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Main
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Posted - 2003.06.29 10:12:00 -
[31]
Don't get into that situation, use the map and tha maps options to identify hotspots.
Main
Everlasting Vendetta Veteran
Member of the Stain Alliance |
Molly
|
Posted - 2003.06.29 10:20:00 -
[32]
Why do I have to talk to people who never met a BS by accident and why do they give me some superfluous hints.
Sigh.
int main(void) {
int main_iq;
main_iq = 0;
return (--main_iq);
}
Edited by: Molly on 29/06/2003 10:23:59
---
"Molly > funny thing is, if they warn me for attacking in 1.0, why does a GM wish me luck doing so?
Jash Illian > perverse sense of humor?
Molly > lol
Jash Illian > honestly tho, because he prolly doesn't know bships" |
Main
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Posted - 2003.06.29 10:27:00 -
[33]
Molly i have met battleships by accident and none of them have turned around and blasted me to bits? ? ? ?
I was also trying to educate you on the way to avoid meeting naughty battleships by accident.
If you can't stand to be educated by someone with an iq of 0, i suggest you move along.
Main
Everlasting Vendetta Veteran
Member of the Stain Alliance |
Molly
|
Posted - 2003.06.29 10:44:00 -
[34]
The iq scale is different in it's many implementations. So don't cry too much. You might be super intelligent in one of those scales.
But you are still lacking some common sense.
Right now the PvP between the different ship classes is the bigger the better. A battleship can blast away any smaller sized ship in 2 seconds from 2 km distance. There is not much space left for strategy and tactical thinking.
Not what I am expecting from a Sci-Fi Space Opera game.
Keep saying I paid 10 times the value of a cruiser, I want 10 times damage. I bet even the battleship vs. battleship fight is not balanced.
I have had shield systems running which saved me from some bad ass dmg done by other (players) cruisers. But I don't know about good systems for battleships which allow to cancel 4000 damage in 2 seconds.
---
"Molly > funny thing is, if they warn me for attacking in 1.0, why does a GM wish me luck doing so?
Jash Illian > perverse sense of humor?
Molly > lol
Jash Illian > honestly tho, because he prolly doesn't know bships" |
Main
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Posted - 2003.06.29 11:06:00 -
[35]
Molly, i don't know why you are trying to insult my intelligence ? ? ?
As for the rest of your post, i have been saying that since i was accepted on the beta 3 months ago.
At the moment, the winner of a battles is determined wholely before the battle even commenses i.e. who has the biggest guns, biggest ships, most jamming, etc. There is no basis for skill at all in the eve universe even though the eve universe is based on "skills".
Skills in combat really only comes into it if you start dealing with fleet combat i.e. 1 battleship, 3 cruisers and 15 frigates, etc vs another complimentary fleet. Then planning, strategy and skills do actually come into the matter.
Main
Everlasting Vendetta Veteran
Member of the Stain Alliance |
Main
|
Posted - 2003.06.29 11:09:00 -
[36]
However, saying that due to this reason, battleships, etc should be taken out of the game is not a solution to the problem of unbalanced combat.
I agree on the basis that battleships should be something that only the biggest corporations should be able to have, unforunately, that isn't the fact as very small corporations are now able to build and sell battleships now.
Edited by: Main on 29/06/2003 11:10:33
Main
Everlasting Vendetta Veteran
Member of the Stain Alliance |
M0RPHEUS
|
Posted - 2003.06.29 11:18:00 -
[37]
actualy, i think battleships are good as they are. but titans should be only availble to a few mega-corps.
Ask me nicely and I won't pod you... |
Andrea Jade
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Posted - 2003.06.29 11:19:00 -
[38]
Just to return to the fact about the ming arknor before the patches and at the beginning of the game. If you had actually scouted and found this out then you could have got fields full of ark no longer than 2 weeks ago.
However i agree with main the fact that some small corps have got bs bps really sucks. A bs is a frikin huge thing and should be restricted but not stopped. As with main ive been mining silly for my bs and im not having some little **** ranting about how we dont work for it. Stop complaining.
-AJ-
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Slave 12
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Posted - 2003.06.29 11:26:00 -
[39]
I believe one way of solving this and adding some strategy to it would be to make guns less accurate. A battleship carrying a large projectile should not be able to hit a fast moving frigate so easily. I know thats what the whole tracking speed is supposed to do, but there just needs to be a bigger penalty for the large guns. Make the battleships run around w/ some smaller weapons on them or have an actual escort to take care of the frigates.
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DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.06.29 11:30:00 -
[40]
4000 damage in 2 seconds is clearly too much, but this isnt the battleship issue... Its the weapons issue that are clearly unbalanced, or maybe our shields are. (doing 200-300 damage every hit with a single weapon x 5 every 4 seconds on a cruiser with 4000hp doesnt give much room for tactical warfare does it?).
Put a zero behind the current hp from the current ships, causing warfare be an important issue. Webifiers and warpscramblers would become the most important aspect in the game, and maybe we would see a massive battle somewhere in space like it was supposed too. It would be more fun than the current guerilla warfare i have seen so far, ppl jumping in and hitting 3 shots and running again...
Also i think Battleships are to fast made, i hoped not to see any till month 6 from the start of this game. It is true that its no fun when the maximum of this game is reached, so yeah they should have done something to prevent people from getting them so fast... But taking the battleship now is like giving a candybar to a kid for 3 tastes and then steal it back...
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Tassadar Beta
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Posted - 2003.06.29 11:34:00 -
[41]
There SHOULD be a top of the line cruiser capable of taking on a battleship, not necessarily with the aim of beating but of escaping.
If you want to compare battleship v cruiser look at the WW2. A cruiser has a chance of beating a battleship but most of the time they were pounded into oblivion.
Maybe there could be a new ship class called oddly enough battlecruisers, anyone remember them they were designed to replace the dreadnoughts of WW1. They had the guns of a battleship but the armour of a cruiser to keep some speed.
This would provide a better balance, I think anyway.
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Hideo Kojiama
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Posted - 2003.06.29 11:38:00 -
[42]
think about the big issue when we get tens of thousands of players there will be massive corps. there will be tons of gigantic battles, with frigates being the first line of defence, the cruisers, then battleships, then titans, it will be the best battles ever. so we should keep them and dont restrict them on haveing mining lasers, not allowed to be fiited there should be speciality battleships, with tons of platforms for mining lasers. we should keep the battleships.
--------------------------------------------
i am a sheep BAAAAAAAAAAAA |
vf142rex
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Posted - 2003.06.29 11:43:00 -
[43]
A few points to make,,,
1) Mining early on when there was good ore in empire space, especially when pirates were out of the game, is unfair for newer players. Especially players who live in countries where Eve wasn't released yet. To me, it seems like it put a gap in between people/corps who played beta and those who didn't.
I don't know how many played beta, but I assume there were far fewer people than there are now. So a gap exists in ship power imo between the small number of players who played in beta (I should add that know what they are doing) and the majority of people who didn't.
But here is my second point. Eve is supposed to have a plot/storyline. What that means I don't really know. I assume there will be race vs race pvp wars. The fact that players are starting to get close to the "max" in ship power is fine if there are going to be wars. The interest in the game will be based around the storyline and fighting rather than struggling to get a better ship. In 2 months, won't the majority of players have battleships? |
M0RPHEUS
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Posted - 2003.06.29 11:45:00 -
[44]
no they wont - the battleships will be constantly destroyed in fights....it all will work out rather well, if CCP fixes the BP problem
Ask me nicely and I won't pod you... |
Main
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Posted - 2003.06.29 15:22:00 -
[45]
morpheus, what the heck is the point of calling a battleship a battleship if it takes 3 shots to destroy it, there isn't any, you can't even call it a fight or a battle, it was just a few shots.
I could of predicted and i was predicting these problems in beta, unfortunately ccp didn't. Battleships should of been extremely hard to get, not where every small corp and their dog have atleast six megathrons in their fleet.
And it takes 2 weeks to train for a battleship, 8 weeks of solid mining as part of a large corportion to get the blueprint, another 2 weeks to mine enough in a large cruiser and industrial ship to get enough to build one, a week to get all the large weapons and module capable of outfitting them but 2 seconds for it to be destroyed...
I definately agree with the guy who said about large weapons should be unable to hit small frigates very well, this would create the capability for a large fleet of small frigates to manage to outmanuveur a battleship and stand some chance of surviving. Large guns should be suited for one thing and one thing only, going after large ships not capable of taking out tiny little fighters darting about them.
Personally, i would love to see 8 large turrets on a ship take seconds not milli-seconds to actually rotate 360degrees i.e. takes 7 seconds for the battleship to lock on, then a further 5 - 10 seconds for the guns to actually move into the firing angle.
This would mean one thing, battleships will be pretty much nerfed when it comes to taking out cruisers and frigates and without a proper escort, they could stand a chance of maming a battleship. As it stands now and how it seems ccp wants them, battleships have 0 weaknesses. I say, there should be advantages and disadvantages to carrying huge guns.
Huge guns - lots of fire power with a refire rate of 10seconds, slow at gaining firing angle, huge range.
Smaller guns - not as much fire power with a refire rate much lower, of about 4 seconds, faster at gaining firing angle, smaller range.
Do you outfit your battleship with 8 huge turrets but a serious weakness against smaller ships, outfit it with smaller weapons with a weakness against larger ships with larger weapons or a mix of both?
edit: is there really any difference between 2 reapers attacking each other then with 2 armageddons attacking each other? Yes, the reapers would last longer.
Edited by: Main on 29/06/2003 15:26:08
Main
Everlasting Vendetta Veteran
Member of the Stain Alliance |
Jash Illian
|
Posted - 2003.06.29 15:46:00 -
[46]
People ask what bships should be but they don't really want to hear what they should be for. They want bships to remain 1 ship wrecking machines. But that's not an appropriate role in a game like this.
A Battleship should have 2 purposes:
1) Taking out other battleships
2) Causing damage to multiple enemies at once.
Swatting a frigate in a battleship with guns should be a matter of luck, regardless of the skill of the pilot. There is no way to convince me that a large bore weapon is capable of hitting a ship that's prolly about as big as the rounds used to load the weapon. They should stand a better chance at hitting a cruiser but not a tremendous one.
The important part though is them being capable of hitting multiple targets with their guns. In a battle with a bship involved the bship should be firing rounds that cause damage across wide areas. It should assume an artillery role with its guns at that point. If a battleship's weapons caused cruiser sized damage but did so to all ships in a 20-30km radius, I'd have no problems (unless of course I was stupid enough to be within the blast radius of my partner's guns).
The battleship should be a ship for destroying fleets. Allowing them to be capable of destroying individual ships as easily as a cruiser or frigate means there will never be any type of balance between the ship classes. And we'll all have to have battleships to have any role in a PvP fight.
Edited by: Jash Illian on 29/06/2003 15:47:30
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Main
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Posted - 2003.06.29 15:58:00 -
[47]
Well not really for taking out large fleets, more imposing the will of a corporation on a system and for taking out other battleships, stations and sentry guns.
Main
Everlasting Vendetta Veteran
Member of the Stain Alliance |
Jash Illian
|
Posted - 2003.06.29 16:12:00 -
[48]
<< Well not really for taking out large fleets, more imposing the will of a corporation on a system and for taking out other battleships, stations and sentry guns. >>
I don't agree. "Imposing the will of a corporation on a system" is what m0o did with their battleships and why we're in this mess now. If the power of a battleship was scaled down as I suggested, something has to be given back. The ability to destroy fleets would be appropriate. And assist in station defense/attack.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Master Scy
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Posted - 2003.06.29 16:38:00 -
[49]
I agree with Tassadar, give us battlecruisers!
-----------------------------
You think Marco Polo said
"Damn Mongolians were camping that cave entry into the next valley the entire day, you can't get friggin anywhere in the world with those damn griefer tribes all over the place" ?
-Indigo Seqi
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Main
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Posted - 2003.06.29 16:41:00 -
[50]
It depends how you mean by destroying a fleet? I would much prefer big guns for big ships against big ships rather than big guns for big ships against everything.
I feel the need for battleships to have an escort basically when taking out small frigates and fast cruisers.
Main
Everlasting Vendetta Veteran
Member of the Stain Alliance |
Main
|
Posted - 2003.06.29 16:43:00 -
[51]
Well, ccp could lower the armour slightly of the basic class battleships and raise their speed a bit, thus turning them into battlecruisers.
Main
Everlasting Vendetta Veteran
Member of the Stain Alliance |
Jash Illian
|
Posted - 2003.06.29 17:15:00 -
[52]
<< Maybe there could be a new ship class called oddly enough battlecruisers, anyone remember them they were designed to replace the dreadnoughts of WW1. They had the guns of a battleship but the armour of a cruiser to keep some speed. >>
People wouldn't use them to escape battleships. They'd use them to pound the crap out of other cruisers.
More guns or less armor doesn't solve anything. The base roles have to be redefined to balance effectively. Adding damage here, nerfing shield there, converting a slot here...None of that changes X ship being overwhelmingly more powerful than Y ship.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Tassadar Beta
|
Posted - 2003.06.29 18:16:00 -
[53]
Creating a class of ship that has more firepower than a cruiser but far less that a bb and also having less armour/shield hp than a bb , making it able to survive for far less time would in my opinion make the game more balanced. As you would have another class of ships, that cruisers can compete with and a class of ships that can compete with battleships.
No option is perfect, and this may create more problems than it solves, but I still think its a neat idea.
Edited by: Tassadar Beta on 29/06/2003 18:17:26
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Fusco T
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Posted - 2003.06.29 19:26:00 -
[54]
Some very good points here. I think one of the better points is turret speed and rate of fire vs speed and agility.
In RL what do we use to get rid of the faster moving targets? Ever tried to shoot down a plane with a 6inch artillery shell? It's impossible. They use missles and 2-4 barrelled 20mm anti aircraft that have rates of fire that would probably astonish people.
The math shouldn't be too hard either. Essentially the speed + manueverability of a ship vs the tracking speed AND rate of fire of a gun.
For those who boo hoo the idea of light ships taking out big ships. Anyone heard about the battle of midway?
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.06.29 20:25:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 13/02/2004 18:04:31
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Tehel Necrona
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Posted - 2003.06.29 20:46:00 -
[56]
bs's are fine, the world does not owe u a favour molly.
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Luther Pendragon
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Posted - 2003.06.29 22:05:00 -
[57]
Bships are meant to destroy ships.
Guns should specialize in what they are to kill.
Bship with many small guns can kill many frigates easily.
But Bship with many small guns wont be able to handle Bship equiped with big guns.
Think that would be the best method.
But otherwise CCPs original plan was to make Bships vulnerable to many small ships is going alone. Like many other things, dunno what happened, assume will be fixed in time :/
____________________________________
Taggart wants YOU. Join TTi!
*waves his hand in your face in the jedi way* |
Molly
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Posted - 2003.06.30 00:33:00 -
[58]
Tehel: "bs's are fine, the world does not owe u a favour molly".
Go and slap some works council members or labour unions people you Taggart slave.
A Brutor: A born fool.
---
"Molly > funny thing is, if they warn me for attacking in 1.0, why does a GM wish me luck doing so?
Jash Illian > perverse sense of humor?
Molly > lol
Jash Illian > honestly tho, because he prolly doesn't know bships" |
Main
|
Posted - 2003.06.30 11:19:00 -
[59]
Exactly luthor, it seems that ccp is having to "fix" many things though. Hopefully, everything will be as we want it in a few weeks and that will be that.
Main
Everlasting Vendetta Veteran
Member of the Stain Alliance |
XeQtR
|
Posted - 2003.06.30 11:45:00 -
[60]
"Exactly luthor, it seems that ccp is having to "fix" many things though. Hopefully, everything will be as we want it in a few weeks and that will be that."
Well, since everyone wants different things I'd say that won't happen. :)
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