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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2004.12.29 16:03:00 -
[1]
Cruiser weapons.
That's right, Assault Frigates should have sufficient grid to equip one cruiser weapon among their frig guns. I want to see Hawks firing two light missiles and one heavy. I want to see Retributions with 3 medium pulse lasers and one heavy pulse. I want to see Enyos beating things up with a heavy ion blaster. Oversized guns look totally cool on small ships, as evidenced by the Khanid Detectives. There's no need to worry about them cramming on a medium tech II armor rep because their capacitors are crap and they have no chance of sustaining one.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2004.12.29 16:03:00 -
[2]
Cruiser weapons.
That's right, Assault Frigates should have sufficient grid to equip one cruiser weapon among their frig guns. I want to see Hawks firing two light missiles and one heavy. I want to see Retributions with 3 medium pulse lasers and one heavy pulse. I want to see Enyos beating things up with a heavy ion blaster. Oversized guns look totally cool on small ships, as evidenced by the Khanid Detectives. There's no need to worry about them cramming on a medium tech II armor rep because their capacitors are crap and they have no chance of sustaining one.
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Alex Harumichi
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Posted - 2004.12.29 16:25:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 29/12/2004 16:27:16
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 29/12/2004 16:27:06
Ummm, what?
Assault frigates are fine. They do perfectly good damage and perform their main role (anti-frig) admirably. They are not optimal for pvp right now due to the cruise missile imbalance and their high cost, but I suspect both will change over time. Assault frigates are better at running lvl3 missions than cruisers are. I think that's quite enough for something that is still just a frigate.
Where is the "irrelevance"? I use my Enyo more than any other ship, nowadays.
Added: granted, their name is confusing, they should have kept the original name of "escort frigate", it's much more appropriate. As is, "assault frigates" and "assault cruisers" have very different roles in the game, a bit confusing.
Assault frigates are super-destroyers, in a way. Assault cruisers are super-battlecruisers ;).
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Alex Harumichi
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Posted - 2004.12.29 16:25:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 29/12/2004 16:27:16
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 29/12/2004 16:27:06
Ummm, what?
Assault frigates are fine. They do perfectly good damage and perform their main role (anti-frig) admirably. They are not optimal for pvp right now due to the cruise missile imbalance and their high cost, but I suspect both will change over time. Assault frigates are better at running lvl3 missions than cruisers are. I think that's quite enough for something that is still just a frigate.
Where is the "irrelevance"? I use my Enyo more than any other ship, nowadays.
Added: granted, their name is confusing, they should have kept the original name of "escort frigate", it's much more appropriate. As is, "assault frigates" and "assault cruisers" have very different roles in the game, a bit confusing.
Assault frigates are super-destroyers, in a way. Assault cruisers are super-battlecruisers ;).
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Magorath
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Posted - 2004.12.29 16:27:00 -
[5]
You sir, are an idiot, sir.
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Magorath
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Posted - 2004.12.29 16:27:00 -
[6]
You sir, are an idiot, sir.
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Toran Mehtar
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Posted - 2004.12.29 16:27:00 -
[7]
The only thing wrong with assault frigs is that they get wtfpwned by cruise missiles, but that could be said for a lot of ships at the moment (i.e. any cruiser).
Hopefully one day CCP will find a way of making large missiles less effective against smaller ships without messing things up. I'd settle for the retribution getting a launcher hardpoint to keep me going, just to bring it in line with it equivalents from other races (enyo, harpy and wolf).
As for improving them, the ability to fit cruiser weapons has to be the worst idea ever. There are plenty of cruiser pilots who fit frig weapons for better performance (due to tracking issues). So why would I want to fit larger weapons on my frig ?
Oh, and crap capacitors ? lmao.
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Toran Mehtar
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Posted - 2004.12.29 16:27:00 -
[8]
The only thing wrong with assault frigs is that they get wtfpwned by cruise missiles, but that could be said for a lot of ships at the moment (i.e. any cruiser).
Hopefully one day CCP will find a way of making large missiles less effective against smaller ships without messing things up. I'd settle for the retribution getting a launcher hardpoint to keep me going, just to bring it in line with it equivalents from other races (enyo, harpy and wolf).
As for improving them, the ability to fit cruiser weapons has to be the worst idea ever. There are plenty of cruiser pilots who fit frig weapons for better performance (due to tracking issues). So why would I want to fit larger weapons on my frig ?
Oh, and crap capacitors ? lmao.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2004.12.29 16:29:00 -
[9]
Man, sometimes I have to wonder where you people buy your assault frigates, because they're not the same assault frigates I've been trying. Fine, stick with your "perfectly balanced" ships, I'm quite happy padding my kill mails with those overpriced paperweights.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2004.12.29 16:29:00 -
[10]
Man, sometimes I have to wonder where you people buy your assault frigates, because they're not the same assault frigates I've been trying. Fine, stick with your "perfectly balanced" ships, I'm quite happy padding my kill mails with those overpriced paperweights.
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Spartna
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Posted - 2004.12.29 16:31:00 -
[11]
well nice for you Istvaan Shogaatsu but not everyone shares your opinion.
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I sure hope they have found a cure for cancer in EVE that would make it better than real life... |
Spartna
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Posted - 2004.12.29 16:31:00 -
[12]
well nice for you Istvaan Shogaatsu but not everyone shares your opinion.
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I sure hope they have found a cure for cancer in EVE that would make it better than real life... |
Alex Harumichi
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Posted - 2004.12.29 16:33:00 -
[13]
 Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Man, sometimes I have to wonder where you people buy your assault frigates, because they're not the same assault frigates I've been trying. Fine, stick with your "perfectly balanced" ships, I'm quite happy padding my kill mails with those overpriced paperweights.
I haven't tried pvp in an Enyo, so maybe there is something I'm missing here. It's a fantastic ship for PVE.
So, what's wrong with assault frigates in your opinion? Is it something other than the cruise missile situation? I'm honestly curious, to me it seems that an interceptor or a cruiser would have a hard time against an assault frig. No, I would not fly one against a battleship, if that's what you're trying to do. 
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Alex Harumichi
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Posted - 2004.12.29 16:33:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Man, sometimes I have to wonder where you people buy your assault frigates, because they're not the same assault frigates I've been trying. Fine, stick with your "perfectly balanced" ships, I'm quite happy padding my kill mails with those overpriced paperweights.
I haven't tried pvp in an Enyo, so maybe there is something I'm missing here. It's a fantastic ship for PVE.
So, what's wrong with assault frigates in your opinion? Is it something other than the cruise missile situation? I'm honestly curious, to me it seems that an interceptor or a cruiser would have a hard time against an assault frig. No, I would not fly one against a battleship, if that's what you're trying to do.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2004.12.29 16:39:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 29/12/2004 16:52:38
The thing wrong with them isn't at all that they're vulnerable to cruise missiles. It's that unlike assault cruisers in relation to normal cruisers, assault frigates are worse than their vanilla frigate counterparts in countless ways. They're actually slower than a standard frigate. Some have less slots than their standard frigate counterparts - look at the Retribution, a ship which will -never- find use in PVP no matter how much deranged assault frigate loyalists will bleat to the contrary in lieu of its single impotent midslot.
Assault cruisers are faster than standard cruisers. They're better armoured. They have stronger capacitors. They hit easily three times as hard, they have superior grid, superior slottage, they're better, better, better in almost every conceiveable way.
I just want assault frigates to beat standard frigates in more things. They don't have to pace interceptors in velocity, but is it too much to ask for a Retribution to not lose a race with a Punisher? Raw firepower could certainly use a boost, especially with respect to tracking - I've taken apart Enyos in my Crusader because the Enyo couldn't hit me worth a damn with its railguns while I orbited it at 5km using MWD. If cruiser guns aren't to your liking, surely you won't dispute that a heavy missile launcher is better than a standard.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2004.12.29 16:39:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 29/12/2004 16:52:38
The thing wrong with them isn't at all that they're vulnerable to cruise missiles. It's that unlike assault cruisers in relation to normal cruisers, assault frigates are worse than their vanilla frigate counterparts in countless ways. They're actually slower than a standard frigate. Some have less slots than their standard frigate counterparts - look at the Retribution, a ship which will -never- find use in PVP no matter how much deranged assault frigate loyalists will bleat to the contrary in lieu of its single impotent midslot.
Assault cruisers are faster than standard cruisers. They're better armoured. They have stronger capacitors. They hit easily three times as hard, they have superior grid, superior slottage, they're better, better, better in almost every conceiveable way.
I just want assault frigates to beat standard frigates in more things. They don't have to pace interceptors in velocity, but is it too much to ask for a Retribution to not lose a race with a Punisher? Raw firepower could certainly use a boost, especially with respect to tracking - I've taken apart Enyos in my Crusader because the Enyo couldn't hit me worth a damn with its railguns while I orbited it at 5km using MWD. If cruiser guns aren't to your liking, surely you won't dispute that a heavy missile launcher is better than a standard.
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Magorath
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Posted - 2004.12.29 16:53:00 -
[17]
If the enyo couldn't tank you he was doing somthing wrong. I've seen an Enyo tank 10+ heavy drones for over a minute befor it had to warp out. Only things that break my wolf's tank is a taranis or a crazy missile spamming kestral.
Both the Wolf a Jaguar have more armor shield and hull then the base rifter. Wolf having over double the base armor then a rifter. No extra slots? Wolf 5/2/4 Jaguar 4/3/3 Rifter 4/2/2 No idea what you are moaning about. Only thing I can't argue abotu is speed because both do not recive the 5% speed per frigate skill like the rifter does.
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Magorath
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Posted - 2004.12.29 16:53:00 -
[18]
If the enyo couldn't tank you he was doing somthing wrong. I've seen an Enyo tank 10+ heavy drones for over a minute befor it had to warp out. Only things that break my wolf's tank is a taranis or a crazy missile spamming kestral.
Both the Wolf a Jaguar have more armor shield and hull then the base rifter. Wolf having over double the base armor then a rifter. No extra slots? Wolf 5/2/4 Jaguar 4/3/3 Rifter 4/2/2 No idea what you are moaning about. Only thing I can't argue abotu is speed because both do not recive the 5% speed per frigate skill like the rifter does.
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Siobhan Ni
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Posted - 2004.12.29 16:54:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Some have less slots than their standard frigate counterparts - look at the Retribution, a ship which will -never- find use in PVP no matter how much deranged assault frigate loyalists will bleat to the contrary in lieu of its single impotent midslot.
You have no idea what you are talking about. The retribution has fierce fire power for a frigate. I've killed countless interceptors and cruisers with mine. I've also taken down BS with the help of a few other assualt ships. Just learn how to use them properly in ther role they were designed for. They're not supposed to be as fast and as agile as other frigates. What they lask in speed they more than make up for in fire power and damage resistance. And cruise missiles... warp out if you see an enemy launching them.
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Siobhan Ni
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Posted - 2004.12.29 16:54:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Some have less slots than their standard frigate counterparts - look at the Retribution, a ship which will -never- find use in PVP no matter how much deranged assault frigate loyalists will bleat to the contrary in lieu of its single impotent midslot.
You have no idea what you are talking about. The retribution has fierce fire power for a frigate. I've killed countless interceptors and cruisers with mine. I've also taken down BS with the help of a few other assualt ships. Just learn how to use them properly in ther role they were designed for. They're not supposed to be as fast and as agile as other frigates. What they lask in speed they more than make up for in fire power and damage resistance. And cruise missiles... warp out if you see an enemy launching them.
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Alex Harumichi
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Posted - 2004.12.29 16:55:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
I just want assault frigates to beat standard frigates in more things. They don't have to pace interceptors in velocity, but is it too much to ask for a Retribution to not lose a race with a Punisher? Raw firepower could certainly use a boost, especially with respect to tracking - I've taken apart Enyos in my Crusader because the Enyo couldn't hit me worth a damn with its railguns while I orbited it at 5km using MWD.
Hmmm. In my opinion, any assault frigate pilot who does not have a webber fitted is asking to go home in a pod... but that's just my opinion
Ok, I see you point, and I do agree that the frigate-to-af gap is much smaller than the cruiser-to-hac gap. But partly I think it's because the roles are different, the assault frigates are clearly meant for a specialized role (anti-frigate) while assault cruisers are, well, just much better versions of their base cruisers. You also see this in the ship models, an Ishtar is a better Vexor and the Deimos is a better Thorax. Whereas the Enyo has pretty much nothing in common with the ship model it's based on (Incu), it's a totally different role.
Thing is, there already is a "better general-use frigate" class available, interceptors. So assault frigates are more specialized.
Dunno, I've been happy with my Enyo (and Ishkur) but like I said, haven't tried pvp yet. Maybe I'll go home in an egg, maybe the other guy will. We'll see 
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Alex Harumichi
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Posted - 2004.12.29 16:55:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
I just want assault frigates to beat standard frigates in more things. They don't have to pace interceptors in velocity, but is it too much to ask for a Retribution to not lose a race with a Punisher? Raw firepower could certainly use a boost, especially with respect to tracking - I've taken apart Enyos in my Crusader because the Enyo couldn't hit me worth a damn with its railguns while I orbited it at 5km using MWD.
Hmmm. In my opinion, any assault frigate pilot who does not have a webber fitted is asking to go home in a pod... but that's just my opinion
Ok, I see you point, and I do agree that the frigate-to-af gap is much smaller than the cruiser-to-hac gap. But partly I think it's because the roles are different, the assault frigates are clearly meant for a specialized role (anti-frigate) while assault cruisers are, well, just much better versions of their base cruisers. You also see this in the ship models, an Ishtar is a better Vexor and the Deimos is a better Thorax. Whereas the Enyo has pretty much nothing in common with the ship model it's based on (Incu), it's a totally different role.
Thing is, there already is a "better general-use frigate" class available, interceptors. So assault frigates are more specialized.
Dunno, I've been happy with my Enyo (and Ishkur) but like I said, haven't tried pvp yet. Maybe I'll go home in an egg, maybe the other guy will. We'll see
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2004.12.29 16:57:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 29/12/2004 16:59:53
He tanked me. Then his cap ran dry because he was trying to shoot me down with antimatter and keep me warpscrambled (or disrupted?). Then he stopped tanking me. Then he died because a Crusader can sustain MWD, guns and scrambler, whereas an Enyo apparently cannot. This is supposed to be the ultimate interceptor stopper?
Regarding speed, ever look at your ship mass compared to a normal frigate? It's double that of the vanilla version, but usually has the same or slower base speed. This means assault frigs are roughly half as fast as normal frigs. Don't you see anything wrong with this?
I miss the days when calling a ship class 'specialized' meant it was actually good at things. Nowadays it seems to be a synonym for 'cripple'.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2004.12.29 16:57:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 29/12/2004 16:59:53
He tanked me. Then his cap ran dry because he was trying to shoot me down with antimatter and keep me warpscrambled (or disrupted?). Then he stopped tanking me. Then he died because a Crusader can sustain MWD, guns and scrambler, whereas an Enyo apparently cannot. This is supposed to be the ultimate interceptor stopper?
Regarding speed, ever look at your ship mass compared to a normal frigate? It's double that of the vanilla version, but usually has the same or slower base speed. This means assault frigs are roughly half as fast as normal frigs. Don't you see anything wrong with this?
I miss the days when calling a ship class 'specialized' meant it was actually good at things. Nowadays it seems to be a synonym for 'cripple'.
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Toran Mehtar
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Posted - 2004.12.29 17:00:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
The thing wrong with them isn't at all that they're vulnerable to cruise missiles.
So you're saying they're not vulnerable to cruise missiles ? 
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
It's that unlike assault cruisers in relation to normal cruisers, assault frigates are worse than their vanilla frigate counterparts in countless ways.
I would not call 2 (dubious) ways 'countless'
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
They're actually slower than a standard frigate. Some have less slots than their standard frigate counterparts - look at the Retribution, a ship which will -never- find use in PVP no matter how much deranged assault frigate loyalists will bleat to the contrary in lieu of its single impotent midslot.
Last time I looked, the sacrilege had one less low slot than a maller, the ishtar has one less turret than the vexor. Are they both as b0rked ?
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Assault cruisers are faster than standard cruisers. They're better armoured. They have stronger capacitors. They hit easily three times as hard, they have superior grid, superior slottage, they're better, better, better in almost every conceiveable way.
Apart from speed, all of those apply to assault frigs, so did you have a point ?
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
is it too much to ask for a Retribution to not lose a race with a Punisher?
Yes, I bought a retribution to race in 
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
I've taken apart Enyos in my Crusader because the Enyo couldn't hit me worth a damn with its railguns while I orbited it at 5km using MWD.
He didn't fit a web, he was a noob, he died. That has nothing to do with the ship, unless you count the fact that somebody with the skill points to fly an enyo should have known better.
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Toran Mehtar
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Posted - 2004.12.29 17:00:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
The thing wrong with them isn't at all that they're vulnerable to cruise missiles.
So you're saying they're not vulnerable to cruise missiles ?
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
It's that unlike assault cruisers in relation to normal cruisers, assault frigates are worse than their vanilla frigate counterparts in countless ways.
I would not call 2 (dubious) ways 'countless'
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
They're actually slower than a standard frigate. Some have less slots than their standard frigate counterparts - look at the Retribution, a ship which will -never- find use in PVP no matter how much deranged assault frigate loyalists will bleat to the contrary in lieu of its single impotent midslot.
Last time I looked, the sacrilege had one less low slot than a maller, the ishtar has one less turret than the vexor. Are they both as b0rked ?
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Assault cruisers are faster than standard cruisers. They're better armoured. They have stronger capacitors. They hit easily three times as hard, they have superior grid, superior slottage, they're better, better, better in almost every conceiveable way.
Apart from speed, all of those apply to assault frigs, so did you have a point ?
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
is it too much to ask for a Retribution to not lose a race with a Punisher?
Yes, I bought a retribution to race in
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
I've taken apart Enyos in my Crusader because the Enyo couldn't hit me worth a damn with its railguns while I orbited it at 5km using MWD.
He didn't fit a web, he was a noob, he died. That has nothing to do with the ship, unless you count the fact that somebody with the skill points to fly an enyo should have known better.
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Masta Killa
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Posted - 2004.12.29 17:02:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Magorath
You sir, are an idiot, sir.
I support that...
AF's can already kill almost any cruiser that isn't set up specifically to kill that exact AF.
If you wanna spend your 30 mil more wisely then buy 10 bb's 
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We are The Collective. Resistance is futile. |
Masta Killa
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Posted - 2004.12.29 17:02:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Magorath
You sir, are an idiot, sir.
I support that...
AF's can already kill almost any cruiser that isn't set up specifically to kill that exact AF.
If you wanna spend your 30 mil more wisely then buy 10 bb's
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We are The Collective. Resistance is futile. |
MadGaz
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Posted - 2004.12.29 17:03:00 -
[29]
Retribution never used for pvp?
I dunno what you're smoking, I've got a damage mod of 7.3x on my med pulse II, it can tank like a ho aswell. Excellent ship to complement a small group of frigs.
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MadGaz
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Posted - 2004.12.29 17:03:00 -
[30]
Retribution never used for pvp?
I dunno what you're smoking, I've got a damage mod of 7.3x on my med pulse II, it can tank like a ho aswell. Excellent ship to complement a small group of frigs.
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Fenix Rebirth
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Posted - 2004.12.29 17:05:00 -
[31]
we run a wing of Jaguars and its awesome, no complaints at all I also have an Iskur and Enyo and they have yet to lose to a cruiser with full racks of Tech II blasters churning out over 300 dmg every 3 seconds no complaints and they have a reasonable armour tank. Only thing I agree with is the Gallante Assault frigs speed its CRAP!!!
I prefer to be in at 500mtrs gettin there is the problem! I prefer not to use railguns. But overall they eat cruisers intys and frigs without to much hassle.
I dont suffer from Insanity *I ENJOY EVERY FECKIN MINUTE OF IT* |
Fenix Rebirth
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Posted - 2004.12.29 17:05:00 -
[32]
we run a wing of Jaguars and its awesome, no complaints at all I also have an Iskur and Enyo and they have yet to lose to a cruiser with full racks of Tech II blasters churning out over 300 dmg every 3 seconds no complaints and they have a reasonable armour tank. Only thing I agree with is the Gallante Assault frigs speed its CRAP!!!
I prefer to be in at 500mtrs gettin there is the problem! I prefer not to use railguns. But overall they eat cruisers intys and frigs without to much hassle.
I dont suffer from Insanity *I ENJOY EVERY FECKIN MINUTE OF IT* |
Iratus Caelestis
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Posted - 2004.12.29 17:08:00 -
[33]
Ship bonuses make the difference in damage between a small weapon and a medium one without ship modifiers negligble.
They don't need a cruiser weapon any more than a Heavy Assault needs a BS weapon.
They are pretty balanced, they just need to be used right. If the pilots you've fought in them are crap then your opinion will obviously be skewed.
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Iratus Caelestis
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Posted - 2004.12.29 17:08:00 -
[34]
Ship bonuses make the difference in damage between a small weapon and a medium one without ship modifiers negligble.
They don't need a cruiser weapon any more than a Heavy Assault needs a BS weapon.
They are pretty balanced, they just need to be used right. If the pilots you've fought in them are crap then your opinion will obviously be skewed.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2004.12.29 17:10:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 29/12/2004 17:11:07
I give up. I was clearly wrong. Assault frigates are perfect as they are.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2004.12.29 17:10:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 29/12/2004 17:11:07
I give up. I was clearly wrong. Assault frigates are perfect as they are.
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JoeSomebody
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Posted - 2004.12.29 17:31:00 -
[37]
I agree that Assault frigs (but not heavies) lack survivability... especialy Caldari ones due to dumb distribution of resistances. Even with 2 passive EM hardeners fitted i cant imagine doin lvl3 Bloodriders/Sansha mission - i will be torn apart in seconds. Now this does not really apply to Heavy assaults, as they can reasonably easy run 2x active EM hardeners (even tho it puts them into disadvantage compare to other faction ships).
As for frigs... EM damage is way to common, and that kinda defeats whole "assault" idea 
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When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..." |
JoeSomebody
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Posted - 2004.12.29 17:31:00 -
[38]
I agree that Assault frigs (but not heavies) lack survivability... especialy Caldari ones due to dumb distribution of resistances. Even with 2 passive EM hardeners fitted i cant imagine doin lvl3 Bloodriders/Sansha mission - i will be torn apart in seconds. Now this does not really apply to Heavy assaults, as they can reasonably easy run 2x active EM hardeners (even tho it puts them into disadvantage compare to other faction ships).
As for frigs... EM damage is way to common, and that kinda defeats whole "assault" idea
____
When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..." |
JoCool
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Posted - 2004.12.29 17:41:00 -
[39]
Edited by: JoCool on 29/12/2004 17:41:42
The Vengeance lacks some damage output. If the resistances were distributed smarter on its shields it could tank those and thus use one or two lowslots for damage mods, to make up for its crappy armament.
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JoCool
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Posted - 2004.12.29 17:41:00 -
[40]
Edited by: JoCool on 29/12/2004 17:41:42
The Vengeance lacks some damage output. If the resistances were distributed smarter on its shields it could tank those and thus use one or two lowslots for damage mods, to make up for its crappy armament.
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Skullbunny
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Posted - 2004.12.29 17:44:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Toran Mehtar
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
The thing wrong with them isn't at all that they're vulnerable to cruise missiles.
So you're saying they're not vulnerable to cruise missiles ?
No he's saying that the vulnerability isn't his gripe, not that the vulnerability doesn't exist. Even I can see that.
*Sigh* Toran, it is painfully clear that you tried desperately to come off as being intelligent, but instead you only came off as a total dolt, who's only reason for posting was to have a few cheap stabs at someone for no apparant reason.
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Skullbunny
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Posted - 2004.12.29 17:44:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Toran Mehtar
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
The thing wrong with them isn't at all that they're vulnerable to cruise missiles.
So you're saying they're not vulnerable to cruise missiles ?
No he's saying that the vulnerability isn't his gripe, not that the vulnerability doesn't exist. Even I can see that.
*Sigh* Toran, it is painfully clear that you tried desperately to come off as being intelligent, but instead you only came off as a total dolt, who's only reason for posting was to have a few cheap stabs at someone for no apparant reason.
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Toran Mehtar
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Posted - 2004.12.29 18:29:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Skullbunny
*Sigh* Toran, it is painfully clear that you tried desperately to come off as being intelligent, but instead you only came off as a total dolt, who's only reason for posting was to have a few cheap stabs at someone for no apparant reason.
So the reason for your post is..... ?
Of course, you're quite right though. That comment was a cheap attempt at humour based on a single line written in such a way that it could be interpreted other than as the writer intended. Fortunately, I also decided to make other comments regarding the topic being discussed, rather than simply throw insults to make me look superior.
Shame that some other people fall into that trap though.
Oh, btw; did you have any comments about assault frigs ?
|
Toran Mehtar
|
Posted - 2004.12.29 18:29:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Skullbunny
*Sigh* Toran, it is painfully clear that you tried desperately to come off as being intelligent, but instead you only came off as a total dolt, who's only reason for posting was to have a few cheap stabs at someone for no apparant reason.
So the reason for your post is..... ?
Of course, you're quite right though. That comment was a cheap attempt at humour based on a single line written in such a way that it could be interpreted other than as the writer intended. Fortunately, I also decided to make other comments regarding the topic being discussed, rather than simply throw insults to make me look superior.
Shame that some other people fall into that trap though.
Oh, btw; did you have any comments about assault frigs ?
|
Bad'Boy
|
Posted - 2004.12.29 20:32:00 -
[45]
I own an Enyo, great ship For PvP...own frigs and intys easy....tank good, and have gread damage output...
I'v been atatcke dby ferox, caracal, destoryer and 2 frigs, killed destroyer and a frig and got out with fulla armor, was low on cap tho...
great ship..
B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling
"Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
|
Bad'Boy
|
Posted - 2004.12.29 20:32:00 -
[46]
I own an Enyo, great ship For PvP...own frigs and intys easy....tank good, and have gread damage output...
I'v been atatcke dby ferox, caracal, destoryer and 2 frigs, killed destroyer and a frig and got out with fulla armor, was low on cap tho...
great ship..
B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling
"Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
|
Bad'Boy
|
Posted - 2004.12.29 20:40:00 -
[47]
ass frigs rules, when missiles get fixed they'll be even better..
B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling
"Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
|
Bad'Boy
|
Posted - 2004.12.29 20:40:00 -
[48]
ass frigs rules, when missiles get fixed they'll be even better..
B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling
"Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
|
Joshua Calvert
|
Posted - 2004.12.29 20:43:00 -
[49]
Fitting 4 125mm II's puts out more damage than one cruiser-sized weapon..........
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Joshua Calvert
|
Posted - 2004.12.29 20:43:00 -
[50]
Fitting 4 125mm II's puts out more damage than one cruiser-sized weapon..........
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
RollinDutchMasters
|
Posted - 2004.12.29 20:48:00 -
[51]
Assault frigates are excellent for what they do. The fact that you ran into an enyo who elected to use blasters (a very stupid move, IMO, since you lack the speed to close on most targets) doesnt change that fact.
I'll agree the retribution needs another turret, right now I'd take a crusader over a retribution for every application.
As for increasing the grid on all of them to allow them to fit cruiser weapons, I have just one thing to say to that - 10mn MWD.
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
|
RollinDutchMasters
|
Posted - 2004.12.29 20:48:00 -
[52]
Assault frigates are excellent for what they do. The fact that you ran into an enyo who elected to use blasters (a very stupid move, IMO, since you lack the speed to close on most targets) doesnt change that fact.
I'll agree the retribution needs another turret, right now I'd take a crusader over a retribution for every application.
As for increasing the grid on all of them to allow them to fit cruiser weapons, I have just one thing to say to that - 10mn MWD.
Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
|
Shamis Orzoz
|
Posted - 2004.12.29 21:36:00 -
[53]
I can't remember what item it was, but I know I fit 1 cruiser weapon on my wolf before. This setup sucked nuts of course, but it was fun.
All in all, I think assault frigs will be great if CCP ever fixes missles, and for now they are great as long as the enemy missle users don't see them.
|
Shamis Orzoz
|
Posted - 2004.12.29 21:36:00 -
[54]
I can't remember what item it was, but I know I fit 1 cruiser weapon on my wolf before. This setup sucked nuts of course, but it was fun.
All in all, I think assault frigs will be great if CCP ever fixes missles, and for now they are great as long as the enemy missle users don't see them.
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KompleX
|
Posted - 2004.12.29 23:05:00 -
[55]
Nah, the assault friggies are perfectly fine atm, and BALANCED! And most of them already deal more dammage than most cruisers.
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KompleX
|
Posted - 2004.12.29 23:05:00 -
[56]
Nah, the assault friggies are perfectly fine atm, and BALANCED! And most of them already deal more dammage than most cruisers.
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xenorx
|
Posted - 2004.12.29 23:48:00 -
[57]
I have both the Retribution and Vengence. I love them both, though I prefer the Vengence for the extra mid slots. The retribution has plenty of firepower to be a real threat in PvP. Mix the two types in a group and you have the best of both worlds. The Vengence can scramble and web with the Retribution bashing their brains out. The only thing I dont like about them is the speed. Everyone says that missles need to be fixed but I think they just need to give the assault frigates a bit of a speed boost and they would be ideal IMO. I am not suggesting they be as fast as an intercepter. Im just saying they need to be just a bit faster than the frigates they were based on. If they did that there would be speed options to deal with the cruise missle problem without really hitting the missle spammers to hard with the nerf bat.
As far as being able to fit oversized weapons Im against it. I have no complaints with the damage I get from my small T2 pulses.
|
xenorx
|
Posted - 2004.12.29 23:48:00 -
[58]
I have both the Retribution and Vengence. I love them both, though I prefer the Vengence for the extra mid slots. The retribution has plenty of firepower to be a real threat in PvP. Mix the two types in a group and you have the best of both worlds. The Vengence can scramble and web with the Retribution bashing their brains out. The only thing I dont like about them is the speed. Everyone says that missles need to be fixed but I think they just need to give the assault frigates a bit of a speed boost and they would be ideal IMO. I am not suggesting they be as fast as an intercepter. Im just saying they need to be just a bit faster than the frigates they were based on. If they did that there would be speed options to deal with the cruise missle problem without really hitting the missle spammers to hard with the nerf bat.
As far as being able to fit oversized weapons Im against it. I have no complaints with the damage I get from my small T2 pulses.
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MavricktheGreat
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 03:16:00 -
[59]
I have yet to PVP in my Enyo, but I just got done fighting 25+ ships including a 2.5 mill mega and WON!! I've never had so many ships firing on me at once and I was amazed that I was able to finish the level and not warp out. The cruise missiles hurt but my tech II repairer had not problem keeping up. 91% Kinetic resistance and 74% thermal works wonders. Level 4 kill missions are nothing now and once I'm orbiting the NPC BS's at 500m they don't stand a chance.
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MavricktheGreat
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 03:16:00 -
[60]
I have yet to PVP in my Enyo, but I just got done fighting 25+ ships including a 2.5 mill mega and WON!! I've never had so many ships firing on me at once and I was amazed that I was able to finish the level and not warp out. The cruise missiles hurt but my tech II repairer had not problem keeping up. 91% Kinetic resistance and 74% thermal works wonders. Level 4 kill missions are nothing now and once I'm orbiting the NPC BS's at 500m they don't stand a chance.
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Diamond Dog
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 03:39:00 -
[61]
I totally disagree ...
Assault frigs are better than almost any tech 1 cruiser and they pack a massive punch.
They would be totally unbalanced if they could yield cruiser modules...
Ohhh and Enyo + Blasters is crap. Go with 125mm rails and it rocks.
________________________________________
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Diamond Dog
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 03:39:00 -
[62]
I totally disagree ...
Assault frigs are better than almost any tech 1 cruiser and they pack a massive punch.
They would be totally unbalanced if they could yield cruiser modules...
Ohhh and Enyo + Blasters is crap. Go with 125mm rails and it rocks.
________________________________________
|
Shadowsword
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 07:55:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Shadowsword on 30/12/2004 07:55:32
Assault frigs are fine as they are now, but I'm concerned about the future HP changes. A lot of AFs depend on how fast they kill their target, because they don't have the slots for a web and a scrambler. If after the change the interceptor pilot has time to go take a shower, drink a coffee and return to press "warp away", half of those AFs will become little more than scarecrows...
Edited for spelling.
|
Shadowsword
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 07:55:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Shadowsword on 30/12/2004 07:55:32
Assault frigs are fine as they are now, but I'm concerned about the future HP changes. A lot of AFs depend on how fast they kill their target, because they don't have the slots for a web and a scrambler. If after the change the interceptor pilot has time to go take a shower, drink a coffee and return to press "warp away", half of those AFs will become little more than scarecrows...
Edited for spelling.
|
Moridin
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 09:51:00 -
[65]
I love Assaults frig¦s. my Harpy fitted for optimal dmg output can take down a cruiser in about 60+ seconds solo. also have kill mail to prove it. a minute from some pesky frig kill to the cruiser kill. and let us not go into how fast you can kill a frig/inty with a assault
there are 13 people with Elvis in there name. i intend to get them all and bury the bastard once and for all |
Moridin
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 09:51:00 -
[66]
I love Assaults frig¦s. my Harpy fitted for optimal dmg output can take down a cruiser in about 60+ seconds solo. also have kill mail to prove it. a minute from some pesky frig kill to the cruiser kill. and let us not go into how fast you can kill a frig/inty with a assault
there are 13 people with Elvis in there name. i intend to get them all and bury the bastard once and for all |
Meridius
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 09:54:00 -
[67]
Oversized turrets looks cool, anyone who says otherwise should be shot in the face.
The Khanid ship with medium turrets got me so wet about assault frigates way back when.
What a shame.
________________________________________________________
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Meridius
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 09:54:00 -
[68]
Oversized turrets looks cool, anyone who says otherwise should be shot in the face.
The Khanid ship with medium turrets got me so wet about assault frigates way back when.
What a shame.
________________________________________________________
|
Nadec Ascand
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 09:55:00 -
[69]
Put the fact that actually an assault frigate caldari harpy cost 24m or that the bpc 1 run cost 10m.
Plus put the fact that Harpy is SHIELD tanked and that is EMP resistance is 0%... so u have to put in some shield hardener to get this back...
I feel it no fair ... im cant stand a resistance on my armor higher than on my shield if i need to shield tank... i cant stand an emp hardener 50% or 2 coz my cap gonna blow up easily.
BUT
thats the only thing disturbing me with thoose assault frigs... yeah they a bit slow... but i dont care in my harpy i gonna shoot for long range anyway :)
Yeah im caldari... and yeah im flying a megatron...
Why coz maybe now only caldary are tough enough to fly those and evryone use caldari ship...
|
Nadec Ascand
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 09:55:00 -
[70]
Put the fact that actually an assault frigate caldari harpy cost 24m or that the bpc 1 run cost 10m.
Plus put the fact that Harpy is SHIELD tanked and that is EMP resistance is 0%... so u have to put in some shield hardener to get this back...
I feel it no fair ... im cant stand a resistance on my armor higher than on my shield if i need to shield tank... i cant stand an emp hardener 50% or 2 coz my cap gonna blow up easily.
BUT
thats the only thing disturbing me with thoose assault frigs... yeah they a bit slow... but i dont care in my harpy i gonna shoot for long range anyway :)
Yeah im caldari... and yeah im flying a megatron...
Why coz maybe now only caldary are tough enough to fly those and evryone use caldari ship...
|
Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 11:29:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa on 30/12/2004 11:30:23
Assault Frigates will NEVER receive a speed-boost, and especially not one that makes them faster than the ship they were based upon.
For one thing.... they are heavier due to all that extra armour, extra hardpoints, etc...
More importantly: No frigate will ever be able to leave a starbase again... all ships out there are bigger, badder and meaner than you... and you've got a snowballs chance in Hell to get away...
Standard tech 1 frigates still need to be playable, otherwise you'll have new players spamming this board with requests to boost base frigs again, and we can have all these conversations all over... again.
Happy Newyear.
|
Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 11:29:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa on 30/12/2004 11:30:23
Assault Frigates will NEVER receive a speed-boost, and especially not one that makes them faster than the ship they were based upon.
For one thing.... they are heavier due to all that extra armour, extra hardpoints, etc...
More importantly: No frigate will ever be able to leave a starbase again... all ships out there are bigger, badder and meaner than you... and you've got a snowballs chance in Hell to get away...
Standard tech 1 frigates still need to be playable, otherwise you'll have new players spamming this board with requests to boost base frigs again, and we can have all these conversations all over... again.
Happy Newyear.
|
Xtro 2
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 11:35:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Toran Mehtar
The only thing wrong with assault frigs is that they get wtfpwned by cruise missiles, but that could be said for a lot of ships at the moment (i.e. any cruiser).
Hopefully one day CCP will find a way of making large missiles less effective against smaller ships without messing things up. I'd settle for the retribution getting a launcher hardpoint to keep me going, just to bring it in line with it equivalents from other races (enyo, harpy and wolf).
As for improving them, the ability to fit cruiser weapons has to be the worst idea ever. There are plenty of cruiser pilots who fit frig weapons for better performance (due to tracking issues). So why would I want to fit larger weapons on my frig ?
Oh, and crap capacitors ? lmao.
if by cruise missiles you mean a raven then i concur, if by something which only houses 2 or so launchers, then your insane, i tackled an apoc which was drone+torpedo'ing my ass as i held it there, i pasted its shields and by the time my bs backup arrived, he still hadnt broken my tank with drones+torps, and he wasnt going too either, result, him dead, me alive.
Assault frigs are fine as they are and suitably powered/defended.
Yup cruiser weapons idea is utterly moronic, but your assault frig can easily withstand 2-3 torps/cruise quite easily when fitted suitably.
They require no fixes whatsoever.
__________________________________________
Hell is nothing more than an office with fluorecent lights. |
Xtro 2
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 11:35:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Toran Mehtar
The only thing wrong with assault frigs is that they get wtfpwned by cruise missiles, but that could be said for a lot of ships at the moment (i.e. any cruiser).
Hopefully one day CCP will find a way of making large missiles less effective against smaller ships without messing things up. I'd settle for the retribution getting a launcher hardpoint to keep me going, just to bring it in line with it equivalents from other races (enyo, harpy and wolf).
As for improving them, the ability to fit cruiser weapons has to be the worst idea ever. There are plenty of cruiser pilots who fit frig weapons for better performance (due to tracking issues). So why would I want to fit larger weapons on my frig ?
Oh, and crap capacitors ? lmao.
if by cruise missiles you mean a raven then i concur, if by something which only houses 2 or so launchers, then your insane, i tackled an apoc which was drone+torpedo'ing my ass as i held it there, i pasted its shields and by the time my bs backup arrived, he still hadnt broken my tank with drones+torps, and he wasnt going too either, result, him dead, me alive.
Assault frigs are fine as they are and suitably powered/defended.
Yup cruiser weapons idea is utterly moronic, but your assault frig can easily withstand 2-3 torps/cruise quite easily when fitted suitably.
They require no fixes whatsoever.
__________________________________________
Hell is nothing more than an office with fluorecent lights. |
Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 11:36:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand
Plus put the fact that Harpy is SHIELD tanked and that is EMP resistance is 0%... so u have to put in some shield hardener to get this back...
I feel it no fair ... im cant stand a resistance on my armor higher than on my shield if i need to shield tank... i cant stand an emp hardener 50% or 2 coz my cap gonna blow up easily.
Assault-ships are build against the natural opponent the GM's have supplied you with, and in your ship you should be flying against Gallente. They use alost exclusively hybrids which if I remember correctly do heat/kinetic-damage to which your ship is tanked against.
Just pointing out the obvious.
|
Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 11:36:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand
Plus put the fact that Harpy is SHIELD tanked and that is EMP resistance is 0%... so u have to put in some shield hardener to get this back...
I feel it no fair ... im cant stand a resistance on my armor higher than on my shield if i need to shield tank... i cant stand an emp hardener 50% or 2 coz my cap gonna blow up easily.
Assault-ships are build against the natural opponent the GM's have supplied you with, and in your ship you should be flying against Gallente. They use alost exclusively hybrids which if I remember correctly do heat/kinetic-damage to which your ship is tanked against.
Just pointing out the obvious.
|
Toran Mehtar
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 11:42:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Xtro 2
if by cruise missiles you mean a raven then i concur
Yeah, I pretty much mean the raven.
Originally by: Xtro 2
They require no fixes whatsoever.
I agree, my point is that the assault frig vs cruise missile 'issue' lies with the missiles, not the ships. Cruisers are just as vulnerable, and as such of limited use in PvP. The example you gave is an apoc fitting cruise missiles/torps to cope against frigs. People shouldn't be fitting battleship class weapons for that purpose, but that's another issue, and not for this thread.
|
Toran Mehtar
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 11:42:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Xtro 2
if by cruise missiles you mean a raven then i concur
Yeah, I pretty much mean the raven.
Originally by: Xtro 2
They require no fixes whatsoever.
I agree, my point is that the assault frig vs cruise missile 'issue' lies with the missiles, not the ships. Cruisers are just as vulnerable, and as such of limited use in PvP. The example you gave is an apoc fitting cruise missiles/torps to cope against frigs. People shouldn't be fitting battleship class weapons for that purpose, but that's another issue, and not for this thread.
|
Randay
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 11:46:00 -
[79]
harpy for teh win
|
Randay
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 11:46:00 -
[80]
harpy for teh win
|
Xtro 2
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 11:49:00 -
[81]
Missile changes are a pain, lost a crusader eventually when ship decides to alter its orbit direction after flying close to an object that would slow me down, resulting in 6 cruise missiles up the arse, i still managed to orbit a raven at 6.9k going at around 3100ms, with the missiles not managing to strike, but when that 1 mishap occurs that makes u slow even a little, you have zero time to react, u just explode.
Still it was a good laugh attcking a raven in a few ceptors even if my crusader and 1 of my corp mates crow's got pummeled, oh and 1 of our stiletto's barely escaped.
Fear those missiles.
__________________________________________
Hell is nothing more than an office with fluorecent lights. |
Xtro 2
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 11:49:00 -
[82]
Missile changes are a pain, lost a crusader eventually when ship decides to alter its orbit direction after flying close to an object that would slow me down, resulting in 6 cruise missiles up the arse, i still managed to orbit a raven at 6.9k going at around 3100ms, with the missiles not managing to strike, but when that 1 mishap occurs that makes u slow even a little, you have zero time to react, u just explode.
Still it was a good laugh attcking a raven in a few ceptors even if my crusader and 1 of my corp mates crow's got pummeled, oh and 1 of our stiletto's barely escaped.
Fear those missiles.
__________________________________________
Hell is nothing more than an office with fluorecent lights. |
Nadec Ascand
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 12:15:00 -
[83]
sorry but when i see jaguar with 75% em 60 exp 40 kine 60% therm i fell like a .... doh why my harpy is 0% emp...
Any ship gonna bypass my shield and caldari are made for shield... im actually looking for a way to armor tank my harpy thats insane and should not be...
Yeah im caldari... and yeah im flying a megatron...
Why coz maybe now only caldary are tough enough to fly those and evryone use caldari ship...
|
Nadec Ascand
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 12:15:00 -
[84]
sorry but when i see jaguar with 75% em 60 exp 40 kine 60% therm i fell like a .... doh why my harpy is 0% emp...
Any ship gonna bypass my shield and caldari are made for shield... im actually looking for a way to armor tank my harpy thats insane and should not be...
Yeah im caldari... and yeah im flying a megatron...
Why coz maybe now only caldary are tough enough to fly those and evryone use caldari ship...
|
Xtro 2
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 12:27:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand
sorry but when i see jaguar with 75% em 60 exp 40 kine 60% therm i fell like a .... doh why my harpy is 0% emp...
Any ship gonna bypass my shield and caldari are made for shield... im actually looking for a way to armor tank my harpy thats insane and should not be...
CCP arent very good at balancing the grey inbetween area of pure Shield/Amour tanks like amarr/caldari, leaving gallente/minmatar in the dry, but like this little gem, you see something far more confusing a desired shield tanker given a massive kick in the teeth.
Best ships allround for tank/combet/damage/everything except jamming will remain the amarr.
Its the unfortunate reason im caldari, played for ages with raven, occasionally still do when mentally insane, but typically these days fly amarr stuff as their advantages outweigh everything else out there, and i mean everything, and when i say by far, i mean that as well.
They tank easily and best, with higher cap than opponents, best weapon types (lasers, comically hit regular and for ridiculous damage, and hit at typically any range with radio crystals when their not supposd too) they have the best cap recharge, the only thing they lack in is drone space, which makes no great difference at all.
Amarr beats all at everything basically, esp when you get to the stage where a lot of your skills hit level5 in everything that counts.
Why bother with the rest. Really?
__________________________________________
Hell is nothing more than an office with fluorecent lights. |
Xtro 2
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 12:27:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand
sorry but when i see jaguar with 75% em 60 exp 40 kine 60% therm i fell like a .... doh why my harpy is 0% emp...
Any ship gonna bypass my shield and caldari are made for shield... im actually looking for a way to armor tank my harpy thats insane and should not be...
CCP arent very good at balancing the grey inbetween area of pure Shield/Amour tanks like amarr/caldari, leaving gallente/minmatar in the dry, but like this little gem, you see something far more confusing a desired shield tanker given a massive kick in the teeth.
Best ships allround for tank/combet/damage/everything except jamming will remain the amarr.
Its the unfortunate reason im caldari, played for ages with raven, occasionally still do when mentally insane, but typically these days fly amarr stuff as their advantages outweigh everything else out there, and i mean everything, and when i say by far, i mean that as well.
They tank easily and best, with higher cap than opponents, best weapon types (lasers, comically hit regular and for ridiculous damage, and hit at typically any range with radio crystals when their not supposd too) they have the best cap recharge, the only thing they lack in is drone space, which makes no great difference at all.
Amarr beats all at everything basically, esp when you get to the stage where a lot of your skills hit level5 in everything that counts.
Why bother with the rest. Really?
__________________________________________
Hell is nothing more than an office with fluorecent lights. |
Jaredh Elkin
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 12:34:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand
sorry but when i see jaguar with 75% em 60 exp 40 kine 60% therm i fell like a .... doh why my harpy is 0% emp...
Well, supposedly the Harpy is to be used against Gallanteans,
who use mostly hybrid guns. This means thermal and kinetic
damage, and Harpy has the resistance bonuses for them.
The Minmatar ones get the thermal and EM bonuses, which
helps their shields quite a bit. At first I shieldtanked
my Wolf, though the slot combination is much better for an
armor tank.
The real horror resistances are on the Amarr boats' armor, though, with the exception of thermal.
I do like the assault frigs the way they are now. Being the
carebear I am, I have only used them as mission runners, but
they are very good at that - both the Minmatar ships, that is,
I have never used the others. Looking at the damage and twiddling with the setups somewhat, I think they can also
be good ships in PvP.
--
Jaredh Elkin, Production Manager, Gradient
|
Jaredh Elkin
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 12:34:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand
sorry but when i see jaguar with 75% em 60 exp 40 kine 60% therm i fell like a .... doh why my harpy is 0% emp...
Well, supposedly the Harpy is to be used against Gallanteans,
who use mostly hybrid guns. This means thermal and kinetic
damage, and Harpy has the resistance bonuses for them.
The Minmatar ones get the thermal and EM bonuses, which
helps their shields quite a bit. At first I shieldtanked
my Wolf, though the slot combination is much better for an
armor tank.
The real horror resistances are on the Amarr boats' armor, though, with the exception of thermal.
I do like the assault frigs the way they are now. Being the
carebear I am, I have only used them as mission runners, but
they are very good at that - both the Minmatar ships, that is,
I have never used the others. Looking at the damage and twiddling with the setups somewhat, I think they can also
be good ships in PvP.
--
Jaredh Elkin, Production Manager, Gradient
|
MaiLina KaTar
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 13:17:00 -
[89]
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 30/12/2004 13:21:00
I have a problem with ships using modules not designed for their class. It creates too much friction in interclass ship balance IMO.
Mai's Idealog |
MaiLina KaTar
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 13:17:00 -
[90]
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 30/12/2004 13:21:00
I have a problem with ships using modules not designed for their class. It creates too much friction in interclass ship balance IMO.
Mai's Idealog |
Nadec Ascand
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 13:45:00 -
[91]
now little calcul... 235 % resistance on shield for jaguar 210 for harpy...
where are thoose 25% gone?
Gimme back my 25% and put it on em so i only need 1 hardener and my cap will now be able to last :)
Yeah im caldari... and yeah im flying a megatron...
Why coz maybe now only caldary are tough enough to fly those and evryone use caldari ship...
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Nadec Ascand
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 13:45:00 -
[92]
now little calcul... 235 % resistance on shield for jaguar 210 for harpy...
where are thoose 25% gone?
Gimme back my 25% and put it on em so i only need 1 hardener and my cap will now be able to last :)
Yeah im caldari... and yeah im flying a megatron...
Why coz maybe now only caldary are tough enough to fly those and evryone use caldari ship...
|
Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 21:26:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand
now little calcul... 235 % resistance on shield for jaguar 210 for harpy...
where are thoose 25% gone?
Gimme back my 25% and put it on em so i only need 1 hardener and my cap will now be able to last :)
Really ?
Let's put armour next to it then, Caldari: 218.75 total, Minmatar 195 total...
Dev's.... put the missing 23.75% resists for the Wolf on Kinetic so it can also fly with only one hardener. 
Besides... it is not as if you own those resists or actually need EM-shield-resists at 75%. If you wanted those you should have taken your 100 Year-War against the Amarrians and not against the Gallenteans.
But please, don't let me keep you from begging the designers of EVE to unbalance the game even further just to please you.
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Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 21:26:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand
now little calcul... 235 % resistance on shield for jaguar 210 for harpy...
where are thoose 25% gone?
Gimme back my 25% and put it on em so i only need 1 hardener and my cap will now be able to last :)
Really ?
Let's put armour next to it then, Caldari: 218.75 total, Minmatar 195 total...
Dev's.... put the missing 23.75% resists for the Wolf on Kinetic so it can also fly with only one hardener.
Besides... it is not as if you own those resists or actually need EM-shield-resists at 75%. If you wanted those you should have taken your 100 Year-War against the Amarrians and not against the Gallenteans.
But please, don't let me keep you from begging the designers of EVE to unbalance the game even further just to please you.
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JoeSomebody
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Posted - 2004.12.30 21:49:00 -
[95]
Point about blasters is dumb - lasers are by far most used weapon type in this game, and they do massive EM and thermal damage, which is basicaly instant wtfpwnage against Caldari, due to shields having least resistanses to those dmg types (0 and 20%).
Now why da hell _assault_ ship would have 0 defence against already most devastating damage type? Isnt that kinda defeats the whole "assault" idea? What kind of assault ship is that, if i cant even kill 3 dumb 35k bloodrider cruisers in it? Even if i stack two passive EM hardeners, I still have only 46% resistance... Screw pvp - thats not acceptable even for missions 
Even aside from assault frigs - idea that i HAVE TO run at least two active hardeners, just to keep some cheap skillless amarr rats from insanely outdamaging me is simply frustrating.
I actually just had a great idea (or i think it is ). We need a new engineering skill, that would give 5% EM resistance to shileds 
____
When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..." |
JoeSomebody
|
Posted - 2004.12.30 21:49:00 -
[96]
Point about blasters is dumb - lasers are by far most used weapon type in this game, and they do massive EM and thermal damage, which is basicaly instant wtfpwnage against Caldari, due to shields having least resistanses to those dmg types (0 and 20%).
Now why da hell _assault_ ship would have 0 defence against already most devastating damage type? Isnt that kinda defeats the whole "assault" idea? What kind of assault ship is that, if i cant even kill 3 dumb 35k bloodrider cruisers in it? Even if i stack two passive EM hardeners, I still have only 46% resistance... Screw pvp - thats not acceptable even for missions
Even aside from assault frigs - idea that i HAVE TO run at least two active hardeners, just to keep some cheap skillless amarr rats from insanely outdamaging me is simply frustrating.
I actually just had a great idea (or i think it is ). We need a new engineering skill, that would give 5% EM resistance to shileds
____
When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..." |
Nadec Ascand
|
Posted - 2004.12.31 00:49:00 -
[97]
As joe said i dont care about the old war against gallente...
Now war is evrywhere minmattar are no more slaves nor ammar slavers...
This last 2 years made some change in history lines and greatest threat is bloodraiders wich actually uses em ...
So why the hell ishukone gonna build a ship unable to overide thoose pirates menace.
I dont care my armor is greater than minmattar one... i dont care get 0% resistance in both armor resistance coz im caldari proud of technologie and shield...
BTW if something bypass my shield im dead as evry caldari.
This is a Tech 2 ship an advanced ship build for war... and unable to fire to be able to get away alive. put 3 heavy em missile my shield is over then go cut in my armor butter...
Yeah im caldari... and yeah im flying a megatron...
Why coz maybe now only caldary are tough enough to fly those and evryone use caldari ship...
|
Nadec Ascand
|
Posted - 2004.12.31 00:49:00 -
[98]
As joe said i dont care about the old war against gallente...
Now war is evrywhere minmattar are no more slaves nor ammar slavers...
This last 2 years made some change in history lines and greatest threat is bloodraiders wich actually uses em ...
So why the hell ishukone gonna build a ship unable to overide thoose pirates menace.
I dont care my armor is greater than minmattar one... i dont care get 0% resistance in both armor resistance coz im caldari proud of technologie and shield...
BTW if something bypass my shield im dead as evry caldari.
This is a Tech 2 ship an advanced ship build for war... and unable to fire to be able to get away alive. put 3 heavy em missile my shield is over then go cut in my armor butter...
Yeah im caldari... and yeah im flying a megatron...
Why coz maybe now only caldary are tough enough to fly those and evryone use caldari ship...
|
JoeSomebody
|
Posted - 2004.12.31 03:21:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand
put 3 heavy em missile my shield is over then go cut in my armor butter...
i'd say more - armor for Caldari is just a buffer zone to be able to get away if shield tank was broken. Shield <20% = run like hell.
It would make little difference if armor resistances on Caldari ships were all 0%. Its just a fancy hull extention... it even has much less HP than hull...
Now Harpy got about twice less armor HP than shield. Tank it? Thats just laughable....
____
When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..." |
JoeSomebody
|
Posted - 2004.12.31 03:21:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand
put 3 heavy em missile my shield is over then go cut in my armor butter...
i'd say more - armor for Caldari is just a buffer zone to be able to get away if shield tank was broken. Shield <20% = run like hell.
It would make little difference if armor resistances on Caldari ships were all 0%. Its just a fancy hull extention... it even has much less HP than hull...
Now Harpy got about twice less armor HP than shield. Tank it? Thats just laughable....
____
When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..." |
Slithereen
|
Posted - 2004.12.31 09:32:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Meridius
Oversized turrets looks cool, anyone who says otherwise should be shot in the face.
The Khanid ship with medium turrets got me so wet about assault frigates way back when.
What a shame.
What a shame that these have also been removed from the missions. Replaced by a blue Khanid Augoror, which does look cool on its own right.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
|
Slithereen
|
Posted - 2004.12.31 09:32:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Meridius
Oversized turrets looks cool, anyone who says otherwise should be shot in the face.
The Khanid ship with medium turrets got me so wet about assault frigates way back when.
What a shame.
What a shame that these have also been removed from the missions. Replaced by a blue Khanid Augoror, which does look cool on its own right.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
|
Slithereen
|
Posted - 2004.12.31 09:49:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand
As joe said i dont care about the old war against gallente...
Now war is evrywhere minmattar are no more slaves nor ammar slavers...
This last 2 years made some change in history lines and greatest threat is bloodraiders wich actually uses em ...
So why the hell ishukone gonna build a ship unable to overide thoose pirates menace.
I dont care my armor is greater than minmattar one... i dont care get 0% resistance in both armor resistance coz im caldari proud of technologie and shield...
BTW if something bypass my shield im dead as evry caldari.
This is a Tech 2 ship an advanced ship build for war... and unable to fire to be able to get away alive. put 3 heavy em missile my shield is over then go cut in my armor butter...
My guess is that the wars really didn't end, and the empires still have some suspicions on each other.
Having said that, I kind of agree that the role playing setup on the armor damages have little relevance.
For example, the Amarr assaults are hardened especially against Minmatar explosive damage, yet they consistantly fight laser (EM/Thermal damage) based opponents with the Sansha and the Bloods.
The missions are also supposed to fit some backstory, but now you fight a lot of Mordu, Guristas and Serpentis as well.
But like everything in this game, something is never supposed to best on everything, adaptable to everything.
The game is moving away from a generalist view on ships, and towards specialization. The specialization in assault damages is another dimension of expression of this concept.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
|
Slithereen
|
Posted - 2004.12.31 09:49:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand
As joe said i dont care about the old war against gallente...
Now war is evrywhere minmattar are no more slaves nor ammar slavers...
This last 2 years made some change in history lines and greatest threat is bloodraiders wich actually uses em ...
So why the hell ishukone gonna build a ship unable to overide thoose pirates menace.
I dont care my armor is greater than minmattar one... i dont care get 0% resistance in both armor resistance coz im caldari proud of technologie and shield...
BTW if something bypass my shield im dead as evry caldari.
This is a Tech 2 ship an advanced ship build for war... and unable to fire to be able to get away alive. put 3 heavy em missile my shield is over then go cut in my armor butter...
My guess is that the wars really didn't end, and the empires still have some suspicions on each other.
Having said that, I kind of agree that the role playing setup on the armor damages have little relevance.
For example, the Amarr assaults are hardened especially against Minmatar explosive damage, yet they consistantly fight laser (EM/Thermal damage) based opponents with the Sansha and the Bloods.
The missions are also supposed to fit some backstory, but now you fight a lot of Mordu, Guristas and Serpentis as well.
But like everything in this game, something is never supposed to best on everything, adaptable to everything.
The game is moving away from a generalist view on ships, and towards specialization. The specialization in assault damages is another dimension of expression of this concept.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
|
Novarei
|
Posted - 2004.12.31 10:16:00 -
[105]
The problem that most people have is the expense of these frigs, they're not worth the money they cost. But theres nothing that ccp can do about the prices, only those selling the ships.
+--------------------------------------------+
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Novarei
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Posted - 2004.12.31 10:16:00 -
[106]
The problem that most people have is the expense of these frigs, they're not worth the money they cost. But theres nothing that ccp can do about the prices, only those selling the ships.
+--------------------------------------------+
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fairimear
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Posted - 2004.12.31 10:53:00 -
[107]
AF's are PVP ships.
I would never dream of fitting 1 to npc theres no point.
they come in 2 versions.
the small gang AF's:
Enyo.
retribution.
harpy.
Wolf
and the solo pvp hunter/raiders.
Ishkur.
hawk.
jaguar.
vengeance.
each fits the role just fine (all min are a little under powered to the other races atm).
Don't expect them to hold up in any large battles.
the class assault ship and escort ship are both rong these are more patrol ships.
so really its not a imbalance just a miss-naming.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world Domination.
|
fairimear
|
Posted - 2004.12.31 10:53:00 -
[108]
AF's are PVP ships.
I would never dream of fitting 1 to npc theres no point.
they come in 2 versions.
the small gang AF's:
Enyo.
retribution.
harpy.
Wolf
and the solo pvp hunter/raiders.
Ishkur.
hawk.
jaguar.
vengeance.
each fits the role just fine (all min are a little under powered to the other races atm).
Don't expect them to hold up in any large battles.
the class assault ship and escort ship are both rong these are more patrol ships.
so really its not a imbalance just a miss-naming.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world Domination.
|
Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa
|
Posted - 2004.12.31 11:05:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand
As joe said i dont care about the old war against gallente...
Now war is evrywhere minmattar are no more slaves nor ammar slavers...
This last 2 years made some change in history lines and greatest threat is bloodraiders wich actually uses em ...
So why the hell ishukone gonna build a ship unable to overide thoose pirates menace.
I dont care my armor is greater than minmattar one... i dont care get 0% resistance in both armor resistance coz im caldari proud of technologie and shield...
BTW if something bypass my shield im dead as evry caldari.
This is a Tech 2 ship an advanced ship build for war... and unable to fire to be able to get away alive. put 3 heavy em missile my shield is over then go cut in my armor butter...
I don't care you want you're little boat to be the cream of the crop, as many have said before.... ADAPT.
And as the Stones said: You can't always get what you want...
|
Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa
|
Posted - 2004.12.31 11:05:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Nadec Ascand
As joe said i dont care about the old war against gallente...
Now war is evrywhere minmattar are no more slaves nor ammar slavers...
This last 2 years made some change in history lines and greatest threat is bloodraiders wich actually uses em ...
So why the hell ishukone gonna build a ship unable to overide thoose pirates menace.
I dont care my armor is greater than minmattar one... i dont care get 0% resistance in both armor resistance coz im caldari proud of technologie and shield...
BTW if something bypass my shield im dead as evry caldari.
This is a Tech 2 ship an advanced ship build for war... and unable to fire to be able to get away alive. put 3 heavy em missile my shield is over then go cut in my armor butter...
I don't care you want you're little boat to be the cream of the crop, as many have said before.... ADAPT.
And as the Stones said: You can't always get what you want...
|
Magorath
|
Posted - 2004.12.31 11:12:00 -
[111]
Originally by: fairimear
AF's are PVP ships.
I would never dream of fitting 1 to npc theres no point.
they come in 2 versions.
the small gang AF's:
Enyo.
retribution.
harpy.
Wolf
and the solo pvp hunter/raiders.
Ishkur.
hawk.
jaguar.
vengeance.
each fits the role just fine (all min are a little under powered to the other races atm).
Don't expect them to hold up in any large battles.
the class assault ship and escort ship are both rong these are more patrol ships.
so really its not a imbalance just a miss-naming.
I don't see the minmatar assault frigs underpowered. i took on a corp mates Retribution and we both got down into structure at the same time.
|
Magorath
|
Posted - 2004.12.31 11:12:00 -
[112]
Originally by: fairimear
AF's are PVP ships.
I would never dream of fitting 1 to npc theres no point.
they come in 2 versions.
the small gang AF's:
Enyo.
retribution.
harpy.
Wolf
and the solo pvp hunter/raiders.
Ishkur.
hawk.
jaguar.
vengeance.
each fits the role just fine (all min are a little under powered to the other races atm).
Don't expect them to hold up in any large battles.
the class assault ship and escort ship are both rong these are more patrol ships.
so really its not a imbalance just a miss-naming.
I don't see the minmatar assault frigs underpowered. i took on a corp mates Retribution and we both got down into structure at the same time.
|
Intensity Green
|
Posted - 2004.12.31 11:20:00 -
[113]
I just love how every ship balancing thread brings out stories about how uber everyone is. Totally disregarding skill point distribution, circumstances etc. Every dog has it's day but can we not have a serious ship balancing discussion without the irrelevant fairytales?
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Intensity Green
|
Posted - 2004.12.31 11:20:00 -
[114]
I just love how every ship balancing thread brings out stories about how uber everyone is. Totally disregarding skill point distribution, circumstances etc. Every dog has it's day but can we not have a serious ship balancing discussion without the irrelevant fairytales?
|
JoeSomebody
|
Posted - 2004.12.31 15:38:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Slithereen
My guess is that the wars really didn't end, and the empires still have some suspicions on each other.
Having said that, I kind of agree that the role playing setup on the armor damages have little relevance.
For example, the Amarr assaults are hardened especially against Minmatar explosive damage, yet they consistantly fight laser (EM/Thermal damage) based opponents with the Sansha and the Bloods.
The missions are also supposed to fit some backstory, but now you fight a lot of Mordu, Guristas and Serpentis as well.
But like everything in this game, something is never supposed to best on everything, adaptable to everything.
The game is moving away from a generalist view on ships, and towards specialization. The specialization in assault damages is another dimension of expression of this concept.
You talkin about rock-paper-scissors rule.... well that supposed to apply to ship types/configs, but not factions!
____
When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..." |
JoeSomebody
|
Posted - 2004.12.31 15:38:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Slithereen
My guess is that the wars really didn't end, and the empires still have some suspicions on each other.
Having said that, I kind of agree that the role playing setup on the armor damages have little relevance.
For example, the Amarr assaults are hardened especially against Minmatar explosive damage, yet they consistantly fight laser (EM/Thermal damage) based opponents with the Sansha and the Bloods.
The missions are also supposed to fit some backstory, but now you fight a lot of Mordu, Guristas and Serpentis as well.
But like everything in this game, something is never supposed to best on everything, adaptable to everything.
The game is moving away from a generalist view on ships, and towards specialization. The specialization in assault damages is another dimension of expression of this concept.
You talkin about rock-paper-scissors rule.... well that supposed to apply to ship types/configs, but not factions!
____
When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..." |
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