|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
515
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 19:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
Two step wrote:My personal opinion is that this seems like a bug, and it should be fixed. I'll leave the exploit determination to CCP.
I would ask that you reconsider this. The point of having these restrictions is to encourage combat with a variety of ships. Having gangs camp accelleration gates ruins this.
Also it doesn't work entirely like a normal system gate. If you get scrammed before you hit the jump button you are scrammed. So if you for example burn toward an enemy at the accell gate and get scrammed you can not then just decide to jump.
The "bug" if it is a bug, works especially well when your ship ends up getting caught in the gate itself.
This is working as it should work. If people want to fight then get in the right ship for the plex and fight inside the plex. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
516
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 13:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Pinky Feldman wrote:It has nothing to do with taking away free kills, its about taking away a get out of jail free card. Agreed. I have a possible, simple fix that will make accel gate camping a viable tactic.
Why do we want to eliminate the ship limitted combat that is fws main draw for so many? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
516
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 14:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Also: From the title of the reddit article I thought fweddit exploited hans 3x in front of their fleet. I was interested in reading the details of what exactly that meant.
I was a bit disappointed when I read the post. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
518
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 18:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Pinky Feldman wrote:It has nothing to do with taking away free kills, its about taking away a get out of jail free card. If a player is too dumb to warp to an acceleration gate without checking d-scan he should die. If the campers are too dumb to not GO INSIDE THE PLEX and camp the WT there then they are... pretty freaking ******** or too chicken to fight inside a plex. So it all evens out. Um. If you're camping the gate to a minor plex with cruisers ...
Your looking for ganks.
Which is fine, but the restrictions on plexes are what makes fw the best place for quality pvp. Having these gates camped by mouthbreathers will just make eve that much worse of a game. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
518
|
Posted - 2012.08.04 19:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
Thomas Kreshant wrote:Acceleration gates don't really foster small gang pvp.. .
Yeah, they really do. There are allot of different ways they do this. No fleet warps in plexs (or on grid witht eh accel gate) as well as the ship restrictions make fw the best place for pvp in eve.
200 thrashers come? do they all warp in at the same time? If not you may be able to move away from the warp in and kill some that arrive early before the rest can catch up.
Or go to a different minor plex. If someone follows kill him and run.
If they refuse to split up ok. They can sit 200 pilots in a plex and run the timer and you can run your own timer in a different plex. You will be doing the plexing work of 200 of thier pilots.
If there forces are smaller but still too much for you/your gang and you see they all entered the plex (using dscan) you can warp out and back to the gate. If one of them warps out you may be able to fight him back at the gate. (of course they can spam warp at the gate but often they won't.) then their gang inside the plex will have to complete 2 warps and burn to where you are fighting this other player before they can join in the fight.
There are other ways these plexes lead to great pvp. Seriously pretty much all the fights in plexes are great fights. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
521
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 18:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote: You're assuming that the people camping the gate are completely untouchable, when the reality is that camping an acceleration gate that you can't enter is an extremely risky proposition and much different than camping a jump gate or a station. You don't have the possibility of deaggroing and jumping back through the gate or redocking, so the biggest safety net of those two playstyles are essentially eliminated leaving you with the equivalent of sitting in the middle of an asteroid belt at 0km with no ability to warp to on-grid pounces. If you get pinned down on an acceleration gate that you can't get into, you just die. Plain and simple..
Its not really that different from camping any other gate except its much easier because they always have to come in disruptor range to use the gate unlike a star gate that can kick you out far from tackle. So plexing will become sitting with a few interceptors on the gate with tornados and falcons at range blapping every frigate or destroyer that wants in. Local and dscan means there is not really much risk imo.
Pinky Feldman wrote: I'm going to throw out a totally different scenario that goes against the theory that unscrammable acceleration gates only favor the smaller gang. Lets say i'm camping a medium plex gate with my Hurricane that has a sebo, which I might add is a very vulnerable position to be in, a single Arazu will pretty much ruin my day. Anyways, two cruisers enter the system and warp to the medium. This could potentially be a fun fight, since the cruisers can warp to me at range and kite somewhat evening up the fight or if they warp to the gate at 0km I can scram one of them and force them both to fight or one of them gets left to die. Either way, if they want to fight, I now the ability to force a fight or present consequence if they want to capture that plex.
If they want to fight they can fight your bc. Like I said if they go for your bc and you scram them they then can't just jump in anytime they want. If they do not want to fight your bigger ship (perhaps they know you have a battleship, a falcon, or 5 other bcs ready to warp in on them) then they have the option to enter the plex. Then the ball is in your court you can ship down and fight for the plex or stay in your bigger ships and smack in local.
Pinky Feldman wrote: Instead, with the current mechanics, they both gate-slide in and my only option as a solo PVPer is to ship down to a cruiser and take a 2v1 fight where they're already set up inside the plex, which is pretty much a guaranteed loss..
Not really you can warp back to the gate and check your dscan to see if anyone warps out and back. They will often try to tackle you and their buddy will have to go through 2 warps to get to you. Try to kill the first guy in time. You can also open your own medium plex and see if either wants to come fight. Do they both come? If so does one burn out to you faster? The current plexing mechanics give many opportunities to split up larger gangs. But yeah if they won't split up and you don't want to fight them at the same time there will be no fight. But at least you are forcing 2 of them to do the same job you are doing alone in terms of plexing.
Also the ships can vary. Maybe you are in a faction cruiser and they are in a t1 cruiser and an af. You both can go in the plex and fight without worrying about falcons or gangs warping on top of you. If you fight on the accell gate then its the same as everywhere else in eve - blob trumps all.
I am really convinced that moving fights in plexes will make for better fights than moving them outside plexes.
Pinky Feldman wrote: Then, lets say I come back with 2 crusiers that will probably beat their cruisers, but they realize this too and run. I just reshipped for absolutely nothing and if I try to plex the time back down, those two people can just go to another system and start offensive plexing there while I have my hans tied in the current system.
I agree this needs to be addressed but its a different issue. It should be addressed by allowing us to know when and what type of plexes are attacked so we can respond in time with the appropriate ships. This could also be addressed by a count down type mechanic so when they run with an enemy on grid they would lose the work they did in the plex.
Pinky Feldman wrote: I agree that the current mechanics strongly favor the underdog from a plexing standpoint, but from a PVP standpoint it does the complete opposite an just creates ridiculous reshippathon scenarios where you can do absolutely nothing to prevent people who want to plex, from being able to plex.
I agree that this is a problem but the answer is not to allow us to gate camp plexes so we can blap smaller ships. Its to make it so that you will make more lp by fighting than you will by running. This can be done by giving notifications and a form of a timer countdown.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
521
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 18:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:Pax Thar wrote:Making it easier to accel camp doesnt add any more danger to anyone using dscan. It doesnt make pvp more dynamic and isnt thinking outside the box. Its letting guys overship and choke plexes instead of getting in propper ships for the plex and pvping. It defeats the entire purpose of having ship restrictions if those ships cant make it inside.
Working as intended. I said before, in a fleet setting its unlikely that an overshipped fleet will be able to catch an entire opposing fleet on a plex gate. Most of the opposing fleet will still likely be able to get through, however, now they have the ability to thin out some of the enemy gang and putting some consequence in their ability to take the plex. The ability to gate slide pretty much results in the following scenario. Attackers - Reship to appropriate size. If you have equal or fewer numbers, concede the plex, ....
Or reship to a smaller or larger class of plex and run that. See if the enemy can bring something to fight. Or spread out and start running several plexes. If the enemy sits in one big blob in the plex you will be doing multiple times the amount of plexing they will.
Pinky Feldman wrote: Defenders - Did the other gang bring a fleet that you can't beat? If no, then proceed to kill their entire fleet. If yes, GTFO and either run plexes somewhere else, or ship down and get inside a smaller plex, or upship and get into a bigger plex.
Again you are assuming neither side is willing to split up their gang to get fights. I understand that is the case often. But that is your choice. Its not forced on you by the mechanics. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
521
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 21:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:Cearain wrote: *stuff about timers and notifications*
*moar stuff about nados and ceptors*
I'm against the idea of having system wide notifications and what not. I understand the value they would provide, but from an intel standpoint, this is something that should be placed in the hands of the players. Good intel provides a HUGE advantage for the side that has the resources and the willingness to properly scout and is one of the biggest unspoken force multipliers in the game. Removing this aspect from the game would take away something that exists in every other part of EVE .....
I agree that the need for alt scouts exists in every other part of eve. And yes its a huge advantage. Its the reason good quality pvp takes hours to find in eve. And why so much eve time for most pvpers involves shipping up and shipping down. But like you said every other aspect of eve emphasizes alt scouts. There is no reason one single aspect of the game can't be geared toward people who just want to jump in a ship and pew.
The strategies would change from having alts find the enemy gang so you can ship up 2xs their strength, to assigning pilots to different systems so they can continually fight. There is no reason all the eve pvp has to be the same.
Pinky Feldman wrote: Regarding the nados and ceptors, theres nothing stopping people from sitting instalocking Arty nados in front of or behind minor acceleration gates as it is. Technically you can do this already.
You might be right. I don't know if you are invulnerable after you activate the gate. If naods become a problem then ccp should address it.
In any event helping people camp accelleration gates is not really a solution to the problem of plexing being a pve activity where pvp is avoided. People will just warp a distance from the gate and enter it. You will make plexing more tedious but that is about it.
The notification system and the timer countdown will actually make it so you are better off fighting as opposed to always running. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
521
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 21:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:Cearain wrote:Pinky Feldman wrote:
I said before, in a fleet setting its unlikely that an overshipped fleet will be able to catch an entire opposing fleet on a plex gate. Most of the opposing fleet will still likely be able to get through, however, now they have the ability to thin out some of the enemy gang and putting some consequence in their ability to take the plex.
The ability to gate slide pretty much results in the following scenario.
Attackers - Reship to appropriate size. If you have equal or fewer numbers, concede the plex, ....
Or reship to a smaller or larger class of plex and run that. See if the enemy can bring something to fight. Or spread out and start running several plexes. If the enemy sits in one big blob in the plex you will be doing multiple times the amount of plexing they will. Pinky Feldman wrote: Defenders - Did the other gang bring a fleet that you can't beat? If no, then proceed to kill their entire fleet. If yes, GTFO and either run plexes somewhere else, or ship down and get inside a smaller plex, or upship and get into a bigger plex.
Again you are assuming neither side is willing to split up their gang to get fights. I understand that is the case often. But that is your choice. Its not forced on you by the mechanics. Of course the other gang can split up and running many other plexes, but we already established earlier that the current mechanics favor those who seek only to plex and avoid conflict.
Helping accel gate campers will do little to improve this.
Pinky Feldman wrote: Finally, regarding the splitting your gang up, sure thats an option, but it doesn't make it a good one and is entirely situational. If you're the attacker, you need to have a larger force since you're already limited by your group's ability to reinforce losses, so dropping numbers until you get an "even" fight still ultimately becomes a loss since you can't reship as quickly as the other side can, and there is nothing that you can do to stop them from sending in said reinforcements..
Even if we end up fighting outside a plexes instead of inside a plex the attacker will still need more numbers due to an inability to reship. You are expressing problems that your proposal doesn't solve.
What you identified is a problem with the station lockout rule. Not the rule that you can't easilly gank people as they enter plexes.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
|
|
|