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The widow, a use?

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Denuo Secus	Posted - 2010.08.09 23:35:00 - [31] Originally by: Patri Andari ECM burst plus sensor dampener is strong with this one. The Widow doesn't share the Scorpions ECM Burst bonus right? Its a pity :( - Save the missiles from the glowing blob :S R ----------> * A --------> * V --------> * E -------> * N ---------> *
Footoo Rama Gallente Cast-a-Ways.	Posted - 2010.08.09 23:48:00 - [32] Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen Edited by: Vmir Gallahasen on 09/08/2010 00:45:50 Originally by: Footoo Rama I haven't seen one used?? Huh I have been dropped by and on with these. Your examples were 'gate camping and 'RR roaming fleet ECM'. You have zero knowledge of fitting them. You're going by how they look on paper and it's far from reality. Quote: I never said the covert cloak would make it a solo pwn mobile. I said slightly OP as it would make it easier for a BO to get into posit, without needing scouting. Get into position for what? It'll have a fleet of covert, agile ships with it anyway, ready to be dumped onto the target. Or else it'll be cloaked, waiting for said fleet to return. Quote: I do not see how a BO does not fullfill its role perfectly, it is meant to jump in other ships and get them out, it was never meant to be a PvP ship. Of course you don't, you haven't tried one out yourself. We're interested in improving its logistical role -- jump drive range and fuel use -- more than its actual combat role. Plenty of ships are good at combat. Only one sub-capital ship is capable of creating a bridge for other ships, and it's so nerfed and short range that black ops pilots feel cheated. But of course you don't know that, and won't until you're a black ops pilot yourself. Wow you are that dumb... I have seen them used for bridging, as well as a widow used outside of that. In my original post I suggested they get a fuel bay to help out with the fuel issues. You are agreeing with me on the cov ops cloak point that they are not needed... As well as getting into position is getting deep into enemy systems a cov ops cloak would make getting through gates just a bit easier. ------- "Because the Dominix is the Chuck Norris of Eve!"
Vmir Gallahasen Gallente The Darkness Within Death Rhubarb	Posted - 2010.08.10 01:55:00 - [33] Originally by: Footoo Rama In my original post I suggested they get a fuel bay to help out with the fuel issues. Two years ago when they first appeared, they seriously needed a fuel bay. One YEAR ago they got one. Please Footoo, until you understand black ops better than 'I was bridged by one' or 'I saw one in a gate camp once' just refrain from posting garbage and armchair theories about how they're okay.
Patri Andari Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer	Posted - 2010.08.10 05:16:00 - [34] Originally by: Denuo Secus Originally by: Patri Andari ECM burst plus sensor dampener is strong with this one. The Widow doesn't share the Scorpions ECM Burst bonus right? Its a pity :( More strength, less range , but a bonus to both just like Scorpion. Patri I'll Roshambo You For That Titan!
Jim Tudeski	Posted - 2010.08.10 08:41:00 - [35] [Widow, New Setup 2] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Damage Control II Gist X-Type 100MN MicroWarpdrive Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Pithum A-Type Magnetic Scattering Amplifier Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800 Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Juggernaut Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Juggernaut Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Juggernaut Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Juggernaut Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Juggernaut Torpedo Improved 'Guise' Cloaking Device II Imperial Navy Heavy Energy Neutralizer Large Ancillary Current Router II Large Ancillary Current Router II Hammerhead II x5 Warrior II x5
AdZc Caldari Legio Prima Victrix	Posted - 2010.08.10 09:30:00 - [36] I hate how people bang on about "im not losing my half a bil ship in a fight etc." If u cant afford it dont buy it. I treat the isk as lost forever wen i buy a ship. Whats the point in playin if u arent prepared to take a risk. Buy up all the ships an do nothing? /rant over. Anyway im not a BO pilot but would liek to be one possibly an this makes for interesting reading. Is the fit above a Lol fit or a winnage? Im not sure --------------------------- Shipoopi! Originally by: Sangeli Please be nice to me I donated blood
Azuse Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.10 10:28:00 - [37] The above if over-tanked (use t2) but effective. A lot of people simply treat it like a torp raven, but add a couple emc mods. I know others that use it as a plex ship in hostile space, and just cyno out when someone comes looking for them. The biggest problem with b.ops is ccp was just lazy. The bridge on a widow uses the same amount of fuel as the bridge on a titan (they just copied it). So if you want to bridge a falcon 4au it costs you ~1500 fuel, however if you wanted to simply jump the widows 4au it would cost you ~750 fuel. Chronic fuel use plus chronic range plus chronic cpu and lack of covert cloak (debatable but it seems off that the biggest ship in a black ops gang is the only one without it) makes them medicore at best thanks to their high skill requirement. Cost augment is irrelevant. If you have the skills and are a cap pilot you should have the isk, if it's too expensive don't fly it, if you cant afford it don't fly it. The solution is to bring a hauler full of fuel with you. A great solution because as we know everyone want to fly a cloaked hauler in a pvp gang, so it's really jut a rouse to make someone bring an alt i.e. pay for a second account. We tried the no covert cloak on bombers for 6 years, it took them 6 years to admit they were wrong and give the covert cloak, so how long before they "fix" black ops? Bering in mind it's almost 2 years currently, and they know bugs from the last expansion still haven't been fixed and ccp themselves said new content sells better than polished perfection.. -------------------------
Von Kroll Caldari m3 Corp R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.10 11:25:00 - [38] The ECM burst on a Widow is vicious. Almost a 100% chance to break lock against anything in-game not fitted with ECCM. Another capability that hasn't been talked about here is the ability to bridge ships into cyno-jammed systems. During the Provi-War last year, -A- and others used BO bridges to bridge in blockade runners carrying towers that became their staging points. Moving high-value cargo around via blockade runners and the covops bridge also has some serious potential utility. I think anyone using it for conventional jamming (aka Scorp) isn't being creative enough. The Widow will never be more cost-effective than the Scorpion for straight jamming. I will agree that the fuel mechanic needs to be changed, and they most certainly need the covops cloak. I don't mind the expense of the ship if these two characteristics are changed.
Azuse Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.10 11:54:00 - [39] Very true, but the single larger failing of black ops is the widows is the only one hat brings something unique too the field. The redeemer, sin and panther all exist as damage dealers, that was what they were created as however it's almost as if the team making them wasn't talking to the team buffing bombers, ships which take a fraction of the sp,isk & fuel yet are capable of dealing 550-650 dps at a greater range than the bs. Why take a black ops if you can tank a handful of bombers, at greatly reduced cost, that deal greatly increased damage? The sin makes a great logistics platform, but while fun it's not really what it was meant to do while the redeemer and panther are both overshadowed but a small bomber squad. The widows combination of damage, tank (potential) & ecm make it the most flexible, and most survivable, of the 4 hence the ship of choice should you be capable of flying them. But hey, in 4 years ccp might get around to fixing the half of eve they broke and give my redeemer a neut bonus, the panther webs etc.. -------------------------
Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb Focused Intentions	Posted - 2010.08.10 12:10:00 - [40] Edited by: Wacktopia on 10/08/2010 12:14:10 You should always... "What ship fits this role" and not... "What role fits this ship" Originally by: Von Kroll and they most certainly need the covops cloak. I don't mind the expense of the ship if these two characteristics are changed. I would only support the covops cloak if they nerfed the offensive capabilities of BOs. The lack of the covops cloak is an important distinction to prevent cloaky battleships warping about the shop. In the true BO role, they do not need offensive capabilities (being essentially logistical) - remove this and the covops cloak would be fine.
Von Kroll Caldari m3 Corp R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.10 16:41:00 - [41] Originally by: Wacktopia I would only support the covops cloak if they nerfed the offensive capabilities of BOs. The lack of the covops cloak is an important distinction to prevent cloaky battleships warping about the shop. In the true BO role, they do not need offensive capabilities (being essentially logistical) - remove this and the covops cloak would be fine. The thing about the BO, or at least the Widow, is that it can't be all things at once. It can be a semi-heavy hitter, can be a cloaky gang support ship, or a bridge. It can't do all of these simultaneously. Also, they are practically the most expensive sub-capital PvP ships in the game and they are the most skill intensive. The cost and skill requirements keep them from being imbalanced, should they ever get a CovOps cloak. You could make an argument, IMO, that they are too expensive and skill intensive for their current capability. Even with CovOps cloaks, folks are still going to think hard about taking a 750 mil - 1 bil isk fitted ship into direct combat. Personally, I think you could make another argument that the jump range should be greater as well, but I'd settle for more efficient fuel useage and the cloak.
Meeko Atari	Posted - 2010.08.10 16:53:00 - [42] All I think the ship class needs ( even if the Cov-Ops Cloak is or is not allowed ) is the ability to jump into a system without the need for a Covert Cyno alt. I have a Jump Drive... I should be able to use it to jump within my range without the need for an alt.
Von Kroll Caldari m3 Corp R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.10 19:16:00 - [43] Originally by: Meeko Atari All I think the ship class needs ( even if the Cov-Ops Cloak is or is not allowed ) is the ability to jump into a system without the need for a Covert Cyno alt. I have a Jump Drive... I should be able to use it to jump within my range without the need for an alt. Why? You can't do that with a capital ship.
Vmir Gallahasen Gallente The Darkness Within Death Rhubarb	Posted - 2010.08.10 19:50:00 - [44] Originally by: Von Kroll Why? You can't do that with a capital ship. Not been reading the thread? Because planting forces in hostile territory is ******ed when you need forces in hostile territory in order to do it, and when those forces you're capable of planting can get there on their own in the majority of situations. The ship isn't even used in its listed role, it just dumps covert ops ships onto people. And if all of those people weren't in covert ops but regular ships, then whatever system you're dumping them in wouldn't be hostile territory (temporarily anyway) in the first place.
Von Kroll Caldari m3 Corp R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.10 20:27:00 - [45] Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen Originally by: Von Kroll Why? You can't do that with a capital ship. Not been reading the thread? Because planting forces in hostile territory is ******ed when you need forces in hostile territory in order to do it, and when those forces you're capable of planting can get there on their own in the majority of situations. The ship isn't even used in its listed role, it just dumps covert ops ships onto people. And if all of those people weren't in covert ops but regular ships, then whatever system you're dumping them in wouldn't be hostile territory (temporarily anyway) in the first place. You (or your character at least) have been around the game long enough that you should know better. Oh well, I'm not here to change your mind.
Meeko Atari	Posted - 2010.08.10 21:53:00 - [46] Originally by: Von Kroll Originally by: Meeko Atari All I think the ship class needs ( even if the Cov-Ops Cloak is or is not allowed ) is the ability to jump into a system without the need for a Covert Cyno alt. I have a Jump Drive... I should be able to use it to jump within my range without the need for an alt. Why? You can't do that with a capital ship. Carriers and Dreads cant use Jump Drives can they? There is only one ship class in the game that can use a Covert Jump Drive, I am not against using an alt to fine tune your jump to another system ( or on a helpless ratter ) but it would be in this ships role or niche to not require the use of an Alt to jump to another system. To be clear.. you should be able to jump to another system without an alt...but land in some random spot in that system unless you use a Alt to land somewhere specific. my 2 isk
Vmir Gallahasen Gallente The Darkness Within Death Rhubarb	Posted - 2010.08.11 06:02:00 - [47] Originally by: Von Kroll You (or your character at least) have been around the game long enough that you should know better. Oh well, I'm not here to change your mind. For some reason, I can't find any link on any killboard with you flying a black ops. You only bridge stuff, or are you another EFT armchair Blops pilot? 'Hey, look what it can do with an ECM burst!'. Seriously? You'd waste a slot on an ECM burst to break (not jam) the locks of other ships including your allies which all jumped in with you? Once every 30 seconds? If you thought that was a good idea, you certainly wouldn't be in any black ops gang with me.
Von Kroll Caldari m3 Corp R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.11 11:48:00 - [48] Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen Edited by: Vmir Gallahasen on 11/08/2010 06:13:46 Originally by: Von Kroll You (or your character at least) have been around the game long enough that you should know better. Oh well, I'm not here to change your mind. Are you another EFT armchair Blops pilot? 'Hey, look what it can do with an ECM burst!'. Seriously? You'd waste a slot on an ECM burst to break (not jam) the locks of other ships including your allies which all jumped in with you? Once every 30 seconds? If you thought that was a good idea, you certainly wouldn't be in any black ops gang with me. Yep, you made me--EFT warrior to the bone. I don't understand why you're getting so antagonistic. We were all having a fairly civil discussion here. We were talking about capabilities and uses. Not some lock-step, pigeon-holed role defined by the FOTM club. Yes I do know what an ECM Burst does to friendly locks, so ultimately, there must be some other use that I'm thinking of that you aren't. And, don't worry. I can safely say that you'll never have to worry about flying in a BO gang with me.
Vmir Gallahasen Gallente The Darkness Within Death Rhubarb	Posted - 2010.08.11 12:56:00 - [49] Originally by: Von Kroll We were talking about capabilities and uses. Not some lock-step, pigeon-holed role defined by the FOTM club. Yes I do know what an ECM Burst does to friendly locks, so ultimately, there must be some other use that I'm thinking of that you aren't. I'm just tired of the 'they're fine! but I don't actually fly one' crowd. They're not fine. Fly one and see. I'd love to hear more about this other use you're talking about, by the way. I honestly can't think of any use for an ECM Burst in a crowd of friendlies that will be clustered tightly around you when you're in a superior fleet attacking an inferior fleet, which is the only condition Blops are used in. Or what any use outside of that would be worth risking a 500m isk hull in when there's a 40m isk hull that'll do almost the same thing
Von Kroll Caldari m3 Corp R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.11 15:31:00 - [50] Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen Originally by: Von Kroll We were talking about capabilities and uses. Not some lock-step, pigeon-holed role defined by the FOTM club. Yes I do know what an ECM Burst does to friendly locks, so ultimately, there must be some other use that I'm thinking of that you aren't. I'm just tired of the 'they're fine! but I don't actually fly one' crowd. They're not fine. Fly one and see. I'd love to hear more about this other use you're talking about, by the way. I honestly can't think of any use for an ECM Burst in a crowd of friendlies that will be clustered tightly around you when you're in a superior fleet attacking an inferior fleet, which is the only condition Blops are used in. Or what any use outside of that would be worth risking a 500m isk hull in when there's a 40m isk hull that'll do almost the same thing Look, I don't pretend to know all the answers about BO employment. I have flown in and have been the victim of BO/CovOps gangs, so I know all about the conventional uses. All we started discussing were some of the other, less conventional uses or potential uses. I believe there are a number of ways they could be used away from the normal CovOps Hot Drop you see so much. Yes, in those cases, you do typically get a larger BO gang taking on a smaller victim or victim gang. Once, Noir dropped about 8 BO on a PXF gang I was in, and they didn't outnumber us. They quickly mopped up those of us that couldn't escape. I'm in the Widow camp, which is what the OP started this thread about anyway. I don't know if your BO of choice needs to be different. I like the Widow and the capabilities it has. YMMV.
Frozean	Posted - 2010.08.11 15:36:00 - [51] Ymmv? your mum mutha vucka? o.o''
Von Kroll Caldari m3 Corp R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.08.12 01:00:00 - [52] YMMV = Your mileage may vary... aka your experience may differ from mine...

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