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Bond wanted: 4B - 10%

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Frie Dargon	Posted - 2010.09.30 00:08:00 - [1] I am a recently purchased character with only trading skills. I have been station trading in jita and have a little isk built up. However, I see a clear market opportunity in an under utilized market. Returns are 10%-50% per trade. But it is capital intensive, and while I have the time I do not have the isk. I've read through this forum while I've debated the best way to approach this. Here is what I can offer in terms of security for investors Audit The one thing I can't so. I do have altsNhat are disliked by certan alliances. I do the trading to make money to blow things up. I can't risk haven't this exposed Collateral The nature of the business is trading. That doesn't lend itself to collateral (such as bpos) Skills I can add myself to eveaboard so you can see my skills work for trading Disclosure of plan My idea isn't novel. Most people on this forum would likey say "oh that is it". But for the 100s of lurkers, I do not want competition. However, I will disused with investors in game or through evemIl. Nothing groundbreaking - I just don't want it eve searchable. It is too easy for a trader with minimal skills to get into and I want returns to say above 10% I can also prove I have been engaging in this activity, although on a more limited basis Now - no one here knows me so I am certain to receive scorn - please be constructive, how can I improve this and still achieve my objectives? More rgurn? I will easily out earn 10%
Frie Dargon	Posted - 2010.09.30 00:12:00 - [2] I apologize my spellcheck went a little haywire and my browser is conveniently also messed up - not allowing edits easily My grammar / spelling is not that bad Sort of embarassing
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.30 00:19:00 - [3] You want suggestions? 1) Does your first post entice someone giving you money? 2) Does your status of "just purchased character" give investors a feeling of NOT having to deal with a character trader / launderer / scammer? 3) Does your secrecy request match the amount of blind trust you are asking to the public as new character with no collateral? - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Frie Dargon	Posted - 2010.09.30 00:29:00 - [4] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha You want suggestions? 1) Does your first post entice someone giving you money? 2) Does your status of "just purchased character" give investors a feeling of NOT having to deal with a character trader / launderer / scammer? 3) Does your secrecy request match the amount of blind trust you are asking to the public as new character with no collateral? Ugh my browser is killing me - third time I e typed this response I clearly see the dilemm and did befor unlisted. BiwNtd to be upfront about the character purchase. I can offer proof my idea is viable and achievable I could move this character to a new account? Ugh, that is 15 a month Should I offer better returns? Faster payments? Any help would be appreciated Now go try to fix my browser Again I apologize with the poor presentation etc
Frie Dargon	Posted - 2010.09.30 00:31:00 - [5] I am going to stop posting until I get this fixed because my posts are almost garbled But please. Throw out suggestions - I will read later tonight
Krythas	Posted - 2010.09.30 06:17:00 - [6] Originally by: Frie Dargon I understand trust is a key element. Below are the terms of the investment: You have to realise that trust has to flow both ways. You need to show that you're willing to trust your investors as they are willing to trust you. Your entire post is basically asking for a very one sided level of trust. Various ways you can build such trust are a) offer collateral b) offer your API key so people can verify that what you say is true (trade history, alts, etc) c) present a past history of dealings that have been above board and worked out Without any of these you'll have a very hard time finding anyone that will fund your endeavours. Originally by: Frie Dargon Audit: The one thing I can't so. I do have alts on this account that are disliked by certan alliances. I trade to make money to blow things up. I can't risk haven't this character exposed. If you are annoying alliances enough that it may endanger your chances of getting a loan then I would assume you have a bunch of friends that are also helping you blow things up. Have you considered asking them for the loan with the 10% returns ? Originally by: Frie Dargon Collateral: The nature of the business is trading. That doesn't lend itself to collateral (such as bpos). If I had ISK to spare, I would invest it along with the 4B - I plan on investing all my free capital into this as well. Again, based on what you've stated above, if your character is old enough to be making that much of a difference to a number of alliances, then surely it must have amassed something of value over the time its played eve ? Collateral can come in many guises, things like ships or modules or ore or.. well, pretty much anything of worth. It could also come in the form of a loan of some expensive ships that would not normally be flown from some corp mates if they are not willing to loan you ISK directly. Even if the amount of collateral doesn't add up to cover the full loan amount - at least it shows you are trying. Originally by: Frie Dargon Disclosure of plan: My idea isn't novel. Most people on this forum would likey say "oh that is it". But for the 100s of lurkers, I do not want their competition. However, I will discuss with potential investors in game or through evemail. Nothing groundbreaking - I just don't want it eve searchable. It is too easy for a trader with minimal skills to get into this strategy and I want returns to stay above 10%. This may sound a bit paranoid, but I am happy to discuss the details through evemail. You do realise that even if you don't 'disclose' it in public, the chances are quite high that someone else will notice and enter your market anyway ? That by the by - I don't think anyone is expecting you to publicly post the exact details of what you plan to trade in. Things like "hauling stuff between hubs" would possibly be enough to let people know what you intend to do, and judge the risk. It would enable them to ask questions to show that you have thought about the risks involved and how to mitigate them. It'd be better if you'd put this in your original post as well as it shows that you've thought about things a lot. (read: more than 5 seconds or so) Originally by: Frie Dargon For fully disclosure, I recently purchased this trading character for the express purpose of trading. She has 5M SP in trading and allows me great flexibility with sales tax / broker fees / order management. So you've purchased a throw away character, wont reveal your main/other alts, are suitably vague about your business plan. You want investors to take a big risk on you with nothing given in return. It is unlikely at this point that you'd receive public funding for this. If you are unwilling to adjust your position then I'd suggest asking within your own corp/alliance for a loan.
Boogie Bobby	Posted - 2010.09.30 07:47:00 - [7] Does this involve low/null sec?
Dodixie Silver	Posted - 2010.09.30 13:14:00 - [8] Auditors don't (as a rule) reveal alts. So suck it up, get an audit.
Frie Dargon	Posted - 2010.09.30 13:51:00 - [9] Edited by: Frie Dargon on 30/09/2010 13:55:15 Good questions. On using my corpmates / alliance: it is my experience that pvp corps live on the margin. They don't have an interest in being market tycoons and accumulating wallets. It is a fair question, and I considered it, and asked around, but isn't feasible. The plan does NOT involve null-sec or lowsec.
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente League of Gentlemen Warped Aggression	Posted - 2010.09.30 13:56:00 - [10] As I said earlier (with my alt), get an audit. Auditors are good about maintaining all reasonable confidences, e.g. alt names. Also, most people here really don't care what alliance you're in, as long as you can deliver the stated results. I mean, we invested in goons, ffs. DesuSigs
Machete Visor	Posted - 2010.09.30 17:40:00 - [11] You are going to have a hard time w/o an audit. I tried something like this originally but "proved" my plan was working through the audit before I launched any IPO. I can kind of guess what type of trading you are doing based on the numbers you put in and I already do some of that and it does work. You would also have better luck with a smaller size offering. 4B falls into the medium range and most initial offers are less than 2B. 2B seems like a number that most agree a character would be silly to run off with if they had any ambition. I also like the idea of an equity-like kicker (25% profit share). I think your projections may be a little high - but making the 10% will be easy. Rewarding your initial investors for their trust by giving them a share of the profit makes sense. If you reduce the offering size to a more manageable amount and keep the incentive fee idea, I will reserve 200M. Get an audit and do the two things above, and I would consider investing more. But I'm willing to gamble a small amount on a new guy, I was there once as well.
Holli Nalt	Posted - 2010.09.30 21:09:00 - [12] If Machete, the ultimate skeptic, is in, then I'd like to reserve 200m as well. Could go higher if an audit was done. Not overly worried about the overall bond size (2b vs 4b seems minuscule really).
Dalmont Delantee Gallente British Legion	Posted - 2010.09.30 22:02:00 - [13] I'll reserve 200 mil as well Take comfort in knowing that its probably some pimply faced twit, or 40 year old virgin, who gleens everytime mommy offfers to take them to needle point lessons
Kevlar Moneyclipz	Posted - 2010.09.30 22:10:00 - [14] I'm willing to give someone a shot, and like others before me have said, if you get an audit, I'd be willing to invest much more. As it stands, again, like others have said, I'll throw in some $$ to help someone new to get started as well. Eve mail me, we'll talk to over. But for now, count me in for 250m.
Eckstacy	Posted - 2010.09.30 22:31:00 - [15] Put me down for 200m. Worth a punt, I hope.
Taram Caldar Royal Black Watch Highlanders Warped Aggression	Posted - 2010.09.30 23:50:00 - [16] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 30/09/2010 23:54:57 Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane I mean, we invested in goons, ffs. Speak for yourself. I have never knowingly invested in anyone associated in any way with goons. To the OP: If you want 4bil unsecured you need to get an audit. You're a total unknown. I don't care what your skills are, I want to know that you have the ability to do what you say you can. Only an audit can answer that question. What is your current NAV? (You can tell me anything, without an audit I can't confirm). How long have you been trading? (You can again, tell me anything, without an audit I have no way of confirming). What volume do you trade in? (Same) See where I'm going with this? Get an audit. Auditors won't disclose the alts on your account as long as you don't scam on your bond. You can even apply to the audit fund to get it paid for by the fund. Market Alerts Mailing List
Frie Dargon	Posted - 2010.10.01 06:27:00 - [17] Thank you for all of the responses. I've updated the investment list. I will reduce the offering to 3 billion. That will reduce the profit, but it is still enough so that I can put up 100-125M per trade. Taram, I understand your position about having an audit. I understand that alts would not be publically disclosed. However, even if they were inadventately privately disclosed it would likely ruin my game for my other characters. I deal with a lot of griefing - it shouldn't be surprising that many people playing this game are intent on trying to tick off another player. I am not sure if this helps or hurts, but trading 1 billion for the potential exposure of my plan to players that would ruin my other life in eve isn't worth it. I'd rather go at it with 3 billion and if it works, expand at a later date. But, I am not saying your ideas are necessarily overly prudent. I guess I can just hope for small investors who are willing to take a chance on good profit margin.
kiall Toz	Posted - 2010.10.01 07:28:00 - [18] Edited by: kiall Toz on 01/10/2010 07:30:32 A purchased character, not willing to undergo audit due to not willing to disclose main/alts??, surely you can 'vet' the auditor's, see which ones have no link to these allainces that dislike you. I've invested in some offerings that appeared more risky that standard offerings (no collateral, fairly large amounts for 1st time etc) but without disclosure of main/alts even just to a auditor this is just too risky. This screams of "I'm a known scammer that has brought a character to scam some more but need to avoid a audit to remain undetected".
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente League of Gentlemen Warped Aggression	Posted - 2010.10.01 12:33:00 - [19] Tell you what, evemail me your api key, i'll do a pretty basic audit. I've been all over 0.0 so I don't think there's any issues, as far as "I hate this alliance". Granted, I'm not as experienced as VV et al at auditing, but I can say "this guy is Bad Bobby" or "this guy is not Ricdic", as far as your characters - need the full one to verify "this guy regularly sends billions to Riethe" or "this guy doesn't send nobody nothin'". DesuSigs
Banque Lonely Pear Inc.	Posted - 2010.10.01 13:56:00 - [20] I would like to reserve 100 million isk.
Frie Dargon	Posted - 2010.10.01 15:51:00 - [21] Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane Tell you what, evemail me your api key, i'll do a pretty basic audit. I've been all over 0.0 so I don't think there's any issues, as far as "I hate this alliance". Granted, I'm not as experienced as VV et al at auditing, but I can say "this guy is Bad Bobby" or "this guy is not Ricdic", as far as your characters - need the full one to verify "this guy regularly sends billions to Riethe" or "this guy doesn't send nobody nothin'". Thanks for the offer. But ISK does go betweeen my other characters. You'll see that and that will just beg the question, who are those other characters? Who are those corpmates? The questions make sense to me now, i didn't really think about all that initially. I've been upfront about the fact that this is a purchased character and that I engage in PVP and want to fund it by trading rather than rat grinding or hauling moon / planet goods. It didn't seem like that big a deal - maybe i should have never mentioned it or setup this character on some type of new account. But i thought it was a small hurdle that could be overcome. It is a good lesson though. I don't know who Riddic is - heck, what if one of my alliance mates is one of these guys your mentioning and I don't even know it? I've read the top few pages of the forum here, but I don't know all the history. I can understand the suspicion after reading through some of the bad bobby threads. Something tells me he wouldn't come back to pull out 3B-4B ... The help is appreciated - it has been a learning experience for sure.
Scott McClellan Forum Posters Anonymous	Posted - 2010.10.01 16:40:00 - [22] Originally by: Frie Dargon Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane Tell you what, evemail me your api key, i'll do a pretty basic audit. I've been all over 0.0 so I don't think there's any issues, as far as "I hate this alliance". Granted, I'm not as experienced as VV et al at auditing, but I can say "this guy is Bad Bobby" or "this guy is not Ricdic", as far as your characters - need the full one to verify "this guy regularly sends billions to Riethe" or "this guy doesn't send nobody nothin'". Thanks for the offer. But ISK does go betweeen my other characters. You'll see that and that will just beg the question, who are those other characters? Who are those corpmates? The questions make sense to me now, i didn't really think about all that initially. I've been upfront about the fact that this is a purchased character and that I engage in PVP and want to fund it by trading rather than rat grinding or hauling moon / planet goods. It didn't seem like that big a deal - maybe i should have never mentioned it or setup this character on some type of new account. But i thought it was a small hurdle that could be overcome. It is a good lesson though. I hope the "lesson" you're referring to is not "I should lie to investors". Basically, trust is a two way street, you have to give some (in the form of some verifying information) to get ours (in the form of ISK).
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente League of Gentlemen Warped Aggression	Posted - 2010.10.01 19:57:00 - [23] I would be able to verify the alts on your account with the API, as it's not "per character" but "per account". If you also had multiple accounts, it would then behoove you to reveal that as well, and provide those APIs. I don't really care if you and (insert random scammer) PvP together - this would just be a cursory "This guy doesn't appear to be (insert random scammer) and appears to be able to perform (intended business plan)". Obviously you'd have to advise me what your basic plan was - I hate doing market stuff so "I make pancake syrup" isn't going to result in a huge pancake syrup bump from me suddenly horning in on your market. But in the end it's up to you. VV would really be (imo) the best auditor for you to convince to audit you - I'm just offering a cursory glance, not the wealth of information and potential 2 pages of analysis VV provides. In any case, I can reasonably state that you are unlikely to receive any public funding without an audit. DesuSigs
Iota Rong	Posted - 2010.10.01 20:35:00 - [24] Please reserve 250mil
Machete Visor	Posted - 2010.10.02 02:59:00 - [25] I'm glad to see you reduced the amount and included the equity kicker. I'll keep my 200M in. Again - and this has been said to death - if you got an audit i would potentially invest much more given the returns you are offering. As is i consider it a gamble.
49473 Jita Trade and Research Institute	Posted - 2010.10.02 09:14:00 - [26] This IPO/Bond receives a CCC credit rating. This investment is/has Extremely speculative and is Non-Investment Grade. A brief introduction of the credit rating system used for this rating can be found here IPOs/Bonds: Analysis and introduction to Credit Ratings, discussion of credit rating system can be found here Thread. Jita Trade and Research Institute shall not be responsible for any loss arising from any investment based on any recommendation, further disclaimer regarding any recommendations can be found in aforementioned document; including details of conflict of interest practices.
flakeys DRAMA Inc	Posted - 2010.10.02 09:49:00 - [27] Originally by: 49473 This IPO/Bond receives a CCC credit rating. This investment is/has Extremely speculative and is Non-Investment Grade. A brief introduction of the credit rating system used for this rating can be found here IPOs/Bonds: Analysis and introduction to Credit Ratings, discussion of credit rating system can be found here Thread. Jita Trade and Research Institute shall not be responsible for any loss arising from any investment based on any recommendation, further disclaimer regarding any recommendations can be found in aforementioned document; including details of conflict of interest practices. I find the idea of giving such comments on investments that are offered on MD based on a rating system to be verry bad.To each their own and if you want to do it then no problem.It could well be most people would find the idea nice and want this to become a standard but i find it unfair , unlogic and it will be crushed when a good rating offer ends up as a hell of a scam for sure when given time. This does not mean i don't appreciate your efforts though , i just don't see any logic in using them in this way.
49473 Jita Trade and Research Institute	Posted - 2010.10.02 10:00:00 - [28] Originally by: flakeys Originally by: 49473 This IPO/Bond receives a CCC credit rating. This investment is/has Extremely speculative and is Non-Investment Grade. A brief introduction of the credit rating system used for this rating can be found here IPOs/Bonds: Analysis and introduction to Credit Ratings, discussion of credit rating system can be found here Thread. Jita Trade and Research Institute shall not be responsible for any loss arising from any investment based on any recommendation, further disclaimer regarding any recommendations can be found in aforementioned document; including details of conflict of interest practices. I find the idea of giving such comments on investments that are offered on MD based on a rating system to be verry bad.To each their own and if you want to do it then no problem.It could well be most people would find the idea nice and want this to become a standard but i find it unfair , unlogic and it will be crushed when a good rating offer ends up as a hell of a scam for sure when given time. This does not mean i don't appreciate your efforts though , i just don't see any logic in using them in this way. Please make your constructive criticism in the thread I linked for discussion of the credit rating system so that this person's thread is not dragged off topic.
flakeys DRAMA Inc	Posted - 2010.10.02 10:22:00 - [29] Edited by: flakeys on 02/10/2010 10:25:37 Originally by: 49473 Originally by: flakeys Originally by: 49473 This IPO/Bond receives a CCC credit rating. This investment is/has Extremely speculative and is Non-Investment Grade. A brief introduction of the credit rating system used for this rating can be found here IPOs/Bonds: Analysis and introduction to Credit Ratings, discussion of credit rating system can be found here Thread. Jita Trade and Research Institute shall not be responsible for any loss arising from any investment based on any recommendation, further disclaimer regarding any recommendations can be found in aforementioned document; including details of conflict of interest practices. I find the idea of giving such comments on investments that are offered on MD based on a rating system to be verry bad.To each their own and if you want to do it then no problem.It could well be most people would find the idea nice and want this to become a standard but i find it unfair , unlogic and it will be crushed when a good rating offer ends up as a hell of a scam for sure when given time. This does not mean i don't appreciate your efforts though , i just don't see any logic in using them in this way. Please make your constructive criticism in the thread I linked for discussion of the credit rating system so that this person's thread is not dragged off topic. It's ok to go into people's thread where they ask for a loan and kill it with a rating system that says jack **** about scamrisk.It is not ok to comment on your rating unless where 'you' say so? Please keep the rating of these offers in your own thread then. Thanks Ow and one more thing , according to your rating what would titans4u have been rated at?Enough said ?
49473 Jita Trade and Research Institute	Posted - 2010.10.02 10:30:00 - [30] Originally by: flakeys Originally by: 49473 Originally by: flakeys Originally by: 49473 This IPO/Bond receives a CCC credit rating. This investment is/has Extremely speculative and is Non-Investment Grade. A brief introduction of the credit rating system used for this rating can be found here IPOs/Bonds: Analysis and introduction to Credit Ratings, discussion of credit rating system can be found here Thread. Jita Trade and Research Institute shall not be responsible for any loss arising from any investment based on any recommendation, further disclaimer regarding any recommendations can be found in aforementioned document; including details of conflict of interest practices. I find the idea of giving such comments on investments that are offered on MD based on a rating system to be verry bad.To each their own and if you want to do it then no problem.It could well be most people would find the idea nice and want this to become a standard but i find it unfair , unlogic and it will be crushed when a good rating offer ends up as a hell of a scam for sure when given time. This does not mean i don't appreciate your efforts though , i just don't see any logic in using them in this way. Please make your constructive criticism in the thread I linked for discussion of the credit rating system so that this person's thread is not dragged off topic. It's ok to go into people's thread where they ask for a loan and kill it with a rating system that says jack **** about scamrisk.It is not ok to comment on your rating unless where 'you' say so? Please keep the rating of these offers in your own thread then. Thanks My motivations for wanting the discussion elsewhere is so that discussion of legitimacy of the credit rating system does not unduly detract from the thread at hand. You can comment on it wherever you like, however you only risk giving more attention to the rating in this particular case by doing so and thus artificially boosting its importance in relation to other analysis of the offering. My motivations for posting a credit rating in thread are much the same as the other posters who have expressed an opinion in a less formal way.

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