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Kate McCann
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Posted - 2010.09.21 22:15:00 -
[1]
So, as you may or may not no, there is currently a 'plex for attribute remap' feature currently on SiSi for testing, this has sparked a lot of outrage.
I personally am neutral on the subject, however, it seems a lot of players here think it's going to spark into some full blown RMT/Micro transaction, buy SP with $ micro transaction nonsensical idiocy.
1. Remapping DOES NOT create SP. It only allows someone to train a different category of skills at the optimal rate, this means they are more flexible with their skill training, THEY DO NOT TRAIN SKILLS FASTER THAN YOU.
2. You can already buy characters with isk/$
3. you can already buy ships/modules with isk/$
4. ^ above things can already give a player an advantage with isk.
5. Plex for Remap is unlikely to even effect RMT, and if anything, PLEX demand goes up, which means in a reverse transaction, selling ingame goods for isk, means YOU GET LESS $ PER ISK FOR PLEX.
I expect this to be rode down by bandwagonning fanboyz, bitter veterans, and people who are currently farming and selling characters, oh well. As previously said, I don't really mind if it's implemented or not, I just think the sheer idioicy, and lack of sensible arguments from the Anti-PLEX for Remap crowd is staggering.
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mechtech
SRS Industries
SRS.
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Posted - 2010.09.21 22:30:00 -
[2]
The problem in my eyes is that this is an obvious way for CCP to increase PLEX demand vs improving the game.
Instead of using PLEX, I think neural remaps should be produced through existing in game systems. For example, why not use PI goods to manufacture neural remaps? Or why not have neural remaps as part of the incursion rewards, or high level wormhole rewards?
PLEX for remaps is a tiny, insignificant change for the most part, but it's a step in the wrong direction in regards to PLEX. I say keep PLEX for game time and nothing else.
I just think it's odd that neural remaps aren't part of the existing manufacturing framework of eve-online. That's the way I'd rather see it.
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.09.21 22:32:00 -
[3]
I was initially on the fence, but there is reason to the outrage beyond the fear that this will lead to microtransactions in eve.
Right now - plex is nothing but gametime. Plex was introduced to allow people who are too poor to pay to play, and those who don't have the time to grind to get ISK legitmately. Plex = subscription transfer, nothing more.
However - plex (and nothing but plex) for remapping has crossed that fine line. No longer is plex merely a subscription transfer, plex has become a micro-transaction tool. All plexes must be bought with real life money, so the argument that they can also be bought with ISK is moot.
If CCP want to do this - they should introduce an ISK fee, nothing more. Whether or not we can buy plexes with ISK from other people who bought them with RL cash, it does not change the fact that speedier plex remapping can only be created via a microtransaction.
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Axemaster
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Posted - 2010.09.21 22:38:00 -
[4]
Yeah I agree, PLEX should not be extended beyond their current role (which is already HUGE imo).
A microtransactions/cash shop would be disasterous.
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Umino Iruka
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Posted - 2010.09.21 22:39:00 -
[5]
chatgris maybe your right about this but think of things this way.. CCP allready remove the restriction with the plexes so that they become "normal" comodity's. If its ISK or PLEX it really dont matter anyways for meh. I`m viewing EvE as a "GAME" but seems training in it takes so LONG so lets be resonable here... every company needs money and i guess they have a department working with these kind of stuff. 
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Spurty
Caldari
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2010.09.21 22:49:00 -
[6]
if its making players cry like little girls who lost the heads of their barbies, I'm all for it.
Must be the right thing to do.
+100 from me for this feature.
Reminds me, must set up alt for leadership skill maximization. Born into life with 3 charisma makes for a rough leadership training regime
Yelp!
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Umega
Solis Mensa
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Posted - 2010.09.21 22:53:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: mechtech
The problem in my eyes is that this is an obvious way for CCP to increase PLEX demand vs improving the game.
I'm still on the fence on the matter.. but I just had to point out a flaw with this sort of reasoning in that sentence. If they increase PLEX demand, they are going to make more money via their sales.. which is probably their intention in the first place. That money is then used to hire more programmers, devs, yada-yada to help work and fix EVE.. and hell, whatever they want, it IS THEIR money now. So to say it is counter productive to development of EVE is a bit off, in my eyes.
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-Treat the EVE Market like you're a pimp and it is your 'employee'.. freely fondle it as you wish and make it pay you for it- |
Roland Smithe
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Posted - 2010.09.21 22:57:00 -
[8]
simply put they are trying to make more cash for the game and more cash means less chance of the game being canned. if it adds 2 or 3 years more life to whatever life this game is going to have am all for it.
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Ringo Jeicha
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.09.21 23:00:00 -
[9]
1. Remapping DOES NOT create SP. It only allows someone to train a different category of skills at the optimal rate, this means they are more flexible with their skill training, THEY DO NOT TRAIN SKILLS FASTER THAN YOU. <-- actually they do in the short run.
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Braaaiiinnnsssssssssss |
Zagdul
Gallente
Shadowed Command
Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.09.21 23:16:00 -
[10]
I love the mob mentality going on in the threads you posted.
"OMG CASH STORE n' I QUIT!"
EVE is a giant cash store. Has been since GTC's were added.
I personally am for the PLEX for remap. So, lets say I wanna train skills for a month I can go to the market, buy a PLEX for (300isk?) and remap.
Go for it. ISK is easy to make in EVE.
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Roland Smithe
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Posted - 2010.09.21 23:19:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Ringo Jeicha
1. Remapping DOES NOT create SP. It only allows someone to train a different category of skills at the optimal rate, this means they are more flexible with their skill training, THEY DO NOT TRAIN SKILLS FASTER THAN YOU. <-- actually they do in the short run.
so say your training galente battleship from 4 to 5 and have remapped your skills for it with your yearly remap and someone else is training the same skill but has used isk to remap for it which one of you (without implants) trains the skill faster?
i believe the answer is you both train equaly.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.09.21 23:22:00 -
[12]
Originally by: chatgris
All plexes must be bought with real life money, so the argument that they can also be bought with ISK is moot.
No it isn't. All the arguments related to that revolve around some "privileged person" spending a ton of RL $$ and getting a bunch of "free remaps". But the argument can equally be turned around and made into some lame ass lowlife with no job and too much time grinding up ISK for a bunch of "free remaps".
I see nothing wrong with it, because PLEX represents potential service when redeemed. Right now that service is strictly game time, but I'm all for it being anything else as long as I can continue to buy them with ISK.
-Liang
--
Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
Blog
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
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Posted - 2010.09.21 23:25:00 -
[13]
Did anyone think that this is a good way to make it a requirement to move plexs around in space other then to be stupid 
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2010.09.21 23:26:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Roland Smithe
means less chance of the game being canned.
I hear MMOS which gain more subscribers every single month are the ones that get canned first
EVE and CCP is doing ****ing fine. They don't share the revenue with a publisher or anyone else, like most MMO companies.
Not only can they afford offices around the globe and have more than 50% of their staff working on something else than their only revenue stream; they're also funding the development of two new MMOs. All on their own dime.
EVE isn't going anywhere, it's a damn cashcow and if you try and milk it too much, it will cause a reaction.
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Ethum2
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Posted - 2010.09.21 23:26:00 -
[15]
Liang your right .. i dont understand the people's reaction that this stuff is such a BAD thing. I mean lets face it ... u see diverse topics on the forums "2 more years then i can really play EvE". I mean this had to be change in time. Deal with it and move on 
/me hugs Liang 
asd |
Monte Shill
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Posted - 2010.09.21 23:31:00 -
[16]
I am all for this feature, I only really need one additional remap for an alt after the second freebie one and it could cut a month or more off the training time for cruiser sized ships I am content, its pretty useless right now beyond being used as a salvager alt right now. Everyone is blowing the idea for plex remapping out of proportion because *GASP! WALLS IMPLODE!* its micro-transactions for CCP! GET THE PICHFORK, TAR, AND TORCHES AS WE NEED TO BURN THE HERETICS! CCP can implement a system for remapping with a plex (or two plex? remap resets yearly date and you can only consume a purchased remap once a year?) that will make all you die-hard haters happy. Hell, you can already buy a year of game time for about 3.5 billion isk and its super easy to get if your smart. CCP doesn't want to loose the subscription income and have to start relying on PLEX charges as an income (which is already a micro-transaction to securely transfer isk for game time you dolts!)
And for all the haters that still think remapping more often is bad, I think most characters started around Apocrypha are only on their third remap remap about now assuming one was used first day of creation and the second used within a few months after that. And its not like remapping more often hurts all you old fart veterans, you already have more SP to the point you don't really need to purchase a remap and this is a way for CCP to help improve the new player experience which in turn provides you with more targets that are not 3 week newbs who wandered into null/low.
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Bhattran
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Posted - 2010.09.21 23:41:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Kate McCann
So, as you may or may not no, there is currently a 'plex for attribute remap' feature currently on SiSi for testing, this has sparked a lot of outrage.
I personally am neutral on the subject, however, it seems a lot of players here think it's going to spark into some full blown RMT/Micro transaction, buy SP with $ micro transaction nonsensical idiocy.
1. Remapping DOES NOT create SP. It only allows someone to train a different category of skills at the optimal rate, this means they are more flexible with their skill training, THEY DO NOT TRAIN SKILLS FASTER THAN YOU.
2. You can already buy characters with isk/$
3. you can already buy ships/modules with isk/$
4. ^ above things can already give a player an advantage with isk.
5. Plex for Remap is unlikely to even effect RMT, and if anything, PLEX demand goes up, which means in a reverse transaction, selling ingame goods for isk, means YOU GET LESS $ PER ISK FOR PLEX.
I expect this to be rode down by bandwagonning fanboyz, bitter veterans, and people who are currently farming and selling characters, oh well. As previously said, I don't really mind if it's implemented or not, I just think the sheer idioicy, and lack of sensible arguments from the Anti-PLEX for Remap crowd is staggering.
It could, CCP has shown they are willing to take player's cash because players are willing to hand it over for game 'things' like money, characters, swapping pictures, they've also expressed interest in paying to change their names, training multiple characters, buying ingame items, etc. Why WOULDN'T CCP let all those things happen? They are fine taking player money because if they don't RMT sellers will, why should they lose out on that cash that their players want to spend?
I'm against character sales, I only 'tacitly' approve of plex because the alternative is players buy isk from RMT sellers and that gives those companies the monopoly on providing game 'items' isk/ships/whatever to players meaning more macroing, more account hacking etc. Where the demand is great enough people will work to meet it, the easier it is to pull off even more-so.
Expanding the Plex to other things and even taking $ for game crap is an easy road to make $ off of it so I don't see why once CCP sees that yes allowing people to redeem plex for things/remaps gets some plex out of the game and thus spurs more plex sales why not continue to do that? Ultimately Plex = $ spent by players to make the damn things, it doesn't matter if you made the isk duping people out of the isk they got from selling a plex or from ratting or moon goo, all the plex in game presumably had to be bought with $ outside the game to be available in game for isk (unless CCP seeded some).
Allowing plex to be used for other game things just facilitates more plex usage, and ultimately more purchasing of plex as they get used up, which is fine and great if your aim is to increase plex sales. Even people who want to spend isk for account services are still 'helping' plex sales as not all players will get their isk from the game(ratting/missions etc) but through sales of PLEX or through the transfer of funds from plex sales.
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Fanboys would make great cult members. |
Alpheias
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Posted - 2010.09.22 00:08:00 -
[18]
I'd be all for using PLEX if it meant that I could use it to inflict bodily harm onto all of you. |
Marak Mocam
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Posted - 2010.09.22 00:22:00 -
[19]
Buying another remap? No problem with that idea here but for ISK; *NOT* PLEX.
PLEX = Pilot License Extension. Not Pilot attribute remapping nor SP remapping nor anything else. Put a service in the game that'll sell a remap and let the player decide if they get PLEX to fund it or not but don't put in a real-world conversion mechanism to BUY functions in the game like this.
It is a slippery slope and it is redefining an item for different uses than it was put into the game for. If they use it for this, then rename it to something like "Currency Exchange Token" or what not. Something to avoid any confusion on what it is intended for and the progression of "available purchase options" that will come after this one.
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Karaya Yi
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Posted - 2010.09.22 00:29:00 -
[20]
Bring it on, people can already gain a massive advantage via being able to purchase isk anyway, what's allowing people to remap more often really gonna do to anyone else.
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Harsh Mistress
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Posted - 2010.09.22 00:45:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Harsh Mistress on 22/09/2010 00:47:57
Originally by: Kate McCann
I personally am neutral on the subject, however, it seems a lot of players here think it's going to spark into some full blown RMT/Micro transaction, buy SP with $ micro transaction nonsensical idiocy.
A lot of them have a point actually. See below.
Quote:
1. Remapping DOES NOT create SP. It only allows someone to train a different category of skills at the optimal rate, this means they are more flexible with their skill training, THEY DO NOT TRAIN SKILLS FASTER THAN YOU.
While you are technically right saying that "they do not train skills faster", you might also consider the fact that they are indeed achieving a goal of having particular skill set faster. Example - to fly a Minmatar battleship you would need the skills from Spaceship Command category, from Gunnery and also support skills which are normally Int/Mem based (unlike Spaceship Command group or Gunnery). Now take a person who cannot remap and trains all the required groups with the same attributes and compare it with someone able to max out Perc/Will, train ship skills, then max out Int/Mem and train supporting skills. Who would be sitting in the said battleship with a proper skillset earlier?
Quote:
2. You can already buy characters with isk/$
3. you can already buy ships/modules with isk/$
4. ^ above things can already give a player an advantage with isk.
2. Gives an advantage to the account owner maybe but not to the character as such.
3. Does not give skills advantage to the character either.
Quote:
I expect this to be rode down by bandwagonning fanboyz, bitter veterans, and people who are currently farming and selling characters, oh well.
Well, I'm not bitter, but I do believe people have a point regarding that this is not some positive change. Though it would be probably very attractive to players willing to "get lvl 60 in a week" or something. :) Also calling people having different opinion idiots, fanboyz and farmers sort of contradicts your neutrality statement.
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Moriel Damodred
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2010.09.22 00:52:00 -
[22]
Remaps dont change your skill training queue so vastly that its going to let anyone doin anything In A Week. more like
A few days sooner.
Everyone else had a sig and i felt lonly :( |
Azia Khanid
Amarr
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2010.09.22 12:48:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Karaya Yi
Bring it on, people can already gain a massive advantage via being able to purchase isk anyway, what's allowing people to remap more often really gonna do to anyone else.
It'll be a pretty decent buff to new characters, and character creation, not so much old players who already have trained the majority of core essential skills, which can afford to stay int/mem or per/wil for longer period of times to max out their skills. Majority of the people against it are mostly in NPC corps, so I think it ****es off veterans when new features benefit new players more than them, and also, more versatile skill training means isk/sp value probably goes down on purchasing characters, which also ****es off veteran character farmers.
I've yet to see anyone address a legitimate concern against this, that isn't a strawman argument, or made by someone in a NPC corp for 3 years and has 0.0 security and 0 standings, guess why.
---
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.09.22 12:56:00 -
[24]
Same answer here as in every other thread on the topic: I couldn't care less about the fact that it deals with SP ù what makes me annoyed/worried is that it essentially lets you buy your way out of adhering to game mechanics.
"Hey, CCP ù this attribute thingy you've got going with your characters, it bugs me!"
"Pay up, and you no longer have to worry!"
It makes SFA difference what mechanic you can avoid by paying for it; the idea that you'd be able to do it at all is abhorrent to begin with.
ànow, how many PLEXes do I have to buy to no longer have to care about this annoying warp scrambling mechanic? 
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.09.22 13:00:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 22/09/2010 13:03:00
"I need to make ISK to buy this HAC"
"Here sell a PLEX, now you dont need to make ISK"
"I need skills to fly ship X"
"Here sell some PLEXes and buy a char which can fly ship X"
Aditional remaps have a far smaller effect than what is already available, RMT (plex for ISK) and character sales.
If anything it actually reduces the amount of IRL money you need to spend to stay competitive. Since those who spend alot have alts and due to that train effectively way faster. This allows especially new people to train at the same speed as those alts can train.
And no alts wont train faster due to this since they can use way more optimized skill plans than you can use on a (new) main char.
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Torveln
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Posted - 2010.09.22 13:04:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Torveln on 22/09/2010 13:04:30
Originally by: Azia Khanid
I think it ****es off veterans when new features benefit new players more than them
Totally not like they had the T2 BPO lottery in the past or anything, that's just one of the things that gives many of the older players massive advantages over new players - they basically have ISK printing machines, there are other points through eve's growth were veterans were able to get easy money and power due to oversights on CCP's part aswell such as them adding an item to the market then abruptly removing it making people who bought the stuff instantly have items worth hundreds or billions isk.
Veterans can HTFU.
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Wheretoboss
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Posted - 2010.09.22 13:07:00 -
[27]
It's about destabilizing zero sum.
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Gank'aho
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Posted - 2010.09.22 13:07:00 -
[28]
Posting in another thread about plex and remaps....
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Cebraio
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Posted - 2010.09.22 13:07:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Marak Mocam
Buying another remap? No problem with that idea here but for ISK; *NOT* PLEX.
PLEX = Pilot License Extension. Not Pilot attribute remapping nor SP remapping nor anything else. Put a service in the game that'll sell a remap and let the player decide if they get PLEX to fund it or not but don't put in a real-world conversion mechanism to BUY functions in the game like this....
My thoughts exactly. I am fine with more frequent remapping as an in-game service or maybe an item like an implant. Then people can decide if they want to spend their isk on it like they do on any other item. PLEX can be bought with isk, true, but they are also bought with real currency. Which means more people will start to put real money into things that are part of the existing EVE world (not some arbitrary service like character transfer, game time etc).
It may not seem like a big difference if people buy plex, sell them for isk and fund their remaps with the isk, but I think the direct usage of items that can be bought with external currency is leading into a very bad direction.
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Templar Dane
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.09.22 13:14:00 -
[30]
People crying about this topic are people who can't afford to pay directly for their subscription.
Get a job.
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