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Wave Nagai
Caldari The Mercurial Order
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Posted - 2010.09.06 05:01:00 -
[1]
Which is better in terms of isk/hour?
I just spent a substantial amount of time training for a Golem, and I have a corpmate who seems to think that the Tengu just completely blows it out of the water for missions. I just can't see how it can be so much better, but I really have no idea what the Tengu is capable of and he has never flown a Golem.
So which is it? Also, please do elaborate on why you think whichever one is better.
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Irae Ragwan
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Posted - 2010.09.06 05:35:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Irae Ragwan on 06/09/2010 05:36:26
Originally by: Wave Nagai Which is better in terms of isk/hour?
The golem, for most missions, but if you wanted to be a true min-max'er you'll eventually get both (and some other ships...)
Originally by: Wave Nagai
I just spent a substantial amount of time training for a Golem, and I have a corpmate who seems to think that the Tengu just completely blows it out of the water for missions. I just can't see how it can be so much better, but I really have no idea what the Tengu is capable of and he has never flown a Golem.
So which is it? Also, please do elaborate on why you think whichever one is better.
Your friend is (probably all of these): a) Not a golem pilot b) Not a tengu pilot c) Not aware of how to properly fit one of the above d) Unable to properly account for his isk/hr in either ship
TL;DR: L4 mission farming makes the golem a clear winner. Expanding into lower sec farming, wh farming, or other activities is what makes the tengu shine.
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TheMahdi
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Posted - 2010.09.06 06:07:00 -
[3]
If your absolutely anal about min-maxing your ISK/hr, you'll need both. Golem is far superior for a lot of missions where it's close range DPS and ability to salvage/loot (WC, AE, etc) give you more ISK and faster completion but for a lot of quicker missions where Hit and Runs are involved, or rather "blitzing" the Tengu will be better due to speed and align times.
For true ISK/hr min-maxing, you really need: Golem, Tengu and CNR. The CNR less so as it's only really good for missions like Pirate Invasion. But still, if you need to use one, stick with the Golem, it'll pay off better in the long run if you really can only have one but as soon as you can afford it, get the other 2 imo.
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Wave Nagai
Caldari The Mercurial Order
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Posted - 2010.09.06 07:44:00 -
[4]
Thank you for the replies. Turns out he actually has flown both, but still thinks the Tengu is better. I will probably train for a Tengu eventually since it can be used in such a multitude of ways, but for now I am happy that I chose the Golem as my main mission ship. I just got it last Friday and so far I am loving it. I skipped over the CNR, so it's a big upgrade from the Raven.
Anyway, it's good to know I'm not completely clueless.
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Flex Nebura
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.06 14:49:00 -
[5]
a tengu is certainly quicker to train for. Dont know which of the 2 is cheaper to fit to run the missions though.. gotta think about that too.
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wee toddid
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Posted - 2010.09.06 15:03:00 -
[6]
my expereince with both ships is that the answer to your question depends on a few different things 1st the fittings. if you fit your golem with torps you can get out to about 60km range and do lots of dmg. however in some missions the rats spawn at 100+ which slow's down your isk per hour so most ppl go with cruise. if you fit cruise to your golem the tengu will def out dps it and so therefore the tengu will make more isk/hour
2nd will you loot and salvage? if you are going to loot and salvage and don't have an alt to do it for you, then you need to choose. golem can loot and salvage most missions without moving while you kill. while the tengu you would have to switch ships and come back(most choose not to do this)
so to determine your isk per hour you will have to take these things into consideration. If you were to fit a golem with torps and a tractor beam and salvager this is the best isk/hour that i could think of. but as i pointed out earlier does have some disadvantages.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.06 15:25:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Flex Nebura a tengu is certainly quicker to train for. Dont know which of the 2 is cheaper to fit to run the missions though.. gotta think about that too.
Yeah, but it will only be putting out 300dps when you can actually use it. once you get it up to the 700dps level and beyond, you will gave spent as much time training for it as the golem.
Someone can probably confirm that in evemon. When you say "fanboi" try to picture a fat man doing burlesque with 2 big ass fans that say CCP on one and HTFU on the other. Because that dude is me. |
stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.09.06 15:54:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Cipher Jones once you get it up to the 700dps level and beyond, you will gave spent as much time training for it as the golem.
And you would be wrong.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.06 18:45:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 06/09/2010 18:47:11
I have a CNR and a Tengu.
The Tengu is more no-brainer, as it has a lot more tank (i.e. I've not found a mission yet where I couldn't pull the whole room and go and make a sandwich, and still be sitting there when I got back), but does take longer in most missions as it only does kinetic damage. AE4 bonus room is a joke.
I run missions mostly in the CNR as a result. With an AB, the CNR kites & snipes outside BS range, so its tank is pretty solid too, but actually requires attention.
I'm considering a Golem, but it is still a long ways off for me.
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pohh
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Posted - 2010.09.06 21:07:00 -
[10]
i gotta say this but anyone that thinks the tengu is better for lvl 4's has never flown a torp golem
[Golem, Torp Golem] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Pith B-Type X-Large Shield Booster Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier Invulnerability Field II Photon Scattering Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II Large Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II
Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5
with all lvl 5 skills ( i know most people dont have this but you get the point )this fits puts out 1274 DPS with 8765 volley at a range of 38k ( if you change the torps then yes you get more range and less damage so thats kind of a no brainer really ) that is also not includeing implants
the fit itself isnt that expensive and still has a HUGE tank tho it does need to be pulse tanked, a tengu that can get even close to this kind of damage and tank will cost maybe twice as much as this entire fit.
and before the flames start i personally found it faster to tractor things up into a ball around the ship them come back in a cane fitted for salvageing
PS im not a golem fan boy i dont even have one now, however i do have a tengu so i know what both ships can do
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RentableMuffin
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Posted - 2010.09.06 22:18:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tau Cabalander CNR kites
I lol a little every time you say that
and these days I mostly fly my cnr, take the golem out for EA 1-5, and will fly around caldari space cherry picking kin missions in the tengu/ishtar. prob **** for isk/hour but brainless and mostly pure isk
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Spineker
Caldari Chain of Dogs
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Posted - 2010.09.07 01:51:00 -
[12]
Or just get a Nighthawk park it in any mission and kill everything while making a sandwich and eating it.
If I change from Nighthawk (lazy mans mission runner) it will be a Golem for more cash per hour. That is more DPS.
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Spineker
Caldari Chain of Dogs
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Posted - 2010.09.07 01:54:00 -
[13]
Of course if I were new to the game and wanted the most bang I would go Tengu since it is far less skill point intensive to get started. But then many people run L4 with a Raven but maybe tengu and Raven are close skill point wise? Still to get the max out of a Tengu you need max skills too and damn they are far more expensive than a nighthawk or raven.
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Quantum Antomata
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2010.09.07 14:09:00 -
[14]
I use a torp Golem as my main mission ship, its awesome to say the least. But because I run in Gallente space, there are some missions that like to spawn ships 100+km away or the gate is 50km away. (ie Massive Attack, Serpentis Spies, The Score..) So I recently bought a Tengu for my alt. Having that in my arsenal seriously raised my isk/hour. Mainly you will want both. Or a Golem/CNR combo, but you will want some Cruise missile skills if you go with a CNR.
These are my fits. I just swap the fittings between the two.
[Golem, Beast] Damage Control II Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I
Large Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
[Tengu, Beast v2] Damage Control II Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Cap Recharger II Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field 10MN Afterburner II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
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RentableMuffin
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Posted - 2010.09.07 19:49:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Spineker Or just get a Nighthawk park it in any mission and kill everything while making a sandwich and eating it.
If I change from Nighthawk (lazy mans mission runner) it will be a Golem for more cash per hour. That is more DPS.
I wouldn't use a command ship for ANYTHING in eve at the moment, tengu will out tank and out dps it, and if you really want afk mission running you want a drone ship.
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.07 22:29:00 -
[16]
Originally by: RentableMuffin
Originally by: Tau Cabalander CNR kites
I lol a little every time you say that
Is that lol with me or lol at me?
I've been running level 4 mission for quite a long time, when one day I was bored and fit a cheap AB I had in my hangar. I thought I'd give it a go. The result for me was like night and day. I had to tank far less, so I could pull a whole room and not worry about triggers (webs are my only concern). It was a lot less effort for me. The only downside is the spread of wreckage for salvaging.
Recently without thinking, I did a WTZ in a storyline with a single room and auto-agro (the one where the one named BS runs away), and would have lost the CNR if there was a warp scrambler in the crowd (luckily there wasn't). Warped out, and back in at 100 km, and it was so trivial it was embarrassing.
If it is lol at me, then I'm all ears if anyone has superior advice.
About the only skills I know I lack are T2 sentries and T2 cruise (I use CN launchers) otherwise I use Liang's famous fit. I can two-volley BC and one-volley destroyers, but I do find cruisers to be a PITA. I find a painter really doesn't make a big difference with T1 ammo, so before the AB I had 4x hardeners (dropped one for the AB, as I often turn my hardeners off while kiting). I gave-up on sentries early-on since they couldn't destroy anything at 57 km before it reached 30 km where they couldn't hit it at all. Medium T2 drones seem equally inept on cruisers; I can destroy them faster with cruise volleys.
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RentableMuffin
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Posted - 2010.09.08 00:57:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Tau Cabalander Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 07/09/2010 22:38:46
Originally by: RentableMuffin
Originally by: Tau Cabalander CNR kites
I lol a little every time you say that
Is that lol with me or lol at me?
If it is lol at me, then I'm all ears if anyone has superior advice. I'd love to be able to sit and pull a whole room without worrying; a feat I've only been able to do while kiting with the CNR or in my overtanked Tengu. I'm basically using Liang's CNR fit with CN launchers instead of T2.
A little bit of both, if it works for you great, but at the same time I can't imagine it being faster than just sitting in the middle by the accel gate and tank/spanking it
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Spineker
Caldari Chain of Dogs
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Posted - 2010.09.08 02:39:00 -
[18]
Originally by: RentableMuffin
Originally by: Spineker Or just get a Nighthawk park it in any mission and kill everything while making a sandwich and eating it.
If I change from Nighthawk (lazy mans mission runner) it will be a Golem for more cash per hour. That is more DPS.
I wouldn't use a command ship for ANYTHING in eve at the moment, tengu will out tank and out dps it, and if you really want afk mission running you want a drone ship.
Why would you not use a command ship? Tengu outtank it? Maybe it can out damage it also but there is few missions out there I will not aggro everything in lazyman mode and not come out without worry. Nighthawk is an awesome mission running ship... Well until today.
I spent 750million Isk (huge investment to me with a half dozen or so billion)on a Golem and I can't imagine looking back, yes I will use the nighthawk somedays on missions where I just have time and don't want to mess with all the active crap. However, the Golem is a gem with the right skills. It will take me a bit to regain my investment but I must say WOW. The first few missions I made mistakes I forgot about turning on the shield booster etc because I was use to passive. However once I corrected old habits... Damn the Golem rocks especially for salvage and loot.
I couldn't even remotely think of using a SC over this ship. The only time I will use my wonderful Nighthawk again is on missions i know I will aggro everything. The Nighthawk can still sit still and wipe an entire room without much concern. Yet the Golem can wipe that room using triggers and such in half the time if not less. I ran both AE and GE and wonder why I have spent so much time in a nighthawk...
Tengu is a toy compared to this monster.
The nighthawk cost skill points but if you have them it outshines the tengu which can't produce anything near DPS of the golem without maxed skills. But fly your tengu if you like but if I am going to fly an active ship it will be the Golem hands down.
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Spineker
Caldari Chain of Dogs
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Posted - 2010.09.08 02:45:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Wave Nagai Which is better in terms of isk/hour?
Golem hands down.
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Spineker
Caldari Chain of Dogs
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Posted - 2010.09.08 02:47:00 -
[20]
Originally by: RentableMuffin
Originally by: Spineker Or just get a Nighthawk park it in any mission and kill everything while making a sandwich and eating it.
If I change from Nighthawk (lazy mans mission runner) it will be a Golem for more cash per hour. That is more DPS.
I wouldn't use a command ship for ANYTHING in eve at the moment, tengu will out tank and out dps it, and if you really want afk mission running you want a drone ship.
By the way the nighthawk is 1/3rd the cost of these ships and will tank as good if not better than a Tengu without much concern and I never Afk missions. You missed the basic point.
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Missy Sasha
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Posted - 2010.09.08 03:29:00 -
[21]
The problem with a command ship (aside from huge skill req) is that it doesn't put out the dps of a tengu. A good nighthawk does ~560dps and a good tengu (HML not HAMs) does ~750. This is a huge difference for missions.
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RentableMuffin
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Posted - 2010.09.09 00:57:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Spineker
Originally by: RentableMuffin
Originally by: Spineker Or just get a Nighthawk park it in any mission and kill everything while making a sandwich and eating it.
If I change from Nighthawk (lazy mans mission runner) it will be a Golem for more cash per hour. That is more DPS.
I wouldn't use a command ship for ANYTHING in eve at the moment, tengu will out tank and out dps it, and if you really want afk mission running you want a drone ship.
By the way the nighthawk is 1/3rd the cost of these ships and will tank as good if not better than a Tengu without much concern and I never Afk missions. You missed the basic point.
some of us don't really care about cost 175m vs 500m is a who gives a damn when you are looking at best in class/end game mission running ship. tengu and nighthawk can both have a lolwtfmate tank, I'm going to assume the tengu can do it better though. and my comp isn't in the kitchen so making a sandwich implies going afk
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Spineker
Caldari Chain of Dogs
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Posted - 2010.09.10 03:01:00 -
[23]
Well don't care about isk I don't care that you don't care.
To fly the Tengu correctly isn;t that much less SP than a Command Ship.
I just wanted to LOL at your point that Command Ships are useless I think you are just too far away from ever flying such a ship.
As far as I am concerned I fly L4 missions with the followig ships:
Harpy with speed Nighthawk Golem
Maybe the tengu can do the same I don't really care but if everything could be done with one ship it would be a hell of a boring game. You just fly in your Tengu with min/max skills and pretend it is is everything. I don't care but don't say CommandShips have no place because I they have more than one mission.
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Spineker
Caldari Chain of Dogs
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Posted - 2010.09.10 03:06:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Missy Sasha The problem with a command ship (aside from huge skill req) is that it doesn't put out the dps of a tengu. A good nighthawk does ~560dps and a good tengu (HML not HAMs) does ~750. This is a huge difference for missions.
No it isn't. 4 or 5 mins and you don't have to run around crazy with a CS.
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RentableMuffin
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Posted - 2010.09.10 09:50:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Spineker Well don't care about isk I don't care that you don't care.
To fly the Tengu correctly isn;t that much less SP than a Command Ship.
I just wanted to LOL at your point that Command Ships are useless I think you are just too far away from ever flying such a ship.
As far as I am concerned I fly L4 missions with the followig ships:
Harpy with speed Nighthawk Golem
Maybe the tengu can do the same I don't really care but if everything could be done with one ship it would be a hell of a boring game. You just fly in your Tengu with min/max skills and pretend it is is everything. I don't care but don't say CommandShips have no place because I they have more than one mission.
obviously you don't care
it isn't much less sp, but it still is less sp, and more effective
I have a cs5 alt, every command ship has some ship that out performs it, the only one that is anywhere near desirable is the Sleipnir. the whole fleet bonus line gets out done by t3,
and you may use those ships, that doesn't make them the best ships, the tengu is just a better mission runner than the nighthawk, but I'd still rather use a golem or a cnr in most missions (or better yet a nightmare or machariel)
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RentableMuffin
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Posted - 2010.09.10 09:58:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Spineker
Originally by: Missy Sasha The problem with a command ship (aside from huge skill req) is that it doesn't put out the dps of a tengu. A good nighthawk does ~560dps and a good tengu (HML not HAMs) does ~750. This is a huge difference for missions.
No it isn't. 4 or 5 mins and you don't have to run around crazy with a CS.
4-5mins does indeed make a difference, over time that will bring in a bunch of extra income. and tengu just sits at the warp in point, or orbits the gate at 3000m, hardly running around like crazy
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Khin'charin
Incidental Damage
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Posted - 2010.09.10 11:43:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Missy Sasha The problem with a command ship (aside from huge skill req) is that it doesn't put out the dps of a tengu. A good nighthawk does ~560dps and a good tengu (HML not HAMs) does ~750. This is a huge difference for missions.
Then you're doing it wrong. You can crank out 750 DPS from a mission-fit NightHawk. Compare that to a Tengu's 790 DPS with similar fittings if you want to, but please dont use fail fits as base of arguments.
That being said, a tengu is probably much better suited for the task of shooting up stuff fast. It has higher targeting range and missiles travel both further and faster with a tengu than with a NightHawk. It is also more agile and has higher maxspeed than a NighHawk. In short, the Tengu has much easier DPS application to targets and slightly higher damage output than a NightHawk.
-Khin
I run L4's in my rifter.
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Robert Rumpletweezer
Minmatar Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2010.09.10 14:45:00 -
[28]
I assume for a 750 dps Nighthawk you're factoring in drone damage and Fury Missiles?
Aren't Furies fairly expensive and fairly meh at shooting frigs?
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.10 17:30:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Robert Rumpletweezer I assume for a 750 dps Nighthawk you're factoring in drone damage and Fury Missiles?
Aren't Furies fairly expensive and fairly meh at shooting frigs?
I regularly carry fury and T1 in my Tengu. I don't often use precision, though it does work better than T1, especially on the really fast and small spider drones.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.10 18:09:00 -
[30]
Originally by: pohh
and before the flames start i personally found it faster to tractor things up into a ball around the ship them come back in a cane fitted for salvageing
I'll do my best to not make this a flame, but I think you should take a slightly more scientific look at how you do this. All it takes is a stopwatch and writing down your sell prices to prove that salvaging as you go is more isk/hour efficient over coming back for a wreck ball by a very wide margin.
Only salvage the BSs and BCs, and you're done looting and salvaging by the time the last rat dies.
Just some friendly advice from a former wreck-baller.
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