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My idea on how to rid of Learning skills.

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RiskyFrisky Under the Table Inc.	Posted - 2010.09.13 12:39:00 - [1] Instead of +2-5 implants. Why not add a little extra, like +6-10 implants? Introduce the skill "Advanced Cybernetics" Get rid of learning skills. And make us spend billions in Isk to get 10 implants! >.> _ Starcakes are the answer to life.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.09.13 12:40:00 - [2] There are good ways to do it (remove them, give everyone +9 or so on base attributes, reimburse SP in learning skills), and there are terrible ways to do it (yours).
uNtOldPAIN Minmatar Covert-Nexus	Posted - 2010.09.13 12:41:00 - [3] How about... just train them.
RiskyFrisky Under the Table Inc.	Posted - 2010.09.13 12:41:00 - [4] Originally by: Furb Killer There are good ways to do it (remove them, give everyone +9 or so on base attributes, reimburse SP in learning skills), and there are terrible ways to do it (yours). I know right? _ Starcakes are the answer to life.
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange	Posted - 2010.09.13 12:51:00 - [5] Originally by: RiskyFrisky Instead of +2-5 implants. Why not add a little extra, like +6-10 implants? Introduce the skill "Advanced Cybernetics" Get rid of learning skills. And make us spend billions in Isk to get 10 implants! >.> I love the idea, when I started 2 days into the game I had enough money for a set of +5's, plus a little extra to buy my first Golem to grind for 2 billion ISK +10's! Just what we need not only can the new not compete but lets widen the gap for the rich and skilled. How bout thinking before you post and don't forget there is a forum for Features and Ideas! -- Tactical Responder who is Organized and a Leading-edge Linguist
stoicfaux	Posted - 2010.09.13 14:26:00 - [6] Originally by: RiskyFrisky Get rid of learning skills. And make us spend billions in Isk to get 10 implants! How many people would PvP regularly with billions in implants? ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
Hakkar'al Gallente	Posted - 2010.09.13 14:50:00 - [7] Not everyone is a PvPer
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange	Posted - 2010.09.13 14:58:00 - [8] Originally by: Hakkar'al Gallente Not everyone is a PvPer Right so we should unbalance PVP! Also I would take special pleasure in roling a Catalyst or Thrasher Alt to get epic pod popping tears, after my main takes a small sec hit from disassembling there ship with 1400mm's Cause balence is important! -- Tactical Responder who is Organized and a Leading-edge Linguist
John Holt Caldari Tactical Trading Partnership	Posted - 2010.09.13 15:01:00 - [9] See this CSM Link on the subject.
Sisohiv	Posted - 2010.09.13 15:26:00 - [10] If they wanted to get rid of learning skills and I haven't seen anything suggesting they do, they could just give us monthly remaps.

oolk Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.09.13 17:14:00 - [11] Originally by: John Holt See this CSM Link on the subject. Nope...then its just a matter of sps...we took time Quote: TIME to train both categories to 5 thus cuting training time for other skills we badly needed meanwhile. Just like them now. With the exception...we didnt had double speed training... Ah the old holly we had to do it so they will too thread resurection Batman
Arkanor Gallente Ixion Defence Systems	Posted - 2010.09.13 18:00:00 - [12] Originally by: uNtOldPAIN How about... just train them. How about... lets solve a crappy game mechanic instead of butthurtly telling people to just deal with it like we all had to.
Nnamuachs Caldari Kiith Paktu Hiigaran Protectorate	Posted - 2010.09.13 18:55:00 - [13] Originally by: Arkanor Originally by: uNtOldPAIN How about... just train them. How about... lets solve a crappy game mechanic instead of butthurtly telling people to just deal with it like we all had to. Obviously the easiest solution is remove the learning skills and be done with it. Nothing wrong with base stats + implants, everybody wins.
Barkaial Starfinder Minmatar The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost	Posted - 2010.09.13 19:12:00 - [14] The solutions have been made already, there is no point in discussing new bad ones. We depend on CCP applying them, or not.
Dzil Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.13 19:43:00 - [15] Most of mine are 5-5, a few 5-4. I'd love if they just dropped them. Would let new characters spend their double SP on something actually interesting, instead of a bunch of long term attribute increases that leave them in t1 ships they can't fit. Retired from corp sales. Time to spend some of this on pretty explosions :)
Sisohiv	Posted - 2010.09.14 06:06:00 - [16] Originally by: Dzil Most of mine are 5-5, a few 5-4. I'd love if they just dropped them. Would let new characters spend their double SP on something actually interesting, instead of a bunch of long term attribute increases that leave them in t1 ships they can't fit. Thats a common mistake new players make based on bad advice from old players. Science, Electronics, Navigation, Spaceship command are all groups of skills but are as well skills. I tell all new people to train those to 4, then train anything with upgrade in it to 3. Pick a race, train ships to Cruiser 3 in it. Try out Industrials, maybe mining ships if they like. Then once they have enough skills to actually use modules and it wont tak more than a few weeks, they can consider 4/4 on learning. Why people tell people to grind out 2 months of Learning skills is beyond me. Thats fine if its an alt but for a true noob on a main? Thats burnout suicide.
Flap jak	Posted - 2010.09.14 06:13:00 - [17] just train the damn learning skills! if you don't guess what, your going to train your other skills slower. its the reward of training your learning skills. gawd nubs these days. __
Zeuth Proxy Caldari Nomadic Asylum	Posted - 2010.09.14 06:14:00 - [18] I always thought that removing learning, giving base attributes to everyone, and reimbursing SP spend in learning was the best bet. Unless there is something Iam missing. Tbh the longer CCP waits on making a decision on this the bigger the issue will become. Adding +10 implants is a horrible idea. It already sucks to lose a clone with +4s or +5s I wouldn't want to imagine the rage of people losing +10s. It only benefits the carebears not the PVPers.
Niccolado Starwalker Gallente Shadow Templars	Posted - 2010.09.14 06:27:00 - [19] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 14/09/2010 06:28:37 Originally by: RiskyFrisky Instead of +2-5 implants. Why not add a little extra, like +6-10 implants? Introduce the skill "Advanced Cybernetics" Get rid of learning skills. And make us spend billions in Isk to get 10 implants! >.> Personally I would get rid of learning implants and instead create another tier of elite learning skills (x10 training speed) with 1 to 5 levels. The gain from this is: people would dare going into PvP again instead of spinning in station in fear of losing their +5 implants. And another skill to train for us collectors. It will also still be a money sink with the cost, and you can also add lp cost to it if you want to. Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL.
Psymn	Posted - 2010.09.14 06:33:00 - [20] im being swayed on the learning skills issues. If you still kept a certain amount of attributes re-mappable every so often people would still have to chose where to specialise and such. Also, while you are at it give everyone a new remap opportunity :p I need to recover from a rather nasty remapping accident :(

TheBlueMonkey Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2010.09.14 07:21:00 - [21] Edited by: TheBlueMonkey on 14/09/2010 07:23:31 Originally by: Hakkar'al Gallente Not everyone is a PvPer Probably shouldn't be playing a pvp game then and before you argue. If you went to a wow server, when picking the server, would you pick a pvp server if you didn't want to pvp? edit; oh, as for the op this is the problem. One camp wants the skills gone but everyone gets +10 attributes One camp wants them replaced with implants One camp doesn't care I think they should just pull them and not boost anything, everyone learns slower and those that have been crying over "having to ocd the skills to 5/5" and go suck an egg. -- Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
MSC Darklord Minmatar Shadow Company	Posted - 2010.09.14 07:31:00 - [22] Originally by: Furb Killer There are good ways to do it (remove them, give everyone +9 or so on base attributes, reimburse SP in learning skills), and there are terrible ways to do it (yours). My +10 bonus objects to your +9 suggestion. __________________________ Originally by: CCP Tuxford my bad. Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers. Said after a 60 second shut down notice that was then canceled.
Covert Kitty Amarr ISK Solutions SRS.	Posted - 2010.09.14 07:38:00 - [23] Edited by: Covert Kitty on 14/09/2010 07:43:42 Quote: I'd love if they just dropped them. Would let new characters spend their double SP on something actually interesting, instead of a bunch of long term attribute increases that leave them in t1 ships they can't fit. Agree completely, its a horribly designed game mechanic. Quote: Thats a common mistake new players make based on bad advice from old players. Is it? You don't need an old player to tell you that, all you need to do is open up evemon and do a 2 week skill train. Evemon will correctly suggest that you basically just log off and not even play for about 3 days while some initial learning skills train. The difference is not small. That may seem like nothing, but a new player is probably excited to try the game, seeing stuff like that is just a turnoff. And unlike almost any other skill in the game, learning skills do not give you any new sand for your sandbox. Quote: just train the damn learning skills!...... gawd nubs these days. I trained the "damn learning skills", I'm not a nub, yet at the same time I also recognize how poor of a game mechanic it is. Quote: Probably shouldn't be playing a pvp game then and before you argue. I'm not really sure why people have that impression about Eve actually. Almost everyone across null,low,high,wspace spends most of their time carebareing and avoiding fights. Thanks to the mechanics of aggression (stations, gates) and all seeing local almost all small gang combat is completely consensual unless your blind or stupid. (not trying to suggest that theres much shortage of either however). Quote: One camp wants the skills gone but everyone gets +10 attributes, One camp wants them replaced with implants Or a bit of both, refund the sp using the system that already exists for that. Increase base attributes evenly to the equiv of 5/4 or 5/5 levels and leave the implant system as it is. I would be fine with solving it via a more granular implant system as well (the high and low end prices would stay the same, but you would have more in the middle)
Niccolado Starwalker Gallente Shadow Templars	Posted - 2010.09.14 07:38:00 - [24] One thing that I have always been wondering about is, how many of those who stay in empire, stay there because they dont want to risk their implants. And if those where replaced with another learning tier instead, how many again of those would decide to go to deep space? Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL.
BaldyBob Minmatar Shondi Enterprises	Posted - 2010.09.14 07:56:00 - [25] Originally by: Flap jak just train the damn learning skills! if you don't guess what, your going to train your other skills slower. its the reward of training your learning skills. gawd nubs these days. Echoes my sentiments, well said. You don't really need to train the learning skills if you don't want to, something I'm sure a lot of people have already said but needs repeating. Nothing is stopping you from training any skill in this game without first training any of the learning skills. You may train skills a little more slowly than somebody who has made the effort to train the learning skills but that's your choice, surely? It all comes down to choice. I choose to train learning skills, it takes me a little longer to get some skills that I require but I have a tradeoff in the long run. Somebody chooses not to train learning skills, they benefit by getting other skills earlier on than I do. Where's the problem ? Make your choice and deal with it.
Covert Kitty Amarr ISK Solutions SRS.	Posted - 2010.09.14 07:59:00 - [26] Quote: One thing that I have always been wondering about is, how many of those who stay in empire, stay there because they dont want to risk their implants. And if those where replaced with another learning tier instead, how many again of those would decide to go to deep space? I basically agree, I've always felt that having to choose between higher risk pvp and fast learning time, or choosing between high grade pirate implants and faster training, was an unfortunate thing to have to choose between. If it was up to me I would ditch that too and just leave implants for skill boosting related stuff. Then again, If it was up to me I would scrap the whole time based training system and instead replace it with a greatly expanded implant system (so you would buy the skill sets, and plug them into your clones, etc) allowing for skills to be economically focused instead, like everything else in the game. But thats just dreaming and I doubt one could ever get a consensus for that kind of a change in eve. To orient back to the OP, I certainly don't feel that the way attribute implants work is nearly as bad of a system as the learning skills are, and they are fundamentally two unrelated topics.
King Pleasure	Posted - 2010.09.14 08:34:00 - [27] Training skills aren't really a bad thing. They separate the wheat from the chaff and the half way intelligent from the downright stupid. And people don't need everything handed to them on a plate. Taking the time to learn the learning skills is an achievement of sorts, akin to other hard grinds in other MMO's. Hell back in my day we camped that damn cleric epic spawn for two weeks straight and you didn't hear us *****ing and moaning. (Well, you did... but that's not the point!) And beside all that everyone knows a lot of nice, long grind builds muscle tone.
Covert Kitty Amarr ISK Solutions SRS.	Posted - 2010.09.14 08:37:00 - [28] Quote: Where's the problem? Make your choice and deal with it. Your missing the whole point. This isn't a topic about a bunch of noob's complaining about how much training sucks or something. I for one am about 1.5ish some years old, I've long since trained learning skills to 5/4. This topic doesn't effect me personally, yet I would support getting rid of it even without a sp refund. Instead it's about recognizing and correcting a game design flaw. Eve is about playing in the sandbox. Weather it's being able to fly a new ship or fly it better, use new t2 modules, mine gas, or manufacture new things, skills generally put more sand in your sandbox, new things you can try out or be better at. Learning skills however do not, in addition to that they are heavily bias against new players, the very same players who are trying to learn the game and decide if they want to become a long term member of the Eve community. Almost all new players learn about evemon and the impact of learning skills almost immediately. For the sake of illustrating my point I have made a new character and put together an initial train for a common ship we all love/hate, the drake. The train is 16 days long including the recommended learning skills. The learning skills take 2d 16h to complete. Granted, not long for many of us who are accustomed to 2-4 weeks for a lvl V. However I have other skills, I can go scan some wormholes, or go pvp, I know other people in the game..... but thats not true for most new players. So evemon is basically telling them (correctly) "Welcome to Eve Online!... now log off and come back in a few days" But hey as you said, learning skills are a choice right? They don't need to train them! So heres the choice on the above train: 16days with learning skills, OR 26 days without them. Awesome choice huh? And thats only a 2 week plan, I think we all know that most new players will shove a battleship train in there and see what thats like. It's not a small difference. There are many things in game and in life that one could technically choose to do, like autopilot their freighter through lowsec, or jump off a bridge, it doesn't mean you would. So I and others are saying, just get rid of them, they don't put any sand into the sandbox, its not good game design, and it's a big turnoff for new players who may otherwise get into the game.
King Pleasure	Posted - 2010.09.14 08:44:00 - [29] Edited by: King Pleasure on 14/09/2010 08:45:39 Quote: Granted, not long for many of us who are accustomed to 2-4 weeks for a lvl V. However I have other skills, I can go scan some wormholes, or go pvp, I know other people in the game..... but thats not true for most new players. I think this is a little bit misleading. A truly new player, I think, has content which will keep them occupied for at least the first two weeks while the training takes place. It's also worth considering the income of a genuinely new player. Fitting out a drake in two weeks isn't something a lot of them have the ISK to do unless they get quite lucky. Between running the tutorials, the Sisters of Eve arc and generally finding their way around there is enough content for them to have moved up at least into a cruiser, trained some general skills as well as some basic learning skills and met some friendly people. If they have trouble with a 2 week training time for a whole set of skills which allow them to jump up three tiers of ship then perhaps EVE isn't the right game for them anyway. **Edit. I should also add that being able to fly a Drake in 16 days or 28 days or 3 months isn't going to help them if they can't find enough things to do in the first two weeks of training.
Covert Kitty Amarr ISK Solutions SRS.	Posted - 2010.09.14 08:59:00 - [30] Your point is a fair one, however I would argue that fact is somewhat less important than perception. At some point they will run into realizing how big of a difference 5/4 makes, for me personally if I recall it was after about 1 week into the game. Are learning skills factually a big deal in the big scheme of things? No, they are not. However they don't add anything to gameplay, they are just a roadblock, one that doesn't need to exist. I want new players training for ships or other fun skills and enjoying their introduction to eve. They already have to get over the common misconception of "time based training + fairly mature game = I can never compete", learning skills are just a slap in the face.



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