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Interesting case about movable plex.

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Higgs Foton hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.08.09 10:30:00 - [1] Lets say some dude buys 1200 euro's/dollars worth of plex, and undocks in a kestrel. I blow up said kestrel, and the plex cards drop, and i get my filthy hands on them. I decide to use them to get me 6 years of free EVE online for mememememe ALONE! Could this be considered robbery? And would it be possible to take legal action against me irl because technically i stole 1200 euro's/dollars from some other dude? Could people with some legal background provide more thought about this? It would be funny to read about people getting arrested for blowing up people in a spacegame and taking their stuff. :D ___________________________________
RaTTuS BIG Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.08.09 10:34:00 - [2] >Lets say some dude buys 1200 euro's/dollars worth of plex, and undocks in a kestrel. or a Mothership or a titan or a pimped out maurader >I blow up said kestrel , or t2 print , or etc... >Could this be considered robbery? No > And would it be possible to take legal action against me irl because technically i stole 1200 euro's/dollars from some other dude? no because you haven't had anything stolen CCP own everything in eve-o --
Dan O'Connor Cerberus Network Dignitas.	Posted - 2010.08.09 10:35:00 - [3] Originally by: Higgs Foton Lets say some dude buys 1200 euro's/dollars worth of plex, and undocks in a kestrel. I blow up said kestrel, and the plex cards drop, and i get my filthy hands on them. I decide to use them to get me 6 years of free EVE online for mememememe ALONE! Could this be considered robbery? And would it be possible to take legal action against me irl because technically i stole 1200 euro's/dollars from some other dude? Could people with some legal background provide more thought about this? It would be funny to read about people getting arrested for blowing up people in a spacegame and taking their stuff. :D Ultimately you would have looted a wreck, as you would with anything else. Seeing that PLEXes are no longer considered a special item, they also don't get special treatment no more. If those would have dropped, you could have taken them without any further impact other than a 15 minute timer. <My tools> CCP Zymurgist > lol thats great Dan O'connor
Khors Amtek Inc	Posted - 2010.08.09 10:39:00 - [4] Now, imagine the pilot was black.
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.08.09 10:42:00 - [5] Originally by: Khors Now, imagine the pilot was black. But no, all in game items belong to CCP. You just get to use them. So basically CCP can do whatever they want with the in game items. They would be legally allowed even to steal the PLEX from your hangar and give it all to T20. My problem was never with the legality of destructible PLEX, but with the ethics of it.
Higgs Foton hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.08.09 10:49:00 - [6] Originally by: Khors Now, imagine the pilot was black. Lando Calrisian? I personally think this could be an act of robbery. Lets say this happens, and the victim (black or not) goes complain to CCP who respond "Our logs show nothing" on which the victim will respond "My lawyer shows you this certified letter". Offcourse this would be settled by court to establish if it is indeed theft and robbery, but given that plex cards can be bought for real money i think there is a good change a judge will rule blowing up kestrels with plex cards an act of robbery. Could someone with proper legal background provide some interesting thoughts on this? I find this fascinating. The though of people getting arrested for blowing up internet spaceships is really fascinating. People going all "stuff belongs to CCP" are not providing the answers i am looking for. I think this argument will not hold up in court, but i could be wrong. Come on! We must have judges and lawyers playing this game. ___________________________________
wizard87	Posted - 2010.08.09 10:49:00 - [7] I'm no legal expert, but I know for a fact that YOU as a consumer of the CCP product are not liable if that product has a harmful impact on someone else. The beef would be with the -$1200 dollar "someone" and CCP for their product failing them, which I'm pretty sure CCP have covered by their EULA and legal team.
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2010.08.09 10:50:00 - [8] Originally by: Aerilis Originally by: Khors Now, imagine the pilot was black. But no, all in game items belong to CCP. You just get to use them. So basically CCP can do whatever they want with the in game items. They would be legally allowed even to steal the PLEX from your hangar and give it all to T20. My problem was never with the legality of destructible PLEX, but with the ethics of it. Ethics? In my EVE?
RaTTuS BIG Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.08.09 10:53:00 - [9] Originally by: Higgs Foton People going all "stuff belongs to CCP" are not providing the answers i am looking for. I think this argument will not hold up in court, but i could be wrong. Come on! We must have judges and lawyers playing this game. just because it is not the answer you are looking for does not mean it is the right one. no it is not theft you can sell stuff and make isk and then buy plex - does this means you can sue when you lose anything in the game - no, one it has been converted into a game item it is property of CCP and can nuked --
Higgs Foton hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.08.09 10:57:00 - [10] Originally by: wizard87 The beef would be with the -$1200 dollar "someone" and CCP for their product failing them, which I'm pretty sure CCP have covered by their EULA and legal team. Maybe so, maybe not. But in the Netherlands if a judge finds that the EULA breaks someone's legal rights the judge will null and void the rules on that in the EULA for that specific case. EULA doesn't mean **** when someone can convince a court this to be theft. ___________________________________
Vee Raa Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2010.08.09 10:58:00 - [11] The next guy who kills me in Counterstrike should land on the electric chair.
Atticus Fynch Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:00:00 - [12] Edited by: Atticus Fynch on 09/08/2010 11:01:07 The legal hook may be in that the player payed EVE for real-life time in the game. You wont get it if your plex is stolen so in effect CCP has defaulted on their agreement with you. The court will recognize real life money but not play money. So in game plex is just a contract of your agreement with CCP. EDIT: Also there is no disclaimer by CCP that they will not refund your plex, so YES you may have a case.
Aerilis Gallente Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:03:00 - [13] Originally by: Destination SkillQueue Originally by: Aerilis Originally by: Khors Now, imagine the pilot was black. But no, all in game items belong to CCP. You just get to use them. So basically CCP can do whatever they want with the in game items. They would be legally allowed even to steal the PLEX from your hangar and give it all to T20. My problem was never with the legality of destructible PLEX, but with the ethics of it. Ethics? In my EVE? Not in your Eve, in the rl corporate environment that you give $15 to (directly or indirectly through PLEX) to every month.
spytoon	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:09:00 - [14] LOLs this is funny and typical of the trolls/idiots and those that just want their thoughts on a page. No one has a clue. There is no legal details for this one and you could technically take legal action in any country as this game is available there. I think that the term is liability shopping or something. A case could be made, but it would have more chance of winning if you were very new and did not know the mechanics of the game and you could prove that the details were never properly explained to you. This is a perfect thread for showing just what a foolfest EVE forums are
Higgs Foton hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:13:00 - [15] Originally by: Atticus Fynch Edited by: Atticus Fynch on 09/08/2010 11:01:07 The legal hook may be in that the player payed EVE for real-life time in the game. You wont get it if your plex is stolen so in effect CCP has defaulted on their agreement with you. The court will recognize real life money but not play money. So in game plex is just a contract of your agreement with CCP. EDIT: Also there is no disclaimer by CCP that they will not refund your plex, so YES you may have a case. So, it would be entirely possible that the guy who just got blown up with the plex cards got them all refunded? If that's the case no harm has been done. But if the plex cards are lost or taken and used by another player without refunding i think a victim would have a pretty good case in court. Also if the cards get refunded this also means CCP has to take the plex cards away from the gankers because this could lead to a nice moneymaking mechanic. :D Could also be that plex cards always get destroyed when ship is ganked to make it possible to refund them. Would be the smart thing i guess, but then again, maybe i am wrong. ___________________________________
Marlona Sky D00M. Excessum Messor	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:17:00 - [16] With all the recent unflatering publicity EVE has been getting, it would not suprise me if this hits the news and is spun in a negative way.
Vicar2008	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:19:00 - [17] something like this? Cynosural Field Generator I 1 2.25 M Fitted - Mid slot Value Invulnerability Field I 2 170.00 K Fixed Parallel Link-Capacitor I 1 10.01 K Fitted - Low slot Value Expanded Cargohold I 1 1.00 K Inertia Stabilizers II 1 560.00 K Fitted - Rig slot Value Small Low Friction Nozzle Joints I 3 936.00 K Cargo Bay Value 30 Day Pilot's License Extension (PLEX) 74 21,755.93 M Damage taken: 251 Total Module Loss: 21,757,031,852.00 Total Module Drop: 2,821,007.00 Ship Loss: 212,500.00 Total Loss: 21,760,065,359.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:26:00 - [18] Originally by: Higgs Foton Lets say some dude buys 1200 euro's/dollars worth of plex, and undocks in a kestrel. I blow up said kestrel, and the plex cards drop, and i get my filthy hands on them. I decide to use them to get me 6 years of free EVE online for mememememe ALONE! Could this be considered robbery? And would it be possible to take legal action against me irl because technically i stole 1200 euro's/dollars from some other dude? Could people with some legal background provide more thought about this? It would be funny to read about people getting arrested for blowing up people in a spacegame and taking their stuff. :D Let's say I go in to a casino and start playing poker, and this guy at the table makes me think he has a fantastic hand and I fold when my share of the pot is $1200. The it turns out he only had a pair of threes. Could some people with legal background tell me if I have a case for fraud? <srslythough> EVE is explicitly marketed as a PVP game, and full loss and looting are established game mechanics. The dude in the Kestrel has no more case against CCP or The Orphanage than a football player has a case of robbery with assault when he gets tackled and loses the ball. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Eclorc	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:28:00 - [19] The whole thing smacks to me of intentional by-design fraud. When you redeem plex, you can put it back again into the redeemable items box again, thus it is still a paid-for-time contract. It was a conscious design decision to not allow that item to be redeemed from another location afterwards. To allow undocking with PLEX in cargo, again another conscious design decision, which sorta makes sense, but smells bad given the previous note about forced redeeming at one location only, thereby forcing undock-if-move-needed. The conscious decision to defraud customers is in allowing the PLEX to be destroyed. These items represent, whatever you argue, real-world paid-for game time. They should drop 100% and not be destroyable. Anything else is fraud in my book.
Gerry Mack	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:31:00 - [20] In the UK there is a legal basis to challenge the EULA if it allows the theft of real money. It is called 'The unfair Contract Terms Act' and I think it dates from 1971. I believe the EULA would be considered an unfair contract and would make the ensuing court action quite interesting. So, who's first?
Isten Baba	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:41:00 - [21] I don't want to be unkind or disrespectful here, but could could people without a clue about legal issues refrain from giving their "opinions" on whether it's illegal or not? As has been pointed out in other threads, there is absolutely no legal basis to consider it robbery, to sue, or anything else like that. It is not a contract between you and CCP. From a legal perspective, it is an ingame item, just like the Kestrel or a unit of veldspar. The only situation in which you could (theoretically) sue CCP is if they do not let you redeem the item when it is still in your possession.
Atticus Fynch Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:44:00 - [22] Originally by: Marlona Sky With all the recent unflatering publicity EVE has been getting, it would not suprise me if this hits the news and is spun in a negative way. Already there.
Richard Christy	Posted - 2010.08.09 11:59:00 - [23] Fool, money, easily, parted. etc.

CCP Navigator C C P C C P Alliance	Posted - 2010.08.09 12:24:00 - [24] There is a 14 page thread already discussing this kill and having duplicates is not really necessary. Locked. Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online


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