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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.10.21 18:09:00 -
[1]
OK ... I looked and couldn't find anything on this - although it seems so obvious to me that I would expect this to have come up before.
In your People and Places/Places page there is a button at the bottom of the page to "Add Bookmark".
Clicking this button brings up a display showing a purported set of coordinates and a default name.
You are allowed to change the name.
The coordinates of the book mark being created end up being wherever you are when you hit OK to create the book mark, though it appears that the coordinates displayed are your location when you hit the Add Bookmark button. This would be the same spot (I imagine) if you weren't moving - but if you are in mid warp - it lets you drop a new book mark between two existing bookmarks (or other warpable points).
What I'm proposing - and asking if there is any reason not to do this - is that we can just type in the coordinates of the bookmark we want to create - and thus be able to warp to any point in the system - just like you would expect a space ship to be able to do.
There could be other things create to help this process, such as an coordinate system over lay, similar to the tactical over lay we have now - which could be toggled on and off.
In any case, even if it were just something you had to figure out on your own - letting us manually type in the coordinates of the place we wanted to warp to - would be a vast improvement over what we have today.
Right now - the method of warping your space ship - is to take an existing bookmark and set course to that point - regardless of whether or not that's really where you want to go.
So - what you have to do - is to use Missions, Exploration or dropping bookmarks between existing bookmarks or other warpable points to create bookmarks.
This is absurd.
Why can't we just type in the coordinates of the location we want to warp to?
To me ... it looks like this was a capability that previously existed and was removed. If so - why?
We SHOULD be able to pick any point in space within a system - and warp to that specific point. The current method of relying on whatever bookmarks were already created by some other method - is absurd.
Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Mcalter
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Posted - 2010.10.21 18:24:00 -
[2]
I would certainly make safe spots easier to make. |
Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.10.21 18:31:00 -
[3]
The other thing it would do is to make location information exchange easier.
Right now - you cannot send a book mark through EVE-Mail or chat.
If you could just type in the coordinates - all you'd have to do - is to tell someone what they were. They could type the coordinates in themselves - and just go there.
You could put Corporate Bookmark Coordinates in the Message of the Day.
Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Sigras
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Posted - 2010.10.21 18:40:00 -
[4]
The problem is deep safe spots, CCP just went through an argouos process to remove people's ability to make deep safe spots, why would they add it back in?
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.10.21 18:47:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Sigras The problem is deep safe spots, CCP just went through an argouos process to remove people's ability to make deep safe spots, why would they add it back in?
The coordinates you could enter would be governed by whatever bounds checks CCP decided to apply.
Right now - there are limits to where you can put things - those limits would apply to whatever coordinates you could enter.
If you entered in coordinates that were out of bounds - you'd get an error.
The thing is - there are a lot of places - like 99% of the solar system - that you cannot get to because you don't have a warpable point there. You are reliant on randomly generated points such as exploration sites or mission spaces - or the happen stance that some place is between two other warp able points.
Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.21 18:49:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Sigras The problem is deep safe spots, CCP just went through an argouos process to remove people's ability to make deep safe spots, why would they add it back in?
on top of that:
1. makes it too easy to create warpins get a rough bookmark. (e.g. the gate/moon) edit the bookmark and check in system map if it is where you want it. done. who needs probes?
2. atm the space you have to search through to probe out people is somewhat limited to "around/close to celestials". if this proposal would go through, even with a limitation to the range (which would be doable), i would just move my safespots at max range below/above the sun. or as a max range "deep" safe (on the allowed edge), that is in line with my usual align out spots. "you saw me warping out to p10? hah i am sitting 20 AUs behind it. :p"
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.10.21 19:12:00 -
[7]
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Sigras The problem is deep safe spots, CCP just went through an argouos process to remove people's ability to make deep safe spots, why would they add it back in?
on top of that:
1. makes it too easy to create warpins get a rough bookmark. (e.g. the gate/moon) edit the bookmark and check in system map if it is where you want it. done. who needs probes?
2. atm the space you have to search through to probe out people is somewhat limited to "around/close to celestials". if this proposal would go through, even with a limitation to the range (which would be doable), i would just move my safespots at max range below/above the sun. or as a max range "deep" safe (on the allowed edge), that is in line with my usual align out spots. "you saw me warping out to p10? hah i am sitting 20 AUs behind it. :p"
1) Warpins (warping right on top of someone) would be somewhat easier to create - but then there are already enough wrecks, cans, asteroids in most areas to make that a moot point - i.e. you can already do that well enough as it is - and this wouldn't make it that much easier. Being able to create a book mark via coordinates - would NOT - have any effect on spaces where there was a warp in point, any more than book marks do now. No mater what you try to warp to in those spaces - you come in at the beacon.
2) You can search entire solar systems with probes now. So it wouldn't make any difference. That said - if it did make a difference that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. The only difference I can see - is that they might have to work a little harder at it - but even then ... not that much. So - what this would do - if only to a minor extent - would be to restore some of the balance that was lost when those deep safe spots were removed.
Now in addition to that - your statement about the proximity to celestials is incorrect. Go run a bunch of missions and do a lot of exploration in some system, book marking all the spots you can, then bring up the system map. You get book marks all over the place. You get book marks very high above and very far below the system plane. The only difference this would make - is that YOU could control which of those spaces you wanted to go to. Instead of having to "run a bunch of missions and do a lot of exploration" to get a location you want - such as away from any celestials. You could just pick a spot and go there.
This doesn't really change the nature of bookmarks - it just gives the player more control over them. He can go right where he wants to go - without relying on some tedious process of randomly generating bookmarks until he gets one he likes.
Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Sigras
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Posted - 2010.10.21 19:27:00 -
[8]
PVP 101: if you have a warpable object in your safe spot, it isn't ...
Additionally this suggestion takes the player skill out of making hard to find safe spots and I'd like to keep as much player skill in the game as possible ...
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.10.21 20:02:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 21/10/2010 20:06:44
Originally by: Sigras PVP 101: if you have a warpable object in your safe spot, it isn't ...
Additionally this suggestion takes the player skill out of making hard to find safe spots and I'd like to keep as much player skill in the game as possible ...
1) Bookmarks - which all the safespots I've ever heard of are made from - are warpable only to you and anyone you've given a copy of the bookmark to.
The previous discussion involving warpable objects was about using them for warp ins - or - as objects to warp BETWEEN to get the safe spot process going. Of course - bookmarks placed between celestials are not good safe spots - that is only the start of the process - which then involves creating several such book marks - and warping between those book marks YOU have just created and dropping your safe spot book marks there. Using Celestials as a basis for generating safe spots is an inferior method to basing them off of bookmarks from exploration or mission space - but if you don't have any of those book marks - it is a place to start.
2) This does not in the slightest way reduce the skill of producing a bookmark - it just removes the tedium. What skill is involved in randomly generating bookmarks through missions and exploration until you get one you are happy with? Are you talking about an exploit? Using some method that few people know about because it is based on a bug? If not - there are a limited number of ways to create bookmarks - all of which require either random generation or warping between existing bookmarks. The skill required in entering coordinates yourself - is understanding the coordinates system used in solar systems and how to use it to place your bookmarks accurately. There's more skill involved in that - than there is in randomly generating book marks.
Lets talk about Sand Boxes.
Suppose you were a child playing with your cowboys/soldiers/dinosaurs/robots or whatever out back in the sand box - and you wanted to move your toy from one part of the sand box to another. The very idea that you would have to place a pebble at the spot you wanted to go to - and then only go to that pebble - would be idiotic. The idea - that in order to place a pebble - you would have to close your eyes, spin around five times and drop the pebble - would be insane.
The idea of warping a space ship to a set of coordinates - that you enter - isn't that bad. The idea that you had to get those coordinates from some randomly generated item - is just stupid.
This in no way changes bookmarks or the way they work - it just gives the player more control. That allows the player to use their skill - rather than some randomly generated point - to control their actions.
Being in control of what you do in this game - is what the sand box analogy is all about. Entering your own coordinates so that you can warp anywhere you are allowed to is more like sand box play than being dependent on randomly generated game events.
Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.10.21 21:04:00 -
[10]
As long as your ships blows up if you warp to the coordinates that correspond to the interior of a planet, moon, or some other solid object.
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Aqriue
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Posted - 2010.10.21 22:38:00 -
[11]
Use a new series of probes to make deep spaces in system that does not require a signature to be scanned out. Its always baffled me why...
Ensign: Captain, we have the cooridinates from the probes. Captain: Excellent job Ensign, prepare to warp to them. Ensign: I am sorry sorry, but we cannot. Captain: Why not ensign? Ensign: There is nothing out there. Even by triagulating several probes, there is nothing out there. Captain: But you have coordiantes of probes emiting a signal and the other probes detecting it, in between them is the point when all probe signals overlap. Surely you can warp to that point in space? Ensign: We cannot sir. there is simply nothing out there to warp to. Captain: I see. . . .KHHHAAAAANNNNNNNNNN!!!!!
You basicly move some probes near planets, move one out to deep space and click get a point in the middle of no where (offset by the maxium distance from the last celestial). Move the deep space probe over and you now have a second.
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.10.21 23:57:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Aqriue Use a new series of probes to make deep spaces in system that does not require a signature to be scanned out. Its always baffled me why...
Ensign: Captain, we have the cooridinates from the probes. Captain: Excellent job Ensign, prepare to warp to them. Ensign: I am sorry sorry, but we cannot. Captain: Why not ensign? Ensign: There is nothing out there. Even by triagulating several probes, there is nothing out there. Captain: But you have coordiantes of probes emiting a signal and the other probes detecting it, in between them is the point when all probe signals overlap. Surely you can warp to that point in space? Ensign: We cannot sir. there is simply nothing out there to warp to. Captain: I see. . . .KHHHAAAAANNNNNNNNNN!!!!!
You basicly move some probes near planets, move one out to deep space and click get a point in the middle of no where (offset by the maxium distance from the last celestial). Move the deep space probe over and you now have a second.
Ha! Ha!
The thing is - this is just another work around. What you should be able to do - is warp directly to any point in a solar system you want. I mean - hell - the Millennium Falcon could do it! Of course - the Millennium Falcon actually did have to worry about warping through a star - whereas in EVE we routinely warp right through planets, space stations and asteroids ... have your bookmark set to one of them - and you don't warp into the middle of it - you are off set from it. *shrug*
One of the things I looked at before I made my edit - was whether or not you could warp to your own probes. I mean - you sure as hell know where they are. You can SEE where your prob is on the solar system map - but no - you can't warp to it. Right click on your probes in the scanner display or on the map - and Warp To is not an option.
Anyway, my guess is that the way the game works now - most of the things you would want to warp to - the game gives you a bookmark for. You can warp to asteroids, stations, planets and gates by right clicking on the screen. You can warp to missions by the link in the mission briefing. Probes will give you a link you can bookmark - if they find something @ 100%. The only time people need to get off the beaten path is if they are setting up a safe spot for something. My Guess here is that CCP actually doesn't want you to have safe spots - which is why they took all the deep safe spots away - so that everyone would be able to be scanned down (unless they go to their safe spot and cloak). Which of course ... just goes to show the difference between a developers propaganda about sand boxes ... and the reality of the way they force people to play their games. *shrug*
Anyway ... thanks for all the feed back. Unless someone comes up with a "Oh yeah ... they talked about this a few years back and didn't do it for this reason ...", I'm just assuming that CCP has things this way because they don't care enough to change it. Most people don't care enough to warp anywhere the game doesn't already give them a bookmark to and those who do ... can kludge their way around it making safe spot book marks the way we do now.
I still think this should be done ... but ... it probably isn't going to happen.
*shrug*
Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2010.10.22 00:01:00 -
[13]
Why use a bookmark when you can just teleport instead? Avoids that pesky POS shields issue.
Originally by: CCP Lemur THIS IS GOD: ... IF YOU HAVE ANY MORE REQUESTS I'M AVAILABLE SUNDAY FROM 10:30 TO 12:00 TO RECEIVE YOUR PRAYERS.
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Aqriue
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Posted - 2010.10.22 06:29:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk Ha! Ha!
The thing is - this is just another work around. What you should be able to do - is warp directly to any point in a solar system you want.
Yeah, but it is a system that would probably be agreed on by most players. One thing I hate about nullsec is having bookmarks for every gate to avoid warp bubbles, which I haven't really bothered with because I don't want to be on grid while MWD in a frig. Funny thing is, because of bookmarks causing the server to act like a fatman on a treadmill running for the all you can eat buffet, we got WTZ. Imagine that a single system as 3 jump gates, you need at least 2-3 BMs around the gate to position for best effect, thats at least 9 BMs for that system, now imagine there are at least 30 something gates in a constelation and more then that in a region. Thats alot of book marks (if one player has 5 thousand BMS, 42k players x 5k BM equal 210,000,000 BMs which is exaggerated but its still ) and twice now it has given TQ a fit yet CCP hasn't really done much to fix the problem because the BMs are so valuable in nullsec. I imagine you could position your probes around a jumpgate (stupidiest idea ever, f%@&ing! bottlenecks making easy kills) so you can make a warp to point near the gate with out having to physically be on grid beforehand and AFK a frig a few hundred KMs away from it, at the same time anyone in system can scan you down while your trying to get a good warp to point.
As for warping to anypoint in a solar system I agree. I am keeping an eye on another space MMO very much like EVE but better in what it is trying to achieve (3 races no aliens, non consential PVP but no value in podding as there is no SP, warp to 200 million systems without gates, you actually have to chase targets to catch them while they achieve warp speed instead of a BS 3x SEBO and 3 additional remote sensor booters = I-WIN! at gates even against frigs). Its called Infinity Quest for Earth, still in devlopment but it went Alpha testing this year so its looking promising (independly coded by one guy for nearly 5 years I think )
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.10.22 20:49:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Aqriue
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk Ha! Ha!
The thing is - this is just another work around. What you should be able to do - is warp directly to any point in a solar system you want.
Yeah, but it is a system that would probably be agreed on by most players. One thing I hate about nullsec is having bookmarks for every gate to avoid warp bubbles, which I haven't really bothered with because I don't want to be on grid while MWD in a frig. Funny thing is, because of bookmarks causing the server to act like a fatman on a treadmill running for the all you can eat buffet, we got WTZ. Imagine that a single system as 3 jump gates, you need at least 2-3 BMs around the gate to position for best effect, thats at least 9 BMs for that system, now imagine there are at least 30 something gates in a constelation and more then that in a region. Thats alot of book marks (if one player has 5 thousand BMS, 42k players x 5k BM equal 210,000,000 BMs which is exaggerated but its still ) and twice now it has given TQ a fit yet CCP hasn't really done much to fix the problem because the BMs are so valuable in nullsec. I imagine you could position your probes around a jumpgate (stupidiest idea ever, f%@&ing! bottlenecks making easy kills) so you can make a warp to point near the gate with out having to physically be on grid beforehand and AFK a frig a few hundred KMs away from it, at the same time anyone in system can scan you down while your trying to get a good warp to point.
As for warping to anypoint in a solar system I agree. I am keeping an eye on another space MMO very much like EVE but better in what it is trying to achieve (3 races no aliens, non consential PVP but no value in podding as there is no SP, warp to 200 million systems without gates, you actually have to chase targets to catch them while they achieve warp speed instead of a BS 3x SEBO and 3 additional remote sensor booters = I-WIN! at gates even against frigs). Its called Infinity Quest for Earth, still in devlopment but it went Alpha testing this year so its looking promising (independly coded by one guy for nearly 5 years I think )
I guess I'd have to disagree about most players wanting to carry around a probe launcher taking up one of their high slots ...
*shrug*
Interesting that there's another space ship game out there. I've heard of at least one other start up (joystick based) but didn't hear any more. But then I'm sorta out of touch with what's new.
Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Lucy Furr
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Posted - 2010.10.22 21:19:00 -
[16]
This was a feature back in the start of the game. we would make bookmarks way out of range and had insta safe spots. It was removed years ago I'm not sure when it was because it was so long ago my mind thinks it was around 2003-4. the main reason it will not be added is because it was removed.
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Infinion
Caldari Endless Destruction Imperial 0rder
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Posted - 2010.10.22 23:19:00 -
[17]
i support this, makes life easier
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Roosterton
Internet Spaceship Raiders
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Posted - 2010.10.23 03:25:00 -
[18]
Hold them off while I punch in the hyperspace coordinates! -------- Enemy corps raided into disbandment: Three.
Originally by: Tarminic
OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?! |
Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.10.23 10:56:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Lucy Furr This was a feature back in the start of the game. we would make bookmarks way out of range and had insta safe spots. It was removed years ago I'm not sure when it was because it was so long ago my mind thinks it was around 2003-4. the main reason it will not be added is because it was removed.
Thanks. That was what I suspected from the way they included the coordinates but wouldn't let you do anything with them.
Of course - what they did - was take a quick programming fix by just disabling the ability to input the coordinates - instead of FIXING the problem - which was that people could input coordinates that were out of bounds. I worked in software development for a couple of decades and this is a classic example of lazy programming.
"Lets see ... I could fix this the right way but it would take more time - or I could just screw the users. Screwing the Users is easier. No brainer there."
Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Taran Tenus
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Posted - 2010.10.23 14:04:00 -
[20]
Maybe we just need an 'I win' button installed on the GUI?
I'm a troll!
No, seriously though...it is kind of crazy why you cannot either send BMs to others or enter co-ordinates for a BM.
Mo
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Valandril
Caldari Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2010.10.23 14:08:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Taran Tenus Maybe we just need an 'I win' button installed on the GUI?
I'm a troll!
No, seriously though...it is kind of crazy why you cannot either send BMs to others or enter co-ordinates for a BM.
Mo
Because then i will pinpoint anyone faster than you will launch 2 probes.
Recruit me if you dare |
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