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[EBANK] The long, drawn-out death wail

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.19 19:17:00 - [1] Congratulations! What caused the volte face?
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.19 20:21:00 - [2] Originally by: 49473 Originally by: cosmoray I'll buy any shares at 300K but has to be before first dividend is paid out. I'll pay 350k per share Also, I don't believe any shares have even been distributed yet. Do you guys have some insider info on the current asset/liability ratio?
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.20 13:53:00 - [3] Originally by: Dirk Mortice Because they've been raising a semi-reasonable amount of isk to give back to everybody? Really? Do you think the amount they have raised over the last 12 months will balance out the 100s of billions that have been lost to those who have left the game in that period? It's possible, I guess, but it's very hard to be sure on the basis of their incomplete public accounts.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.20 14:12:00 - [4] Originally by: Biocross Originally by: RAW23 Originally by: Dirk Mortice Because they've been raising a semi-reasonable amount of isk to give back to everybody? Really? Do you think the amount they have raised over the last 12 months will balance out the 100s of billions that have been lost to those who have left the game in that period? It's possible, I guess, but it's very hard to be sure on the basis of their incomplete public accounts. If they left the game then what do they care about ISK one way or the other? The point is they might have quite liked to spend it whilst they were still in the game
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.20 15:57:00 - [5] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Anything else you guys wanna know? I'm in a good mood and if you know me you know this doesn't happen very often. What caused you guys to change your minds?
RAW23	Posted - 2010.10.11 17:48:00 - [6] Originally by: Selene D'Celeste I still really like this thread title. Can someone make "EBANK: Death Wail" T-shirts? With Ray in the pose of Munch's 'The Scream'! I'd buy one.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.11.29 21:37:00 - [7] I have no real idea about how intellectual property law applies to source code but I would assume that the code counts a someone's rl property. I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect whoever does own it (who does btw?) to liquidate out of game assets as part of the liquidation of EBANK, although I guess there is a more complicated question if developers were paid for their work on it in isk as part of an ingame arrangement. Does EBANK consider this an EBANK asset or a personal real asset?
RAW23	Posted - 2010.11.30 14:32:00 - [8] Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: RAW23 Does EBANK consider this an EBANK asset or a personal real asset? It is an EBANK asset. I'll clarify our intentions with it, which are threefold. Sell the source code. We would part with the source code for a considerable sum, hundreds of billions. This is the only working, tried and tested banking software in the EVE universe. It was developed over a couple of years and literally months of man hours were spent on it. And considering the financial possibilities I list below, we would be foolish to sell ourselves short here. Sell hosted solutions. We will offer hosted solutions on our own infrastructure for a monthly fee; as well as provide setup, support and customisations. Sell obfuscated code. We are contemplating selling obfuscated code for hosting on your own infrastructure; again we would provide setup, support and customisations for a fee. Any and all proceeds from sales will be issued as dividends to shareholders once costs were covered. Service fees will go to those performing the service. Is the plan, then, to keep EBANK operating on a skeleton basis after all the ingame assets have been liquidated in order to manage the proceeds from this last asset, with payments being made indefinitely to EBANK shareholders? Or do you forsee a final cut off point at which the administration of the source code income will be shut down as well and the code sold to the highest bidder, even if the income from the sale is negligible?
RAW23	Posted - 2010.11.30 23:15:00 - [9] Originally by: Ray McCormack **** me you ask some inane questions sometimes. The answer is whatever combination of things achieves what we want. You're absolutely right. The search for clarity is utterly inane. If you'd bothered responding to the question you would have seen that it implies the question 'What is it that you want?'. Stating that you will do whatever you want isn't really an informative answer to any question regarding what you will do. Damn! Why are simple information questions always so difficult with you?
RAW23	Posted - 2010.12.29 23:51:00 - [10] Originally by: Liberty Eternal There was nothing stupid about my argument. Although naturally, the people doing the stealing will have a different opinion to those who are stolen from. I for one am sick of reading these endless scam threads, just like most other people here. If CCP want to allow scamming, they should pay for it out of their own resources. It's not ethical to drag hundreds of innocent and unsuspecting customers into these scams and have them parted with their money. It is probably not legal either - it's about time something real was done about it and the people responsible [both CCP and the scammers] were held accountable for their actions in the real World. No. Why the hell should people be held responsible for ingame actions in the real world? I have a strong dislike for scammers but I'm glad that scamming is allowed in EVE as it adds to the depth and flavour of the game. It would be nice if CCP could introduce some mechanics to make life a bit more cumbersome for scammers as I think they get things a bit too easy at the moment but I don't see much merit in your arguments on this point.

RAW23	Posted - 2011.04.13 18:55:00 - [11] Originally by: Ray McCormack Guilt by association, I'm afraid. KIA Corp had direct connections with two defaults and one attempted theft, its directorship and membership were complicit in this fraud amounting to hundreds of billions. The time for jurisprudence is past, reparations are due and will be exacted by any means possible. Does this legitimise all defaults by EBANK depositors that occured after Ricdic's theft then? Also Kwint's actions that you whined so heartily about? And, of course, it would seem to make you and all the EBANK directors legitimate targets for any depositors to exact 'reparations' from.
RAW23	Posted - 2011.04.13 20:10:00 - [12] Originally by: Ray McCormack Justification is a useless currency in EVE, you either have the ability to enforce and exact, or you don't. Might is right. Your pathetic ethical analogies are the last desperate bastion of defence for those too pathetic to protect themselves. Welcome to impotency, population you. But boy did you ***** when Kwint took his action against EBANK. Welcome to feeble hypocrisy, etc. There is no issue of ethical analogy here, simply of ethics. It's sad to see that you have fallen so far as to invoke the might is right doctrine - it leads to some pretty unpleasant places and whilst you might flatter yourself that you are such a bad boy as to revel in those consequences I don't believe you really are. You are spouting pseudo-intellectualised garbage to justify your latest arbitrary decision, not pursuing a principled line of action. Otherwise you would just be walking with all the remaining isk in EBANK and AATP. If you don't, then you have reasons for not doing so and those reasons have nothing to do with might.
RAW23	Posted - 2011.04.13 20:15:00 - [13] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 Originally by: RAW23 Does this legitimise all defaults by EBANK depositors that occured after Ricdic's theft then? Also Kwint's actions that you whined so heartily about? I don't understand this part of your post. Can you explain further? Anyone that defaulted before or after Ricdic ran off is being treated the same. Sure. My point is that by your logic they did nothing wrong (or at least nothing different from what you are doing now). Once EBANK was tainted with guilt by association due to a director stealing depositors' isk, not to mention the overturning of the terms of service, it then becomes legitimate to withhold payment to anyone connected to the tainted body, right?
RAW23	Posted - 2011.04.13 21:01:00 - [14] Edited by: RAW23 on 13/04/2011 21:04:02 Originally by: Atima wait.... what did kwint do? http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1239103&page=1 Edit Actually, the place to start is here. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1218519&page=21#630
RAW23	Posted - 2011.04.18 16:33:00 - [15] Edited by: RAW23 on 18/04/2011 16:34:52 The issue here is being obscured somewhat by all the focus on Kwint. The current problem is the board's decision to zero account balances for all members of an alliance from which some members scammed EBANK, with justifications ranging from 'guilt by association' (SencneS - since you signed off on this one then you should probably absolve Kwint) to 'because we can' (which is really just a gloss on the guilt by association reason).
RAW23	Posted - 2011.04.18 17:45:00 - [16] Originally by: Ray McCormack Wait until you find out that we zeroed the account balances of everyone that is a member of a defaulter's corporation, then you'll really get upset. I sort of assumed that would be the case. How are you working that out? A member now, a member at the time of the default, a member at some point, or some combination? Just corps or alliances as well?
RAW23	Posted - 2011.04.19 09:22:00 - [17] Edited by: RAW23 on 19/04/2011 09:23:45 Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 tldr; We're sorry that things worked out like they did and that we aren't internet spaceship bank liquidation experts. If we could go back and change things we would but we can't. Please feel free to continue you're debate. ... I feel like everyone should know this information already but at the same time I read some of your replies and it seems like there are a few individuals who think ebank is still alive... it isn't. As far as mistakes made, sure there have been a ton of things that could and should have been done differently. Sadly, the last time I checked Brock had not yet perfected his time machine therefore we can't go back and change the past. The thing is, you acknowledge making mistakes and say you would go back and change them if you could but you then go on following exactly the same patterns of behaviour that led to those mistakes in the first place. Quote: If you were in a corp or alliance at the time that the corp or alliance defaulted/scammed (and you are still in that corp/alliance), then sadly there is no way of knowing for sure if you are an alt of an asshat or simply in the wrong corp/alliance at the wrong time. You guys can debate that if you want but it is what it is and it isn't changing. Aside from potentially giving isk to individuals that have already stolen billions, this was really the only option. No debate, no discussion, no honest attempt to check, balance or improve your own ideas or to engage in constructive dialogue. The 'mistakes were made but let's move past that' line doesn't wash when you continue to act like this. And frankly, the idea that you would rather deprive completely innocent people of their isk than allow a defaulter to get their hands on some (better 100 innocent people should hang than one guilty one go free, right?) seems like the application of Ray's perverse 'troll the customers' forum attitude to actual policy, especially after all the rigmarole about the submission of API keys precisely so you could avoid paying out to defaulters.
RAW23	Posted - 2011.04.19 16:36:00 - [18] Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 There's no need to do anymore debating, discussing, checking, balancing, or improving at this point. It's over. It's done. ... What exactly are you wanting us to go back and do? How about you get off your "greater than thou" high horse of perfection and tell me exactly what it is you think we need to go back and redo. You're no better than any of the other trolls at this point and I think you simply like to see your own text (hear yourself talk). You ask me what I think you should go back and redo whilst at the same time saying everything is over and done. The only suggestion I'm making at this point is the rather radical idea of honouring your obligations and not screwing over everyone who has been in the same alliance as a defaulter.
RAW23	Posted - 2011.04.19 17:36:00 - [19] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 19/04/2011 16:56:21 Originally by: Ray McCormack We could also braid each others' hair, how **ing fun would that be!? excellent idea Originally by:** Demaratos for they have a custom which is as follows;--whenever they are about to put their lives in peril, then they attend to the arrangement of their hair. (long hair is somewhat impractical in battle and braiding it tightly did supposedly give some additional protection to the head) Ah! Ray is on a Greek trip. That explains a lot. Originally by: Thucydides The Athenians to the Melians: Well, then, we Athenians will use no flue words; we will not go out of our way to prove at length that we have a right to rule, because we overthrew the Persians; or that we attack you now because we are suffering any injury at your hands. We should not convince you if we did; nor must you expect to convince us by arguing that, although a colony of the Lacedaemonians, you have taken no part in their expeditions, or that you have never done us any wrong. But you and we should say what we really think, and aim only at what is possible, for we both alike know that into the discussion of human affairs the question of justice only enters where the pressure of necessity is equal, and that the powerful exact what they can, and the weak grant what they must. ... The Melians refused the Athenian demand to surrender and eventually their city fell. ... The Athenians thereupon put to death all who were of military age, and made slaves of the women and children. They then colonised the island, sending thither 500 settlers of their own.
RAW23	Posted - 2011.05.24 00:55:00 - [20] Originally by: Elise DarkStar it took two years because they still wanted to play imaginary spaceships banker with what was left of other people's money despite the obvious conceptual failure of banking in eve "they didn't end up just stealing the rest" is the highest praise anyone can make, besides that it is all incompetence, negligence, and self-delusion never forget how it really went down This.

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