine, After 1 hour 30 mins of mining I would drop the 3 miner climb into his hauler (a rorqual) and take 30 mins constantly hauling. leaving the Max hulk and tank hulk in the belt. Then the next 2 hour Session would begin. This was only done when I have someone with an alt able to watch the entry systems.
in that situation I never carried spares on the Hulks, As I would start the op with fresh crystals each time, giving my used crystals to the newbies around me. I would fit 1 Ore type to each top and have at it. Using my super range to allow me to sit in one spot. I never carried any because they would end up in the jet can if I had a spare.
For me 14 Crystals in a cargo area that I am not going to Jettison is paradise.
The hulk is the micro manage ship: - The Strip miners are 3 so lost cyle time from partial cycles are minimal because of roids only taking a cycle. - The yield per cycle is larger than any of the other boats - On the other hand you will go though more crystals, and have to "PLAN" you mining op to get the biggest haul, - You have the ability to target 6 roids vs the standard 4 -You have to rely on a hauler alt to do your hauling for you so you don't have to remove your self from the belt. - You are more incline to use your drones to finish off roids since you are using a scanner to know what is in each roid. - There is a lot of stuff a miner has to take into account if he want to get the biggest bang for buck
The Machinaw - The strip miners are 2 but have a multplier bonus, to ore bought in per rock - Less Crystals to go through, keeping down the cost. I don't have an unlimited supply by enough to allow me do my job if I do an ounce of pre-planning. - this ship is in fleet so the guy watching local is able to warp the fleet off to the POS if there is trouble _ Lock on to 2 different Asteroids and wait. Most likely the ABC in the Hidden I-Hub Belt as those roids are large fire and forget type of thing - The Drones are mainly ECM drones or PVP drones that only are released if you are the keyboard an you are tackled.
Skiff - The strip miner will have lost cycles on smaller roids but I can hit any asteroid, s I don't have to plan ahead on what I am mining. -If attack I can tank a bit if it is a small gang till help arrives. -My drones I used to finish off roids one at a time. -I can tank any rat, I am Cheap compared to a hulk so If I am lost mining in hostile territory I am not too worried about making money back to replace this ship. -I have a good sized of ore hold so I don't have to mirco manage it. -I am the perfect Newb/Numb ship! - I am also the poor guy who has to keep an eye on local. Hope those scouts don't fall asleep.
Procurer is going to be an awesome Low sec mining ship.... Sweet!
If the Hulk does not take the odd nerf we may experience a power creap and that would be bad. If you plan out your mining before hand you should not experience any loss in productivity in your Hulk if used in groups. Infact in Ice fields its strength increases taking over the role of the Machinaw. Meaning One less ship type to run, and an ability for that ship to have some form of tank.
Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
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Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
179
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 17:45:00 -
[11] - Quote
oh did you see there are some new rigs coming out SISI
Medium Mercoxit Mining Crystal Optimizations - 250 Call, 16 % Mining amount Medium Ice Harvester Accelerator 250 Call, -12% Cycle Time
This should allow hulks to either specialize in Merxite or Ice harvesting... with this new Rig installed. will that beat the No tank Max Miner Machinaw currently on Trangquility?
Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
180
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Posted - 2012.07.28 19:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
the reduce cycle time may increase yield in the long run per hour , and will have less waste from partially empty cycles because of empty asteroids which happen often in empire. In effect you get instead of getting 20% bonus you get 22.0% bonus.
that is just another min max thing. though not sure how it effects the Mack though as that bonus is so so minimal Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
180
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 19:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
Unit757 wrote:There doesn't seem to be any reason to fly a Mackinaw, when the skiff brings in the same yield, with more tank?
IMO, the skiff and Mackinaw seem WAY to AFK friendly.
Interesting changes none the less, I'm willing to bet that people still won't tank them though.
able to fit 3 mining upgrades vs 2 so 9% bonus! Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
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