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Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.08.12 19:40:00 - [61] Originally by: stoicfaux Which great right up until the pure isk faucet causes rampant inflation and makes everyone go back to MR'ing for loot, minerals, and lp store items. Yeah well its not like I can't mission run with the best of them. Might as well make roughly equivalent ISK with way less effort/book keeping IMO. ;-) -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.12 19:45:00 - [62] Originally by: Jack Simple I would rather get paid an extra 2000xLP per mission instead of having to deal with converting LP. àwhich is (kind of) why you won't. The LP→ISK conversion means that you're not introducing even more ISK into the economy than you already do ù in fact, it many cases it means that ISK is being siphoned off ù and it means that you are subject to the vagaries of a PvP market. Both of these are good things, whereas removing them in favour of just spewing out a crapload more ISKà isn't. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Elbie Klep	Posted - 2010.08.12 20:37:00 - [63] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Elbie Klep How is 8800 possible in hisec? I just tried a Q+18 agent and that raised my LPs to 6225. How's your personal standing towards that agent compared to your old one? Do you still have all the relevant skills at V? If it's a different division, the skills you need will have changed. Was it one of the "maxed-out LP" missions? I had efffective standing of 10.0 for both and they were both from the same NPC. I have L5 in all the social skills related to all divisions with kill missions. The mission was WC, so it was maxed.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.08.12 20:42:00 - [64] Originally by: Elbie Klep I had efffective standing of 10.0 for both and they were both from the same NPC. I have L5 in all the social skills related to all divisions with kill missions. The mission was WC, so it was maxed. You're missing something related to that agent, then. WC gives me my full 7116, and as mentioned, I don't have anything except (maybe) agent standing maxed out. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.13 04:12:00 - [65] OP your numbers are great and realistic. I once saw someone post they could make 100 mil an hour from doing "The Assault". They could complete it in 6 minutes and make 10 mil, so obviously this is 100 mil an hour. People also think that 50% moar dps means 50% faster mission completion time. ****ing legendary math skills. This is clearly a signature.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.08.13 04:58:00 - [66] Originally by: Cipher Jones OP your numbers are great and realistic. I once saw someone post they could make 100 mil an hour from doing "The Assault". They could complete it in 6 minutes and make 10 mil, so obviously this is 100 mil an hour. People also think that 50% moar dps means 50% faster mission completion time. **ing legendary math skills. Man, you work pretty hard to misrepresent people's points of view. -Liang -- Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.13 05:02:00 - [67] Edited by: Cipher Jones on 13/08/2010 05:03:04 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Cipher Jones OP your numbers are great and realistic. I once saw someone post they could make 100 mil an hour from doing "The Assault". They could complete it in 6 minutes and make 10 mil, so obviously this is 100 mil an hour. People also think that 50% moar dps means 50% faster mission completion time. **ing legendary math skills. Man, you work pretty hard to misrepresent people's points of view. -Liang Just because you are the resident forum *** does not mean every post I make is about you. In this particular case, It was not you that I am quoting. I am quite sure that it was someone else misquoting you. The point however, is they actually believe that they can make 100 million isk per hour doing the assault. See, I didn't have to do any work at all. One of your fanbois did it for me. This is clearly a signature.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.08.13 07:27:00 - [68] Originally by: Cipher Jones Just because you are the resident forum *** does not mean every post I make is about you. In this particular case, It was not you that I am quoting. Nice, maybe we'll make some progress on that attitude then. :p Quote:** I am quite sure that it was someone else misquoting you. The point however, is they actually believe that they can make 100 million isk per hour doing the assault. They could... if that was all they did. Which would be a neat trick. Heh. Quote: See, I didn't have to do any work at all. One of your fanbois did it for me. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Abdiel Kavash Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.08.13 08:05:00 - [69] "Sir, do you know how fast were you driving?" "?" "60 miles in an hour." "Impossible! I've just left my house, I couldn't have been driving for more than five minutes!" ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real!
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.08.13 10:57:00 - [70] Originally by: Cipher Jones ... Basically this, people WANT to get nice isk/h numbers /for different reasons - bragging, showing that they are right, that l4s give too much isk etc./. So they just adjust isk/h calculation to their needs. Who cares in reality they spend much more time on it when numbers look good on forums. For example liangs magical buy/sell orders that always stay on top without spending ANY time to update them. Ofc, i too can make 100m+/h missioning - i can do first pocket of recon 1/3 in 5mins and it gives me around 9,5m in bounties = 114m/h = magic.
stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.08.13 12:28:00 - [71] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Originally by: Cipher Jones ... Basically this, people WANT to get nice isk/h numbers /for different reasons - bragging, showing that they are right, that l4s give too much isk etc./. So they just adjust isk/h calculation to their needs. Who cares in reality they spend much more time on it when numbers look good on forums. Ok, what parameters/conditions/accounting methods would you use to accurately track mission running income? How about counting 100% of bounties, 100% of mission isk rewards, 1 isk/lp, and 1% of reprocessed loot mineral value? All mission times are doubled to account for the overhead of swapping hardeners, ships, and or buying ammo? Propose an accounting system to potentially solve/fix any perceived problems and quit with the non-productive whinging. You could take Kerfira's spreadsheet and tweak the numbers to add in the amount of overhead you think is required. Then we could have something concrete to prove/disprove/discuss/debate. Quote: For example liangs magical buy/sell orders that always stay on top without spending ANY time to update them. The orders don't have to stay on top 100% of the time. It's not that difficult to create buy/sell orders that require little to no updating and will still be filled. Plus, create a market alt parked in a hub. Quote: Ofc, i too can make 100m+/h missioning - i can do first pocket of recon 1/3 in 5mins and it gives me around 9,5m in bounties = 114m/h = magic. Weak. There's a level 4 courier mission you can run in a second if you keep a small stack of the really cheap delivery item in your hangar. What exactly are you attacking here? Do you really think folks are leaving out the low paying missions out of the data sets in order to inflate the numbers? ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
King Aires Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.08.13 13:46:00 - [72] I agree with Cipher. The point he is making is it is not how much isk per hour you make doing missions. It is how long can you make xIsk per x Hours. Making 100mil and hour does you no good if your only able to sustain that for 30 minutes. The views expressed above are not those of my corp or an expression of where my corp stands.
stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.08.13 15:04:00 - [73] Edited by: stoicfaux on 13/08/2010 15:04:51 Originally by: King Aires I agree with Cipher. The point he is making is it is not how much isk per hour you make doing missions. It is how long can you make xIsk per x Hours. Making 100mil and hour does you no good if your only able to sustain that for 30 minutes. Eh? That makes no sense. Yes, you need a large enough sample size of missions to validate claims of 100M isk/hour. However, it doesn't matter if you mission for 30 minutes, wait a couple of days and then mission for an hour. What matters is that the time you spent missioning will earn you an average amount of isk/hour. However, if you're grinding eight hours of missions, then, yes it will be difficult to convert those eight hours of lp and loot into isk in hour nine. I don't think anyone is saying that lp and loot to isk is an instant process. You will normally need to setup buy/sell orders with a couple weeks duration. Would it be better to say that missioning can generate X million isk/hour in assets? of which W% is liquid, and Y% will take Z time to convert to isk? ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.08.13 15:05:00 - [74] - take kerfiras spreadsheet? Why? It was made from the start to show that "l4s make too much isk..." No sane person would consider it reliable source for anything. - if orders are not on top, items dont sell /buy/. Easy. If you are thinking they will sell eventually... yes, there are no other mission runners who want to sell their lp store items or buy tags they need. - recon was just example. While 114m/h looks nice, in reality i made only 9,5m. - yes, i really think that most people are leaving out many things from their calculations, intentionally or not /take frozean for example, but liangs self selling items are good too/ Btw first good step to get reliable numbers would be to differentiate between missioning income and trade income.
King Aires Reliables Inc Majesta Empire	Posted - 2010.08.13 15:41:00 - [75] Originally by: stoicfaux Edited by: stoicfaux on 13/08/2010 15:04:51 Originally by: King Aires I agree with Cipher. The point he is making is it is not how much isk per hour you make doing missions. It is how long can you make xIsk per x Hours. Making 100mil and hour does you no good if your only able to sustain that for 30 minutes. Eh? That makes no sense. Yes, you need a large enough sample size of missions to validate claims of 100M isk/hour. However, it doesn't matter if you mission for 30 minutes, wait a couple of days and then mission for an hour. What matters is that the time you spent missioning will earn you an average amount of isk/hour. However, if you're grinding eight hours of missions, then, yes it will be difficult to convert those eight hours of lp and loot into isk in hour nine. I don't think anyone is saying that lp and loot to isk is an instant process. You will normally need to setup buy/sell orders with a couple weeks duration. Would it be better to say that missioning can generate X million isk/hour in assets? of which W% is liquid, and Y% will take Z time to convert to isk? The problem with this thinking is, the situation changes with amount of time. Take this as an example. I make 100m/isk an hour on this mission I make 70m/isk an hour for an hours worth of missions I made 250mil isk running missions for 5 hours. These are common statements found in threads about missions. The above shows you people's thought process when it comes to missions. Only one of the three statements shows you an accurate description of how much you can make running missions. Stoic, your a pretty smart guy, you know the difference between making 100m/hour and having made 250mil after 5 hours of work. The views expressed above are not those of my corp or an expression of where my corp stands.
Elbie Klep	Posted - 2010.08.13 16:05:00 - [76] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Elbie Klep I had efffective standing of 10.0 for both and they were both from the same NPC. I have L5 in all the social skills related to all divisions with kill missions. The mission was WC, so it was maxed. You're missing something related to that agent, then. WC gives me my full 7116, and as mentioned, I don't have anything except (maybe) agent standing maxed out. The big question is: what am I missing? I looked at EVEopedia and it says that LP depend only on base Q and level. That is clearly wrong because improving social sckills (e.g., Mil connections) does improve LPs for the same agent. I think the documenation is wrong and LPs depend on effective Q. But mine is 48 out of a possible 55 and it seems strange the another 7 points would boost me from 6225 to 8800. So I think there is another dependence besides effective Q. I would suspect system security since my current Q18 agent is in a 0.7 system. But I've run agents with the same base Q in 0.8 and 0.5 and the only difference was in loot/salvage and bounties. (Though that was awhile ago and I might not remember it correctly.)
Sazuka Kirr Caldari Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings	Posted - 2010.08.13 16:11:00 - [77] Edited by: Sazuka Kirr on 13/08/2010 16:16:30 Originally by: Elbie Klep I looked at EVEopedia and it says that LP depend only on base Q and level. No it doesn't: Quote: Low vs. High Security Systems The security level of the system in which you are running missions greatly affects the rewards you receive. You will receive higher mission payouts and greater LP amounts the lower the system security level. The highest quality level four agents are all located outside of secure Empire space. Quote: Divisional Connection Skills Each agent belongs to a agent division and each division has two related Divisional Connection skills as shown in the table below. These Divisional Connections skill books are only available through LP Stores or at high prices on the market. The increase to the mission LP offered can be calculated with the following formula: -EDIT- Also, read my response to your other thread here. -EDIT 2- Also, try reading this. Don't expect any updates on it though. He kinda emoragequit when I resubbed my accounts and told him I was doing it to play EVE, rather than to sell my accounts so he could buy a mothership.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.08.13 17:52:00 - [78] Originally by: King Aires The problem with this thinking is, the situation changes with amount of time. Take this as an example. I make 100m/isk an hour on this mission I make 70m/isk an hour for an hours worth of missions I made 250mil isk running missions for 5 hours. Confirming that I exceed 75M ISK/hr in highsec measured by your final statement. I also prefer the form "How much time do I have to waste grinding missions to buy a plex and fit a new Archon?" I think it's important to phrase it in such a way, because it really shows why it's important to mission quickly and efficiently. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.08.13 18:05:00 - [79] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 - take kerfiras spreadsheet? Why? It was made from the start to show that "l4s make too much isk..." No sane person would consider it reliable source for anything. It's useful because it provides a decent level of transparency. Quote: - if orders are not on top, items dont sell /buy/. Easy. If you are thinking they will sell eventually... yes, there are no other mission runners who want to sell their lp store items or buy tags they need. Your ignorance is staggering. Quote: - yes, i really think that most people are leaving out many things from their calculations, intentionally or not /take frozean for example, but liangs self selling items are good too/ I want to be extremely clear here. My process is to haul my phat lewtz to a nearby market hub and put them up on the market/create a contract. I never look at the order again, and they do sell. I'm not really sure what in the ** you think you're talking about. Quote: Btw first good step to get reliable numbers would be to differentiate between missioning income and trade income. Yeah, no . Maybe if you bothered to read this forum beyond to say "I CAN'T DO IT THEREFORE I THINK YOU CAN'T EITHER!!!!" you would see that I've repeatedly made my stance on this very clear (Using buy orders to calculate your ISK/LP is pretty shady, for example). -Liang -- Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Frozean	Posted - 2010.08.13 18:23:00 - [80] I can make 200m isk/hour doing The assault But i only make 66m isk/hour doing It takes 6-7 hours for me to make 550m. Therefore on average my real Isk/hour is 85-86m isk/hour Thats how i base my calculations. I dont see how anyone can get less then 25m isk/hour unless they really are in a subpar ship, doing Q-18 missions, in 1.0 space, with absulotely no social skills, and exchanging all the LP to faction Battleships. i dunno. but im pretty sure the bounty and reward itself will exceed 25.
Roboplegic Amarr	Posted - 2010.08.13 19:29:00 - [81] Originally by: Frozean I can make 200m isk/hour doing The assault But i only make 66m isk/hour doing It takes 6-7 hours for me to make 550m. Therefore on average my real Isk/hour is 85-86m isk/hour Thats how i base my calculations. I dont see how anyone can get less then 25m isk/hour unless they really are in a subpar ship, doing Q-18 missions, in 1.0 space, with absulotely no social skills, and exchanging all the LP to faction Battleships. i dunno. but im pretty sure the bounty and reward itself will exceed 25. i smell utter bull****
stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.08.13 19:44:00 - [82] Originally by: Roboplegic i smell utter bull**** Or that smell is from you talking out your ass. Next time, post some reasons as to why you're calling BS. ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
Elbie Klep	Posted - 2010.08.13 20:21:00 - [83] Originally by: Sazuka Kirr Edited by: Sazuka Kirr on 13/08/2010 16:16:30 Originally by: Elbie Klep I looked at EVEopedia and it says that LP depend only on base Q and level. No it doesn't: Note those quotes are in direct contradiction to the paragraph titled "Agent Quality" Silly me, that is where I looked to find out about how agent quality was computed. Quote: Also, try reading http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1349763this[/url. That is exactly what I was looking for. It is consistent with all the observations (if one assumes he had the relevant social skills maxed). Thank you
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.13 20:27:00 - [84] Originally by: Liang Nuren Nice, maybe we'll make some progress on that attitude then. :p Its not an "attitude" when you put it in your sig. Its simply agreeing with you. This is clearly a signature.
Caius Sivaris Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2010.08.16 13:33:00 - [85] Originally by: Elbie Klep Originally by: GyokZoli Originally by: Elbie Klep the max of 5741 LPs for the agent Now this is a big problem, you work for the wrong agent. The maximum LP I get is around 8180 from one, and 8800 from an other agent in hisec. How is 8800 possible in hisec? I just tried a Q+18 agent and that raised my LPs to 6225. That's an 8% increase from the Q+13 agent I used for my statistics. The highest Q for kill mission agents in hisec is 20, so that should only increase by another 3% or so. That would be about 6500 LPs. In both cases I had agent and NPC standings at 10.0 and the relevant social skills were all L5. So how do you get 8800 out of an agent? You seriously ignore the fact that the system sec status got an influence? Plenty of Q>16 agents in 0.5 systems.
Roboplegic Amarr	Posted - 2010.08.16 14:36:00 - [86] Originally by: stoicfaux Originally by: Roboplegic i smell utter bull** Or that smell is from you talking out your ass. Next time, post some reasons as to why you're calling BS. Reason: becuase your ****ed
Elbie Klep	Posted - 2010.08.16 16:14:00 - [87] Originally by: Caius Sivaris Originally by: Elbie Klep So how do you get 8800 out of an agent? You seriously ignore the fact that the system sec status got an influence? Plenty of Q>16 agents in 0.5 systems. You are right, I had no idea that system security was the dominant factor in LP grants. However, I scanned every corp in Agent Finder and there are exactly seven (7) agents of Q18 that provide >=50% kill missions in 0.5 systems and there are no Q19 or Q20 agents in 0.5 systems offering kill missions. The best you can do with a Q18/0.5 agent is about 8100 LP for a mission like WC (using the empirical formula provided). So I still don't understand how one gets 8800 LPs out of a high sec agent for kill missions. [To make matters worse, only two of those Q18/0.5 agents are > 2 jumps from losec systems, which is a problem under the new policy of sending missioners to the least populated systems. So hisec does not seem to be overlowing with 8000+ LP agents for kill missions.]
SirRalph Minmatar Nomadic Freelancers	Posted - 2010.08.16 16:16:00 - [88] Originally by: Elbie Klep I have not actually cashed in the LPs yet, so I used 2000 ISK/LP to compute the value of the LPs. lol
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.08.16 16:29:00 - [89] Originally by: Elbie Klep You are right, I had no idea that system security was the dominant factor in LP grants. However, I scanned every corp in Agent Finder and there are exactly seven (7) agents of Q18 that provide >=50% kill missions in 0.5 systems and there are no Q19 or Q20 agents in 0.5 systems offering kill missions. The best you can do with a Q18/0.5 agent is about 8100 LP for a mission like WC (using the empirical formula provided). So I still don't understand how one gets 8800 LPs out of a high sec agent for kill missions. [To make matters worse, only two of those Q18/0.5 agents are > 2 jumps from losec systems, which is a problem under the new policy of sending missioners to the least populated systems. So hisec does not seem to be overlowing with 8000+ LP agents for kill missions.] It sounds like you're trying to mission for RSS out of Ylandoki/Korama... not such a hot idea. I missioned out of there for a while - I think I made ~60M ISK/hr there. Moving out of that hellhole will really help a lot. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog

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