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Balance for Dreads

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Impact1983 Missions Mining and Mayhem Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.09.12 18:55:00 - [1] Currently the dreads are locked out of use because of moms and their fighter bombers. But moms are a bit over powered atm with no real counter to them, so why not dreads be the counter? Add two more highslots to dreads that will allow smart bombs to be fited, when the dread is in siege the range of smart bombs would be extended by 25% per level of dreadnought skill. Also make the smart bombs hit fighterbombers harder than other things, so that the smart bombs are not over powered in gate camps and what not. This isn't a perfect fix but it could be used to setup a counter to the current mom fleets and it would give dreads a role again in fleets. Plus you do not have to nerf the current moms if you supply a reasonable counter to them.
mmhrmm	Posted - 2010.09.12 19:15:00 - [2] Originally by: Impact1983 Currently the dreads are locked out of use because of moms and their fighter bombers. But moms are a bit over powered atm with no real counter to them, so why not dreads be the counter? Add two more highslots to dreads that will allow smart bombs to be fited, when the dread is in siege the range of smart bombs would be extended by 25% per level of dreadnought skill. Also make the smart bombs hit fighterbombers harder than other things, so that the smart bombs are not over powered in gate camps and what not. This isn't a perfect fix but it could be used to setup a counter to the current mom fleets and it would give dreads a role again in fleets. Plus you do not have to nerf the current moms if you supply a reasonable counter to them. Dreads have always had 1 role and 1 roles only POS warfare. They are not meant for anything else this is their sole job. +1 AGAINST
Impact1983 Missions Mining and Mayhem Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.09.12 19:23:00 - [3] Originally by: mmhrmm Dreads have always had 1 role and 1 roles only POS warfare. They are not meant for anything else this is their sole job. +1 AGAINST Dreads are not pulled out because of moms and that dreads are locked down for 10 mins. Without a defence against the current sotm then dreads will stay docked and moms will just be nerfed with a bat making them useless unless there is a counter. Using small ships as a counter to the drones would mean 10 people per mom. So you would need 100 man fleet to counter 10 moms, not realistic so what do you propose to counter moms and their fighterbombers? More moms doesn't answer the counter question as it is the same tactic but just throwing more numbers at it isn't really that great of an idea. CCP will need to balance this and hopefully without making moms and fighterbombers useless.
mmhrmm	Posted - 2010.09.12 19:42:00 - [4] Dread fleets should always have their own support? whats the point your trying to make?
Nerdy Deadshot	Posted - 2010.09.12 19:54:00 - [5] -im hijacking this thread- Moms are only so deadly cause worse comes to worse, set drones to aggressive and turn on tanking. And go watch some TV. Fleet lag is the problem... CCP fix fleet lag
Impact1983 Missions Mining and Mayhem Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.09.12 20:06:00 - [6] Originally by: Nerdy Deadshot -im hijacking this thread- Moms are only so deadly cause worse comes to worse, set drones to aggressive and turn on tanking. And go watch some TV. Fleet lag is the problem... CCP fix fleet lag I do not disagree with the fleet lag; but why is it that people are ignoring the elephent in the room? There is currently no counter to moms other than more moms so why not give a counter using a ship that has been docked up as it isn't that useful with the currently game mechanics?
Lord NathanZachary	Posted - 2010.09.12 20:18:00 - [7] Originally by: Impact1983 Originally by: Nerdy Deadshot -im hijacking this thread- Moms are only so deadly cause worse comes to worse, set drones to aggressive and turn on tanking. And go watch some TV. Fleet lag is the problem... CCP fix fleet lag I do not disagree with the fleet lag; but why is it that people are ignoring the elephent in the room? There is currently no counter to moms other than more moms so why not give a counter using a ship that has been docked up as it isn't that useful with the currently game mechanics? if mom's are the elephant in the room, fleet lag is the space whale in the room
Hofbrau Dunkel	Posted - 2010.09.12 20:19:00 - [8] There's no counter to a blob other than a bigger blob. Whats your point?
King Rothgar Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.09.12 21:05:00 - [9] The problem is not SC's, it's dreads. The blob is always a problem but short of some fundamental game changes that isn't going anywhere. The problem with dreads is they are unique in how they are used. Every other ship in the game can shoot without getting stuck in one spot for 10 minutes. If we applied the model dreads used to all ships, then anything but a titan would be a sitting duck. The way to fix dreads is to make them just like every other ship in the game, make them work without the siege module. Carriers work just fine without triage, in fact non-triage carriers outnumber triage carriers by staggering proportions. A carrier that actually uses triage is an exceptionally rare sight. Triage boosts their scan res, tank and RR but those concerns are generally secondary to getting stuck there for 5 minutes and being unable to use drones. Dreads need to follow the same model. They should be highly effective combat ships without dropping into siege mode. That said, the siege mode should offer a significant improvement in some way. It should not be damage output however. Dreads should get their base damage increased to that of what they get with a siege mod active. The siege mod should do something else instead. It should not nerf tracking, it should boost it. Perhaps it should boost range as well. I also think it should increase scan res instead of reducing it. Obviously it should keep it's tanking bonus. The remote effect restrictions should remain as well. The biggest drawback of sieging needs to be simply getting stuck there for 5-10 minutes (a reduction to 5 minute cycle would be wise). It shouldn't nerf the crap out of tracking and targeting ability. And of course, like carriers and triage, it needs to be optional. The ships need to do full damage without sieging. Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig.
Dmoney3788 THE DISC	Posted - 2010.09.13 00:55:00 - [10] I think I see your point, as I'm not a dread pilot atm, but I've plugged in the common dread fits, and the common theme is that you'd be tanking a couple thousand DPS less than what a mom (DARE I SAY) can dish out, and from what I gather, dreads can't be RR'ed while in siege mode, so they're simply sitting ducts. Naturally I can see you shifting the blame to the new mom buff and the siege module, but I don't believe CCP is gonna undo their supercap buffs, so trying to undo that is gonna be pointless. The other side of the coin is the siege module. As the role of the dread is to be a POS basher, the siege module ensures that the dread is ineffective while moving, putting out less DPS than most well fit BS's. So if you allow dreads to do siege mode damage out of siege you effectively alter the role of dreads. Solutions? -Perhaps boost the tank of dreads so that they are able to tank at least 1 mom in siege mode -Remove the no RR restriction when in siege mode -shorten the cycle of the siege module (proportionally reducing the fuel cost per cycle) so you have a better chance of getting out of siege sooner

King Rothgar Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.09.13 01:31:00 - [11] Removing the siege mod limitation on them for damage dealing wouldn't alter their role too much. My revelation can't hit a BS going 90m/s at 50km with pulses and that's with a TCII. If you're worried about them slaughtering BS's, I think you have nothing to worry about. Their tracking is so bad even out of siege that they just can't hit a moving target. Of course they could hit a stationary BS but they can already do that. I have a few funny solo kills with my rev because the target simply parked next to me and didn't move at all. Removing the siege mod limitation on their damage output simply makes them more mobile like carriers. It allows you to hit a POS or another capital and pull out if things get a little too hot. Their should be an advantage to sieging, but it shouldn't be mandatory to dish out the damage, it should give you other benefits instead. Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.09.13 01:56:00 - [12] Originally by: King Rothgar Removing the siege mod limitation on their damage output simply makes them more mobile like carriers. It allows you to hit a POS or another capital and pull out if things get a little too hot. Their should be an advantage to sieging, but it shouldn't be mandatory to dish out the damage, it should give you other benefits instead. And what other advantage you propose for the siege module? Tanking is certainly not gonna be it, as RR will always trump that. So whats left? In fact, you are not supposed to pull out if things get a little too hot, that is exactly the problem with supercarriers in lowsec these days, its just too easy to pull out. So the question is, should supercarriers maybe have the same restriction in order to deploy their bombers? You can still use it as a beefed up carrier, but if you want bombers you have to sit there for 10 minutes.
Lord NathanZachary	Posted - 2010.09.13 02:26:00 - [13] is it just me or is this thread getting some awesome over tones.. we are talking about either making the dread able to PULL OUT or SUPER TANK it all the way through. protection vs pull out... i prefer pull out every time. And if u dont like people pulling out in super cap wars... use idk... jammers
ShahFluffers Gallente Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.09.13 03:10:00 - [14] Originally by: Lord NathanZachary i prefer pull out every time. And if u dont like people pulling out in super cap wars... use idk... jammers There is a punchline in there somewhere... I just have to find it... _______________________ "Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown
King Rothgar Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.09.13 03:10:00 - [15] You're mind is in the gutter mate, watch some **** and get it out of your system. Anyways, forcing SC's to use a siege mod of some sort to use fighter bombers is an option. But TBH I think it's a bad game mechanic on dreads, extending that to SC's may balance it, but it's still a sucky mechanic. You are right about RR trumping any self tank from sieging but the same is true when you look at a carrier in triage. What makes putting a carrier into triage occasionally useful is the other stuff like increased scan resolution, more powerful RR and of course immunity to EW. Making the siege mod boost tracking, gun range, self tank and grant EW immunity makes it a useful feature even if it isn't used that often. Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig.
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.09.13 03:42:00 - [16] i think, reduced cycle times on triage gave carriers an interesting option. all the bonuses from siege without the penalty would be a bit overpowered.
it440 Caldari OZ industries and Technology	Posted - 2010.09.13 08:14:00 - [17] i would think the counter to the super carriers is obviously titans, everyone should be fleeting more titans! CCP supports this message. I think.
LoveKebab Caldari LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.09.13 15:06:00 - [18] Originally by: it440 i would think the counter to the super carriers is obviously titans, everyone should be fleeting more titans! ms does more DPS than titan... xVid4PSP MKV Encoding Tutorial
Impact1983 Missions Mining and Mayhem Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.09.13 15:56:00 - [19] Originally by: LoveKebab Originally by: it440 i would think the counter to the super carriers is obviously titans, everyone should be fleeting more titans! ms does more DPS than titan... And there is currently no counter to a mom, unless you plan on bring 10-15 pilots per mom pilot which would be hard as I can easy get 30 man fleets but how am I going to grab 200 man fleets to counter 20 moms? We need a counter which the current dread is mothballed so why not work in a counter with the dread??? And yes a mom is = to 10 or 15 cruisers maybe bc so we need a realistic counter to them not just lagging out the system with 200 man fleets.
LoveKebab Caldari LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.09.13 16:55:00 - [20] i was told 30 moms generate just about as much objects as 200 bs (bombers + torps) xVid4PSP MKV Encoding Tutorial

Dristra Amarr Idle Haven	Posted - 2010.09.14 03:00:00 - [21] Dreads could really need a buff\change to make them more versatile, even outside the whole mom situation they have but one purpose and that is shooting stationary objects. Carriers are support, logistics, complex runners and assault. I see no reason to train dread over carrier. this is a sign of fail.
SR65 Amarr Core Impulse	Posted - 2010.09.14 05:01:00 - [22] Edited by: SR65 on 14/09/2010 05:05:21 Edited by: SR65 on 14/09/2010 05:03:29 Originally by: mmhrmm Dreads have always had 1 role and 1 roles only POS warfare. They are not meant for anything else this is their sole job. +1 AGAINST Dreads have always been used to kill caps as well as siege POSs. Now it just so happens that supercaps **** other regular caps with ease. I think simply changing the siege cycle to 5 minutes would almost make Dreads usable again. Right now, it's almost always too risky to siege dreads on a capital or a POS because of the fear of being supercap blobbed by the major alliances. Supercaps are the new dreads with the way the game mechanics work atm and they are only going to get more and more common in capital fleets. Basically, with supers being fairly easy to obtain and being wtfpwn, the risk of deploying dreads needs to be reduced and I think that changing the siege cycle to 5 minutes would be the best way to do this. I don't agree with OP, I think the smartbomb idea is just absurd. I also don't think that dreads need to be able to solo supercaps, after all there's a 15-16 billion ISK difference in cost of the two ships, not to mention a lot more training time and a committed character to the ship. I just simply think that dreads need less time of being deadweight. Thoughts on this?
it440 Caldari OZ industries and Technology	Posted - 2010.09.14 08:18:00 - [23] Edited by: it440 on 14/09/2010 08:18:46 Originally by: LoveKebab Originally by: it440 i would think the counter to the super carriers is obviously titans, everyone should be fleeting more titans! ms does more DPS than titan... but what would happen 1v1? i dont know but titans have 3x the tank dont they? CCP supports this message. I think.
LoveKebab Caldari LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.09.14 08:35:00 - [24] Edited by: LoveKebab on 14/09/2010 08:42:29 Originally by: it440 Edited by: it440 on 14/09/2010 08:18:46 Originally by: LoveKebab Originally by: it440 i would think the counter to the super carriers is obviously titans, everyone should be fleeting more titans! ms does more DPS than titan... but what would happen 1v1? i dont know but titans have 3x the tank dont they? it's just as good as trying to match an ibis vs a caracal... with the way they r being used now titan will logoff on the 1st sign of a threat the general issue is that we would have an even match if we would put them isk wise which means 3 moms vs 1 titan and then titan would most likely lose cuz it just cant active tank 30k dps and with passive tank his buffor will disapear in what ? 10? 20 minutes? just enough for 1-2 dd which wont even put down 1 ms (add 4-5dps from close range guns to be fair) but then again moms got rr and ** dont get me wrong, im not talking about nerfing supercaps (altho i wouldnt cry if they would be nerfed) but in case of cap warfare eve is atm Supercarrier-Online which started after Seleene's **up with ballance... would be fun to have a sieged dreads being able to tackle caps up to 40km with a point (i dont know how u would explain that - sieged point whatever) and the fun might come back to use them again since atm all u need is to kill hics and then its just warp out if low hp and go back couple sec l8er when enemy changes the target other idea would be to give them considerably more dps against caps and some more hp but then again they might end up overpowered :( (i suck at ballancing) and to prevent them from instapopping the toweres reduce their sig radiusos or something xVid4PSP MKV Encoding Tutorial
it440 Caldari OZ industries and Technology	Posted - 2010.09.14 09:16:00 - [25] lovekebab, i see what your saying but its not like just a few alliances are privledge to use mother ships, anyone can train and use them, i see it as a reward for all the long training and making enough isk to fly them. and look at what your risking flying them compared to dreads, they deserve what they can do. CCP supports this message. I think.
LoveKebab Caldari LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.09.14 10:09:00 - [26] training for carrier takes routhly 5days less than for a ms (titans r off the scale with cap ships 5) unless u take the fighters 5 into equasion(which carrier pilots usually dont train) skilled pilot can earn enough isk to buy a mothership in aprox 1-2 months if he rly gets into it (it took me like 2 weeks but it was a diferent eve back then :P) isk was never the issue in this game - isk factor mentioned by ccp back in the days when they introduced the moms and titans today is a big laugh since not only big alliances can afford titan but played on their own can buy 1 or 2 even (all hail to t2 bpo) xVid4PSP MKV Encoding Tutorial
it440 Caldari OZ industries and Technology	Posted - 2010.09.14 10:37:00 - [27] dont forget about fighters V to train fighter bombers, ive got carriers V now and still 24 days to fighters V and then ill train fb to V too, thats alot i think and about the isk, wow! im a serious carebear and cant touch that, been grinding and saving for about 7 months and just made 20b missioning my butt off. CCP supports this message. I think.
Hadiax	Posted - 2010.09.14 13:30:00 - [28] Originally by: Impact1983 Originally by: LoveKebab Originally by: it440 i would think the counter to the super carriers is obviously titans, everyone should be fleeting more titans! ms does more DPS than titan... And there is currently no counter to a mom, unless you plan on bring 10-15 pilots per mom pilot which would be hard as I can easy get 30 man fleets but how am I going to grab 200 man fleets to counter 20 moms? We need a counter which the current dread is mothballed so why not work in a counter with the dread??? And yes a mom is = to 10 or 15 cruisers maybe bc so we need a realistic counter to them not just lagging out the system with 200 man fleets. So in essence you're complaining that you can't beat a mom with 15 cruisers or battlecruisers? I mean seriously? A 20bil ship can't be beaten by 15 10-ish or even 15 100-ish mil ships? Damn I NEVER saw that comming! Obviously if your fleet consists at out cruisers & battlecruisers moms will eat you. Same goes for a dread, you cannot make a 1bil ship take on a 15bil one, that's absurd. Yes a solution has to be found, but just random boosting a dread for instance is not it. Maybe another ship (like a dread but then mom size & priced) that is the same 'upgraded' version of a dread as the mom is off the carrier.
LoveKebab Caldari LOST IDEA C0VEN	Posted - 2010.09.14 17:31:00 - [29] Originally by: Hadiax Originally by: Impact1983 Originally by: LoveKebab Originally by: it440 i would think the counter to the super carriers is obviously titans, everyone should be fleeting more titans! ms does more DPS than titan... And there is currently no counter to a mom, unless you plan on bring 10-15 pilots per mom pilot which would be hard as I can easy get 30 man fleets but how am I going to grab 200 man fleets to counter 20 moms? We need a counter which the current dread is mothballed so why not work in a counter with the dread??? And yes a mom is = to 10 or 15 cruisers maybe bc so we need a realistic counter to them not just lagging out the system with 200 man fleets. So in essence you're complaining that you can't beat a mom with 15 cruisers or battlecruisers? I mean seriously? A 20bil ship can't be beaten by 15 10-ish or even 15 100-ish mil ships? Damn I NEVER saw that comming! Obviously if your fleet consists at out cruisers & battlecruisers moms will eat you. Same goes for a dread, you cannot make a 1bil ship take on a 15bil one, that's absurd. Yes a solution has to be found, but just random boosting a dread for instance is not it. Maybe another ship (like a dread but then mom size & priced) that is the same 'upgraded' version of a dread as the mom is off the carrier. following ur logic - u CAN kill 60bil ship with 3x 20bil ships without much problem... ofc there is always the tackling issue but the point stands xVid4PSP MKV Encoding Tutorial
Torothanax	Posted - 2010.09.14 18:18:00 - [30] Originally by: King Rothgar Removing the siege mod limitation on them for damage dealing wouldn't alter their role too much. My revelation can't hit a BS going 90m/s at 50km with pulses and that's with a TCII. If you're worried about them slaughtering BS's, I think you have nothing to worry about. Their tracking is so bad even out of siege that they just can't hit a moving target. Of course they could hit a stationary BS but they can already do that. I have a few funny solo kills with my rev because the target simply parked next to me and didn't move at all. Removing the siege mod limitation on their damage output simply makes them more mobile like carriers. It allows you to hit a POS or another capital and pull out if things get a little too hot. Their should be an advantage to sieging, but it shouldn't be mandatory to dish out the damage, it should give you other benefits instead. I think Rothgar here has a very valid point. Being stuck in one place should really be the only drawback of a sieging (and no outside rep of course). It's a pretty severe drawback. seiging should bring benfits. It should be an option to improve preformance, not a requirement to be useful in any way.



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