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Elbie Klep
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Posted - 2010.08.10 22:01:00 -
[1]
There have been a lot of assertions about the economics of mission running that have bothered me. So I decided to collect some hard data that is summarized here.
Context: 32 consecutive missions for an L4 Q+13 Internal Security agent in hisec space. All were kill missions run in a cruise CNR. All were run without blitzing and all were salvaged. Both agent and NPC quality were at 10.0 and I have maxed the relevant social skills so I got maximum payoffs and LPs. (I could have done slightly better with a Q+20 agent.) I also have maxed my combat skills for the CNR.
Total agent reward + bounties: 170.034 million.
Total LPs acquired: 87657.
Total LP equivalent ISK value: 175.314 million.
Total mission value: 345.348 million.
Total minutes (request-to-complete buttons) running the missions: 822.
ISK/hr for mission running: 25.207 million
Total salvage value: 255.777 million.
Total minutes for salvaging: 402.
ISK/hr for salvaging: 38.175 million.
I have not actually cashed in the LPs yet, so I used 2000 ISK/LP to compute the value of the LPs. That number is probably high and represents the maximum possible return on LPs at the most favorable store in New Eden. (Which store is the most profitable store will vary over time with the EVE markets.) A more plausible number would be 1500 ISK/LP.
[Note that currently the most profitable conversion is to buy BPCs from the store and manufacture the items for sale in the contract markets. However, if one does that, one should factor in the time spent for manufacturing and contract management as part of the denominator when computing mission ISK/hr.]
I sold the salvage at the current buy prices in Jita. That probably substantially understates the value of the salvage, especially for things like tags, insignias, and low grade implants where the buy prices are usually low-ball prices hoping for a quick profit from noobs. If I had taken the time to shop around and manage sell orders, I probably could have made 15-20% more. [That time would have detracted from ISK/hr unless I batched up several months of mission running, which is my normal practice. This was only about two weeks' worth of mission running.]
The bltizing ISK/hr would have been higher because the number of minutes would be less. However, it would probably not be that much better. The only mission in the sample where entire rooms could be skipped was WC and that only showed up once in 32 missions. My gut feeeling is that bltizing would have yielded an ISK/hr for the mission running of 30-35 million/hr, which would still be less than the value of salvaging. (If I get ambitious I may run another 32 missions in pure blitz mode.)
Myth 1: you can earn 70+ million ISK/hr running L4 missions. Perhaps so, but only in losec space. The reality is that there were several junky missions in this sample. (20% yielded LPs < 2000 and only 34% yielded the max of 5741 LPs for the agent.) One can't decline all the bad ones without a major standings hit.
Myth 2: it is never worthwhile to salvage. This is clearly nonsense. About half the missions had really poor loot/salvage. If they had been skipped, the salvage ISK/hr would have dwarfed the mission returns. Salvaging is really boring and I would normally only salvage the half of the missions that consistently yield top dollar. But that selective payoff is so good it can't be ignored. And people wonder why there are so many Ninja salvagers.
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Julia Venatrix
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Posted - 2010.08.10 22:23:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Julia Venatrix on 10/08/2010 22:23:14
What security status is the system in which your agent is located?
What actual missions did you run?
I am not a Caldari expert, but it is my understanding that cruise CNR is significantly outperformed by a number of other ships for missioning. Can you repeat with a pimped Golem?
---
Some days you are the pigeon, and some the statue. |
Takseen
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Posted - 2010.08.10 22:51:00 -
[3]
I thought blitzing referred to completing a mission by killing only the bare minimum number of rats and tanking the rest?
Also, did you do a lot of faction/drone missions? Because your bounties per hour looks rather low(as in not much higher than my puny T1 sentry domi)
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Noun Verber
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.08.10 22:56:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Julia Venatrix
Edited by: Julia Venatrix on 10/08/2010 22:23:14
What security status is the system in which your agent is located?
What actual missions did you run?
I am not a Caldari expert, but it is my understanding that cruise CNR is significantly outperformed by a number of other ships for missioning. Can you repeat with a pimped Golem?
I understand that the Caldari line goes Raven->CNR->Golem, so I think the OP chose an appropriate ship to get averages
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Mark Hampton
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Posted - 2010.08.10 23:35:00 -
[5]
32 missions.
Total minutes for salvaging: 402.
It took you 12 minutes to salvage each mission? Was this just salvage of large ships? No looting? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.08.11 00:06:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Tippia on 11/08/2010 00:07:54
Originally by: Elbie Klep
Both agent and NPC quality were at 10.0 and I have maxed the relevant social skills so I got maximum payoffs and LPs. (I could have done slightly better with a Q+20 agent.)
[à]
34% yielded the max of 5741 LPs for the agent.
"Slightly better"?
My Q+18 agent, without top skills, and without] everything at 10.0 maxes out at 7116 LP ù that's 24% more and still not even close to what I could get from that agentà
Also, your reward+bounty areà wonky. I generally get your total ISK/h just from those two ù add in the LP, and I get another ~50% on top of that. So, yeah. 
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.08.11 00:36:00 -
[7]
To be blunt, your methods are flawed, your data set is very small, your testing conditions a bit too vague, and your conclusions are badly formed and based on too many flaws to be considered valid.
Two other people have done this and kept much better numbers and methodology. If you want to keep metrics, then I highly recommend that you read the following threads, and at least use Kerfira's spreadsheet as a base for tracking your mission income.
Statistics for L4 high-sec mission income
Statistics for L4 high-sec mission income - Efficient Edition
Statistics for L4 high-sec mission income -- Mark II
Statistics for L4 high-sec mission income - Mark III
Quote:
32 consecutive missions for an L4 Q+13
Total LPs acquired: 87657.
87,657 / 32 = 2,739 lp per mission. That's low. Double your LP gain and your income goes up to 50M/hr (at 2,000 isk/lp). You might want to read this recent thread: Effect of Agent Quality and System Security Level on LP Reward
-----
"Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you!
-- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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knentil
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Posted - 2010.08.11 00:55:00 -
[8]
Elbie, did you use T2 cruise missiles?
Also what are your missiles skills?
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IR Seriouscat
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Posted - 2010.08.11 01:12:00 -
[9]
With top social skills l4q18 agent in 0.5 system pays 8.3k lp max, so just by having a better agent you can make 44% more on that alone. Then again, agents vary a lot, some give nothing but drone missions, also Guristas and Serpentis are clearly not worth looting/salvaging.
70+m/h on one account running lvl4 missions is not realistically achievable in highsec however 50m/h is, quite easily. |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.08.11 02:03:00 -
[10]
Originally by: IR Seriouscat
70+m/h on one account running lvl4 missions is not realistically achievable in highsec however 50m/h is, quite easily.
I'm pretty sure that it is.
-Liang
--
Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
Blog
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Elbie Klep
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Posted - 2010.08.11 04:19:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Julia Venatrix
Edited by: Julia Venatrix on 10/08/2010 22:23:14
What security status is the system in which your agent is located?
I ran in Korama (0.8). Curiously I get better results there than running another 10.0 agent/NPC in Torrinos(0.5), which is why I moved there recently. But that may be due to agent quality. The Korama agent was +13 while the Torinnos agent was +11.
Quote:
What actual missions did you run?
The Missions were:
Worlds Collide
Buzz Kill (twice)
Duo of Death
Attack of the Drones (twice)
In the Midst of Deadspace (1, 3, 4, 5)
Are You Receiving (1, 2)
Right Hand of Zazzmatazz
Gurista Extravaganza
Rogue Drone Harrassment (twice)
Infiltrated Outposts
Stop the Thief
Angel Extravaganza
Intercept the Sabateurs
War Situation (1, 2)
Smuggler Interception
Cargo Delivery (twice)
Wildcat Strike
Pot and Kettle (1, 2, 4, 5)
The Assault
Massive Attack
There are a lot of crappy missions in this sample, probably somewhat worse than I usually get. But that's the data I collected.
Quote:
I am not a Caldari expert, but it is my understanding that cruise CNR is significantly outperformed by a number of other ships for missioning. Can you repeat with a pimped Golem?
I don't currently run a Golem (I haven't maxed torp spec yet). But I think many of these missions would be better suited to the CNR; lots of rats > 60 Km to wait for. That's why I haven't been in a big rush to get to a Golem
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Elbie Klep
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Posted - 2010.08.11 04:24:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Takseen
I thought blitzing referred to completing a mission by killing only the bare minimum number of rats and tanking the rest?
It does. I did not blitz these missions. Blitzing would have reduced mission run time but it would also reduce bounties and salvage. Note that the best mission for blitzing in the group I ran (see my response to Venatrix) was WC because one can go directly to the research output without firing a shot. But the bounties in that mission are worth a lot more than the LPs.
Quote:
Also, did you do a lot of faction/drone missions? Because your bounties per hour looks rather low(as in not much higher than my puny T1 sentry domi)
See the missions in my Venatrix response. I ran a Domi for years and the CNR is much more efficient for most missions. There seem to be two factors in returns: agent quality, which appears to be more significant than I thought; and the mix of missions the agent provedes, which is highly variable from one agent to another.
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Elbie Klep
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Posted - 2010.08.11 04:29:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Mark Hampton
32 missions.
Total minutes for salvaging: 402.
It took you 12 minutes to salvage each mission? Was this just salvage of large ships? No looting?
My bad. I somehow added wrong. The mind is always the second thing to go. It was actually 534 minutes, which brings the salvage ISK/hr down to 28m/hr.
I salvaged everything. I run a Catalyst with 5 tractors and 3 T2 salvagers. It is significantly faster than the 4/4 T1 configuration most people use, but you have to pay much closer attention and it is harder on the Carpal Tunnel.
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Elbie Klep
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Posted - 2010.08.11 04:31:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 11/08/2010 00:07:54
My Q+18 agent, without top skills, and without] everything at 10.0 maxes out at 7116 LP ù that's 24% more and still not even close to what I could get from that agentà
Also, your reward+bounty areà wonky. I generally get your total ISK/h just from those two ù add in the LP, and I get another ~50% on top of that. So, yeah.
Hmmm. That much effect surprises me; I thought the 50% social boost was the big factor in max LP. That could account for the higher averages reported. I will have to look up the formula.
However, there aren't a lot of agents with Q > 15 and they tend to be in systems like Motsu where there are as many ninja salvagers as there are mission runners. You also tend to get sent 2-3 jumps away because of traffic. I tried one of those systems years ago and IMO it wasn't worth the aggravation, especially when I only run missions when I get bored and need break from other stuff.
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Elbie Klep
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Posted - 2010.08.11 04:35:00 -
[15]
Originally by: stoicfaux
To be blunt, your methods are flawed, your data set is very small, your testing conditions a bit too vague, and your conclusions are badly formed and based on too many flaws to be considered valid.
Two other people have done this and kept much better numbers and methodology. If you want to keep metrics, then I highly recommend that you read the following threads, and at least use Kerfira's spreadsheet as a base for tracking your mission income.
I'm not sure what "better numbers and methodology" there was. He pretty much collected the same data I did -- rewards, bounties, LPs, salvage, and time.
Note that Kerifa initially got a higher percentage of revenue (38%) from salvage than I did. In his second version he was blitzing and <apparently> selectively salvaging (his salvage % of revenue dropped to 22%). That would increase his ISK/hr but he should have had less total revenue for the comparable number of missions. (The benefit of blitzing is running more missions in the same time.) Yet his total revenue stayed the same. Very curious.
Note that main difference between Kerifa's results and mine was that he got more total revenue per mission. (His initial percentages of revenue contribution are very close to my results.) The difference in salvage is probably that he used sell prices while I used buy prices and there has been substantial deflation in EVE over the past year. Apparently agent quality has more to do with LPs than I thought and I am going to have to research that.
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Elbie Klep
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Posted - 2010.08.11 04:38:00 -
[16]
Originally by: knentil
Elbie, did you use T2 cruise missiles?
Also what are your missiles skills?
I use faction cruise missiles. [But I don't get them from the LP store. B-) That would be a very inefficient use of the LPs.]
As I indicated, all the relevant CNR skills are maxed. I have cruise specialization 5 along with all the ROF, signature, etc. skills at L5.
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Frozean
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Posted - 2010.08.11 04:45:00 -
[17]
I can bust myth 1 easily
Nowadays i do 85-86m REAL isk/hour (ie, counted after 7-8 hours missioning, including breaks ETC), with more then 95m isk/hour spreadsheet isk/hour (counting ONLY completion times and avg earning per mission)
this is NOT COUNTING MISSION LOOT !!!
I can post the spreadsheet if you want.
I use a golem+tengu combo in minmatar space, although golem+NM combo works just as well in amarr space
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The Hobbit
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Posted - 2010.08.11 05:36:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Julia Venatrix
Edited by: Julia Venatrix on 10/08/2010 22:23:14
What security status is the system in which your agent is located?
What actual missions did you run?
I am not a Caldari expert, but it is my understanding that cruise CNR is significantly outperformed by a number of other ships for missioning. Can you repeat with a pimped Golem?
Golem do shine against big,close targets. But in the end you count the whole time and it does include waiting/burning in order to get the target in range. CNR doesn't have to do that - just warp in and start shooting.
Btw look at the prices - golems dropped big time. It used to cost over a bil and now it's almost 2 times less and CNR actually went up. I bought mine more that a year ago and it costed me about 300 mil and they got almost 2 times higher.
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Frozean
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Posted - 2010.08.11 06:13:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Frozean on 11/08/2010 06:14:26
Thats why u use Golem + NM/CNR/Tengu combo!
Keep all of them in your station
Switch according to the missions.
Missions with sniping? bring the latter
Missions with brawling? bring the former
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Takseen
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Posted - 2010.08.11 08:06:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Elbie Klep
Originally by: Takseen
I thought blitzing referred to completing a mission by killing only the bare minimum number of rats and tanking the rest?
It does. I did not blitz these missions. Blitzing would have reduced mission run time but it would also reduce bounties and salvage. Note that the best mission for blitzing in the group I ran (see my response to Venatrix) was WC because one can go directly to the research output without firing a shot. But the bounties in that mission are worth a lot more than the LPs.
Quote:
Also, did you do a lot of faction/drone missions? Because your bounties per hour looks rather low(as in not much higher than my puny T1 sentry domi)
See the missions in my Venatrix response. I ran a Domi for years and the CNR is much more efficient for most missions. There seem to be two factors in returns: agent quality, which appears to be more significant than I thought; and the mix of missions the agent provedes, which is highly variable from one agent to another.
Ahh my mistake. On my first read through I thought you were comparing blitzing to looting/salvaging everything.
And as I suspected you had a fairly high incidence of drone/faction missions which is why your bounties/hour seemed low. They also skew the bounty vs looting issue a bit. Since the drone poo/faction tags are essentially the bounties for those missions, its obviously going to make looting seem like higher income compared to the other rewards. I suspect that even when taking a "kill everything and leave the wrecks behind" approach like Kerfira does, its worth it to send a Catalyst back to scoop up the battleship drone compounds and the faction tags.
Also my condolences on you getting Buzz Kill twice in so short a space of time. That mission is really really annoying with all the HACs and few battleships.
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GyokZoli
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.08.11 10:41:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Elbie Klep
the max of 5741 LPs for the agent
Now this is a big problem, you work for the wrong agent. The maximum LP I get is around 8180 from one, and 8800 from an other agent in hisec.
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Richard Christy
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Posted - 2010.08.11 10:58:00 -
[22]
Is "Both agent and NPC quality were at 10.0" a reference to your standing with the agent?
Nice work, btw. I would consider doing something like this. Just need to buy a big stopclock to sit beside me.
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Mister Agreeable
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Posted - 2010.08.11 14:50:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Frozean
Edited by: Frozean on 11/08/2010 04:48:44
I can bust myth 1 easily
Nowadays i do 85-86m REAL isk/hour
I use a golem+tengu combo I forcast approximately 90-95m REAL isk/hour
So what you're making is actually 42-48m/h per pilot. Big deal. Now try making 70m/h per pilot  . I honestly don't think that is possible in highsec, even though Liang thinks otherwise and she's always right.
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.08.11 15:22:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Richard Christy
Nice work, btw. I would consider doing something like this. Just need to buy a big stopclock to sit beside me.
Record the time in a spreadsheet. With OpenOffice I had to find a "TimeNow" macro on the web and then I added it to the Tools menu. Alt-T-T and presto, the time is recorded down to the second.
Originally by: Mister Agreeable
So what you're making is actually 42-48m/h per pilot.
Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Another way to look at it is that the 2nd account puts you 300M isk in the hole (price of a PLEX.) Once you pay off the 300M and once the added firepower lets you catch up with a single account, then you're golden.
Ex: if a 2nd account means you can run missions 50% faster and if we use a 50M isk/hr rate:
50M isk/hr * t = 1.5(50M isk/hr) * t - 300M isk
50t = 75t - 300
25t = 300
t = 12 hours
Single Account: 50M isk/hr * 12 hours = 600M isk
Dual Account: 75M isk/hr * 12 hours - 300M isk = 900M - 300M = 600M isk
So after 12 hours the 2nd account is paid off and you're earning and extra 25M isk/hour over the single account. At 12 hours both accounts earned 50M isk/hour. After 20 hours the dual account earned 60M/hr, and 67.5M/hr after 40 hours.
Quote:
Big deal. Now try making 70m/h per pilot . I honestly don't think that is possible in highsec, even though Liang thinks otherwise and she's always right.
It was possible depending on how you recorded income (mission time versus wall-clock time for example.) I was averaging 1.3M isk/minute on paper (~78M/hr) in a Golem back in May with a 2,000 lp/isk conversion rate. It depends on how fast you can convert lp to isk and how much time you spend swapping ammo and hardeners in the station. Plus nowadays you have to factor in lower salvage prices, the loot nerf, and deflation.
-----
"Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you!
-- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.08.11 17:11:00 -
[25]
Originally by: stoicfaux
how much time you spend swapping ammo and hardeners in the station
This is a killer for most people. There's ways around it though - such as carrying around 2-3 missions worth of missiles for every type of rat that this particular ship is meant to engage. This means that you might have a Golem which has 2 Invulns and an Explosive hardener with 2500 Explosive and 2500 EM Torps [since you only expect to engage angels and drones with that hardener setup].
Also, dealing with loot/salvage should be added to this "station time" - which is a hidden benefit for not looting/salvaging... or having some very interesting ways of dealing with it once you're docked.
-Liang
--
Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
Blog
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.08.11 17:34:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Also, dealing with loot/salvage should be added to this "station time" - which is a hidden benefit for not looting/salvaging... or having some very interesting ways of dealing with it once you're docked.
Bah! Just toss it in the "Loot & Salvage hangar", and then, once a month, you crash the server two times in a row ù first by rclick→stack, and then by reprocessing umptyeleventy stacks of bazillions items eachà
àit once took 5 minutes for one of those request to resolve for me. 
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Garbad theWeak
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Posted - 2010.08.11 17:37:00 -
[27]
Originally by: stoicfaux
Two other people have done this and kept much better numbers and methodology. If you want to keep metrics, then I highly recommend that you read the following threads, and at least use Kerfira's spreadsheet as a base for tracking your mission income.
Statistics for L4 high-sec mission income
Statistics for L4 high-sec mission income - Efficient Edition
Statistics for L4 high-sec mission income -- Mark II
Statistics for L4 high-sec mission income - Mark III
Since the time I made those threads, I have vastly improved my methods. I've been gathering data for about 6 months now under a variety of conditions. I've also expanded to include some low sec sets. I hope to expand to possibly even 0.0, although I fear bubbles.
I'm not sure if I will publish my work yet, but there are several ways in which you can easily earn much more than 25 mil an hour WITHOUT needing to use a golem/faction fit. And if you want a taste, for this month I am averaging 97.10 mil per hour high sec and just under 350 mil an hour low sec dual boxing on one char with 6 mil SP and the 2nd account with 2.5 mil SP.
But the bottom line is that 40 mil an hour IS a reality for a decently fit solo mission runner. For a noob in a weak ship, it may be more like 15 mil an hour to start, but you can rapidly pull this up with the proper skills, gear, techniques, and some research.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.08.11 17:37:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Tippia
Bah! Just toss it in the "Loot & Salvage hangar", and then, once a month, you crash the server two times in a row ù first by rclick→stack, and then by reprocessing umptyeleventy stacks of bazillions items eachà
àit once took 5 minutes for one of those request to resolve for me.
 Yeah, that's how I handle it too. I even throw my ammo in the Loot & Salvage Hangar - unless I'm flying the Vargur. Ammo and Advanced Ammo thankfully stays at the top of the list so it isn't such a PITA to keep it in the ship.
-Liang
--
Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
Blog
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Elbie Klep
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Posted - 2010.08.11 17:38:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Takseen
Also my condolences on you getting Buzz Kill twice in so short a space of time. That mission is really really annoying with all the HACs and few battleships.
Actually. I like that mission; it provides max LP, good bounties, fairly good salvage (but crappy loot) and it is fairly quick in the CNR. The rats bunch up nicely for salavaging (if one BMs and warps back in at 100 Km) so I will normally salvage it (but not the loot) if it is in the same system as my agent.
I agree that my sampling had a lot of junk missions. But my point about salvaging not always being wrong still stands. Even with the junk (and my arithmetic errors!) it offered comparable ISK/hr to the missions themselves overall. When I regularly run missions I don't salvage about half of them. If one does that, then the returns for salvaging are quite good.
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FlameGlow
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2010.08.11 17:40:00 -
[30]
To maximize mission profit you
1) Cherry pick the missions, declining ones you don't want
2) Farm the high-bounty ones, blitz the easy ones without good bounty/loot
3) Go to lower security areas, there are places in low and nullsec where you can run missions in relative safety(provided you join corp/alliance controlling it or get blue standing). Nullsec has additional bonus of not only more LP/mission but also more isk/LP(and a drawback of having to fight empires/concord with bounties in form of tags)
Originally by: CCP Manifest
Imploding servers are not a part of our business model.
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