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Ruhige Schmerz Valhalla Naval Corp IMPERIAL LEGI0N	Posted - 2010.09.23 22:29:00 - [181] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 23/09/2010 06:18:13 Originally by: Ruhige Schmerz This whole premise is self-contradictory. If CCP adds it, it becomes a game mechanic. No, it becomes an out-of-game mechanic, which is the whole problem. Quote: There must be a deeper reason why you're fond of this particular game mechanic. Not really. I just don't like the idea that you can pay cash to be absolved from bothersome parts of the game. Don't agree, probably never will. The out of game mechanic is buying PLEX in the first place (which I thought was a bad idea, and still do.) PLEX is an in-game item though, and anything you do with it, is an in-game mechanic.
Ruhige Schmerz Valhalla Naval Corp IMPERIAL LEGI0N	Posted - 2010.09.23 22:37:00 - [182] Originally by: Jenny Hawk It's an equilibrium as you can only buy as much plex in-game as are sold by CCP to players for RL money. So in the end CCP always gets the same amount of money and players all pay subscription This is where you are 100% wrong, and it's the premise from which the rest of what you say flows, which is why everything you've said thus far is wrong.
Barakkus Ishukone Institute of Technology	Posted - 2010.09.23 22:56:00 - [183] The ability for this mechanic to be use via $$ is about as useful as the micro transactions that have been brought into other games. EQ2 has some fluf crap you can purchase with $$ (based on buying "station cash") and it is about as useful as a remap would be. The time training saved is pretty insignificant from a remap you already get once a year, it's about on the level as spending $10 to change your portrait. The most someone would probably shave off training time in a year is about 30 days, which would amount to like 2.5 days a month, which really isn't a whole lot. It's much ado about nothing really. Originally by: CCP Dropbear rofl edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
Ruhige Schmerz Valhalla Naval Corp IMPERIAL LEGI0N	Posted - 2010.09.23 23:03:00 - [184] ITT: People who care more about their own misconceptions on how well regulated RMT, cash shops, AND micro-transactions work than they care about CCPs survival as a company. RMT has not ruined the game. Giving CCP $30 to remap every single day cannot possibly ruin the game. PLEX getting destroyed and NOT spent on game time is a VERY good thing for CCP, and thus, for all of us.
Nephyte Danovan Gallente	Posted - 2010.09.23 23:44:00 - [185] Meh, doubt even 1% of people saying they'd quit because of this would actually quit. It has very little to no effect on their gameplay - definitely not as much as actual in game events do anyways. Just a bunch of poor people who never developed good marketable skills or are still in the process of developing them upset that other people put in time and effort to make more money in real life then they did.
Bhattran	Posted - 2010.09.23 23:52:00 - [186] Originally by: Ruhige Schmerz ITT: People who care more about their own misconceptions on how well regulated RMT, cash shops, AND micro-transactions work than they care about CCPs survival as a company. RMT has not ruined the game. Giving CCP $30 to remap every single day cannot possibly ruin the game. PLEX getting destroyed and NOT spent on game time is a VERY good thing for CCP, and thus, for all of us. ^There someone who makes generalizations about people and arguments they don't understand or disagree with, as well as not having the facts. The remap option is a PLEX one of 2 that are generated when purchasing them with $ which costs $34.95 US Dollars. PLEX getting destroyed and NOT spent on game time is A FINANCIALLY 'good' thing for CCP not necessarily for EVE's future, nor for us all. -------------------------------------------------------------- Fanboys would make great cult members.
Portmanteau CTRL-Q	Posted - 2010.09.24 06:59:00 - [187] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Portmanteau I actually fall into the "can afford" group and I do know how to grind, you have just either completely missed my point or are just glossing over it because ur wrong. You cannot deny that ppl in low paid full time work are already getting screwed and will be even more screwed when they can't keep up with the unemployed and the well paid when they start buying remaps every couple of months No, you're just being dense because you want to make a point that isn't valid and doesn't matter. I too fall into the 'can afford' - at least once a year or so. Simply put, what one's real life job is has no effect at all on the fact that these remaps can, and will be, bought with ISK. -Liang Stop being so obtuse, the isk these remaps may be bought with will have either been farmed by people with an abundance of time or bought by people with an abundance of RL cash, those with a shortage of both, ie. the full time employed on low wages or with great financial responsibilities like families, will lose out, you can't gloss over that. One's access to RL cash or RL time WILL have an affect on how many plexes and hence remaps one can afford.
ChildOfTheMind	Posted - 2010.09.24 10:06:00 - [188] Originally by: Liang Nuren I'm on a pure perc/wil remap right now and get about 500 SP/hr from it from when I wasn't remapped. So if someone were to remap every time they changed skills, they'd be limited to ~4M SP/year gain over me. Big freaking whoop. -Liang But aren't you missing a factor with this statement? Your only looking at the gain with the optimal remap for the skills in question. Current situation is likely a remap that does enhance a skill set for a given primary/secondary requirement, but it must also hamper the others, especially so for newer pilots that have too broad a range of skills to achieve which can be deemed as core. What is the lose number? This should then be added to your derived 4m SP a year gain. I would call that significant
CyberGh0st Minmatar Ara Veritas	Posted - 2010.09.24 10:48:00 - [189] Edited by: CyberGh0st on 24/09/2010 10:54:25 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Stuff Actually the very first feeler was the possibility to destroy plex in pvp. I can agree that CCP will not immediatly open the floodgates of cash shop after they implemented remaps for plex, still my personal opinion is that a cash shop does not belong in an mmo with a monthly fee. Furthermore GTC's where introduced to aid the fight against illegal RMT, because the demand is there, CCP thought rightfully so that it is better to facilitate this in a regulated way, which alsos increase their own revenue ( by keeping people that pay the game with isk who would otherwise leave ). Why do you still use the argument that we can buy everything we wan't with gtc/plex? No one says that is not true. The difference with plex for remaps is however, that the wealth is getting injected into the game as opposed to being redistributed. It is a fundamental difference, but the pro remap for plex camp keeps talking around it. And uhm buying a Plex for RL cash from CCP, then selling this Plex to another player for ISK is RMT, the legal and regulated by CCP kind tho. So to sums thins up : - The current Plex system the following characteristics : It is Regulated Real Money Trade ( RMT ) between players facilitated by CCP. It does not inject wealth into the game, it only redistributes the wealth between the players. It normally does not give CCP additional income beyond the Monthly fee, however it keeps some players that may have otherwise quit. It may give CCP additional income if people decide they want to risk the Plex by transporting it ( which is unnessecary ) and it gets destroyed. To be completely honest, there is already a form of ingame microtransaction : the "portrait swap" for 10Ç ( and I don't like that either ), this is however very superficial and has little gameplay impact ( you even have to load the portraits ingame before you can see them ). - The possible new system of using Plex for Neural remaps has the following characteristics : It is a form of Microtransaction ( if you like to call it a Cash shop or Macrotransaction, that is fine as well ), where you buy a package of ingame wealth, directly from CCP. It injects ingame wealth ( here in the form of more SP's / more flexibility ) into the game. The collective playerbase will pay the remaps in addition to the monthly subscription, so overal the game becomes more expensive and is no longer limited to the monthly subscription but becomes a monthly subscription + paying for ingame perks. - My stance is that I am against a cash shop when already paying for a monthly fee. If people are comfortable with the idea of a cash shop in addition to a monthly fee, than that is your prerogative. I can also understand the argument that neural remaps are not gamebreaking and thus paying RL cash for them is not that big of a deal, but to me character portrait swap and the abilty to destroy plexes are already a big deal and I don't want neural remaps on top of that. http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.09.24 11:02:00 - [190] Originally by: Templar Dane People crying about this topic are people who can't afford to pay directly for their subscription. Get a job. This. I think it's a quality idea. The pawpers will whine, however. Suggestion: Remove the "new topic" button from everywhere apart from the list of topics section within a subforum. That'd save those with chronic hand/eye coordination some face.

Cupio Mortem	Posted - 2010.09.24 11:09:00 - [191] Originally by: CyberGh0st .... but to me character portrait swap and the abilty to destroy plexes are already a big deal and I don't want neural remaps on top of that. Then, please, for the love of god, when this happens (and it will as the SANE masses see it as a logical "next step" in the evolution of Eve's mechanics), give me all your stuff. THANK YOOOOU.
CyberGh0st Minmatar Ara Veritas	Posted - 2010.09.24 11:19:00 - [192] Edited by: CyberGh0st on 24/09/2010 11:22:54 Originally by: Cupio Mortem Originally by: CyberGh0st .... but to me character portrait swap and the abilty to destroy plexes are already a big deal and I don't want neural remaps on top of that. Then, please, for the love of god, when this happens (and it will as the SANE masses see it as a logical "next step" in the evolution of Eve's mechanics), give me all your stuff. THANK YOOOOU. Frist of all, looking at this proposal I don't believe that the sane masses see it is a logical "next step", on the contrary. Secondly, when I disagree with a change in vision from CCP and try to express my concerns in order to change their mind, I have to quit and give my stuff to you hmm ... Lastly, I promise you, if I ever quit, my stuff will be in good hands http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE
Cupio Mortem	Posted - 2010.09.24 11:23:00 - [193] Originally by: CyberGh0st Frist of all, looking at this proposal I don't believe that the sane masses see it is a logical "next step", on the contrary. Secondly, when I disagree with a change in vision from CCP and try to express my concerns in order to change their mind, I have to quit and give my stuff to you hmm ... I promise you, if I ever quit, my stuff will be in good hands Silly rabbit...roleplayers hate everything! 90% of forum posters are RP-friendly, 10% are trolls who use logic and support CCP making money, oh...and have jobs.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.24 12:26:00 - [194] Originally by: Chesty McJubblies Originally by: Rodj Blake Anything which allows players to use RL cash to acquire an in-game advantage is in my opinion a bad idea. ie the PLEX system. Has that turned out that bad? The PLEX system allows players a legitimate method of doing what they could do via ISK sellers. That's about the best justification for it: that CCP and therefore EVE at least get some benefit from it. I'm not aware of any illicit methods of getting a remap that CCP needs to provide an alternative method to compete with. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Lemmy Kravitz	Posted - 2010.09.24 13:05:00 - [195] Edited by: Lemmy Kravitz on 24/09/2010 13:15:30 I have a problem with Remapping for either plex or isk. be happy with the once a year remap. isk for plex is fine. adding more things to buy with plex will only further increase the cost of plex for isk. Which in a way I don't mind depending on what things they are talking about buying with plex. Like I would have no problem with plex for evestore stuff like the ship models and things like that. or plex for character transfer and other Out of Game functions. In game plex for something need to be reviewed carefully. otherwise we'll suddenly wake up and wonder why a 6month old character is running around with the SP, ship, and modules of ultimate pwnage. Plex for isk by and far has been an amazing model which i believe alot of MMORPG's should adopt. Rather than money being given to the Chinese gold farmers it's goes to a company I have no problem supporting cause the money made will eventually be invested back into the game I play.
Ruhige Schmerz Valhalla Naval Corp IMPERIAL LEGI0N	Posted - 2010.09.24 14:51:00 - [196] Originally by: CyberGh0st Edited by: CyberGh0st on 24/09/2010 10:54:25 Why do you still use the argument that we can buy everything we wan't with gtc/plex? No one says that is not true. The difference with plex for remaps is however, that the wealth is getting injected into the game as opposed to being redistributed. It is a fundamental difference, but the pro remap for plex camp keeps talking around it. Because you consider a remap to be wealth being injected but don't consider plex to be wealth being injected. It's an arbitrary distinction, and a poor one. In either case, you're paying cash to get some sort of in-game "product or service." Many people consider game time to be an extremely valuable product, and if you don't agree, ask a character that's in stasis because his player can't afford to pay. Quote: It normally does not give CCP additional income beyond the Monthly fee, however it keeps some players that may have otherwise quit. This is incorrect. PLEX supply exceeds demand, and PLEX costs more than a subscription. CCP is getting more income every month than they would without PLEX, and you can be sure they are spending all or most of it. That is my major problem with it. Quote: My stance is that I am against a cash shop when already paying for a monthly fee. Many of us, obviously aren't. Either entirely, or so long as the game impact is kept relatively minor. A remap is indeed extremely minor.
Barakkus Caelestis Iudicium	Posted - 2010.09.24 15:01:00 - [197] y'all realize you can just go buy some GTCs for $$ and sell them, then take the isk and buy pre-trained characters right? I think this pales in comparison. Originally by: CCP Dropbear rofl edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
Azia Khanid Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2010.09.25 03:42:00 - [198] Originally by: Barakkus y'all realize you can just go buy some GTCs for $$ and sell them, then take the isk and buy pre-trained characters right? I think this pales in comparison. The same way you can you buy an officer fitted Bhaalgorn, with $ for isk. Personally, I'm more concerned about people GTCing faction battleships and 50mil SP characters than I am about someone on average training 8% faster than me (if they can't keep to a single skillplan). The only group this really has a significant effect on is new players vs new players, but since the new guy could have just bought a character with plex for isk anyway, I don't see it being more a problem. Buying characters and faction battleships with your plexes actually helps veterans though, making your own skillplan more efficient or tidying up that mistake you made is hurting daddys character farm.... SO ITS OUTRAGEOUS, ~RMT~, CASHSHOPS, WTF CCP, <InsertBuzzwordIDon'tUnderstandWhatMeansHere> Essentially, it's about veterans wanting to keep farming character sales profitable. ---
Shaalira D'arc	Posted - 2010.09.25 08:35:00 - [199] While I'm ambivalent about this topic, I don't see the logic in the position that a Remap for Isk is fine while a Remap for PLEX is not. Permitting a remap for isk is essentially the same thing as permitting a remap for PLEX - you've just added an extra transaction for people who want to use PLEX to remap their characters. To an extent, micro-transactions already exist. Anything that can be bought with isk can be bought with RL money, using PLEX as the intermediary. I'm curious to hear why this particular microtransaction is more dangerous than permitting people to buy powerful ships and modules with RL money - something which leads to a much more direct and immediate game advantage than reshuffling attributes around.
Bunzan Cardinal The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2010.09.25 08:43:00 - [200] Edited by: Bunzan Cardinal on 25/09/2010 08:44:28 simple fix for all the outrage.... instead of making the remap cost a plex, make it cost 400mil. BAM Problem solved. Oh .. seems like i was late. Couldnt make it through the 7 pages of torches and pitchforks.

Bhattran	Posted - 2010.09.25 11:04:00 - [201] [Azia] It isn't about wanting to maintain a character farm, skill remaps will decrease the time to make a character to be sold as you can spec them for exactly what you want to sell them for sooner, this makes cheap 'specialized' characters easier to buy as they are cheaper than the lumbering 'beast' of a character that has trained XYZ because it was someone's main to do it all. If I were farming characters this might help my farming business. I'd have to check the numbers with how easily I make enough isk to get PLEX vs how long it takes to get a character ready for sale(price of said character) along with if a 3-6month subscription is 'easier' while doing more than the 2 free remaps. [Shaalira] You are correct any remap for ISK or PLEX is still bad as either one is aqcuired through RMT and yes when you give CCP real money and get something more than the ability to play their game it is RMT. That so many cry out RMT is illegal and what not just show how they have bought into CCP's stance on 'legal' in a virtual world. Evident by this and other threads people still don't get that. If you read this thread or the others you'd see the argument is that this is an 'advantage' that isn't available normally and only through the use of PLEX (AKA ISK which can be bought through PLEX sales for real money) above your normal yearly remap or 2 remaps for a new character. It says if you pay for it you can have it, yes PLEX does this but because it at least puts $ in CCP's hands and not some 3rd party who abuses CCP's product, possibly hacking player accounts, and pushing for 'creating' more isk than players are willing to 'create' themselves it serves some redeeming purpose. PLEX with CCP just transfers isk from one player to another when they are sold, the 3rd party RMT force the 3rd party to get isk artificially by farming it as the players aren't interested in doing themselves 23/7, mining, mission running, etc or stealing it from player's accounts, the 3rd party needs to acquire billions if not trillions to sell effectively. This change allows the very real possibility that CCP will find other ways to make PLEX and therefore RMT get you things you can't get with isk or normally through mechanics, somethings I tossed out are changing your name, changing your employment history, and if we get creative we could say they might let people who pay get an extra skill hardwiring slot to put any skill implant in, pay to get a million SP tacked on your character, etc. It is worse because there is no way a 3rd party can compete with CCP on those things, thus there is no need for it, OTHER than CCP's motivation to make more money. If you see that, and I can't see how people miss it, then the question comes to be, well why stop there? Why NOT offer more services only CCP can give, it could be very lucrative, and that is where game breaking changes can happen. That a company decides to make more money can be a bad thing from firing the senior/expensive employees to cutting back on product quality and so on it happens all the time and the trend is one that often forces competitors out of business if they fail to keep up with the never ending mantra 'if you aren't growing you're dying'. A drive to be more lucrative in a product can have changes that range from selling extra services that make the game crap, toss enough money at it and you are uber l33t, to cutting back on development, oh it could be take that extra money and reinvest it in the product but IF you ruin it with artificially building up characters based on the size of your wallet will it still be the same game, will people who've played for years still want to bother, I know I won't. Profits are a great motivator but that motivation can and does change what you do to make the profits and not all of it leaves you with the superior product sometimes you just end up with the one that sells best or costs the least to make. TLDR: Mmmm Pie. -------------------------------------------------------------- Fanboys would make great cult members.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.09.25 11:23:00 - [202] Originally by: Shaalira D'arc I don't see the logic in the position that a Remap for Isk is fine while a Remap for PLEX is not. Neither is fine. Quote: I'm curious to hear why this particular microtransaction is more dangerous than permitting people to buy powerful ships and modules with RL money - something which leads to a much more direct and immediate game advantage than reshuffling attributes around. What transactions current exist still adhere to the game mechanics and to the balancing that goes into those mechanics; what's being proposed is something that, on demand, bypasses game mechanics and balancing. Consider the difference between buying a CNR off the market, and having CCP just spawn one in your hangar ù in the latter case, you've completely skipped (and thus ignored and negatively affected the balance of) the mechanics that deal with mineral gathering, BPO purchases and research; ship building; the LP store itself and the ISK, LP and tag gathering it relies on; and the entire marketà Buying your way out of the mechanics that deal with attributes might not be on quite the same scale, as far as screwing over the game goes, but it's still a matter paying for not having the game mechanics matter to you. For those who are willing to pay, your attributes no longer matter because you can always have the best ones for what you want to train ù effectively, they cease to exist as a game mechanic. That alone is why it's a bad thing; the fact that they cease to exist only for those willing to pay makes it even worse. The payment method doesn't particularly affect how bad it is. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2010.09.25 13:28:00 - [203] Originally by: Tippia Consider the difference between buying a CNR off the market, and having CCP just spawn one in your hangar By that comparison, you'd think that purchasing a neural remap was akin to buying SP. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel]
Zeke Mobius	Posted - 2010.09.25 14:54:00 - [204] ccp caters to the elitists and rich snobbish types that would love to have more ways for eve to get the cash and i dont mean the userbase
Serrad Trenn Amarr	Posted - 2010.09.25 16:33:00 - [205] Edited by: Serrad Trenn on 25/09/2010 16:35:12 Originally by: ChildOfTheMind Originally by: Liang Nuren I'm on a pure perc/wil remap right now and get about 500 SP/hr from it from when I wasn't remapped. So if someone were to remap every time they changed skills, they'd be limited to ~4M SP/year gain over me. Big freaking whoop. -Liang But aren't you missing a factor with this statement? Your only looking at the gain with the optimal remap for the skills in question. Current situation is likely a remap that does enhance a skill set for a given primary/secondary requirement, but it must also hamper the others, especially so for newer pilots that have too broad a range of skills to achieve which can be deemed as core. What is the lose number? This should then be added to your derived 4m SP a year gain. I would call that significant As far as I understood, Liang meant to say the advantage of a pure perc/wil attribute distribution over a distribution without perc/wil is about 500 SP/hr (given you train perc/wil skills) (Edit: perc/wil in this case is an example for "perfect attribute distribution for skills in training"). Any "mixed" attribute distribution you suggest as "current situation" would have more (or at least equal as many) points in perc/wil as the one which doesn't have any. So the difference between pure perc/wil and these mixed attribute distributions would be those 500 SP/hr at most, likely less than that. So you shouldn't add anything to those 4m SP a year, but rather subtract. Unless I didn't understand something here.
Jan Forjeu	Posted - 2010.09.26 02:18:00 - [206] Edited by: Jan Forjeu on 26/09/2010 02:23:51 Originally by: Cupio Mortem Originally by: CyberGh0st Frist of all, looking at this proposal I don't believe that the sane masses see it is a logical "next step", on the contrary. Secondly, when I disagree with a change in vision from CCP and try to express my concerns in order to change their mind, I have to quit and give my stuff to you hmm ... I promise you, if I ever quit, my stuff will be in good hands Silly rabbit...roleplayers hate everything! 90% of forum posters are RP-friendly, 10% are trolls who use logic and support CCP making money, oh...and have jobs. That's kinda funny cuz everytime you poast my sarcasm of how idiocity is everywhere gets confirmed a little bit more.
Irae Ragwan	Posted - 2010.09.26 03:13:00 - [207] I fail to see how expanding PLEX use hurts anyone but the idiots who are already PLEXing 12 accounts with isk they farm from anoms. Newsflash: Having a bunch of alts to train diffirent things at once is essentially the same process, you're sending CCP more of your money (or farming more isk so others pay more money) so that you can train more things in a given amount of real-time. EVE changes, HTFU and adapt.
Fyrr Deerdan Caldari Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2010.09.26 04:09:00 - [208] Originally by: mechtech The problem in my eyes is that this is an obvious way for CCP to increase PLEX demand vs improving the game. Instead of using PLEX, I think neural remaps should be produced through existing in game systems. For example, why not use PI goods to manufacture neural remaps? Or why not have neural remaps as part of the incursion rewards, or high level wormhole rewards? PLEX for remaps is a tiny, insignificant change for the most part, but it's a step in the wrong direction in regards to PLEX. I say keep PLEX for game time and nothing else. I just think it's odd that neural remaps aren't part of the existing manufacturing framework of eve-online. That's the way I'd rather see it. +1 ½It was like walking into a bear cave in the middle of winter and popping off a few rounds for lols then sticking around to see if you get eaten or not. Well ladies, we got eaten.+ -Bobby Atlas
Yavanna Akallabeth	Posted - 2010.09.26 05:10:00 - [209] Originally by: Cyrus Doul Edited by: Cyrus Doul on 22/09/2010 13:37:18 For all you nubs complaining that plex should only be for getting isk from someone who wants to give you 300 million to play for another month without having to pay with cc or whatever. Plex= 300 million from player buying Remap = 300 million ISK sink, no other way to pay ???? Plex = 300 million = remap Plex = remap LOL This!
Fail Fit	Posted - 2010.09.26 06:17:00 - [210] I can't help but laugh at all you people saying this is bad. This is very good in fact. The bottom line is this: In the real world there are those that don't work that hard at life and expect everything to be handed to them on a silver player. Then there are those people like me who bust their ass and works hard to be successful. I have money and like to buy nice things. Should I be punished because the average sucker thinks he should get the same stuff without working for it? Hell no! I fly first class and drive cars that cost more than you make in ten years for a reason. To distinguish the fact that I work hard. I should not be grouped up with people that drive some Ford piece of crap. I worked hard and he didn't. This same distinction should be available in games too. I should be allowed to better character than that guy who is content flipping burgers for a living ffs. This is life and this game is a cold and harsh universe so work harder and HTFU already.



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