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Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.08.25 19:06:00 - [421] Originally by: omgfreemoniez Running away is important in small gangs too. And the only ships with the speed to do so consistently are Minmatar. I'm not sure what your point is here. I already covered why the Hurricane isn't the best BC. It is a good BC but it is by no means the best BC. It simply doesn't need nerfed... and nor does it need buffed. Nerfing autocannons would make it unnecessarily suck. If the conversation is really about asking for a blaster boost, we need to direct the conversation in that direction. If it's really about a projectile nerf, then we need to stop looking at blasters at all since they are obviously the odd man out. Nerfing projectiles won't magically make blasters better to use. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Captain Merkin Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.25 19:14:00 - [422] I'm with Liang on this as with most things to be honest, head screwed on fairly soundly. The cane is a lovely ship and it fills several roles very nicely, it is however far from overpowered in any way whatsoever. As a gang boat I have enjoyed it hugely with an arty/buffer fit and had great success with it over the last 8 - 9 months, it is able to dish out out some nice alpha and is still fast enough to hit 1.5km/sec when it needs to get out or kite, variations of the fitting can allow it to be in the field at 100km+ though with limited effectiveness. As an auto cannon boat it has some nice potential and can move reasonably fast, dish out reasonable dps and have a buffer to play with. Its key points are its speed and versatility, it has average dps, average range, a mediocre tank and is therefore forced to rely on its strong points and versatility. A drake can tank something godlike and still dish out consistant high dps, as can a harbringer when fitted with pulse lasers. A brutix is a solid brick of a ship and can seriously take a pounding, as can a myrmiddon with its shields and drones keeping it free to tank to high hell. Now there are for sure some ships that dont really come up to speed in this class, but none are overpowered technically as far as im concerned. If any ship in this class comes close to being overpowered it would be the drake, its massively used, massively tanked and has good solid dps, I genuinely shudder when I have to take one on in a small gang due to its ability to soak up a f'tonne of damage whist still churning out missiles with 100% hit rate, even when jammed (assuming fof). But I dont consider it overpowered at all, it still dies in a fire when hit with the right hammers. Oh well, there will always be people crying over something in every game out there, its just a shame you choose the least sad things to cry over. Proving natural selection and Charles Darwin wrong since 1981. The Kamikaze pilot
omgfreemoniez	Posted - 2010.08.25 19:34:00 - [423] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: omgfreemoniez Running away is important in small gangs too. And the only ships with the speed to do so consistently are Minmatar. I'm not sure what your point is here. The Vagabond and Cynabal need nerfed is the point. Nothing can compete with them for solo/small gang pvp.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.08.25 19:36:00 - [424] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 25/08/2010 19:39:06 Originally by: omgfreemoniez The Vagabond and Cynabal need nerfed is the point. Nothing can compete with them for solo/small gang pvp. I might buy the Dramiel/Cynabal needing some adjustment, but the Vagabond absolutely doesn't. -Liang Ed: And furthermore, neither of those ships have anything to do with blasters - which was ostensibly what this thread was supposed to be about. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Kaileen Starsong Amarr Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2010.08.25 19:37:00 - [425] Cynabal/Dramiel really need a hit with a nerfbat, Vaga on the other hand is pretty much a comedy ship, only capable of ganking some T1 cruisers and idiotically fit/flown ships really.
omgfreemoniez	Posted - 2010.08.25 19:38:00 - [426] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: omgfreemoniez The Vagabond and Cynabal need nerfed is the point. Nothing can compete with them for solo/small gang pvp. I might buy the Dramiel/Cynabal needing some adjustment, but the Vagabond absolutely doesn't. -Liang So you agree with forcing all pilots to crosstrain Minmatar just to be able to fly a viable nanoHAC? Because none of the other nanoHACs are viable with the Vagabond in it's current 600 DPS / 2500m/s / 25000 ehp state.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.08.25 19:42:00 - [427] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 25/08/2010 19:43:37 Originally by: omgfreemoniez So you agree with forcing all pilots to crosstrain Minmatar just to be able to fly a viable nanoHAC? Because none of the other nanoHACs are viable with the Vagabond in it's current 600 DPS / 2500m/s / 25000 ehp state. There's no reason to cross train Minmatar with the Ishtar, Deimos, Sacrilege, Zealot, and Cerb all being totally viable nano HACs that all outdamage the Vagabond. Your 600 DPS figure is total bull***, and you know why it is too. -Liang Ed: And furthermore, yes I would be in favor of people having to cross train Minmatar if they want "the best" nano HAC. Just like I cross trained Caldari and Amarr for the best gang and solo recons. Just like I cross trained Amarr for the best battleship. Just like I cross trained Amarr for the best HAC. -- Eve Forum **** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.25 19:51:00 - [428] Originally by: omgfreemoniez So you agree with forcing all pilots to crosstrain Minmatar just to be able to fly a viable nanoHAC? Because none of the other nanoHACs are viable with the Vagabond in it's current 600 DPS / 2500m/s / 25000 ehp state. You don't have to crosstrain to Minmatar to "fly a viable nanoHAC" already? If I recall Angel ships require Minnie ship skills and use Projectiles. The Vagabond just does it with less performance and a higher skill investment, which I think are both good for balance. I had some ideas on how to nerf Angel ships a while back before they fixed the Cynabal BPC issue. But it seems that CCP isn't in a ship-nerfing mood lately, and I agree that all this is a distraction from talking about what would make Hybrids fun and balanced in the long run.
omgfreemoniez	Posted - 2010.08.25 19:53:00 - [429] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: omgfreemoniez So you agree with forcing all pilots to crosstrain Minmatar just to be able to fly a viable nanoHAC? Because none of the other nanoHACs are viable with the Vagabond in it's current 600 DPS / 2500m/s / 25000 ehp state. There's no reason to cross train Minmatar with the Ishtar, Deimos, Sacrilege, Zealot, and Cerb all being totally viable nano HACs that all outdamage the Vagabond. Your 600 DPS figure is total bull**, and you know why it is too. -Liagn All the ships you listed have one or more fatal flaws though. Ishtar: Heavy drones have all sorts of mobility issues, Sentries just get lost, and when you have to GTFO in a hurry you'll lose either type. Deimos: Tiny range even with TE's, needs nanos to go at any decent speed, awful tank with 1 LSE. Sacrilege: Poor dronebay and poor DPS vs quick targets, with 25m3 dronebay and if missiles could hit frigates for full damage it would be reasonably good. Zealot: NO DRONES = FAIL Cerb: NO DRONES = FAIL Even if my 600 DPS figure IS total bull**, which I admit it is because of falloff, a Vagabond can still easily do 400 DPS at 20km with the other stats I mentioned. And it doesn't have horrible fatal flaws like the ones I described above. And none of the above HACs can hit 2000m/s, never mind 2500m/s WITHOUT speed mods Vaga being slightly better than the other HACs would be fine but there is a MASSIVE disparity in performance.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.08.25 20:02:00 - [430] Originally by: omgfreemoniez All the ships you listed have one or more fatal flaws though. Ishtar: Heavy drones have all sorts of mobility issues, Sentries just get lost, and when you have to GTFO in a hurry you'll lose either type. Deimos: Tiny range even with TE's, needs nanos to go at any decent speed, awful tank with 1 LSE. Sacrilege: Poor dronebay and poor DPS vs quick targets, with 25m3 dronebay and if missiles could hit frigates for full damage it would be reasonably good. Zealot: NO DRONES = FAIL Cerb: NO DRONES = FAIL I don't deny that the Vagabond is the best Nano HAC. Hell, the Zealot and Ishtar are pretty damn good, and the rest are still very viable. The Ishtar will outdamage the Vagabond with medium drones. As I said, there's nothing wrong with having to train a race if you want the best at something. Quote: Vaga being slightly better than the other HACs would be fine but there is a MASSIVE disparity in performance. The other HACs are trying to compete at a role that the Vagabond was specifically designed to fulfill. There is nothing wrong here except your expectation that every race deserves viable NANO HACs instead of HACs that are viable in their own roles. I would argue, in fact, that the other nano HACs are better able to fill the Vaga's role than it is theirs. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog

omgfreemoniez	Posted - 2010.08.25 20:07:00 - [431] Originally by: Liang Nuren The Ishtar will outdamage the Vagabond with medium drones. 238 DPS with all level 5's? Umm, that doesn't compare to the 400 dps of a Vaga at all. And you can't fit anything in the highs that will hit at 20km and doesnt put you way over grid. Quote: Vaga being slightly better than the other HACs would be fine but there is a MASSIVE disparity in performance. The other HACs are trying to compete at a role that the Vagabond was specifically designed to fulfill. There is nothing wrong here except your expectation that every race deserves viable NANO HACs instead of HACs that are viable in their own roles. I would argue, in fact, that the other nano HACs are better able to fill the Vaga's role than it is theirs. -Liang The Muninn does "Competing in other categories" just fine TBH.
Intigo Amarr Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.08.25 20:09:00 - [432] The "nerf Vagabond" cries are hilarious in this thread. Originally by: omgfreemoniez The Muninn does "Competing in other categories" just fine TBH. Yeah, it's such a great armor HAC ship compared to the Zealot! The Vagabond too! ___________________
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.08.25 20:10:00 - [433] Originally by: omgfreemoniez 238 DPS with all level 5's? Umm, that doesn't compare to the 400 dps of a Vaga at all. And you can't fit anything in the highs that will hit at 20km and doesnt put you way over grid. I'm suspicious of this 400 DPS figure, but I'm in a poor position to dispute it as I don't have a copy of EFT handy. As I remember, the Vagabond is doing absolutely laughable DPS at 25km+. Even if you're completely correct about the DPS @ 20km, I see nothing wrong with it, and it doesn't change anything I have said except for the statement about the Ishtar and medium drones. Quote: The Muninn does "Competing in other categories" just fine TBH. No it really doesn't. It does an ok job at being a sniper HAC, and that's it. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
omgfreemoniez	Posted - 2010.08.25 20:15:00 - [434] Name a useful HAC role other than nano the Muninn can't fill.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.08.25 20:18:00 - [435] Originally by: omgfreemoniez Name a useful HAC role other than nano the Muninn can't fill. I underlined the part where your biases show. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
n0thing Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.08.25 20:18:00 - [436] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Indeterminacy Originally by: Hatsumi Kobayashi To be fair I don't understand how this even became about "hurricane is OP, tempest is best BS". because it's all true? for example, name 1 other BC that can fit 2 LSEs, MWD, and 2 med neuts and a full rack of 'heavy' (425mm) medium guns with no powergrid modules or rigs? The Hurricane is already bested at armor tanking by the Harbinger and at shield tanking by the Drake and at DPS by both the Myrm and Brutix. The only thing that the Hurricane really does better than the other BCs is nano about - but that's more about running from fights than getting into them. Simply put, the Hurricane is a decent BC, but by no means an overpowered one. Which just goes to show that your criteria for determining what's important about a ship needs a radical rethinking. -Liang My point exactly in your post. Running from fights means it can engage targets on its own and only its own terms. An ability that is platinum value in EVE universe. Why you think its very hard to catch a decent cloaky-antibubble-T3? Because it can dictate its target selection and attack timings. Exactly how 80% of Matar ships do. ---
Captain Merkin Minmatar	Posted - 2010.08.25 20:21:00 - [437] Originally by: omgfreemoniez Name a useful HAC role other than nano the Muninn can't fill. you mean other than un-scannable 150km+ sniper? Tanky drone boat? Munin isnt really in question here omg, think they talking about the vaga very much instead ;) Munin is however a nicely rounded ship, just pretty crap at everything it does compared to other hacs Proving natural selection and Charles Darwin wrong since 1981. The Kamikaze pilot
omgfreemoniez	Posted - 2010.08.25 20:21:00 - [438] Edited by: omgfreemoniez on 25/08/2010 20:22:51 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: omgfreemoniez Name a useful HAC role other than nano the Muninn can't fill. I underlined the part where your biases show. Why are you being evasive? If you believe yourself not to be biased, you should be able to answer that question. You're not expected to understand my point of view (And hence be able to answer from it), or you'd agree with me. But don't embarass yourself by making up stupid HAC roles just to prove me wrong. We both know close range HACs are pointless because they are outclassed by Battlecruisers, for example.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.08.25 20:23:00 - [439] Originally by: n0thing Running from fights means it can engage targets on its own and only its own terms. An ability that is platinum value in EVE universe. Neglecting for a moment that your implication is ridiculously overly strong, I won't deny that it is a useful trait. However, it's certainly not the only useful trait and nor is it even the most useful trait. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.08.25 20:28:00 - [440] Originally by: omgfreemoniez Why are you being evasive? If you believe yourself not to be biased, you should be able to answer that question. You're not expected to understand my point of view (And hence be able to answer from it), or you'd agree with me. But don't embarass yourself by making up stupid HAC roles just to prove me wrong. We both know close range HACs are pointless because they are outclassed by Battlecruisers, for example. The Muninn is terrible at many things, but here are some specifics: - Brawling - Mid range damage dealer - Armor Tanking The list really does go on and on.. as a rule the Muninn is pretty poor at everything. And it furthermore is completely sidestepping the question of the Vagabond and how it overlaps with the roles these other ships can fill. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog

Tommy Blue Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.08.25 20:29:00 - [441] Edited by: Tommy Blue on 25/08/2010 20:37:04 Edited by: Tommy Blue on 25/08/2010 20:36:07 Edited by: Tommy Blue on 25/08/2010 20:31:56 I hope you guys understand that I in now way thing hurricanes are overpowered...i love em as they are (all Bcs should be like em :D). Ann you are forgetting something...speed helps in damage reduction, like tracking and explosion velocity. And im not being dense, you just forgot about it. (i guess i have to say it again to reiterate my point) Hurricane = best speed. Hurricane has the best dps when fit with 2x hams (unless you gank fit your brutix), or is tied for 2nd best dps with the harbinger. Hurricane has the worst tank, 4k less than a comparable brutix (which fits 2x mag stabs to have = dps). Its speed helps it tank though so its raw ehp is not a real signifier of its tank. Oh thats shield. Armor cane can be fit to punch out dps to make it roughly the 2nd best dps maker and tied for 2nd best tank. every other BC has one major flaw. The hurricane doesnt have a flaw. drake = dps Harb = speed Brutix = tank Myrm = (imo) drones as a main source of dps and dps,...when fit for dps tank suffers
souhyeahright	Posted - 2010.08.25 20:32:00 - [442] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: omgfreemoniez 238 DPS with all level 5's? Umm, that doesn't compare to the 400 dps of a Vaga at all. And you can't fit anything in the highs that will hit at 20km and doesnt put you way over grid. I'm suspicious of this 400 DPS figure, but I'm in a poor position to dispute it as I don't have a copy of EFT handy. As I remember, the Vagabond is doing absolutely laughable DPS at 25km+. With the all-V character in a cookie-cutter 3 gyro/2 TE vaga with 220s firing barrage and with warrior IIs out, EFT says you get 415 DPS at 20 km, falling to 339 DPS at 30.
omgfreemoniez	Posted - 2010.08.25 20:38:00 - [443] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: omgfreemoniez Why are you being evasive? If you believe yourself not to be biased, you should be able to answer that question. You're not expected to understand my point of view (And hence be able to answer from it), or you'd agree with me. But don't embarass yourself by making up stupid HAC roles just to prove me wrong. We both know close range HACs are pointless because they are outclassed by Battlecruisers, for example. The Muninn is terrible at many things, but here are some specifics: - Brawling - Mid range damage dealer - Armor Tanking The list really does go on and on.. as a rule the Muninn is pretty poor at everything. And it furthermore is completely sidestepping the question of the Vagabond and how it overlaps with the roles these other ships can fill. -Liang Brawling? Please tell me you don't mean "close range HACs". Armor tanking? It does that fine, you just have to use Kin/Exp hardeners instead of EANMs. Not a big deal. Vagabond is the "mid range damage dealer" for Minmatar. Muninn is tied best sniper with Zealot. If you can fly a Vaga you can fly a Muninn. The Vagabond doesn't need to do roles that the Muninn can do. The Muninn does tend to be slightly worse than other ships in some roles. But this doesn't excuse the Vagabond, since it isn't "slightly better" at being a nano-HAC, it's hugely better.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.08.25 20:51:00 - [444] Originally by: Tommy Blue I hope you guys understand that I in no way thing hurricanes are overpowered...i love em as they are (all Bcs should be like em :D). I'm thankful that they're not, really. Quote: Shield Cane Hurricane = best speed. Hurricane has the best dps when fit with 2x hams (unless you gank fit your brutix), or is tied for 2nd best dps with the harbinger. Hurricane has the worst tank, 4k less than a comparable brutix (which fits 2x mag stabs to have = dps). Its speed helps it tank though so its raw ehp is not a real signifier of its tank. You're dramatically overstating the importance of speed since range helps far more. Also, "worst tank" is important and most people don't fit it with HAMs. I prefer to work with realistic fits. ;-) Quote: Armor cane can be fit to punch out dps to make it roughly the 2nd best dps maker and tied for 2nd best tank. So basically the Hurricane gives up the only real advantage it has (mobility) so that it can be second or third best at everything? Sounds really reasonable! -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.08.25 20:58:00 - [445] Originally by: omgfreemoniez ... You are wrong: - The Vagabond is not in fact hugely better at being a nano HAC. - The Vagabond is only useful in one role, where other ships can have multiple roles. - You did not address my point about other ships filling the Vaga better than the VAGA fills their shoes. - Armor HACs are growing in popularity, and neither Minmatar HAC are good at it. - I don't care if you don't like a role, it still exists and is used. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
omgfreemoniez	Posted - 2010.08.25 21:06:00 - [446] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: omgfreemoniez ... You are wrong: - The Vagabond is not in fact hugely better at being a nano HAC. - The Vagabond is only useful in one role, where other ships can have multiple roles. - You did not address my point about other ships filling the Vaga better than the VAGA fills their shoes. - Armor HACs are growing in popularity, and neither Minmatar HAC are good at it. - I don't care if you don't like a role, it still exists and is used. -Liang See my post comparing the other nano HACs to the Vaga... the Vaga IS hugely better due to the fatal flaws on the other ships! The Vaga only needs to be useful in one role, the MUNINN fills the other roles. You don't fit a ship for multiple roles AT THE SAME TIME. So what does it matter if it's a different fit or a different ship, if the different ship takes the exact same skills? Minmatar HACs are better at armor HACing than Eagle or Cerb or Sacrilege (range) or Ishtar (loldrones). So they're by far not the worst. Close range HACs may exist, and they may be used, but they're pointless as any Battlecruiser will waste them with superior DPS and EHP. The HAC's advantage is it's range, speed, and resists.
Sabine Demsky Failed Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.08.25 21:31:00 - [447] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Sabine Demsky Idk if you meant you dont fit TE's on a Tempest or if you do The context here is (apparently) trying to compare the Megathron and Tempest as battleships. As such, its a bit light on the tank for the relatively light DPS that it does. Like I said - if you treat the Tempest as a big BC, it starts to look pretty reasonable. Treating it like a battleship is a recipe for failure most of the time. Quote: http://failed.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=10606 As the person who runs the blog "Failing in so many ways...", I must say I love your killboard name. :) Also, I pray everything goes well with your surgery. -Liang Ty for your thoughts of the surgery, it went great. With the comparing a tempest and a megathron for BS on BS.. this arguement is dumb, mega wins for the BS class in my opinion. However with treating the tempest as a big hurricane i found it is a pretty good ship. Especially in small gang warfare.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.08.25 21:45:00 - [448] Originally by: omgfreemoniez ... You are attempting to muddy the water by focusing on the Muninn. Let's get back to business: There is nothing wrong with the Vagabond being the best nano HAC - even by a really large margin. There is nothing really wrong with the other HACs in that role. You have no argument for nerfing the Vagabond. Stop posting. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
omgfreemoniez	Posted - 2010.08.25 21:50:00 - [449] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: omgfreemoniez ... You are attempting to muddy the water by focusing on the Muninn. Let's get back to business: There is nothing wrong with the Vagabond being the best nano HAC - even by a really large margin. There is nothing really wrong with the other HACs in that role. You have no argument for nerfing the Vagabond. Can you not read? I posted exactly why the other HAC's aren't good. They ALL HAVE A FATAL FLAW. The Vagabond is MILES better than any of them, nano-HACs are one of the MOST COMMON pvp ships, so players SHOULD NOT be forced to train Minmatar to have an effective nano-HAC! It destroys the variety in this game. It's like saying "Even though ship X is crap because it has 1 DPS and 1 EHP, that's OK because you can just crosstrain to ship Y anyway". Your post isn't an argument, it's a DENIAL! And posting "stop posting" isn't going to stop me posting. Maybe YOU should stop posting if this crap is all you're good for.
Tommy Blue Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2010.08.25 21:54:00 - [450] Originally by: Liang Nuren You're dramatically overstating the importance of speed since range helps far more. Also, "worst tank" is important and most people don't fit it with HAMs. I prefer to work with realistic fits. ;-) Quote: Armor cane can be fit to punch out dps to make it roughly the 2nd best dps maker and tied for 2nd best tank. So basically the Hurricane gives up the only real advantage it has (mobility) so that it can be second or third best at everything? Sounds really reasonable! -Liang Hams fits are completely viable, and I have seen them used almost as much as the dual neut setup. Just because you dont fit it that way doesnt mean other people dont use it. And the armor cane still is the fastest. And when you say "everything" you mean 2 criteria. We are speaking of 3 criteria, that of speed, dps, and tank. It is #1, #2, and #2 respectively. No other BC can say that about their fits. Most have some major flaw, the hurricane does not have one.



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