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My idea on how to rid of Learning skills.

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Mashie Saldana BFG Tech	Posted - 2010.09.14 09:06:00 - [31] Originally by: MSC Darklord My +10 bonus objects to your +9 suggestion. And my +12 bonus would like to have a word with your +10 bonus.
Sendraks The Spice Weasels Must Flow	Posted - 2010.09.14 09:19:00 - [32] Originally by: Covert Kitty I for one am about 1.5ish some years old, May I just say that for someone who is all of 18months old, your spelling, sentence structure and use of grammar is excellent. I also think your views on learning skills are pretty spot on as well.
Zagdul Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2010.09.14 11:36:00 - [33] Edited by: Zagdul on 14/09/2010 11:37:02 1. Refund Skill Points 2. Base allotted attribute points we can allocate accordingly. 3. New implants manufactured with PI.
BaldyBob Minmatar Shondi Enterprises	Posted - 2010.09.14 11:48:00 - [34] Originally by: Covert Kitty Edited by: Covert Kitty on 14/09/2010 08:49:35 Quote: Where's the problem? Make your choice and deal with it. Your missing the whole point. This isn't a topic about a bunch of noob's complaining about how much training sucks or something. I for one am about 1.5ish some years old, I've long since trained learning skills to 5/4. This topic doesn't effect me personally, yet I would support getting rid of it even without a sp refund. Instead it's about recognizing and correcting a game design flaw. But surely whether it's a flaw or not is down to personal choice and your point of view. You can't outrightly claim that something is flawed because it's disagreed with. For me, it's not a game design flaw, it's a mechanism whereby I can improve my training times, which improves my experience of Eve overall because I can learn things faster. Surely that's a mechanism which supports building a pyramid of structure ? I understand that these learning skills may put off new players, I have no answer to that other than the argument I put forth before, choice. Adapt to the game world you play in or don't. It doesn't mean you have to leave the game or alter the game mechanics, simply play the game the way you want. Why try and affect it for others ?
betoli	Posted - 2010.09.14 12:29:00 - [35] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 14/09/2010 06:28:37 Personally I would get rid of learning implants and instead create another tier of elite learning skills (x10 training speed) with 1 to 5 levels. The gain from this is: people would dare going into PvP again instead of spinning in station in fear of losing their +5 implants. And another skill to train for us collectors. It will also still be a money sink with the cost, and you can also add lp cost to it if you want to. I agree. The problem with the current training IMO is that the trade off decision available to new players (get stuck in vs take time and be more efficient) actually stops being available once you've learned them. Adding extra tiers of learning would fix that (and make even high tiers of skills practical). I might suggest that higher tiers apply per subject area "advanced drone studies" rather than modding the attributes to stupidly high values. And yes I also think implants deter people from PVP. 100m in +4 implants is a lot to lose if you would otherwise just risk a cruiser/BC. And people wonder why low sec is underutilised....
MSC Darklord Minmatar Shadow Company	Posted - 2010.09.14 13:52:00 - [36] Originally by: Mashie Saldana Originally by: MSC Darklord My +10 bonus objects to your +9 suggestion. And my +12 bonus would like to have a word with your +10 bonus. I think my +10 bonus should meet your +12 and have sexy babies and pump out some +18 stats for us. __________________________ Originally by: CCP Tuxford my bad. Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers. Said after a 60 second shut down notice that was then canceled.
Kezzle	Posted - 2010.09.14 18:17:00 - [37] Originally by: BaldyBob Originally by: Flap jak You don't really need to train the learning skills if you don't want to... Nothing is stopping you from training any skill in this game without first training any of the learning skills. You may train skills a little more slowly... This is arrant nonsense. The difference between training learning skills and not training them is rather more than 'a little' time, in total. It's a poor game mechanic because it forces a choice (or some sort of unsatisfactory compromise) between long term progression and early-game achievement, in a game which it's hard enough to get new people interested anyway, for all kinds of reasons. Seeing your character develop initially is a big draw for (MMO)RPG players; denying them any concrete, play-affecting progress of they want to be 'efficient' is just counterproductive.
Alia Poole	Posted - 2010.09.14 18:19:00 - [38] Originally by: uNtOldPAIN How about... just train them. This
Covert Kitty Amarr ISK Solutions SRS.	Posted - 2010.09.14 18:26:00 - [39] Quote: But surely whether it's a flaw or not is down to personal choice and your point of view. You can't outrightly claim that something is flawed because it's disagreed with. I believe I can actually. Learning skills are in direct conflict with most of the goals of an mmo and do not fit nicely within the gameplay structure of eve. 1. They effectively only affect new players, the vast majority will have trained them at least to 4/4 within their first few months. 2. They are proven to be a turn off for newer players, not everyone (maybe not you), but accept that many are. Myself included after my "new player experience" I basically stopped playing and training skills for a month and almost quit. I didn't however, and I enjoy the game today. Eve has a lot of rough edges and unpolished features as anyone who has played for awhile knows, learning skills are just one of the more obvious ones. 3. They provide no sand for a players sandbox, they add no gameplay Those are directly in conflict with many goals of the game. Most people in favor of retaining them are of the mind "I had to do it, so should you", yet is that not an acknowledgement of the issue? Almost nobody looks back on training learning skills fondly. Besides, you would be refunded the sp you sunk into them, so removing them benefits all. The skill system generally provides something for the player to look forward to. What do learning skills cause the player to look forward to? Looking forward to looking forward faster? The mechanic psychologically doesn't work well, and is out of line with almost every other skill in the game. --- There were some that opposed the idea of the 24 hr skill queue when ccp announced it, they decry'ed it as being too soft and after all shouldn't people who can login the second their skill stopped training be rewarded? We don't want eve to turn into WoW right? And omg, they were going to get rid of the base attributes being tied to character creation and allow periodic remaps!! Surely PvE servers and raids against the litch king were right around the corner! Of course, those were all horrible game mechanics that didn't benefit anyone, and these days nobody sane looks back fondly at the days when they had to work their day around trying to get to eve at the right time to continue their skills, or be permanently disadvantaged by a sub optimal character choice. Just accept that Eve is not a perfect game. It is and always has been in a process of improving and polishing, and that doesn't always mean things stay exactly the same.
King Dave The Collective	Posted - 2010.09.14 18:48:00 - [40] Why not just remove them, re-allocate the skill points, then don't give any extra attributes? People train stuff too quickly nowadays anyway, I recently did a bs 5 in like 20 days or something ****ed. Game loses interest when you can do stuff too quickly, without any real time investment. --------- "Evil Edna > just get director roles, put child ** in the corp bio and then petition ccp"

Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.09.14 18:57:00 - [41] Because then new players are pretty much ****ed.
Rewind12 Heaven's Army Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.09.14 19:05:00 - [42] Edited by: Rewind12 on 14/09/2010 19:06:35 Umm why not just leave things as they are? Some people did indeed spend time to get them all to lvl5, rank 1 and 3. And when higher rank skills came out loled their arses off at other mates that trained the same skill a few days slower. You no want speed bonus, you no train. There. You want bonus and no train, train cybernetics , get +4's +5's in yer brain, go pew pew , get podded, rage, rinse , repeat. Or, be smarter about it, train fast to the minimum lvl4 missioning needs, then grind lvl4's till all those learning skills finish. That's what a friend is doing atm, and i encourage it, also cybernetics to 4 would be a + before starting the learning skills. But please please please, don't ***** about it. It's your own fault you can't restrain yourself from getting new skills, not the devs' . They just put the options there, you choose what to do with them.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.09.14 19:18:00 - [43] Quote: Your missing the whole point. This isn't a topic about a bunch of noob's complaining about how much training sucks or something. You are correct, this thread is about people wanting instant gratification. Learning skills are a good idea for a main character. Learning skills are usually a stupid idea for a special purpose alt. You decide if it is advantageous to lose time in the short term to gain accelerated training in the long term. For an alt, which outnumber main characters 2 to 1, they are usually counter productive. It is generally a stupid idea to train 2 months worth of learning skills so that the 3 weeks of training your specialty alt needs to be useful will complete a couple of days earlier. You have the option, and choice is a good thing. If a better system is proposed, one that does not "boost everyone's stats by 10" for no apparent reason, then it is worth looking at. Until then you make your choice and live with the consequences, just like every other aspect of EVE. PS: Some of you people spend WAAAAYYYY too much time worrying about min maxing your experience points. Play the game instead of letting the game play you. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Ghurkan Bloodfire	Posted - 2010.09.14 19:31:00 - [44] If it Aint broke , dont fix it!! (train yur damned skills like the rest of us had too and stop crying) /me offers out cheese.
Zendoren Aktaeon Industries	Posted - 2010.09.14 19:42:00 - [45] Originally by: RiskyFrisky Instead of +2-5 implants. Why not add a little extra, like +6-10 implants? Introduce the skill "Advanced Cybernetics" Get rid of learning skills. And make us spend billions in Isk to get 10 implants! >.> If this is done, I will need implants to be added to killmails.... I need to know if the ratio of care-bear tears and ISK loss is in proportion to one another when shooting people in the face in internets space!
Jita Alt666	Posted - 2010.09.14 20:37:00 - [46] Edited by: Jita Alt666 on 14/09/2010 20:41:30 I do not understand why people insist on calling learning skills a design flaw. New players have choices to make, those choices will affect what they can fly and how long it will take to learn to fly what they want. IMO there is ample room with the learning bonus to get yourself into a semi t2 fit cruiser and then start some learning skills. Telling new people to grind out learning skills is as stupid as telling new people to grind out t2 large lasers. It is not a game design flaw, its flawed advice for new players. Most players start the game with a random collection of oh that will be cool skills, only to find that 3/4 of them will have little relevance to the path they wish to take as they discover the universe. Saying its ok to just lose the sp that learning skills have is also incredibly unfair, 5.376mil of sp at 2000sp per hour is 2688 hours/240 days or 8 months of sp that would be lost on some alts. At $15 a month thats $120 dollars in real life or 2.4bil in plex that your proposing to just make evaporate. edit: to all the people saying, "in mmo's a players goals should be..." Eve online is not like any other MMO, it has since its inception prided itself on being different than WOW and the other immediate satisfaction online games that are dumbing down society. Claiming the new player experience should emulate other mmo's shows a lack of understanding of eve itself.
Covert Kitty Amarr ISK Solutions SRS.	Posted - 2010.09.14 20:49:00 - [47] Edited by: Covert Kitty on 14/09/2010 20:50:43 Some of the above statements and repetitions I have already torn apart so I wont repeat my replies to them. Quote: Saying its ok to just lose the sp that learning skills have is also incredibly unfair While I stated that I would personally be fine with just loosing them, thats not really on the table. The better solution, and what most people suggest, as well as what the CSM's plan lays out is a reimbursement of any sp invested in learning skills for your immediate redistribution. I certainly see that as fair to everyone. Quote: I will need implants to be added to killmails Fairly unrelated to the topic, however a good idea and one that has been brought up a number of times. Many people would like to see implants on their killmails. I would certainly be for it.
Jita Alt666	Posted - 2010.09.14 20:51:00 - [48] Edited by: Jita Alt666 on 14/09/2010 20:55:38 You havent torn any of them apart. 1. I (and a lot of older players) prefered ghost training (starting a 6 month skill deactivating account - reactivating to finish the skill) to the 24 hour skill queue. 2. Once a week there is a thread on this forum asking why all the races are the same. Not every one likes having standardised beginning skills. You claim these things are universally accepted. They are not.
Rewind12 Heaven's Army Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2010.09.14 20:52:00 - [49] Edited by: Rewind12 on 14/09/2010 20:52:58 Originally by: Jita Alt666 Eve online is not like any other MMO, it has since its inception prided itself on being different than WOW and the other immediate satisfaction online games that are dumbing down society. <<--- Mining, mission running have been reported to stimulate a low to moderate IQ increase over a period of 1 year, test subject pool of 1kish. Ratting and plexing in 0.0 results have shown peeks of 20 points( on the more difficult dungeons..errmmm complexes), while the average seems to surpass that of the mining/missioning. Same period, same subject numbers. However, more daring test has been run,on subjects locally known as low-level pewpew'ers, risky as it may have been , it yielded unexpected results, on average 70-90% increase in IQ, with peaks of 50 points. The subject pool however failed to resemble the average man, thus being catalogued as primate experiment. Conclusion : Smarter monkeys in space.
Covert Kitty Amarr ISK Solutions SRS.	Posted - 2010.09.14 21:55:00 - [50] Edited by: Covert Kitty on 14/09/2010 21:58:04 Quote: I (and a lot of older players) prefered ghost training (starting a 6 month skill deactivating account - reactivating to finish the skill) to the 24 hour skill queue. The removal of ghost training, and the implementation of the skill queue are two completely separate topics despite being implemented at the same time. Most people did not ghost train, and those of you that were crying about loosing your little exploit and threatening that CCP would loose tons customers over it were utterly wrong, in fact population growth after apocrypha was great. Again, this post has nothing to do with old players. Like learning skills, the skill queue doesn't mean much to a player who is primarily training 2+ week skills. Thats not true for new players of course, only a fool could not see how big of a benefit the implementation of the skill queue was to the younger group. Quote: 2. Once a week there is a thread on this forum asking why all the races are the same. Not every one likes having standardised beginning skills. Those same posts often have little to nothing to do with attribute points. Players are accustomed from other games to races that differ in various ways. Originally Eve was somewhat influenced by that. Though it turned out for the most part to not really work well with Eve and has been slowly removed or played down. Once Incarna is in full form I think you will see those posts reduced somewhat since the character creation system will be redone and polished better. However Eve is quite fundamentally different from other mmo's (for the better imo) and so there will always be some confusion at character creation surrounding this.

Lost Greybeard	Posted - 2010.09.14 22:03:00 - [51] Leave 'em, because they're fine? Training to +8 in every stat takes, what, a week and a half under the double-speed buff? The fact that the last couple of points take a lot of time and have minimal impact just makes them identical to 99 percent of skills. Complaining about learning skills is like complaining about cloaking 5, it's your own damned fault for wasting your time instead of realizing that the benefit wasn't worth it.
Ghoest	Posted - 2010.09.14 22:20:00 - [52] This topic is stupid. There are extremely simple and obvious way to get rid of learning skills. Why suggest something that isnt simple or better? Wherever you went - Here you are.
Moriel Damodred Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2010.09.14 22:22:00 - [53] New players cannot train advanced learnings to 5 in their first few days anyway. They wont have the money. That whole argument around new players blah, is total BS, because the reality is they want to make throwaway alts faster. Everyone else had a sig and i felt lonly :(
TheBlueMonkey Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2010.09.14 22:27:00 - [54] Originally by: MSC Darklord Originally by: Mashie Saldana Originally by: MSC Darklord My +10 bonus objects to your +9 suggestion. And my +12 bonus would like to have a word with your +10 bonus. I think my +10 bonus should meet your +12 and have sexy babies and pump out some +18 stats for us. How about we just cut to the chase and give everyone all level 5s? Or better yet, have 3 servers, main, mirrored test and all level 5 test. That way all those that want all the skills now can go and "play" on that server and leave others to play a real game? -- Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
Covert Kitty Amarr ISK Solutions SRS.	Posted - 2010.09.14 22:40:00 - [55] Edited by: Covert Kitty on 14/09/2010 22:45:53 Quote: There are extremely simple and obvious way to get rid of learning skills. Yup, its right here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Modify_or_Remove_Learning_Skills_(CSM) Quote: That whole argument around new players blah, is total BS, because the reality is they want to make throwaway alts faster. If I needed more alt's I'd just buy them with isk. As I stated above, you can easily mitigate any potential issues regarding fast alt creation via a number of methods, limiting the 100% skillpoint speed to being usable only once or twice per account. It could also be potentially offset by a reduction in the amount of sp the 100% training time lasts for. There are a few other ways it could be done as well, I don't really care one way or another. Quote: How about we just cut to the chase and give everyone all level 5s? Instant full lvl 5's and learning skills have one thing in common: They would-be/are bad game design.
Lost Greybeard	Posted - 2010.09.15 01:11:00 - [56] Originally by: Covert Kitty Edited by: Covert Kitty on 14/09/2010 22:45:53 Instant full lvl 5's and learning skills have one thing in common: They would-be/are bad game design. So... um... then why did your CSM link directly advocate giving out automatic skill levels? That link was a compilation of the worst ideas regarding learning rather than the best, imo.
Doddy The Executives IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.15 01:12:00 - [57] ccp knows exactly how they would remove learning skills (remove and reimburse sp for everyone who trained them) the question is will they? I for one hope they do, as it is clearly puts new players off.
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.09.15 01:18:00 - [58] Originally by: Doddy ccp knows exactly how they would remove learning skills (remove and reimburse sp for everyone who trained them) the question is will they? I for one hope they do, as it is clearly puts new players off. The only question i have left is what's taking them so long. My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Zagdul Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2010.09.15 01:30:00 - [59] Here's the reason I dislike learning skills: When a new character is created, it's given a training bonus. Many bittervets will hoot and holler about how they had to walk uphil in snow backwards...etc... get over it. So, new characters get this... How would anyone who is intelligent spend this 1.6 mil 100% training bonus? That's right... Learning skills. From a business standpoint on CCP's end, this is... bad business to new players because this is in essence telling anyone new to EVE that they should sit on their thumbs for their first month. The argument to this is: "Insta gratification... etc.." Negative, because new players who are training up frig 1...2...3... etc.. are saving what... 1 day on a 10 day skill? The main people this will benefit are people who are looking down the barrel at 20+ day skills. Not new players. It will however make the game more appealing to newer players and help retention.
Abaroth Charmar	Posted - 2010.09.15 02:39:00 - [60] Removing the learning skills would mean CCP ****ing off veterans (2004 player here btw) just to please the n00b whiners and to attract new players. What sort of company alienates its most loyal, longest serving customers by pandering to the whim of new ones? Oh wait: Sky BT Vodafone O2 Talk Talk Direct Line etc etc Everything is "new customers only" these days.



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