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CSM Meeting Minutes - Gallente Ship Re-Balancing

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Nomistrav High Flyers RED.OverLord 73	Posted - 2012.08.03 11:49:00 - [1] - Quote I find it hard to believe that the reason the Brutix and Hyperion are imbalanced is because they don't give enough armor rep bonuses.. They're not being used because they don't have a good role, they're impractical. Good solo fighters/small gang fighters - maybe - but honestly how often is a Brutix fielded over a Hurricane/Drake which can over-power it both in terms of range and speed, completely negating anything the Brutix has going for it? Blasters are too short ranged to do anything, and railguns don't put out enough damage to make up for the disparity. Even with that in mind, a Hurricane would just neut it to death and negate any armor repair bonus it has - much less a "re-balanced" bonus in which it's been given -MORE- armor rep capabilities, effectively driving the point home. Sure, removing the Hurricane's utility slots might help but then you have the absolute ridiculousness that is the Drake and it's omnipotent buffer. Being a shield tank, it might be slow, but it's definitely going to out-run an active tanked Brutix. On to other ships; Myrmidon getting more med slots for reduced high slots? Sure, I could go for it, if armor modules were in the med slots. The Myrmidon is a specialist ship in the Gallente - you spend time training armor tank skills just to get into the Myrmidon/Lachesis/Arazu and get hit by a 'wtf' hammer involving shields. Roden Ships aren't much better, and thank god this was mentioned in the minutes, but they're all over the place. One minute they're embarking on a Blaster heavy fit (Enyo) and the next they're incorporating Heavy Missiles (Lachesis). I'm starting to question if the lack of Gallentean pilots has just left all of New Eden's Capsuleers wondering "what's a Gallente? What kind of fighting style do they have?" No mention of an Electronic Warfare re-balance either, Eos wasn't even mentioned. I hate to say it, but all of these re-balancing ideas don't seem to change the pressing issue that's been festering here in that Gallente have no specialization, and aren't good enough at generalization to make a pressing change. Fixing Sensor Dampeners might band-aid it but without a look over at the Gallente's leadership bonuses the only ships that will ever use them are the Lachesis/Arazu, which will persist in being used for heavy tackle.
Alexzandvar Douglass NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde 65	Posted - 2012.08.03 12:23:00 - [2] - Quote The problem is they are trying to Balance Gallente to go 1 vs 1 with another race, when the real effectiveness comes into play when it can work well in medium to large numbers. Not to mention keeping Gallente stuck in the tiny blaster box range will always be a detriment to them.
Skippermonkey Tactical Knightmare 1226	Posted - 2012.08.03 12:39:00 - [3] - Quote Nomistrav wrote: Being a shield tank, it might be slow wat? Nomistrav wrote: Gallente have no specialization drones much? My homeboys tried to warn me But that butt you got makes me so horny
Alexzandvar Douglass NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde 65	Posted - 2012.08.03 12:47:00 - [4] - Quote Skippermonkey wrote: Nomistrav wrote: Being a shield tank, it might be slow wat? Nomistrav wrote: Gallente have no specialization drones much? Then almost every gallente boat should have a drone bonus's rather than just 3-4 then calling it a racial specialization.
Gabrielle Lamb Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2012.08.03 12:53:00 - [5] - Quote Alexzandvar Douglass wrote: Skippermonkey wrote: Nomistrav wrote: Being a shield tank, it might be slow wat? Nomistrav wrote: Gallente have no specialization drones much? Then almost every gallente boat should have a drone bonus's rather than just 3-4 then calling it a racial specialization. Well they are basically doubling the amount of gallente Droneboats now with the new patches ^^ Can't remember where I read it but it seemed like there was a LOT of ships getting modified in to droneboats.
Caitlyn Tufy Refuge of Hope Lemniskate 22	Posted - 2012.08.03 13:00:00 - [6] - Quote Alexzandvar Douglass wrote: Skippermonkey wrote: Nomistrav wrote: Being a shield tank, it might be slow wat? Nomistrav wrote: Gallente have no specialization drones much? Then almost every gallente boat should have a drone bonus's rather than just 3-4 then calling it a racial specialization. Hehe, no. Caldari have a missile specialization too, yet only half of their ships has missile bonuses. Gallente ships generally have the largest drone bays and the most bandwidth, making them dedicated drone boats or even mixed vessels (an example is Thorax with 50 m3 drone bay, compared to, say, Caracal, with 10 m3). Just like other races, though, their sole focus is not on one weapon type. Just as Caldari use missiles and hybrids (with tendency towards railguns), so to do Gallente focus on drones and hybrids (tendency towards blasters), Amarr lasers and drones and Minmatar projectiles and missiles.
Hicksimus Hyperion Corporation 125	Posted - 2012.08.03 13:04:00 - [7] - Quote I don't understand why giving a brutix a better armor bonus would make me want to use it more. The only brutix I ever use is a shield scram brutix. Simple logic, the blasters only work in scram range, the only way I can get in scram range is shield fit because the armor fit makes it battleship slow, the only way I can get a respectable DPS advantage due to having no damage choice is to have 3 magstabs and to run 3 magstabs you're out of the slots you need for a good armor tank. The only way they could make me want to armor tank is by fixing armor rigs so I'm not slower than the second coming. Things I have realized from the EvE forums: Many people beleive cost means money and only money If you use it then it needs a buff. -áIf you don't use it then it needs to be nerfed.
Alexzandvar Douglass NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde 65	Posted - 2012.08.03 13:05:00 - [8] - Quote Caitlyn Tufy wrote: Alexzandvar Douglass wrote: Skippermonkey wrote: Nomistrav wrote: Being a shield tank, it might be slow wat? Nomistrav wrote: Gallente have no specialization drones much? Then almost every gallente boat should have a drone bonus's rather than just 3-4 then calling it a racial specialization. Hehe, no. Caldari have a missile specialization too, yet only half of their ships has missile bonuses. Gallente ships generally have the largest drone bays and the most bandwidth, making them dedicated drone boats or even mixed vessels (an example is Thorax with 50 m3 drone bay, compared to, say, Caracal, with 10 m3). Just like other races, though, their sole focus is not on one weapon type. Just as Caldari use missiles and hybrids (with tendency towards railguns), so to do Gallente focus on drones and hybrids (tendency towards blasters), Amarr lasers and drones and Minmatar projectiles and missiles. I mean active bonuses, you know that people don't just shove the biggest drones they can in their bay when they have a big bay? Small drones are used far more than larger ones because of ability to hit smaller stuff, plus speed. And you said half of Caldari boats have missle specialization, but not half of Gallente things have drone bonuses.
Takeshi Yamato Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 247	Posted - 2012.08.03 13:24:00 - [9] - Quote The problem is brawling is on life support, while kiting reigns supreme. As consequence, ships that are not good at kiting are just bad. The whole armor vs shield balance makes NO sense. The speed reduction of armor plates and rigs means giving up the chance to escape or catch a similarly sized target. It's a massive tactical disadvantage. Shield extenders/rigs get a non-penalty (under most circumstances), and if shield tanking didn't already dominate enough, there are now ASBs. Shield extenders should cause a significant reduction to max cap if they are supposed to have a meaningful tactical disadvantage like armor plates have. Force the kiters to fit a cap injector if they want to MWD around constantly. Tracking Enhancers should be reduced to 15% falloff. Force the kiters to commit to fighting at closer ranges and exposing themselves more. Autocannons should get a tracking nerf so that autocannon-based kiters become more vulnerable to tackling frigs which are supposed to counter them but in practice just get shredded easily. An analysis: fixing active tanking in a logical manner: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1693846
Halcyon Ingenium Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 153	Posted - 2012.08.03 13:34:00 - [10] - Quote Part of the problem with Gallente is armor tanking. CCP are wedded to the idea that there has to be two shield tank races and two armor tank races, you know, for balance. It might be better if they make the drone boats heavy armor tanks and the rest shield tank, with the appropriate changes in mid and low slots to accommodate. Some bonuses to drone range would be nice too. Then they'd kind of be more like the Minmatar, with each boat being special with its own needs on skill focus. That's a kind of balance to I guess, so CCP gets to keep up with its OCD on this weird balance idea. They say that in learning the game Go, it is best to lose your first 50 games as soon as possible. This is because Go is complex, and the only way you will start to get an idea of strategy and play is by first sucking and failing as hard as you can. So...In EVE, it is best to get your first 50 deaths by combat as soon as possible.
Syphon Lodian Fabled Enterprises 68	Posted - 2012.08.03 13:39:00 - [11] - Quote They need to re-balance Hybrids if they really want to "balance Gallente". Hybrids are obviously the problem, and will always be the problem. You either fight in a "little box" and hope you don't get kited by a critical factor of 500m or you fit Rails and try not to be useless. There really is no versatility in Hybrids. If you're trying to alpha with rails.. why wouldn't you just use Arty, and thus.. a minnie ship? I don't know, maybe I'm out of touch, or maybe I just hate blasters.
Hammer Borne Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2012.08.03 13:41:00 - [12] - Quote If drones were less stupid, they might be more useful in pvp, thus compensating for some of the speed shortfalls of armor tanked Gallente ships.
Halcyon Ingenium Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 153	Posted - 2012.08.03 13:46:00 - [13] - Quote Hammer Borne wrote: If drones were less stupid, they might be more useful in pvp, thus compensating for some of the speed shortfalls of armor tanked Gallente ships. Either less stupid or more control over their behavior. Like setting speed, orbit range, response to things like being targeted, as well as a response to events like 0% shields/armor/hull, etc. Drone control as it is is barely any control at all. That coupled with the drones being dumb as ****, makes drones sub-sub-optimal for pvp. They say that in learning the game Go, it is best to lose your first 50 games as soon as possible. This is because Go is complex, and the only way you will start to get an idea of strategy and play is by first sucking and failing as hard as you can. So...In EVE, it is best to get your first 50 deaths by combat as soon as possible.
Alexzandvar Douglass NUTS AND BOLTS MANUFACTURING En Garde 65	Posted - 2012.08.03 13:50:00 - [14] - Quote Syphon Lodian wrote: They need to re-balance Hybrids if they really want to "balance Gallente". Hybrids are obviously the problem, and will always be the problem. You either fight in a "little box" and hope you don't get kited by a critical factor of 500m or you fit Rails and try not to be useless. There really is no versatility in Hybrids. If you're trying to alpha with rails.. why wouldn't you just use Arty, and thus.. a minnie ship? I don't know, maybe I'm out of touch, or maybe I just hate blasters. Exactly, until Blasters and subsequently Gallente get out of the little box they will continue to be sub-optimal. Unless CCP implements ship to ship tractor beams or Gallente get a big speed boost.
Rordan D'Kherr Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 38	Posted - 2012.08.03 13:51:00 - [15] - Quote tl,dr?
Nomistrav High Flyers RED.OverLord 74	Posted - 2012.08.03 13:58:00 - [16] - Quote Honestly, the Gallente field nothing -but- support ships. They're not good at anything but that. The only true attack ship that they have as of current is the Talos, which was a recent addition, but we can't rest on the laurels of it. The Lachesis and Arazu are good, but they're support ships. Fix dampeners and they'll still be used as Heavy Tacklers as Dampeners aren't often fielded in favor of ECM, a more powerful EWAR variant. The Megathron is a good ship - I won't lie, but there are other ships that over-shadow it for sniping. Artillery especially, but the Rohk and Naga completely blow it out of the water for long-range engagements while the Talos completely neuters it for up-close-and-personal damage dealing. Why fly a bulky Battleship with 1,000 DPS when I can fly an agile shield-tanked Talos - or even more terrifying a Web/Scram Talos that can do the same damage capabilities? The Hyperion is just -useless- as it's bonuses are geared for solo or small gang warfare, which is impractical because you don't go roaming in Battleships. Leaving our T1 Dominix to be where all the weight rests for this class of ship. Don't even get me started on Cruisers - The Oneiros is blown out of the water by the Guardian for logistics and the Deimos/Ishtar are exactly as above - small gang/solo combat. Which leaves us with Capital Ships, which are already a problem and according to the minutes they're going to be getting some negative attention in the winter expansion. Titan's already received the tracking nerf so the Erebus is now just a blundering jump-bridge.
Nomistrav High Flyers RED.OverLord 74	Posted - 2012.08.03 13:59:00 - [17] - Quote Halcyon Ingenium wrote: Hammer Borne wrote: If drones were less stupid, they might be more useful in pvp, thus compensating for some of the speed shortfalls of armor tanked Gallente ships. Either less stupid or more control over their behavior. Like setting speed, orbit range, response to things like being targeted, as well as a response to events like 0% shields/armor/hull, etc. Drone control as it is is barely any control at all. That coupled with the drones being dumb as ****, makes drones sub-sub-optimal for pvp. Don't forget the fact that Drones are the only weapon system that can be -KILLED- rather than hampered.
MIrple BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team 36	Posted - 2012.08.03 14:03:00 - [18] - Quote The Idea of making SE lower cap could work as it would make the perma MWD kiting ships harder to manage. I think what would also help is if gallente had another speed agility bonus so they can be closer to shield tank ship speed. Its going to be a tricky fix that is for sure but Blasters as they are now are perfect. With Null you have a nice damage range and if you get someone into Void range they are going down quick. Rail guns need to be looked at some more I don't really have a good idea for these higher alpha slower cycle time maybe?
Vilnius Zar Ordo Ardish 100	Posted - 2012.08.03 14:42:00 - [19] - Quote OP should probably realise that there's more forms of PVP than blobbing the living **** out of eachother. And in those scenarios a slightly buffed Brutix would fair well. Amat victoria curam.
Halcyon Ingenium Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 153	Posted - 2012.08.03 16:54:00 - [20] - Quote Nomistrav wrote: Halcyon Ingenium wrote: Hammer Borne wrote: If drones were less stupid, they might be more useful in pvp, thus compensating for some of the speed shortfalls of armor tanked Gallente ships. Either less stupid or more control over their behavior. Like setting speed, orbit range, response to things like being targeted, as well as a response to events like 0% shields/armor/hull, etc. Drone control as it is is barely any control at all. That coupled with the drones being dumb as ****, makes drones sub-sub-optimal for pvp. Don't forget the fact that Drones are the only weapon system that can be -KILLED- rather than hampered. Oh yeah, totally forgot. I bet CCP won't do anything though, "Drones would be over-powered!" Yeah, uh, ok CCP. They say that in learning the game Go, it is best to lose your first 50 games as soon as possible. This is because Go is complex, and the only way you will start to get an idea of strategy and play is by first sucking and failing as hard as you can. So...In EVE, it is best to get your first 50 deaths by combat as soon as possible.
Eternal Error Exitus Acta Probant 99	Posted - 2012.08.03 16:59:00 - [21] - Quote I really don't think the myrm needs a slot layout change. Don't modify the armor rep bonuses on hyperion/brutix/etc. just yet. Armor tanking in general (particularly active) needs to get a hard look. Start by reducing the speed/mass penalties from plates and rigs. Also, the hyperion's main problem is tracking.
Jame Jarl Retief Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy 208	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:06:00 - [22] - Quote I find this thread hilarious. Why? Because I can find one just like it from a year ago. And one just like it from two years ago. And one just like it from three years ago. Etc., etc. All the same complaints, almost verbatim. I too am somewhat pessimistic about the "rebalance". So far, it seems more of the same old doctrine. Fixing dampening sounds good, but almost nobody would use it as jamming is still superior. More drone boats? Drones still suffer from the same issues of 5 years ago with no end in sight. Rails still have no role, as artillery has better alpha and long-range sniping was made obsolete with probing changes. Blasters still have ludicrously short range which will always keep them from being useful in all but a handful of very specific scenarios. Etc., etc. I don't see any of these changes suddenly making Gallente ships better or more desirable really. Worst part in all of this? When rebalancing is done, they will put a big fat checkmark next to it and not come back to it for years. So whatever happens, we'll likely be stuck with it for quite a while, no matter how broken it turns out to be.
Jerick Ludhowe Toxic Waste Industries 122	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:25:00 - [23] - Quote +1 low and a 10% rep per level bonus on the Brutix will make it a fantastic ship. I dno wtf half you clowns are talking about
Sentamon Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 98	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:31:00 - [24] - Quote Myrmidon swapping highs for mids? Sweeeeeeeeeeeet ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~
Spurty D00M. Northern Coalition. 396	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:32:00 - [25] - Quote Race, StrongWeaponType, AverageWeaponType, WeakWeaponType Amarr, Crystals, Missiles,drones Caldari, Missiles, Hybrids,drones Gallente, Drones, Hybrids,Missiles Minmatar, Projectiles, (Mixed weapon systems at best), drones It's not rock-rock-rock. I somewhat agree with the op. Some ships just excel over others of the same tier and class. ---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.
MIrple BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team 36	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:36:00 - [26] - Quote Spurty wrote: Race, StrongWeaponType, AverageWeaponType, WeakWeaponType Amarr, Crystals, Missiles,drones Caldari, Missiles, Hybrids,drones Gallente, Drones, Hybrids,Missiles Minmatar, Projectiles, (Mixed weapon systems at best), drones It's not rock-rock-rock. I somewhat agree with the op. Some ships just excel over others of the same tier and class. I would argue that its more like Hybrids, Drones, Missile for Gallente.
Irya Boone Escadron leader La League des mondes libres 27	Posted - 2012.08.03 19:02:00 - [27] - Quote really ..... gallente need a serious lift and like someone said in the beginning of the thread .. why shouldn't I play solo effectively like other race , why should i be in a med or large fleet to be effective in my Gallente ship when others are really effective in their .. why such a gap between Drake and others BC in lvl 4 ? why ? AND if ccp want us to be stuck in the box of blaster .. give us velocity bonus .. give Us DPS bonus because We use LOW slot for the TANK when shield ship can seriously tank and have a ******* huge DPS because damage mod are in low slots and Shield in med .. SO please ccp , thx.
baltec1 Bat Country 1794	Posted - 2012.08.03 19:06:00 - [28] - Quote Gallente should have been the sheild tankers and the caldari the armour.
Lin-Young Borovskova Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 603	Posted - 2012.08.03 19:16:00 - [29] - Quote Skippermonkey wrote: Nomistrav wrote: Being a shield tank, it might be slow wat? Nomistrav wrote: Gallente have no specialization drones much? You missed the point about Gallente. Gallente are 1st BLASTER SHIPS with support Drones that used to be better on gallente hulls because Thorax could throw at your face 10 of them, this is gone for a very long time now, therefore your statement is wrong. Gallente have a few specialised Drone ships, a little bit more than any other but major gallente ship line IS blaster based. brb
Hicksimus Hyperion Corporation 132	Posted - 2012.08.03 19:18:00 - [30] - Quote Jerick Ludhowe wrote: +1 low and a 10% rep per level bonus on the Brutix will make it a fantastic ship. I dno wtf half you clowns are talking about I realize this may be sarcasm but just for fun here are some numbers if they used your idea. The result is a 500DPS tank Brutix that has 55 seconds of cap with 2 medium boosters which only fits if you have dread skills or implants(using electron blasters). It goes about 1000m/s and has less than 5km of gun range, 1.5km to 2km of range if you want to do good damage. The end result is 479gun dps with faction antimatter or 525 gun DPS with Void(good luck tracking at 2km). The situation only gets worse when a cane lands 2 neuts on you, not to mention with the right damage type it breaks your tank even when it's working. So how about we drop to a 250dps tank with 1 rep? Well now you have 1m 31s of cap with 2 boosters, and the cane ROFLstomps you because you have no buffer and a poor active tank. Now let's check out how that stacks up against the common mouth breather drake for users of auto lock back and F1. It has 290DPS tank, 76000EHP to the Brutix at 26000. It does have 200 less dps but it has about 73km more range and it has 4 minutes of cap. Also, it's faster by 100m/s. Things I have realized from the EvE forums: Many people beleive cost means money and only money If you use it then it needs a buff. -áIf you don't use it then it needs to be nerfed.

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