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Stealth bombers and the need for cloak detection

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Allestin Villimar Retrieval Artists Ltd.	Posted - 2010.07.30 10:12:00 - [1] So I've been hanging out in 0.0 for a couple of months now. When there are enemy fleets in the area, we engage them, blow each other up, and it's fun. But problems arise when we get some random ****hat in a stealth bomber. He'll come into the system, get through bubbles easily by instantly cloaking, and then they can warp off into whatever safe spot and afk for hours. After that, just camp a jump bridge, gate, or look for an anomaly, then blow them up and warp off again. Due to the high damage of bombs and torpedoes, and the undetectable nature of cloaking, there is no real risk to this tactic. Since EVE is all about risk, I'm proposing three things: 1) Cloaks will only auto-cycle for 5-10 minutes. There is no risk to you if you're actually there since you can just reactivate it, but it'll stop the people who afk for hours at a safe spot. At the same time, the cycle lasts long enough that you can go make a sandwich or use the bathroom without worrying too much. 2) Cloak detection probes. These will have a max detection range of 5-10 AU, and again, won't be much of a threat to people who are there and scanning for them - you can see they have a probe out and you can warp off. 3) Anti-cloak bubbles. This provides a 30 km bubble that de-cloaks any ship inside of it, but can't be used within 100 km of jump gates. Downside is significantly increased lock time for the ships within the bubble, which gives people a chance to get away. I'm debating on what kind of ships this should be fitted on (it wouldn't be a deployable), probably either a heavy interdictor (can't use the warp bubble while it's up) or a heavy assault cruiser. My goal is not to make low/null sec travel more dangerous, just to make stealth bombing a riskier endeavor than it currently is. ...in bed.
annab Amarr Dromedaworks inc On the Rocks	Posted - 2010.07.30 10:32:00 - [2] A few points 1. The cycle time is a bad idea as last time I checked there is a timer before re-cloaking. Cloaks have many uses like intel, getting supply's to a base ect. 2. Give the cloak probes but remove local from 0.0 space. Otherwise your under power cloaks. 3. Only if warp scrambler bubbles can't be used as well. Otherwise over powered. 4. When a POS is shoot your get an eve mail so send a indy to there he then has to leave the target or die. Also you could send a remote repair ship. 5. If the damage is to high for a repair team to warp in system to save it maybe a boost to the pos module. 6. Get some one to assign a group of drones to a inty and use them as drag nets. See a ship cloak hit that mwd and head that way.
0ne Gallente	Posted - 2010.07.30 11:18:00 - [3] Edited by: 0ne on 30/07/2010 11:19:21 Another cloak whine, well I never. Me wonders if the OP lost a ship against a stealth bomber. hmmm Edit: Nah, it's another AFK cloak whine.
Black Dranzer	Posted - 2010.07.30 12:12:00 - [4] Cloaked ships are generally weak ships whose primary use is evading detection. Occasionally though, a stealth bomber will find you when you're alone and shred you without you being able to do much about it because that's what they're f-cking designed for. -------------------------------------------------- Learning skills are an ultimatum, not a choice.
Grarr Dexx Amarr GK inc.	Posted - 2010.07.30 14:18:00 - [5] Sure, if you remove local.
Mahtie The Maverick Navy IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.07.30 14:57:00 - [6] he got a point System Denial is a plague in Eve. How come somebody not playing the game can prevent whole group of players to play? I played Eve for many years now. And need for speed sure did increase the fun factor in Eve. But nothing was done to address System Denil. The idea i propose is the following: Shield Emitter Polarization. Following an Exponential curve, the longer you stay cloak the more your shield emitters "polarize". Ok it polarize the shields of your ship... so what now? Well if your cloack emitter resonnate with your shield... It could be possible to use your own cloacking device to feed an energy impulse into your own shileds resulting in a system wide EMP. The produced EMP cannot uncloack cloacked ships, BUT the EMP make polarized shield resonnate. Kinda like a submarine sonar. Using a special type ofprobe laucher and special probe that could detect that ping, it could be possible to triagulate the position of the cloacked ship. Ok so polarization build up? Well your shield are naturally balanced. But when cloacked, you emmiter build up with certain particles following an exponential curve. IE after 30min cloacked, it will take you a full 45min uncloacked to depolarize your shield emitters. And at that polarization percentage, let's say 30% polarization, your shield ressonate with a ping that has the signature radius of 50% your ship size. Stay cloacked longer, let's say for 45 minutes your shield polarisation will be of 60% wich in return provide a ping of 100% your ship signature radius. Stay cloacked 90 minutes... well your polarization is meeting an asymptote getting close to 99.99% and you pinged signature radius is 300%. making a frigate as easy to find as a BC. ****************************************** [i]I propose Evelgrivion as 2010 CSM Member. Vote Evelgrivion 2010 ! http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=391410
Allestin Villimar Retrieval Artists Ltd.	Posted - 2010.07.30 19:09:00 - [7] I haven't lost any ships to stealth bombers, but I'm getting tired of them hanging around local for hours with no way to catch them. The only thing that's as risk-free as afk cloaking is sitting in a station. I have no problem with people who are actively gathering intel or actively camping jump bridges, it's only the people who go afk for hours in complete safety. Being in enemy territory filled with hostiles should be risky, and cloaks completely negate that risk. As for removing local from 0.0, fat chance. I seriously doubt ccp would do that, and I think many of you people clamoring for it would be asking for it back within a week. It's not just a defensive tool, it lets you know when there's people to hunt as well. ...in bed.
ShahFluffers Gallente Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.07.30 19:23:00 - [8] Originally by: Black Dranzer Cloaked ships are generally weak ships whose primary use is evading detection. Occasionally though, a stealth bomber will find you when you're alone and shred you without you being able to do much about it because that's what they're f-cking designed for. ^^ This. Originally by: Mahtie he got a point System Denial is a plague in Eve. How come somebody not playing the game can prevent whole group of players to play? It doesn't. You just don't want to play defensively like you should already be doing in NULL-SEC. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Being in enemy territory filled with hostiles should be risky, and cloaks completely negate that risk. Have you ever tried to get a cloaked ship into enemy territory in the first place? It's actually harder than it sounds... provided that the locals are actively defending/camping their gates with bubbles and interceptors. _______________________ "Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown
Magnus Orin Minmatar United Systems Navy Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.07.30 19:38:00 - [9] Cloaks, Stealth Bombers, and AFK cloaking are all working quite fine. None of them need to be changed in the slightest imo. Except perhaps a way for cloaked ships in the same fleet to coordinate positions. Sarcasm - Because i'm too far away to strangle you.
Allestin Villimar Retrieval Artists Ltd.	Posted - 2010.07.30 19:40:00 - [10] Originally by: ShahFluffers It doesn't. You just don't want to play defensively like you should already be doing in NULL-SEC. Defensively, just like the guy who afks for hours is playing defensively? CCP forgot to include a counter for something, even though everything else has one is what this boils down to. I'm not talking about people who are actively camping or gathering intel. It's very easy to warp from place to place while cloaked and nothing I'm suggesting would be effective against someone who was actively playing a recon or cov ops. Originally by: ShahFluffers Have you ever tried to get a cloaked ship into enemy territory in the first place? It's actually harder than it sounds... provided that the locals are actively defending/camping their gates with bubbles and interceptors. Several times in a buzzard. It's easy, really. Double click to go one way (if there's a bubble), activate cloak, immediately switch directions. Works every time. ...in bed.
Marcus Gideon Gallente Federal Defense Operations	Posted - 2010.07.30 19:46:00 - [11] The problem is not Cloaking... The problem is LOCAL If you didn't know there was an unfriendly face, somewhere "out there", you wouldn't care. If you were worried about invaders, you would control your borders better. Try living in a WH for a while, and then come back and complain.
ninjaholic Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2010.07.30 19:55:00 - [12] Edited by: ninjaholic on 30/07/2010 19:55:56 Originally by: Allestin Villimar But problems arise when we get some random **hat in a stealth bomber. Reporting in! + Support EVE's own IN-GAME fight record tool!**
Allestin Villimar Retrieval Artists Ltd.	Posted - 2010.07.30 20:03:00 - [13] Originally by: Marcus Gideon The problem is not Cloaking... The problem is LOCAL If you didn't know there was an unfriendly face, somewhere "out there", you wouldn't care. If you were worried about invaders, you would control your borders better. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Originally by: ShahFluffers Have you ever tried to get a cloaked ship into enemy territory in the first place? It's actually harder than it sounds... provided that the locals are actively defending/camping their gates with bubbles and interceptors. Several times in a buzzard. It's easy, really. Double click to go one way (if there's a bubble), activate cloak, immediately switch directions. Works every time. Unless they have 20+ ships camping every entrance gate into their space all day, no place is hard to get into with cov ops. ...in bed.
Magnus Orin Minmatar United Systems Navy Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.07.30 20:23:00 - [14] Originally by: Allestin Villimar Originally by: Marcus Gideon The problem is not Cloaking... The problem is LOCAL If you didn't know there was an unfriendly face, somewhere "out there", you wouldn't care. If you were worried about invaders, you would control your borders better. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Originally by: ShahFluffers Have you ever tried to get a cloaked ship into enemy territory in the first place? It's actually harder than it sounds... provided that the locals are actively defending/camping their gates with bubbles and interceptors. Several times in a buzzard. It's easy, really. Double click to go one way (if there's a bubble), activate cloak, immediately switch directions. Works every time. Unless they have 20+ ships camping every entrance gate into their space all day, no place is hard to get into with cov ops. and what harm is a cloaked afk cov ops ship may i ask? Sarcasm - Because i'm too far away to strangle you.
ShahFluffers Gallente Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.07.30 21:01:00 - [15] Edited by: ShahFluffers on 30/07/2010 21:06:32 Originally by: Allestin Villimar Unless they have 20+ ships camping every entrance gate into their space all day, no place is hard to get into with cov ops. You only need a mobile bubble, an interceptor or 2, and a DPS ship (usually ranged) just in case. 20+ for a gate camp is a tad overkill for ONE Recon, let alone ONE Stealth Bomber. But that's beside the point... if you don't want to commit even limited resources to proactively defend your space (or keeps eyes on it at the very least), then you either should learn to fly defensively or leave 0.0 for "safer" places. That's just my 2 cents. edit: Originally by: Allestin Villimar Defensively, just like the guy who afks for hours is playing defensively? CCP forgot to include a counter for something, even though everything else has one is what this boils down to. I'm not talking about people who are actively camping or gathering intel. It's very easy to warp from place to place while cloaked and nothing I'm suggesting would be effective against someone who was actively playing a recon or cov ops. As the gentleman above me pointed out... the counter to specialized cloaking ships is in the ships THEMSELVES. They are weak (lacking in DPS, tank, speed, or all of the above) and can be easily killed or avoided if you fly DEFENSIVELY. _______________________ "Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown
Allestin Villimar Retrieval Artists Ltd.	Posted - 2010.07.31 09:02:00 - [16] Originally by: ShahFluffers You only need a mobile bubble, an interceptor or 2, and a DPS ship (usually ranged) just in case. 20+ for a gate camp is a tad overkill for ONE Recon, let alone ONE Stealth Bomber. That's the kind of gate camp I can get past in my sleep, and we usually have at least that much en route, as well as anchored bubbles in the path of direct warps between jump gates. We always know when people are coming and going, catching cov ops is another matter entirely. Originally by: ShahFluffers As the gentleman above me pointed out... the counter to specialized cloaking ships is in the ships THEMSELVES. They are weak (lacking in DPS, tank, speed, or all of the above) and can be easily killed or avoided if you fly DEFENSIVELY. Not only is that an incredibly weak argument, it's not even a counter to the argument I'm making. My point is not that they are so much of a threat that they can't be dealt with, but that they are in enemy territory with hostiles around and have no risk what so ever. Why is any ship so completely risk free that they can afk for hours with enemies around? Originally by: Magnus Orin and what harm is a cloaked afk cov ops ship may i ask? Why should they be able to sit there with hostiles around for hours on end with no chance of being caught? Cloaking has no effective counter in this game. The only way of catching them is at a gate, and even then you have to be lucky in that they have to jump in relatively near you. ...in bed.
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2010.07.31 09:51:00 - [17] Oh great, another Jan Brady thread.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2010.07.31 10:04:00 - [18] Originally by: Mahtie he got a point System Denial is a plague in Eve. How come somebody not playing the game can prevent whole group of players to play? This is only possible when the whole group of players lack even one complete backbone.
Allestin Villimar Retrieval Artists Ltd.	Posted - 2010.07.31 11:39:00 - [19] Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Originally by: Mahtie he got a point System Denial is a plague in Eve. How come somebody not playing the game can prevent whole group of players to play? This is only possible when the whole group of players lack even one complete backbone. You can't kill what you can't find. ...in bed.
ShahFluffers Gallente Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.07.31 20:53:00 - [20] Originally by: Allestin Villimar That's the kind of gate camp I can get past in my sleep, and we usually have at least that much en route, as well as anchored bubbles in the path of direct warps between jump gates. We always know when people are coming and going, catching cov ops is another matter entirely. Step up your game then. It's quite easy to catch a cloaking ship if you do it right. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Not only is that an incredibly weak argument, it's not even a counter to the argument I'm making. My point is not that they are so much of a threat that they can't be dealt with, but that they are in enemy territory with hostiles around and have no risk what so ever. Why is any ship so completely risk free that they can afk for hours with enemies around? It's not a weak argument. It's the reality that cloaking ships have to live with in order to do what they do (aside from e-war, ever wonder why Falcons are always primary? Here's a hint; they are shield tankers and e-war mods use mid-slots). When such a ship decloaks, they are putting themselves at risk and gambling that they can kill their target before the target kills them (or that the target will die before back-up arrives). And to come full circle in this argument: how is an afk cloaker a threat? They are afk. Ergo, no threat. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Why should they be able to sit there with hostiles around for hours on end with no chance of being caught? Cloaking has no effective counter in this game. The only way of catching them is at a gate, and even then you have to be lucky in that they have to jump in relatively near you. There is always a chance that something can be caught. You just have to be smart about it. If you can't catch them at a gate then I recommend baiting and using your own cloaky ships. As for counters... cloaking is a counter to a counter. And, as I said before, it has it's own counter. Warping to a safespot is a counter to all the celestials being camped/guarded. Probes are a counter to safespots. Cloaking is a counter to probes. And the counter to being "unprobable" is that most cloaking ships can't stand up very well in an even fight (pit a Vexor against a Pilgrim or a Falcon, you'll be pleasantly surprised). _______________________ "Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown
Allestin Villimar Retrieval Artists Ltd.	Posted - 2010.08.01 00:31:00 - [21] Originally by: ShahFluffers Step up your game then. It's quite easy to catch a cloaking ship if you do it right. Like you said, the amount of ships required to guarantee the capture of a cov ops is fairly ridiculous. I jump through systems all the time with 4-5 people camping. But cov ops being difficult to catch is not my problem. Originally by: ShahFluffers It's not a weak argument. It's the reality that cloaking ships have to live with in order to do what they do (aside from e-war, ever wonder why Falcons are always primary? Here's a hint; they are shield tankers and e-war mods use mid-slots). When such a ship decloaks, they are putting themselves at risk and gambling that they can kill their target before the target kills them (or that the target will die before back-up arrives). It's a weak argument because it assumes the stealth bomber can't choose their targets and will have to deal with normal combat risks. Since they can choose their targets, and can deal enough damage in less time to blow up something cruiser-sized or smaller than it takes most cruisers to lock them, it's a bad argument. Cov ops don't have to fight by the same rules as non-cloaking ships. A half decent stealth bomber will never lose their ship because they'll know what they can and cannot take out. Originally by: ShahFluffers And to come full circle in this argument: how is an afk cloaker a threat? They are afk. Ergo, no threat. But you don't know they're afk. What are you going to do, completely halt all traffic that can die quickly in the system for hours? Let me explain how an afk stealth bomber works: Enter system. Warp to a safe spot, go afk. Come back in 3-4 hours. Warp to a jump bridge or anomaly. Nail the first person that comes through in something you can take out in one volley. Loot, re-cloak, leave. Rinse and repeat. There's no way to counter this since you never know when they are going to be there and when they aren't. Where's the risk? The off chance that someone actually waited the 3-4 hours you were afk to show up? Never going to happen. Originally by: ShahFluffers There is always a chance that something can be caught. You just have to be smart about it. If you can't catch them at a gate then I recommend baiting and using your own cloaky ships. No, there is not. Safe spot while cloaked = you will never going to get caught. Sure, technically there's a one in a billion chance someone I'll answer the rest when I get back. ...in bed.
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.08.01 00:59:00 - [22] I don't like it when kids hang out in front of my house. ------------------------------------------------------- 5 minute forum time delay is a crime against humanity.
ShahFluffers Gallente Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.08.01 03:40:00 - [23] Edited by: ShahFluffers on 01/08/2010 03:43:57 Originally by: Allestin Villimar Like you said, the amount of ships required to guarantee the capture of a cov ops is fairly ridiculous. I jump through systems all the time with 4-5 people camping. But cov ops being difficult to catch is not my problem. For this, I'll reiterate a point I made before... if you don't want to put the effort to defend your space then you'd better learn to fly defensively. Originally by: Allestin Villimar It's a weak argument because it assumes the stealth bomber can't choose their targets and will have to deal with normal combat risks. Since they can choose their targets, and can deal enough damage in less time to blow up something cruiser-sized or smaller than it takes most cruisers to lock them, it's a bad argument. Cov ops don't have to fight by the same rules as non-cloaking ships. A half decent stealth bomber will never lose their ship because they'll know what they can and cannot take out. Wait... a stealth bomber can kill a cruiser or smaller ship easily?? Pffft. If this has happened to you then I'm sorry... you need to take a refresher course in PvP. Whenever I'm flying around in my stealth bomber I'm actually SCARED of cruisers sized ships and smaller. Torps do crap damage against them due to their small sig radius (target painters don't help as much as you think) and frigates are usually fast enough and armed enough to catch and pop a SB in seconds. No, it's usually ships with a high sig radius that should be wary of a stealth bomber (i.e. ratting Ravens and mining barges). But again... I'll hammer the point I made before; fly defensively. You're in null, you should be prepared for combat at a moments notice. So fly accordingly. Originally by: Allestin Villimar But you don't know they're afk. What are you going to do, completely halt all traffic that can die quickly in the system for hours? Let me explain how an afk stealth bomber works: Enter system. Warp to a safe spot, go afk. Come back in 3-4 hours. Warp to a jump bridge or anomaly. Nail the first person that comes through in something you can take out in one volley. Loot, re-cloak, leave. Rinse and repeat. There's no way to counter this since you never know when they are going to be there and when they aren't. Where's the risk? The off chance that someone actually waited the 3-4 hours you were afk to show up? Never going to happen. If you're THAT scared of ONE ship then you have no business in being in null sec. And frankly, you wouldn't do too well in low-sec either. There is ALWAYS a red (or a neutral that belongs to a red) in system. I also don't think you're cut out to be in wormhole space either. Your dependency on local as an intel channel seems a bit too high. No, seriously... how hard is it to rat in a PvP-ready ship (or something close to one)? How hard is it to fly with a friend/wingman? How hard is it to find someone willing to scout you into an area you're not sure about? If you have ONE person with you that can quickly point the stealth bomber (or even a recon ship), it's going to die VERY, VERY fast. FFS, in every thread that complains about cloaking ships I see the same thing: people *****ing about how they don't "feel" safe and can't conduct themselves the way they normally do because it's "risky" to do so. You're in null-sec. The big-boy leagues. Start acting accordingly and play like a "big-boy." One cloaker CANNOT ruin your day unless you are sloppy and present yourself as an easy target. Fly defensively and deny it such a target. _______________________ "Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown
Cikulisuy Amarr D00M. Excessum Messor	Posted - 2010.08.01 10:43:00 - [24] area denial is the entire point of a stealth bomber you moron. grow a backbone, watch your overview and be aligned, and you will never be caught. if you slack off and are pointed in a belt by a stealth bomber, it is your fault and you deserve to die. ~
Poproid Fofunn	Posted - 2010.08.01 12:09:00 - [25] I would suggest a module that be able to send a pulse to decloak ships in the area of effect, say 50km or 100km. But it will have a delay to operate, or need to be lunched same as a bomb in some direction with travel factor.
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.08.01 14:09:00 - [26] Originally by: Cikulisuy area denial is the entire point of a stealth bomber you moron. grow a backbone, watch your overview and be aligned, and you will never be caught. if you slack off and are pointed in a belt by a stealth bomber, it is your fault and you deserve to die. How is it area denial, if he can still use the system? Forcing people to be on their toes, is not really a denial, is it?
Naomi Wildfire Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.08.01 15:01:00 - [27] Haha, cloak whine countered with even more rediculus remove local whine. Some things never change..
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.08.01 19:23:00 - [28] there is nothing wrong with afk cloaking and "system denial", its its whole purpose actually. as we have instant local, you need afking cloaked in order to catch something what instantly hides on local +1.
Allestin Villimar Retrieval Artists Ltd.	Posted - 2010.08.01 23:31:00 - [29] Originally by: ShahFluffers For this, I'll reiterate a point I made before... if you don't want to put the effort to defend your space then you'd better learn to fly defensively. And how is someone who is afk in enemy space being "defensive". You can't hold one group of players to a standard and not others. You should always play defensively in 0.0 regardless of whether there is an enemy in the system or not. The guy who afks while cloaked is the guy who's not being defensive - he may as well be in a station he's so safe. Originally by: ShahFluffers Wait... a stealth bomber can kill a cruiser or smaller ship easily?? Pffft. If this has happened to you then I'm sorry... you need to take a refresher course in PvP. Whenever I'm flying around in my stealth bomber I'm actually SCARED of cruisers sized ships and smaller. Torps do crap damage against them due to their small sig radius (target painters don't help as much as you think) and frigates are usually fast enough and armed enough to catch and pop a SB in seconds. You're ignoring the point. SBs can choose their targets and as such their weaker defense is a non-issue because they can guarantee victory before they even engage. Originally by: ShahFluffers No, seriously... how hard is it to rat in a PvP-ready ship (or something close to one)? How hard is it to fly with a friend/wingman? How hard is it to find someone willing to scout you into an area you're not sure about? If you have ONE person with you that can quickly point the stealth bomber (or even a recon ship), it's going to die VERY, VERY fast. Are you even reading my arguments? I don't care that stealth bombers can kill people. If there's a red I expect casualties to be a possibility. I care that they can sit in a system for hours being afk without any risk to themselves. Take all your whining about how people complain that they don't feel safe and stuff it in up your backside until you can develop some reading comprehension. Why should anyone be able to sit for hours in an enemy system, in space, with enemies around, and have no risk? No one has yet answered that. ...in bed.
ShahFluffers Gallente Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.08.02 00:03:00 - [30] Edited by: ShahFluffers on 02/08/2010 00:04:36 Originally by: Allestin Villimar And how is someone who is afk in enemy space being "defensive". You can't hold one group of players to a standard and not others. You should always play defensively in 0.0 regardless of whether there is an enemy in the system or not. The guy who afks while cloaked is the guy who's not being defensive - he may as well be in a station he's so safe. You're ignoring the point. SBs can choose their targets and as such their weaker defense is a non-issue because they can guarantee victory before they even engage. Yes, stealth bombers can guarantee victory over a ship weaker than them... so don't fly a ship that is weaker than a stealth bomber. Or use numbers to compensate. A lone stealth bomber will fly defensively by NOT decloaking and attacking something he might die against. The same principle can be applied when you're hiking out in the middle of the wilderness... during drought season. You want to hike in safety and not be mauled by wild animals? Don't smother yourself in honey or carry freshly caught fish out in the open... ALONE. Doing so only makes you a target. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Are you even reading my arguments? I don't care that stealth bombers can kill people. If there's a red I expect casualties to be a possibility. I care that they can sit in a system for hours being afk without any risk to themselves. Take all your whining about how people complain that they don't feel safe and stuff it in up your backside until you can develop some reading comprehension. Why should anyone be able to sit for hours in an enemy system, in space, with enemies around, and have no risk? No one has yet answered that. I am reading your arguments and the only thing I get out of them is, "I don't like it when I can't engage someone on MY terms, give me the ability to do so." The risk for a Stealth bomber occurs each time it uncloaks. If you are ready for it, it WILL die. I know it's against the rules, but here's a killmail from a recent roam I made in Providence region. The SB and his friends covert-cynoed in and dropped a few bombs on my friends and I. I pointed him and my buddy insta-popped him. Welcome to EvE. Not every engagement or ship match-up is going to your liking. You want to be safe from the unknown? Tough. Grow a pair and start adapting yourself to the situation rather than whine about it's not to your liking. _______________________ "Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown

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