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MyVodka
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Posted - 2010.09.29 09:49:00 -
[31]
I agree Torothanax, dreadnoughts do need a boost of some sort.
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ViolenTUK
Gallente
Demolition Men
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Posted - 2010.09.29 10:05:00 -
[32]
When the changes to Supercarriers were introduced dreads had their tracking nerfed to make them only really effective against poses. The fact of the matter is that dreads were always used for fleet warfare as well as pos pashing. Once dreads were nerfed they became no longer effective against super capitals. I feel that boosting dreads tracking would at least stop them from being ineffectual.
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Luthair StoneDog
Gallente
Wormhole XXXtreme
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Posted - 2010.09.29 12:57:00 -
[33]
 Originally by: ViolenTUK
When the changes to Supercarriers were introduced dreads had their tracking nerfed to make them only really effective against poses. The fact of the matter is that dreads were always used for fleet warfare as well as pos pashing. Once dreads were nerfed they became no longer effective against super capitals. I feel that boosting dreads tracking would at least stop them from being ineffectual.
Agreed, I think dreads need a tracking buff at the very least.
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Asuka Solo
Gallente
Galactic Defence Consortium
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Posted - 2010.09.29 13:27:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Asuka Solo on 29/09/2010 13:35:27
Why not just lobby for new Dread hull variants and follow the Battleship class approach?
Generate one Dread hull with increased tracking to enable hitting smaller or moving ships.
Generate a 2nd with improved tank or perhaps even immunity from Ewar or something to enable it to pull out if needed, or insane damage bonuses (like the 100% damage bonus from Marauders) and more hi slots to actually hurt Super Carriers.
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Camios
Minmatar
Insurgent New Eden Tribe
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Posted - 2010.09.29 18:14:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Camios on 29/09/2010 18:15:47
One of the things I see in the SC Vs Dreads problem is that SC is clearly made to kill capitals.
This point is quite important: with the exception of Titan + old AoE Doomsday, before dominion there was no ship that whose specific aim was to kill lesser ships.
Moreover we can notice that in a "small vs big" fight, the small has always the advantage of speed and agility, while the big has the advantage of DPS and tank.
This is not true when we consider Capitals Vs Supercapitals. Actually, "Capitals Vs Supercapitals" is more similar to "T1 Vs T2" than to "Small Vs Big".
So, the problem "Dreads are useless" is similar to the problem "T1 cruisers and frigates are useless". But of course the problem of dreads being useless is quite more important.
Another related problem I see is that the DPS a Supercarrier can put on a BS is way too much. It's over 1000 dps on a MWD BS, and this is probably why we don't see BSes around anymore (please correct me if I'm wrong).
Possible solutions to these problems
The mobility of dreads must be enhanced to increase their survivability to SC fire. There should be a consistent reduction in siege time, or at least various stages of sieged mode, when you exchange your mobility for DPS and tank.
They should not put out more DPS than now, if you look to them from a certain perspective they look a quite cheap weapon system after all.
More mobility could encourage the use of short range dreads maybe.
SC damage to subcapital should be lowered even more, for example increasing the explosion radius of compact citadels and obviously increasing the Signature radius of capitals and supercapitals. Pos modules and sov structures should remain like they are now, in order for dreads to be still effective (and better than SCs) in pos bashing.
This is important to make the BS fleet tactic viable again (more variety = better game).
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Malak Starfire
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Posted - 2010.09.29 19:10:00 -
[36]
I'm new to cap warfare, but wouldn't 16-20 dreads take out a supercarrier? Sure a few dreads would die but the isk vs isk is about the same.
I would enjoy a shorter siege cycle time though.
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Demjon
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Posted - 2010.09.29 20:38:00 -
[37]
In order to fix the cap ship problem all ship designs will need to be reworked. The whole idea of rock paper scissors in game this complex is a sad joke in itself. I wonÆt argue the fact that a dread turret or missile would have a problem tracking or even hitting a small fast ship. I think this is correct and as it should be. What I have a problem with is that fact that each ship type is forced to use only turret sizes that are equal to it.
Frig = small turret
Cruiser = Medium turret
Battle ship = Large turret
Dread = X-Large turret
This means that as the ships get larger they have more and more difficulty hitting smaller class ships. By doing this medium turrets and cruisers become the favored ships and the t2 and t3 versions of these cruisers are very fast and carry a lot of firepower. A BS has no chance against these ships 1v1 much less in numbers because their guns can not track them. A BS just takes longer to die (not much longer). If a BS canÆt defend against these attackers, how would a dread fair against them? Carrier fighters are no long effective against them and they often times can outrun drones.
LetÆs face it no navy would ever build a ship that couldnÆt deal with a ship in a lower class. The speed of cruisers and frigs allow them to escape a larger more powerful vessel not speed tank it indefinitely or provide invulnerability because drones and missiles and turrets canÆt hit them. The time it takes to target a smaller vessel provides additions time to retreat as well. This speed invulnerability can be applied to BSÆs as well when they face dreads or carriers. How do we fix this issue? Nerf bat again really?
I propose that we use all 12 of the function keys for a change. Push the awesome key for once. For ships that are BS and up they should be allowed to fit medium turrets in addition to their primary armament in order to combat smaller ships. Give a bonus to small and medium turrets against fighters and fighter bombers as well. If you launch an air strike against any ships your going to loose some of those fighter/bombers in the process. The carriers and SC still have tons of drones, and spares to use in the fight and even if they run out the can always RR. On BS ships and up you can give a 2X bonus to medium turret damage so the turret damage is comparable to a cruiser and if they get a lucky shot in with the big guns, well all is fair in love and war. Specifically for dreads they need to fit both long range and short range medium turrets especially because the can not move in siege mode (moving battle station). You can even put medium turrets on the carriers for anti fighter/bomber actions but they might be overpowered (unless the fighter/bombers are all shot down). The t2 and t3 cruisers and frigates can always run away before they get locked.
99% of the time 1v1, BS> then cruiser. Dread > BS/Cruiser, Carrier > All, unless all the fighter/bomber have been shot down, or you get caught in the open. ThatÆs my two cents on the subject of fleet fights.
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Arklan1
Dunedain Rangers
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Posted - 2010.09.29 21:02:00 -
[38]
adding medium guns isn't the solution - it would eliminate the need to bring support fleets of smaller vessels.
now, as the the rest of this thread. fascinating. i have zero experience with cap fleets, or really fleet fights in general, but it's very interesting reading. BS's aren't used much in pvp fleet fights, you say? that just screams there's an imbalance somewhere. i mean, i understand it. i love my hurricane. but and entire size category of vessel not seeing use? to make no mention of dreads...
it's fascinating to me that there is this whole level of eve (yet another one!) that i know nil about.
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Hentes Zsemle
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Posted - 2010.09.29 21:30:00 -
[39]
Dreads could have a way higher dps and better tracking so they can fight supercaps effectively. The solution against them being more effective against smaller targets becouse of this could be to raise the sig radius on capital guns.
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Kashon Rea
King's Empire
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Posted - 2010.09.30 06:26:00 -
[40]
i suppose the question has to be, Yes the dread was originally designed as a POS killer.
But is that really feasible in the current SC environment.
hell i have not undocked my moros for a long time there is no point, i go to kill a POS and a SC jumps in and kills me.
I think we should look at altering the dread into a sub-system based ship, not a T3 ship but a cap with 2 sub-systems so that tailoring can be done.
Death is not the answer only a means to an end. |
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GizzyBoy
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Posted - 2010.09.30 13:20:00 -
[41]
Moms used to be pretty naf, Now they got some loving and they have the eeepeen,
and this is fine. At some point they will get the nerf again. but for now, they still Can't dock, still require a ready fleet to jump in and support them should things go south, Still cost many more billions than dreads.
Should a dread be able to smoke a mom on its own? uhmmm no... the mom was reconfigured to give some balance vrs Titans.
If they hadn't given moms some loving, we would all be cursing the excessively large titan gangs.
So there it is, You can moan about having Super carriers, Or you can moan about To many titans, Or you can just come back to high sec for some Carebare Love *Internet Space Ship Man Hugs*
are moms getting killed? yep 4 + in September
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7695305
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Kai Yuen
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Posted - 2010.09.30 14:34:00 -
[42]
^ so your solution is just to ignore the problem until CCP nerfs moms into the ground? How... original. CCP is much more likely to nerf them into complete suckage than they are into balance if something isn't done to balance them out using other ships. Dreads are the place to look.
Dreads are currently the most boring capital ship to fly. They're good for only one thing, banging on towers. They have very little flexibility in their role. They aren't even that great at killing other caps except triage carriers and dreads. The reason for this? Tracking. In siege, dreads have no tracking at all. I'm sorry, but capital ships MOVE. Even moms and titans move. This negates a large portion of dread DPS against anything with a player in it. Unnerf their tracking and buff their HP and they might be able to compete.
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Mr Peanut420
The Makhai
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Posted - 2010.09.30 19:04:00 -
[43]
Don't nerf moms! Don't do anything fancy, just remove the siege timer (make like a cloaking device or mining lazer). Siege on: you're gunz do damage, you can't to move (basically to stop dreads from aligning and quickly warping out). Siege off, you can move again. Siege will use stront like a gun uses ammo, slowly counting down.
And poof cap battles are fun again.
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Orb Lati
Minmatar
ANZAC ALLIANCE
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.10.01 00:32:00 -
[44]
Going to throw a curve ball here, which I have mentioned in another thread similar to this.
Instead of trying to buff dreads against Super carrier damage, consider a solution of using another ship (Assault Frigs?) as an anti fighter/bomber screening platform.
If you were able to boost an assault frigate with bonuses to damage and webs to slow a fighter/bomber down to be killed. Then potentially a few squads of these might we worth considering to whittle down the effective dps output of a super carrier.
This will still keep dreads vulnerable initially but over the coarse of a battle a super carrier wing might find itself toothless against the remainder.
This of coarse wont counter Titans, but Im not sure yet if they need any.
"We worship Strength because it is through strength that all other values are made possible" |
GoodNDead
Caldari
Hardcore Industries
Hardcore.
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Posted - 2010.10.01 05:02:00 -
[45]
Edited by: GoodNDead on 01/10/2010 05:04:53
It might be easier and simpler fix to dial back the fighter bomber DPS a bit still making them cap killers but at a slightly slower pace so a hand full of MoMs can't hot drop and annihilate a average sized dread fleet and simply walk away in the time it takes to take a good long BM.
Its a far better option then to give the dreads a major role change or totally nerfing moms by ramping up dreads effective DPS making MoMs kerplode like a caracal at a low sec gate camp to the average sized dread fleet.
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FlameGlow
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2010.10.01 07:42:00 -
[46]
Edited by: FlameGlow on 01/10/2010 07:44:01
Originally by: Mr Peanut420
Don't nerf moms! Don't do anything fancy, just remove the siege timer (make like a cloaking device or mining lazer). Siege on: you're gunz do damage, you can't to move (basically to stop dreads from aligning and quickly warping out). Siege off, you can move again. Siege will use stront like a gun uses ammo, slowly counting down.
And poof cap battles are fun again.
you're forgetting the other parts of siege effects
1) not being able to receive remote assistance - drop siege any time you're not tanking the incoming damage and get reps from carriers
2) ewar immunity - siege on/off and you're no longer tackled
I'm personally in favor of double/triple smartbomb range boost in siege and utility slot on dreads
Originally by: CCP Manifest
Imploding servers are not a part of our business model.
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Mr Peanut420
The Makhai
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Posted - 2010.10.02 03:48:00 -
[47]
Originally by: FlameGlow
Edited by: FlameGlow on 01/10/2010 07:44:01
Originally by: Mr Peanut420
Don't nerf moms! Don't do anything fancy, just remove the siege timer (make like a cloaking device or mining lazer). Siege on: you're gunz do damage, you can't to move (basically to stop dreads from aligning and quickly warping out). Siege off, you can move again. Siege will use stront like a gun uses ammo, slowly counting down.
And poof cap battles are fun again.
you're forgetting the other parts of siege effects
1) not being able to receive remote assistance - drop siege any time you're not tanking the incoming damage and get reps from carriers
2) ewar immunity - siege on/off and you're no longer tackled
I'm personally in favor of double/triple smartbomb range boost in siege and utility slot on dreads
1) I don't think thats a problem
2) remove ewar immunity
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Tachash
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Posted - 2010.10.03 13:57:00 -
[48]
One easy way to bring dreads back into contention again would be to give them a new bonus to assist in the tackling of super caps. Remove the infinite warp strength of super cap, give them something in the region of a warp strength of 200 for SC and 300 for Titans. Then either seed T1 Capital scramblers and disruptors or make the siege mod have an effect on scramblers and disruptors, in the region of +150% to range and 500% to tackling strength. This still means even with faction 3pt scrams youd need 14 sieged Dreads to tackle an SC and I think that's fair.
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Kashon Rea
King's Empire
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Posted - 2010.10.06 04:14:00 -
[49]
It is interesting that most of these posts... mine included are wining about moms
Lets stop wining and think of it this way... the dread is an over sized battleship.
So why not let it have the same flexibility.
Yes it was originally designed to kill pos.. and to be honest it can still do that with the right support.
What i would like to see is the dread be allowed to be used for other purposes.
Personally i would allow capital ships to fit a couple of subsystems, there giving flexibility and usefulness back to the lowly dread.
Death is not the answer only a means to an end. |
Magnum Negotia
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Posted - 2010.10.25 14:01:00 -
[50]
Agreed, thanks for the information.
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About Mesale
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Posted - 2010.10.25 14:48:00 -
[51]
Edited by: About Mesale on 25/10/2010 14:49:26
Dreads are not broken.
The ships that made Dreads utterly and completely obsolete are both supercaps, since both are superior dreads in every single way possible.
If you simply remove supercaps from the equation, you see very quickly that (pre-trackingnerf) dreads are the most balanced ship class in eve. Clear role, limited effectiveness outside of said role, clear drawbacks and upsides.
It's just that ccp introduced so many hard counters to dreads that their usefulness was reduced to basically zero. There are too many ships that do a better job, so these should be nerfed, as to not upset balance of dreads vs. subcaps and carriers.
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