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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
253
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Posted - 2011.09.24 13:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
Well there was a fun little scuffle in Great Wildlands, with dozens of supercarriers and many titans, fighter and fighter-bombers all over the field, 300+ in local and zero lag. When I say zero lag, I mean absolutely no perceptible lag effects at all. There might as well have been 3 in local, not 300.
Whatever other problems EVE has right now, TQ performance isn't one of them.
Well done and a big thank you to Team Gridlock for helping to make this afternoon's fun possible.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=10696699 Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
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CCP Masterplan
C C P C C P Alliance
4
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Posted - 2011.09.24 14:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Thanks very much for the positive feedback. We're always happy to hear how developments are performing 'in the wild', whether that is good or bad.
I've just checked some data from the node hosting that system, and it is good to correlate our graphs and numbers with your real-world experiences. For the record, this wasn't a dedicated node - there were quite a few other systems sharing it - so I'm happy with how that worked out, both for all of you involved in the fight, and for everyone else sharing the node. |
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Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
43
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Posted - 2011.09.24 14:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
Nice to know that small gang fights now work properly. |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
81
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Posted - 2011.09.24 14:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
Happy to provide, Mr. Malcanis. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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Cypermethren
Celtic Cartage And Hauling
1
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Posted - 2011.09.24 15:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
I have an irking feeling that the reason you had no lag was because there's less people playing Eve than two months ago by a substantial ammount.
So less load on the servers, and the servers are able to cope with the load properly.
And the no-lag battle was not due to any recent coding modifications on the back end.
I guess either way, both if they have made coding modifications or if it is moreso due to the far-less-players-causing-server-load, that CCP can be credited for this work.
Bravo? |
Denidil
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
98
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Posted - 2011.09.24 15:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cypermethren wrote:I have an irking feeling that the reason you had no lag was because there's less people playing Eve than two months ago by a substantial ammount.
So less load on the servers, and the servers are able to cope with the load properly.
And the no-lag battle was not due to any recent coding modifications on the back end.
I guess either way, both if they have made coding modifications or if it is moreso due to the far-less-players-causing-server-load, that CCP can be credited for this work.
Bravo?
the servers don't work that way. the server load on the system your in is determined by how many pilots are in that system and the other systems shared by that node (most likely a constellation of less).
even if there were only 5000 people on the server, if all those people were in two systems there would be lag. especially if those two systems were on the same node Anyone who is blue to DRF are cowards and have failed Eve.
MM Bombers, Best Bombers |
Ubee Rubiks
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2011.09.24 15:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
Denidil wrote:Cypermethren wrote:I have an irking feeling that the reason you had no lag was because there's less people playing Eve than two months ago by a substantial ammount.
So less load on the servers, and the servers are able to cope with the load properly.
And the no-lag battle was not due to any recent coding modifications on the back end.
I guess either way, both if they have made coding modifications or if it is moreso due to the far-less-players-causing-server-load, that CCP can be credited for this work.
Bravo? the servers don't work that way. the server load on the system your in is determined by how many pilots are in that system and the other systems shared by that node (most likely a constellation of less). even if there were only 5000 people on the server, if all those people were in two systems there would be lag. especially if those two systems were on the same node
Both of your points are pointing the same thing out, allow me to illustrate.
If there are 60k people are online there is a much better chance there are more people sharing that node the fight occured in than if there were 20k people online.
I applaud team gridlock but the point that less people are logging in to play could have also played a part.
Keep up the work in the war on lag Gridlock your team is the only area off ccp that I like atm. |
Cass Lie
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.09.24 16:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
Cypermethren wrote:I have an irking feeling that the reason you had no lag was because there's less people playing Eve than two months ago by a substantial ammount.
So less load on the servers, and the servers are able to cope with the load properly.
And the no-lag battle was not due to any recent coding modifications on the back end.
I guess either way, both if they have made coding modifications or if it is moreso due to the far-less-players-causing-server-load, that CCP can be credited for this work.
Bravo?
CCP can indeed be credited, but in the positive way (see Denidil's post above for some basic facts). Also, a fight like this in the months immediately following Dominion would have been an incredibly laggy lottery. There has been been a definite (huge) improvement in the server performance during big fights since Team Gridlock was set to work (ask anyone in null). These guys deserve every internet there is.
(Also nice to see Init. and Gypsies still going strong.) |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
29
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Posted - 2011.09.24 16:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Nice to know that small gang fights now work properly. Small-gang is "300+ with dozens of supercarriers and many titans"?
No wonder the western world is getting fatter than walruses if large is accepted as small
PS: Good news on the whole impromptu fleet fights being possible without premature hair-loss and ulcers as the only winners.
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Sorion Shardani
Make My Day Border World Enterprises
0
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Posted - 2011.09.24 16:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
This was a great battle report.... Good to see success against those who appear to have been exploiting game mechanics for a while now. |
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David Grogan
The Motley Crew Reborn Warped Aggression
43
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Posted - 2011.09.25 15:42:00 -
[11] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Nice to know that small gang fights now work properly.
dont ya mean small superblob warfare? |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
26
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Posted - 2011.09.25 16:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
300 IS Small, when was the last 1000 man engagement in Null Sec anyways? NOSTRO AURUM NON EST AURUM VULGI |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
260
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Posted - 2011.09.25 16:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote: 300 IS Small, when was the last 1000 man engagement in Null Sec anyways?
Sometime in the spring, I think? Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Cass Lie
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.09.25 19:12:00 -
[14] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Bloodpetal wrote: 300 IS Small, when was the last 1000 man engagement in Null Sec anyways?
Sometime in the spring, I think?
I think the relatively recent VFK defense had over 1k at some point and the battles for HED-GP might have also been close. But yes, the days of the daily colossal meatgrinders in Geminate are gone (for now). |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
263
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Posted - 2011.09.25 19:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
That said we just had a fight with ~850 in local in U104-3 in Wicked Creek
I myself was only getting maybe 5-10 seconds command lag, with everything working normally after that including autorepeat, but quite a few of my corpies were reporting 1-2 minute responses, permarunning infi-MWDs, had to ungroup guns and switch off autorepeat, etc
I guess we exceeded the limit of what can be done with an unreinforced node (I'm given to understand that this is ~500 or so?)
Also I killed a Thrasher, so ~op success~.
EDIT: I Dc'd jmping out and got my baddon killed. Meh. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Alexandra Alt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2011.09.25 19:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
I couldn't even reach the fight, got stuck trying to jump a gate, and ended up being disconnected, to die in a black screen with a progress bar only on it, listening to a gang killing me while I was powerless, couldn't even shoot back.
GG, nice work!
(I got stuck like 3 jumps out of that system btw) |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
263
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Posted - 2011.09.25 20:07:00 -
[17] - Quote
The lag God giveth, the lag God taketh away:
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to portal in, and a time to die; a time to reship, and a time to whine in fleet about lag;
A time to kill, and a time to rep; a time to hit structure, and a time to broadcast when you're yellow boxed, what the **** is wrong with you people this isn't difficult;
A time to shitpost, and a time to laugh; a time to claim reimbursement, and a time to dance;
A time to cast away bombs, and a time to reload; a time to orbit anchor, and a time to warp the **** out;
A time to loot, and a time to buy new mods; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
A time to gank, and a time to burn back to gate a time to keep hold cloak, and a time to lock primary;
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace... Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
beor oranes
The Capitalist Protectorate Mad Scientists
8
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Posted - 2011.09.25 21:09:00 -
[18] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Happy to provide, Mr. Malcanis.
You have gone and done it now, he's going to want everyone to call him that.
I'm coming to the belief that a large portion of the lag, especially the ones where your the only one lagging out in your gang, actually is something to do with the persons computer or net connection and not the server. I remember hearing one of the RnK guys say that their important ships are mostly flown by people who have pretty good computers with SSHD's so that the client doesn't have any hiccups.
Just from my personal experience when I played on someone else's laptop cos mine had decided to do a big poop it was smoother and I had less of the little annoying things that I have with my laptop, the difference between the 2 is about two and half years, a quadcore, twice the memory and a better graphic's card. When I did small gang stuff with friends they tended to load slightly faster than me as I was the one with the worst and oldest computer. |
Alexandra Alt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2011.09.25 21:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
Go and tell that to all ppl who died or had to be GM moved during the travel on stuck gates and freaked up logins.
I bet they were all with ****** pc's (I'm not on one mind you) and/or network issues (which wasn't the case my alt in empire had no trouble whatsoever). |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
83
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Posted - 2011.09.25 21:42:00 -
[20] - Quote
I was monitoring the server during that fight, and have had a preliminary look at the server logs for it, and there were definitely problems for some folks in regards to jumping between systems on the server side. I'll need to dig into it more in the morning. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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Spurty
V0LTA VOLTA Corp
22
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Posted - 2011.09.25 21:45:00 -
[21] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Well there was a fun little scuffle in Great Wildlands, with dozens of supercarriers and many titans, fighter and fighter-bombers all over the field, 300+ in local and zero lag. When I say zero lag, I mean absolutely no perceptible lag effects at all. There might as well have been 3 in local, not 300. Whatever other problems EVE has right now, TQ performance isn't one of them. Well done and a big thank you to Team Gridlock for helping to make this afternoon's fun possible. http://tinyurl.com/3bz83n5
FY-URL (So EVE-FORUMS doesn't sterilize it) ---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
264
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Posted - 2011.09.25 21:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:I was monitoring the server during that fight, and have had a preliminary look at the server logs for it, and there were definitely problems for some folks in regards to jumping between systems on the server side. I'll need to dig into it more in the morning.
Of particular interest is why Player A gets lagmonstered hard while Player B in the same fleet on the same grid sees minimal effects.
Obviously any hints that you can give us on how to affect this on the client side would be extremely valuable. I had brackets off, all effects off, ship, gate & planet only overview, if that helps.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
264
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Posted - 2011.09.25 21:53:00 -
[23] - Quote
Spurty wrote:Malcanis wrote:Well there was a fun little scuffle in Great Wildlands, with dozens of supercarriers and many titans, fighter and fighter-bombers all over the field, 300+ in local and zero lag. When I say zero lag, I mean absolutely no perceptible lag effects at all. There might as well have been 3 in local, not 300. Whatever other problems EVE has right now, TQ performance isn't one of them. Well done and a big thank you to Team Gridlock for helping to make this afternoon's fun possible. http://tinyurl.com/3bz83n5 FY-URL (So EVE-FORUMS doesn't sterilize it)
tyvm, Mr Spurty. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Alexandra Alt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2011.09.25 22:08:00 -
[24] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:I was monitoring the server during that fight, and have had a preliminary look at the server logs for it, and there were definitely problems for some folks in regards to jumping between systems on the server side. I'll need to dig into it more in the morning. Of particular interest is why Player A gets lagmonstered hard while Player B in the same fleet on the same grid sees minimal effects. Obviously any hints that you can give us on how to affect this on the client side would be extremely valuable. I had brackets off, all effects off, ship, gate & planet only overview, if that helps.
That might be aplicabe to the fight itself yes, but how about all those left behing during the travel to said system being picked on while trying to log back in and stuck in black loading screens and progress bar being shot helpless ?
I'm pretty sure no setting/config or PC setup would fix that. |
beor oranes
The Capitalist Protectorate Mad Scientists
8
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Posted - 2011.09.25 22:25:00 -
[25] - Quote
You are probably right Alexandra Alt, there is probably some problems server side that cause people to get stuck. I was just offering to anecdotal evidence of my own to suggest that not all lag is caused by the server but could be affected from the client side as well. I have myself suffered random black screens when jumping between two empty systems and know how annoying it is, I have also suffered this and my mate didn't on the same gate at the same time, so I would think that some of the problem must come from my end it cant be all server end. Anything that will help in the setup of your computer to alleviate part of the problem (if there is one there) is surely a good thing to know, right? |
Alexandra Alt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2011.09.25 23:14:00 -
[26] - Quote
beor oranes wrote:You are probably right Alexandra Alt, there is probably some problems server side that cause people to get stuck. I was just offering to anecdotal evidence of my own to suggest that not all lag is caused by the server but could be affected from the client side as well. I have myself suffered random black screens when jumping between two empty systems and know how annoying it is, I have also suffered this and my mate didn't on the same gate at the same time, so I would think that some of the problem must come from my end it cant be all server end. Anything that will help in the setup of your computer to alleviate part of the problem (if there is one there) is surely a good thing to know, right?
Please excuse me as I'm quite uppset, aimed for a pleasant pew pew afternoon today when I could have some time outside with mrs and a few friends, but instead I was hungry for some lasors and ended up stuck in a black screen being killed by a handfull of noobs not being able to do anything about it, having to pod myself to get back.
Regarding the issue at hand I find it quite difficult for the simple and quick check reason that my alt, had no issues whatsoever in empire, therefore could not be an issue on my end, same pc, same network connection, same variables on my side, nevertheless you are right many issues might not be eve server related, hell, might not even be the player/player connection fault, the routing can go haywire sometimes and in those circumstances I'll be the first one to point it out, as fast as I criticize CCP for an issue that arise I believe to be their problem, I'll also thank when it is deserved, and for that, I have to thank as CarbonIO is actually working amazingly great as tested this thursday in Sisi.
The issue with the black screen has been plaguing players from long time already and imo as a developer there could have been a bandaid fix to avoid it for quite a while already, I don't know the intricates of CCP server/client communication though, but I would guess that all it would need would be simply waiting for the whole client to be fully loaded and responsive and send a packet to the server allowing for the warp initiation, something that doesn't seem to be happening, the 'green' light sent to server to initiate the warp is happening way before all resources are loaded, friends had half ui loaded, no chat whatsoever nor overview, only ship and modules, unable to do anything, all frozen, while being shot by reds @ the gate (and this in a system with about 15 ppl), my guessing is, server load was tremendous, queueing instructions, and the client wasn't in synch with the server.
Again, imho, this things aren't hard to fix, obviously I'm talking without knowing how the server works, probably the server has some screwed up threading design that allows for this easy desynch that CarbonIO is about to fix, but I had to rant, I got really pissed, and it got me even more uppset because I don't like at all to not have control of what's happening, it feels really bad to know you're being shot at, in a blank screen, where u know that if you quit client won't do a thing, and staying will just keep you staring at a black screen. |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
83
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Posted - 2011.09.25 23:33:00 -
[27] - Quote
These black-screening issues usually trace back to problems with the session-change architecture on the server side. We've deployed a slew of fixes for various ways it could go haywire over the past year and change. It's unfortunately not surprising to me that it still falls on its face under load though, it's pretty gnarly. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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beor oranes
The Capitalist Protectorate Mad Scientists
8
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Posted - 2011.09.25 23:38:00 -
[28] - Quote
I sympathise mate, I really do. I have had it happen to me on a number of occasions and I can see why you are annoyed. All I was suggesting was that maybe there was more to it than just 'a server screw up'. However, I am open to the idea that it could something that is a problem at the server side and nothing that a player can do to improve or worsen. I must confess that I am not technical to really understand how it works but I would have thought that if the solution was so simple then why hasn't it been done?! Clearly there is something else happening whether that be client or server or somewhere in between that causes this problem and CCP haven't managed to narrow it down enough to stop it happening so frequently. Maybe CCP Veritas can give us a better insight into why it is happening and whether such a fix would work if it could be implemented?
Edit: He beat me too it. Thanks CCP Veritas for explaining a bit more about the reason for black screens. |
Alexandra Alt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2011.09.26 00:03:00 -
[29] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:These black-screening issues usually trace back to problems with the session-change architecture on the server side. We've deployed a slew of fixes for various ways it could go haywire over the past year and change. It's unfortunately not surprising to me that it still falls on its face under load though, it's pretty gnarly.
Does CarbonIO fix the session-change architecture is it a threading problem?
I am the first (probably) to criticize rush deployments, but I would classify it's deployment as urgent tbh, winter is comming, the load will increase.
Out of curiosity, is CarbonIO already developed in a compiled language and not python ? (Sorry, I'm kinda python hater, not because of EvE mind you :P) |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
312
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Posted - 2011.09.26 02:09:00 -
[30] - Quote
No Lag, Fun Features and Exciting Future Plans.
Pick any one. 84,000 AUR ($420) spent on NeX store for Troll and Profit. |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
266
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Posted - 2011.09.26 06:22:00 -
[31] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:These black-screening issues usually trace back to problems with the session-change architecture on the server side. We've deployed a slew of fixes for various ways it could go haywire over the past year and change. It's unfortunately not surprising to me that it still falls on its face under load though, it's pretty gnarly.
I can understand that when the node has to grind through 850 warp commands or whatever, some guy is going to get the sticky end of the stick and his warp will be executed last; what I've never really understood is why the server keeps picking on the same guys to get said sticky end. Like once it's "chosen" Player A to get the lag shaft, he gets lagged the whole fight, whilst Player B continues to receive favourable treatment.
Levelling out this inequity is one of the biggest attractions of Time Dilation, btw. It wouldn't just reduce the frustration caused by unfairness - a fleet is often constrained to act at the speed of its slowest members. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Headerman
Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx
108
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Posted - 2011.09.26 06:51:00 -
[32] - Quote
Sounds like Session Changes is due for a major upgrade next, ala Carbon IO? |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
44
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Posted - 2011.09.26 15:19:00 -
[33] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:These black-screening issues usually trace back to problems with the session-change architecture on the server side. We've deployed a slew of fixes for various ways it could go haywire over the past year and change. It's unfortunately not surprising to me that it still falls on its face under load though, it's pretty gnarly.
Will TiDi allow it to not fall on its face? Also as long as someone brought up TiDi...
Do we get to test it this week? Are solar all the solar systems being run by one node grouped together on the map, or will be get odd things like Tar having TiDi because of a big battle in Null?
CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
83
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Posted - 2011.09.26 19:36:00 -
[34] - Quote
Alexandra Alt wrote:Does CarbonIO fix the session-change architecture is it a threading problem? No. CarbonIO has been running on the server for some time now, so I feel comfortable saying it doesn't solve the problem.
Alexandra Alt wrote:Out of curiosity, is CarbonIO already developed in a compiled language and not python ? (Sorry, I'm kinda python hater, not because of EvE mind you :P) Yes, it's in C++.
Headerman wrote:Sounds like Session Changes is due for a major upgrade next It's been on various teams' wish list since I've been at CCP (a year and a half-ish), but it's one of those big-scary-might-break-everything things that somehow keeps being put off
Vincent Athena wrote:Will TiDi allow it to not fall on its face? It should help, though I'm not certain quite how much, since I'm not certain what the exact problem we're dealing with here is. Depending on how aggressively we tune TiDi to kick in once load is laid on, it might not respond fast enough. The downside of making it aggressive enough to kick in before such things can go down is that it might kick in when it really shouldn't. It's a balancing act we'll need to play with once we have real life datapoints to track.
Vincent Athena wrote:Do we get to test it this week? I hope so; our test plan is quite behind schedule already >< CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
83
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Posted - 2011.09.26 19:36:00 -
[35] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Are solar all the solar systems being run by one node grouped together on the map, or will be get odd things like Tar having TiDi because of a big battle in Null?
Yes, they're almost always grouped by constellation and region. There's also a hard boundary between null, empire and wormhole nodes, so bleeding through type of space is extremely unlikely. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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Andy Landen
Cryptonym Sleepers
2
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Posted - 2011.09.28 21:09:00 -
[36] - Quote
Thanks for the update to my thread: post 114794. Let's get some dates and commitments now please. |
Jita Alt666
273
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Posted - 2011.09.28 22:14:00 -
[37] - Quote
Quote:It's been on various teams' wish list since I've been at CCP (a year and a half-ish), but it's one of those big-scary-might-break-everything things that somehow keeps being put off
Please make it a priority. Everything regarding FIS comes down to fair ability of pilots to conduct their actions in any possible fleet setting.
I do have to agree with the OP: Things have been improving, a fight of 200-400 is no longer a lag grind over 700 in local though and things are still pretty gnarly... |
Taleris Kline
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.09.29 12:30:00 -
[38] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:[ Headerman wrote:Sounds like Session Changes is due for a major upgrade next It's been on various teams' wish list since I've been at CCP (a year and a half-ish), but it's one of those big-scary-might-break-everything things that somehow keeps being put off
Are we talking undocumented code that hasn't been touched in 5 years gnarly or undocumented, obfuscated, spaghetti code that was written by a drunken monkey gnarly?
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