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HeIIfire11	Posted - 2010.08.31 20:11:00 - [31] Originally by: Mike TheMiner If you told your friends to just train learning skills, then its you to blame for them not playing, not CCP. Anyone with half a brain can figure out how to mix in other usefull skills while training learning skills in order to actually play the game during the first few weeks. If people choose to only train learning skills then complain they cant do anything, thats their loss. Hes got a good point..although I have to say that anyone who plans to play eve longer..and is a gamer..would see the point in doing them and getting it over with.I agree in that case that it can turn people off to the game.A few people I tried to bring in..left just because they had to learn the ship skills..and saw the long wait ahead of them to fly the ships they saw in game.So learning was the cherry on top for them.To sum it up..eve is not for everyone..and is already hard to get into..learning makes it harder.I think eve would be fine without them and I stil dont have them all to 5.Dont think i will do them either.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.08.31 20:20:00 - [32] Edited by: Zeba on 31/08/2010 20:20:17 Remove learning skills when we get the new avatar creation supposedly in the next patch and reimburse the sp and attribute points into a pool we can reallocate. Everything is in place to do it and all it needs is someone to well, do it. I won't arse myself to explain why it needs to be done as there are tons of threads with that info out there already. Originally by: CCP Oveur My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard. Originally by: Ryhss There is no paranoia in Eve, everyone is out to get you....
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.08.31 20:53:00 - [33] Originally by: HeIIfire11 Originally by: Mike TheMiner If you told your friends to just train learning skills, then its you to blame for them not playing, not CCP. Anyone with half a brain can figure out how to mix in other usefull skills while training learning skills in order to actually play the game during the first few weeks. If people choose to only train learning skills then complain they cant do anything, thats their loss. Hes got a good point..although I have to say that anyone who plans to play eve longer..and is a gamer..would see the point in doing them and getting it over with.I agree in that case that it can turn people off to the game.A few people I tried to bring in..left just because they had to learn the ship skills..and saw the long wait ahead of them to fly the ships they saw in game.So learning was the cherry on top for them.To sum it up..eve is not for everyone..and is already hard to get into..learning makes it harder.I think eve would be fine without them and I stil dont have them all to 5.Dont think i will do them either. Good stuff both of you, I'd add that each account comes with 3 character slots which are frequently used to train specialty players that will ahve far less final sp that the break even point to go beyond 4-3 ... that sort of "what are you going to do when your grow up" coommitment does add a bit of flavor and a less generic attachment to varying charcters. Another point : training at the max learning skill rate from the get go would cut the creation time of high disposable gankers chacters by more than a third ... you could almost get a new one everyweek instead of two weeks.... The real decision making really only comes after 4-3 skills for any charcter. Also the cost of the second tier books is enourmous for a player new to the game but a pitance to someon thats been in the game . Let the truly new player get the t2 learning skills as reward for finishing a handul of tutorials ...maybe also jump the t1s up to 4 at the same time. Thos tuorials or the SOE epic arc that unlocks them take so many play hours that only a truly new player who does need the help would bother. Nebie probleme solved with the above while still allowing more compicated choices whether to take a devil-may-care reckless approach to a chracter or a book-worm charlie attitude to a charcter in a rush to complete his doctorate adn fly carriers at the youngest age possible.
Corozan Aspinall Party Time Inc.	Posted - 2010.08.31 22:06:00 - [34] Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 31/08/2010 20:20:17 Remove learning skills when we get the new avatar creation supposedly in the next patch and reimburse the sp and attribute points into a pool we can reallocate. Everything is in place to do it and all it needs is someone to well, do it. I won't arse myself to explain why it needs to be done as there are tons of threads with that info out there already. Don't forget the free remap. Or a lot of people (omni toons mainly) would be gimped, especially those who don't min/max multiple characters in order to play EVE.
TimMc Brutal Deliverance Intergalactic Exports Group	Posted - 2010.08.31 22:12:00 - [35] Its darwinian... kills off the morons who try to train everything to 5. Simply train the basics to 4 and then play the damn game.
Extinctio Sanctitas State War Academy	Posted - 2010.09.02 12:15:00 - [36] What are learning skills?

CCP Adida C C P C C P Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.02 17:09:00 - [37] Removed spam Adida Community Rep CCP Hf, EVE Online

Sergeant Spot Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.	Posted - 2010.09.02 17:22:00 - [38] My favorite option: 1. Delete all learning skills, reimbursing the skill points to folks who lose skill. 2. Add about 8 to 10 points to all base attributes for everyone, (and raise the minimum base attributes too, by 6 to 10 points) But I'm happy to keep things as they are too. Play nice while you butcher each other.
Corozan Aspinall Party Time Inc.	Posted - 2010.09.02 17:36:00 - [39] Edited by: Corozan Aspinall on 02/09/2010 17:37:43 Originally by: Sergeant Spot My favorite option: 1. Delete all learning skills, reimbursing the skill points to folks who lose skill. 2. Add about 8 to 10 points to all base attributes for everyone, (and raise the minimum base attributes too, by 6 to 10 points) But I'm happy to keep things as they are too. What about the month of game time added to my account for all the hrs I wasted training Empathy at 1600 sp/hr when I could have been training bing-budda-boom at 3200 sp hr? Also the remap/s I have wasted, like all of them, in tuning attributes to suit my learning skills trained. Also I want the isk back for the skill books. Its enough to buy me a stack of boom sticks. Oh and I want the cost of my implants back. And the ones before them. Since they will now be redundant and I will have wasted literally hours of game time generting isk to buy them .. half a bill or so please! You getting the idea this isnt so simple yet?
Riedle Minmatar Wayne's TV and Appliances	Posted - 2010.09.02 17:48:00 - [40] Edited by: Riedle on 02/09/2010 17:50:54 Edited by: Riedle on 02/09/2010 17:50:17 Quote: What about the month of game time added to my account for all the hrs I wasted training Empathy at 1600 sp/hr when I could have been training bing-budda-boom at 3200 sp hr? ~cough~ Quote: 1. Delete all learning skills, reimbursing the skill points to folks who lose skill. Implants would not have to be removed or modified to do this as well so that is a non-issue. As well, they could reimburse the skillbook cost, which really was not very much at all. PS: you wasted all of your remaps on learning skills? lols click here
Rocky Deadshot	Posted - 2010.09.02 18:00:00 - [41] Originally by: EVEcitizen2119278 I've had about 5 friends try and give up on eve because guess what... they wanted to PLAY the game, I do however have 3 friends who do play the game... that means that about 63% of people who try eve give up on the trial and they are intelligent and patient, they just didn't want to ship spin like us. your sample size is way to small to draw any statistics off of. Maybe instead of spending the 21 days training learning skills people who want to play the game should train learning a little then go in and train combat skills, thats wat i did. Then you go back after ur comfy in something and finish up ur learning skills.
Joe Skellington Minmatar JOKAS Industries Independent Faction	Posted - 2010.09.02 18:01:00 - [42] Edited by: Joe Skellington on 02/09/2010 18:02:02 Originally by: FinnAgain Zero Just a suggestion: folks should try not to be stupid. I agree, stupid is as stupid does. If you don't want to train learning skills, don't.
Corozan Aspinall Party Time Inc.	Posted - 2010.09.02 18:05:00 - [43] Originally by: Riedle PS: you wasted all of your remaps on learning skills? lols Reading comprehension dude. The point is, there is a lot of point. Its not so simple as just giving people their sp's back as they are then, effectively, worse off than those who trained skills to unlock or better enjoy game content. Most people do/did most of the learning skills to 4/4, 5/4, 5/5 sequentially. Sooner or later you are faced with giving up time to access nothing but gain time back months or years down the line. If you did this, then didnt have the time to see that benefit yet, you lost out. If you did, then those who didn't wont care and those who are stuck in the middle lose out. Its a crap deal for someone whatever happens. See? I only listed the other stuff because, tenous and whiney it may be, but there will be people who see it that way and that anally. Personally I think learning should go before Incarna in order to help retention of new players that will attract. I'm just continually annoyed reading over simplifications of how that should be done pimped as 'the best way'.
Riedle Minmatar Wayne's TV and Appliances	Posted - 2010.09.02 19:03:00 - [44] Edited by: Riedle on 02/09/2010 19:04:35 Originally by: Corozan Aspinall Originally by: Riedle PS: you wasted all of your remaps on learning skills? lols Reading comprehension dude. The point is, there is a lot of point. Its not so simple as just giving people their sp's back as they are then, effectively, worse off than those who trained skills to unlock or better enjoy game content. Most people do/did most of the learning skills to 4/4, 5/4, 5/5 sequentially. Sooner or later you are faced with giving up time to access nothing but gain time back months or years down the line. If you did this, then didnt have the time to see that benefit yet, you lost out. If you did, then those who didn't wont care and those who are stuck in the middle lose out. Its a crap deal for someone whatever happens. See? I only listed the other stuff because, tenous and whiney it may be, but there will be people who see it that way and that anally. Personally I think learning should go before Incarna in order to help retention of new players that will attract. I'm just continually annoyed reading over simplifications of how that should be done pimped as 'the best way'. Anyways, you said Quote: Also the remap/s I have wasted, like all of them, in tuning attributes to suit my learning skills trained. Not sure what reading comprehension I need. Learning skills need to go. I have mine trained, they need to go. They add no 'fun' to the game and they discourage people at the start of the game. I want more people playing EVE because I want it to be successfull and so then EVE will become better. petty arguments arguing about 2 hours saved over 2 years of skilling are just that, petty and do not make this game better. Either way I don't care much, but I just think this would be a good way to bring more people in without dumbing the game down. Reimburse the SP's, the skill book's isk (lol) keep implants, adjust the base attributes up accordingly and give everyone a bonus remap. Bingo. Win. The new player experience is better, EVE gets better and we all have more people to kill. CCP makes more money and we all get better performance and content. Getting stuck in the minutia of how it will be done is missing the point entirely. Do it CCP - an easy win for everybody despite the vocal whiners who will find anything to whine about. o/ click here
Corozan Aspinall Party Time Inc.	Posted - 2010.09.02 19:19:00 - [45] Originally by: Riedle Edited by: Riedle on 02/09/2010 19:04:35 Originally by: Corozan Aspinall Originally by: Riedle PS: you wasted all of your remaps on learning skills? lols Reading comprehension dude. The point is, there is a lot of point. Its not so simple as just giving people their sp's back as they are then, effectively, worse off than those who trained skills to unlock or better enjoy game content. Most people do/did most of the learning skills to 4/4, 5/4, 5/5 sequentially. Sooner or later you are faced with giving up time to access nothing but gain time back months or years down the line. If you did this, then didnt have the time to see that benefit yet, you lost out. If you did, then those who didn't wont care and those who are stuck in the middle lose out. Its a crap deal for someone whatever happens. See? I only listed the other stuff because, tenous and whiney it may be, but there will be people who see it that way and that anally. Personally I think learning should go before Incarna in order to help retention of new players that will attract. I'm just continually annoyed reading over simplifications of how that should be done pimped as 'the best way'. Anyways, you said Quote: Also the remap/s I have wasted, like all of them, in tuning attributes to suit my learning skills trained. Not sure what reading comprehension I need. Learning skills need to go. I have mine trained, they need to go. They add no 'fun' to the game and they discourage people at the start of the game. I want more people playing EVE because I want it to be successfull and so then EVE will become better. petty arguments arguing about 2 hours saved over 2 years of skilling are just that, petty and do not make this game better. Either way I don't care much, but I just think this would be a good way to bring more people in without dumbing the game down. Reimburse the SP's, the skill book's isk (lol) keep implants, adjust the base attributes up accordingly and give everyone a bonus remap. Bingo. Win. The new player experience is better, EVE gets better and we all have more people to kill. CCP makes more money and we all get better performance and content. Getting stuck in the minutia of how it will be done is missing the point entirely. Do it CCP - an easy win for everybody despite the vocal whiners who will find anything to whine about. o/ The thing I would add to that is I would give people a % bonus on those refunded skill points to reflect the levels they trained to. That way people get back their skills points plus a little/lot extra as thank you/compensation for the hassle. I also agree 100% with you re: Incarna as a deadline for this.
Orree Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.09.02 19:29:00 - [46] Edited by: Orree on 02/09/2010 19:32:13 If I were a new players starting today, I would pretty much do everything the same way I did it years ago when the game was young. I'd read up on the game and get some help (either from friends or the forums) in charting a training course. I'd train skills that allowed me to play the game in the manner I wanted to play it and I'd train learning skills when I felt the benefit of doing so outweighed getting an extra level in skills I already had or training a new skill. I wouldn't go do something else. I'd play the game. I'd understand that if that wasn't fun, then clear this was game wasn't for me and I'd do something else for fun. Some of the differences between now and then are: I can actually increase my attributes much faster with learning skills because I no longer have to train the basic learnign skills to 5 in order to access the advanced learning skills. I have accelerated learning and multiple attribute remaps available to me. I spent YEARS with a crap perception attribute training skills like Capital Ship V for something like 80 days because I couldn't undo the Intaki Curse. Implants up to +3 are trivial to acquire. A lot of us trained without implants or by merely using +1s and +2s because that's what we could afford. Making isk seems easier now than it was backc then and even +4 implants aren't out of reach for young players. They sure were when I started. ...and yet people still find ways to whinge about learning skills and make opinionated statements couched as "fact" that they are somehow broken or there is some other "problem" with them. Seriously. Get a grip. If you "can't play the game" because you "have to train" learning skills, you really don't get "it." ---------- "How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli
Colonel Evans	Posted - 2010.09.02 19:50:00 - [47] Edited by: Colonel Evans on 02/09/2010 19:52:14 Why does everyone feel themselves required to train learning skills and ONLY learning skills first? Train them intermittently with other skills thrown in so that you can actually play while getting them up. Stop telling your friends to waste their first month training only learning skills, unless you WANT them to never come back. I often hear complaints of how if you don't train them you won't be maximizing your efficiency at training skills. I've been playing for several years and fly (mostly) T2 frigates, with my focus being (mostly) Khanid Innovations ships (yes, Roflkets, don't tell me). In that time, I still haven't completely perfected the support skills for these ships, and yet I still fly them well (consistently). It isn't absolutely necessary to min/max everything. It's not a big enough problem to warrant the large fix it would take to get rid of them and reimburse everyone for the skill point loss. In summary: Learning skills pay off only in the long run. Train some normal skills up first, and if you decide you'll stay with EVE for a while, only then do they become absolutely worthwhile. It's definitely not a big enough problem to completely remove them.
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2010.09.02 20:12:00 - [48] Originally by: Diomedes Calypso Natalie.. once again my argument is conveniently left off. Hazing anal retentive people is high pleasure... I've always wondered about that saying, anal retentive. Perhaps this is because English isn't my first language. What does it mean, exactly? You keep things in your butt?
DeckardIRL The Randoms	Posted - 2010.09.02 20:17:00 - [49] Stop crying.... your are lucky that you only have to train the Tier 1 skills to level 4 before you train advanced.... boohoo for you.... Deck Whiskey For CAOD at its best
Corozan Aspinall Party Time Inc.	Posted - 2010.09.02 20:38:00 - [50] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu What does it mean, exactly? You keep things in your butt? HTH
Corozan Aspinall Party Time Inc.	Posted - 2010.09.02 20:42:00 - [51] Originally by: DeckardIRL Stop crying.... your are lucky that you only have to train the Tier 1 skills to level 4 before you train advanced.... boohoo for you.... Deck Dude its only 4 days to lv 5.
My Postman	Posted - 2010.09.03 10:17:00 - [52] Originally by: Riedle Edited by: Riedle on 02/09/2010 19:04:35 Originally by: Corozan Aspinall Originally by: Riedle PS: you wasted all of your remaps on learning skills? lols Reading comprehension dude. The point is, there is a lot of point. Its not so simple as just giving people their sp's back as they are then, effectively, worse off than those who trained skills to unlock or better enjoy game content. Most people do/did most of the learning skills to 4/4, 5/4, 5/5 sequentially. Sooner or later you are faced with giving up time to access nothing but gain time back months or years down the line. If you did this, then didnt have the time to see that benefit yet, you lost out. If you did, then those who didn't wont care and those who are stuck in the middle lose out. Its a crap deal for someone whatever happens. See? I only listed the other stuff because, tenous and whiney it may be, but there will be people who see it that way and that anally. Personally I think learning should go before Incarna in order to help retention of new players that will attract. I'm just continually annoyed reading over simplifications of how that should be done pimped as 'the best way'. Anyways, you said Quote: Also the remap/s I have wasted, like all of them, in tuning attributes to suit my learning skills trained. ...Stuff... Either way I don't care much, but I just think this would be a good way to bring more people in without dumbing the game down. Reimburse the SP's, the skill book's isk (lol) keep implants, adjust the base attributes up accordingly and give everyone a bonus remap. Bingo. Win. The new player experience is better, EVE gets better and we all have more people to kill. CCP makes more money and we all get better performance and content. Getting stuck in the minutia of how it will be done is missing the point entirely. Do it CCP - an easy win for everybody despite the vocal whiners who will find anything to whine about. o/ Ok, so basically what you want to do is "reimburse" those whiners who haven¦t done the learning skills, now crying on forums for removal, with a free remap AS WELL? I¦m all for keeping them (even there are not very much, at least in those whining threads), because when i made up my mind and maxed them out, CCP made me think that i will BENEFIT in the future. Future is NOW, i maxed out. Now i skill faster than others. This "making it easier for noobs" pies me off. Not a single noob in here whining. All "remove learning skills" whiners are semi-experianced ppl who did¦nt bother trainng them, seeing now the disadvantage and probably have lost their +5¦s when podded, and have to reinstall for a fortune. Only good thing is that there is NOTHING official from CCP¦s side so there is a lot more whining you have to do. Please feel free to make a new thread about this s* every single week (or more often if you want). Vets (and i¦m no vet by all meanings) will deal with this when CCP comes with the hammer. Than you can have my stuff. Fake edit: Lots of good points made by Corazon (spelling?).
Natalie Caladan Hedion University	Posted - 2010.09.03 10:25:00 - [53] Originally by: QT McWhiskers If they decide to take them out of the game and reinburse people for skillpoints spent and give everyone a+10 mod to all stats, you will spend the 2-6 mil SP on whatever you are training, happily I might add, and go on about your eve business. Then... You will get over it. If they leave them in the game and tell the public to HTFU, new players will unhappily train them... and get over it. Exactly. No need to get upset over it either way.
Sergeant Spot Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.	Posted - 2010.09.03 10:50:00 - [54] no skin off my nose as long as they reimburse the SPs. All my learning skills have been 5 for years... (and yes, reimbursing the isk for the books is nice too, but so minor as to be forgetable compared to the SPs. If you disagree, you are wrong, and will eventually agree with me unless you quit Eve .....) On a seperate note, learning skills as they exist now SUCK for new players. In the long run, yes, they help, but in the short run, they annoy the hell out of new players. Play nice while you butcher each other.
Riedle Minmatar Wayne's TV and Appliances	Posted - 2010.09.03 12:23:00 - [55] Quote: Ok, so basically what you want to do is "reimburse" those whiners who haven¦t done the learning skills, now crying on forums for removal, with a free remap AS WELL? Sure, why not. Doesn't bother me at all. Why would it bother you? Who is the whiner again? Quote: I¦m all for keeping them (even there are not very much, at least in those whining threads), because when i made up my mind and maxed them out, CCP made me think that i will BENEFIT in the future. You did and are. You are training at the max rate - just like everyone else. lol Besides, they will reimburse the SP's so what's the problem? Quote: Future is NOW, i maxed out. Now i skill faster than others. Suuuure you do. lols You is a l33t learner young padawan! lol Quote: This "making it easier for noobs" pies me off. Not a single noob in here whining. All "remove learning skills" whiners are semi-experianced ppl who did¦nt bother trainng them, seeing now the disadvantage and probably have lost their +5¦s when podded, and have to reinstall for a fortune. If you saiy so. I am advocating their removal from the game but I am not whining as it were. Oh, I also have them trained. lol Quote: Only good thing is that there is NOTHING official from CCP¦s side so there is a lot more whining you have to do. Please feel free to make a new thread about this s* every single week (or more often if you want). Dude, you have spittle on your chin Quote: Vets (and i¦m no vet by all meanings) will deal with this when CCP comes with the hammer. Than you can have my stuff. You is l33t cause you are a learning champ. lol click here

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