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Aliksr	Posted - 2005.01.06 21:35:00 - [1] put as simply as possible: prices have to rise to the point where slots go unrented yulai ded factory slots now cost 7mil per week. lots of people are trying to sell them. any day now some will go unrented. that's right, unrented factory slots in yulai ded. that's the market working lab slots cost almost nothing to hold, but upwards of 60mil to buy. the result? hoarding. more lab slots will not fix this as prices for slot rental rise, slots will go unrented. prices will stableise. remote locations will be cheaper. newbies will have access to those cheaper slots. hoarding will stop. unproductive shuttle BPO research will stop. let the prices rise! either that, or please shut up and die
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2005.01.06 21:42:00 - [2] Originally by: Aliksr put as simply as possible: prices have to rise to the point where slots go unrented yulai ded factory slots now cost 7mil per week. lots of people are trying to sell them. any day now some will go unrented. that's right, unrented factory slots in yulai ded. that's the market working lab slots cost almost nothing to hold, but upwards of 60mil to buy. the result? hoarding. more lab slots will not fix this as prices for slot rental rise, slots will go unrented. prices will stableise. remote locations will be cheaper. newbies will have access to those cheaper slots. hoarding will stop. unproductive shuttle BPO research will stop. let the prices rise! either that, or please shut up and die Well the price of our lab slots is now over 130k isk each, and not even in a high traffic system. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Aliksr	Posted - 2005.01.06 21:46:00 - [3] oh so you mean you have to mine for 10 minutes per week to support it! well that is certainly a HUGE discouragement for continuing to own that slot prices will continue to rise until SOMEONE decides it's not worth it. if your slot is used productively, you should be happy to pay that. otherwise, UNRENT IT
Dianabolic	Posted - 2005.01.06 23:15:00 - [4] Originally by: Aliksr oh so you mean you have to mine for 10 minutes per week to support it! well that is certainly a HUGE discouragement for continuing to own that slot prices will continue to rise until SOMEONE decides it's not worth it. if your slot is used productively, you should be happy to pay that. otherwise, UNRENT IT You cna earn 7,000,000isk per 10 minutes of mining? What are you mining and where?
Aliksr	Posted - 2005.01.06 23:44:00 - [5] i'm talking about lab slots here, not factory slots here, and referring to rentals 'soaring' as high as 130k per week
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2005.01.07 00:15:00 - [6] Originally by: Aliksr i'm talking about lab slots here, not factory slots here, and referring to rentals 'soaring' as high as 130k per week I didnt complain about the price I just stated what it cost atm. Stop being rude. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Dianabolic	Posted - 2005.01.07 00:32:00 - [7] Originally by: Aliksr i'm talking about lab slots here, not factory slots here, and referring to rentals 'soaring' as high as 130k per week Yes, and if they 'soar' to 7m a week, what will u say then?
Aliksr	Posted - 2005.01.07 01:23:00 - [8] for all lab slots to cost 7m per week, every single lab slot in the game has to remain rented at this price. do you think that is possible? and i'm not trying to be rude, in fact it's stupid of me to come accross that way because then no one will listen to what i have to say. so i'll try and stop )
Stregone	Posted - 2005.01.07 05:04:00 - [9] This rising cost thing nothing but a band-aid, an infected band-aid. Eventualy only frickin' rich people will be able to afford a slot.
Lygos	Posted - 2005.01.07 05:44:00 - [10] I don't know, I own a pair in a backwater station and the price keeps jumping an average of 25% cumulative every 4 or 5 days or whatever the billing period is. I might have gotten lucky, but it only took me a few hours to locate them originally. I think it will get more expensive rather quickly so I may be looking to offload them cheaply in the near future. They are only of marginal value to me at the moment. The tech1 market volume is rather low where I am. Maybe a million isk in sales possible for an average given item in the whole region per day. Maybe 50 units of your average 20k item. This is actually a pretty consistent figure over about 40 viable tech1 products I scan weekly. Somewhere like lonetrek is better, but also has more competition. Damn I'm derailing my own thought process again. If you get a tech2 bpo, or partial access to one, and have serious inclinations towards public manufacturing, then you can automatically afford access to a labslot at any fee.
Aliksr	Posted - 2005.01.07 06:52:00 - [11] Edited by: Aliksr on 07/01/2005 06:53:12 Originally by: Stregone This rising cost thing nothing but a band-aid, an infected band-aid. Eventualy only frickin' rich people will be able to afford a slot. No this is not true. most labslots are not currently being used productively. they are hoarded. this 'bandaid' called 'the market' will solve that problem. the price will stableize, by definition, at the point at which slots go unrented. that means the secondary-market for slots in fringe regions will dissappear. why pay 10m isk for a slot in ourvoura***aiidanien when there are some free? that removes the only economic incentive for hoarding lab slots edit: word filter for k-k-k? oooook
000Hunter000	Posted - 2005.01.07 11:38:00 - [12] Almost feels ashamed of having a shuttle BPO in one of his labs right now, but it's there for a reason, i want it to go up a few ME levels so i can build shuttles cheaper. Aliksr is right, costs now are around 100 to 150k per lab in the more remote regions, thats nothing, doing 1 or 2 missions and there paid for. Finally the hoarders that have like 15 labs (spread out over more alts) will finally pay the price for their greed. If u want a labslot bad? Don't buy one just take a day or 2 out of your gametime to fly around in a shuttle from one station to another. I did that and that and it worked for me. If u have more then 5 slots, then don't be a greedy insert rude word here and sell a few cheap or hand them out to a corpm8 or a newb. Thinks about 15 slots at 3 to 7 mill a pop a week and laughs signature? What signature? ;)
Thyro	Posted - 2005.01.07 12:43:00 - [13] Originally by: Aliksr put as simply as possible: prices have to rise to the point where slots go unrented yulai ded factory slots now cost 7mil per week. lots of people are trying to sell them. any day now some will go unrented. that's right, unrented factory slots in yulai ded. that's the market working lab slots cost almost nothing to hold, but upwards of 60mil to buy. the result? hoarding. more lab slots will not fix this as prices for slot rental rise, slots will go unrented. prices will stableise. remote locations will be cheaper. newbies will have access to those cheaper slots. hoarding will stop. unproductive shuttle BPO research will stop. let the prices rise! either that, or please shut up and die I've a better solution for you... CCP raise the game price fee around 500% and keep increasing it every 6 months I'm sure that many players will simply quit playing EVE and go to other more interesting games... therefore more LAB slots will become available soon! I'm sorry but ur proposal is just absurd
Karl Borhman	Posted - 2005.01.07 14:40:00 - [14] Originally by: Thyro I've a better solution for you... CCP raise the game price fee around 500% and keep increasing it every 6 months I'm sure that many players will simply quit playing EVE and go to other more interesting games... therefore more LAB slots will become available soon! I'm sorry but ur proposal is just absurd[/quote Are you a socialist? An integral part of EVE is it's on-line economy. If you can't figure a way to make ISK in this game, then EVE isn't the game for you. I laugh when I hear people complain about 150K a week in lab rental fees. Anyone with a hoarder or better and half a brain can make several million ISK a night (more than you can with mining) just by hauling items from station to station. Hell sometimes I've been able to make $300K ISK in one docking in the same system. It takes all of 15 min. I easily pay for a weeks worth of factory operation fees in a couple of hours, not even counting the profit I'm making from items I sell. The simple fact is that this requires patience and investigation. Perhaps some of you just don't have it? I'm reminded of the players that want to shave off 0.1 of every item just to get the order. I laugh at you guys fighting each other selling your missiles for 6-7 ISK ea when I can sell the same one for 40-60 ISK at a different locale. Sure, I don't sell as many, but when I sell 5000 of them I walk away with 375K ISK, while you are lucky to make 30K ISK. Simple lesson. Don't try making money in saturated markets. __________________________________ Mining ... the other white meat. __________________________________
Carter Burke	Posted - 2005.01.07 15:54:00 - [15] Originally by: Aliksr for all lab slots to cost 7m per week, every single lab slot in the game has to remain rented at this price. do you think that is possible? and i'm not trying to be rude, in fact it's stupid of me to come accross that way because then no one will listen to what i have to say. so i'll try and stop ) Incorrect. How did you even arrive at that conclusion? Every single factory in the game is not rented, and yet Yulai is up to 7M a week. Lab slots will come loose for you eventually - it just will take a while longer. I need the four I have, but got rid of the other eight almost immediately after this new rental arrangement began - I didn't really need them, and I forsaw that they were simply going to become money sinks. Ergo, I sold them. Soon enough, selling them won't be an option any more, since rents will be as big as the sale price. Once people start relinquishing their labs, others will get a shot at it. CB
Aliksr	Posted - 2005.01.07 19:23:00 - [16] Originally by: Carter Burke Soon enough, selling them won't be an option any more, since rents will be as big as the sale price. Once people start relinquishing their labs, others will get a shot at it that's exactly my point and to clarify the 7mil statement, i mean i don't think the market will support that. it's possible in core systmes, but it's not likely everywhere, so the market won't price out earnest newcomers
Tobiaz	Posted - 2005.01.07 20:06:00 - [17] Does anyone know how the prices are now calculated exactly? What determines whether the fee at a station will rise? All slots in the station rented? 50% of the slots in the station rented? And how fast will it drop again?
goeroe	Posted - 2005.01.08 11:19:00 - [18] I am all for it. Just raise the rental fee with 10% for every week or so. At the end, if u unrent the lab, u cant rent it back for lets say 2 days. After these 2 days u can rerent at the original (low install) price. A LOT of labs will be freed up this way, and everyone has the chance to rent one .. sooner or later
Helmut 314	Posted - 2005.01.08 16:43:00 - [19] Well, say what you want, the current system for raising lab prices is stupid. Same for factories and offices. See, noone can in the current system decide to move to a cheaper location, cause theyre all taken. And as for how many slots that are hoarded, noone but CCP knows and they aint telling. Either fix the lab system and make ME-research and bp-copying an agent service instead of slot based or hand out more slots. ___________________________________ Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson
Baerd	Posted - 2005.01.08 19:25:00 - [20] Give every player account - not character alt - 1 lab slot. Free.... works at 1/4 (or even 1/10th) the rate of a normal lab slot. Enough to experiment with the system.. try things out... actually use on a regular basis if you're desperate.. but not enough to discourage a desire for real lab slots. It gives new players a chance to see what the system's like and decide if they enjoy research without the frustration of trying to find a lab slot and (now) afford it for any length of time.
Aliksr	Posted - 2005.01.09 07:13:00 - [21] Originally by: Baerd Give every player account - not character alt - 1 lab slot. Free.... works at 1/4 (or even 1/10th) the rate of a normal lab slot. Enough to experiment with the system.. try things out... actually use on a regular basis if you're desperate.. but not enough to discourage a desire for real lab slots. It gives new players a chance to see what the system's like and decide if they enjoy research without the frustration of trying to find a lab slot and (now) afford it for any length of time. actually that's a fantastic idea if you make it a bit more market oriented and have lab slot efficiencies like station refine services. that way you get variability in price, so people short on time and people short on capital can both get what they want and can afford. i like it
Firebrid Hunter	Posted - 2005.01.09 12:31:00 - [22] yeah i like that idea too Would save people trawling across the whole of eve for a week to find a lab, only to find out that they don't enjoy it or can't make the money to run it efficiently... Nice idea
Sarina	Posted - 2005.01.09 22:05:00 - [23] No Dianabolic: These guys mine for 10 minutes to pay their slot that cost 130 000 ISK, then just camp it forever. The real cost might be 100 - 130 000 isk, and that about what you revieve from one average lvl 3 agent mission as well. Easy to pay and then just keep the slots in one attempt to have any fool pay that beforementioned 7 mil or whatever. Quote: Aliksr said. No this is not true. most labslots are not currently being used productively. they are hoarded. this 'bandaid' called 'the market' will solve that problem. Correct, the labslots are camped, even in my very remotely located system I sometimes hear the call from a guy who tried to sell slots. CCP the current situation is EXTREMELY counterproductive to the whole game! Looking for a labslot for a week only! Wow! That be a lucky person indeed, im at 3 weeks currently and no luck. (No im not interested in one lets say 38 jumps away, it have to be relatively local) Corp used to have four slots, but with the game bugging our rental out it caused the corp producer / refiner to quit. Now I taken Sarina to a role she wasnt intended for, to research prints and then produce. But seems I never get there since there no slots to find!
Sarina	Posted - 2005.01.09 22:18:00 - [24] And yes, not the least important. Labslots used to sell for 1 or perhaps 2 million. That some guys now ask 5 - 7 million is because the rental for a slot now go up with time. You be a complete fool going for that! In short, you will be paying the guy for camping the labslot!!!
Firebrid Hunter	Posted - 2005.01.10 16:38:00 - [25] Yeah a guy wanted to sell me one for 30mill....it's getting ridiculous. Labs need to be used for production, not for hoarding and selling off
Dirtball	Posted - 2005.01.10 17:19:00 - [26] I like the idea behind the current system of increasing the fee gradually. It's cool too cause it looks like it's starting to pay off. I think someone asked a question and this may be the answer: I believe that with open slots the price will gradually decrease over time at probably about the same speed it increased. I managed to get rid of a few corp offices that I had on my alts account, rent was getting up to 980k, I didn't sell them though, I just gave them to a good home.
Vigilant	Posted - 2005.01.10 19:00:00 - [27] I will chime in ... 1. Lab Slots are too expensive now as is.. 2. Raising Lab Slot costs will only raise prices on BPC's...not good for the more casual player 3. Adding more slots will not solve the problem Solutions: 1. Add more slots...will not work..they will to get hoarded up..and labs slot will conitue to rise in price. 2. Give evey player a Lab..Bascially you will destroy the economy of EVE..since everything needs a BP(O/C) to build. BPCs will become worthless...and everyone will just buy the "O" and research ME ...for Corp/Personal use. 3. CCP needs to cap the current prices on Labs as now. Prices should never raise above 100k per rental period. 4. CCP needs to add Labs for POS and possible a VERY Expensive deployable personal lab. (maybe two labs in it, only deployable in .6 or less, can be attacked by a corp your at war with, and you can place defenses on it). Basically....I don't see many happy solutions....other than adding more...and that will not solve it... I am at a loss now....thought POS would help..but the bunches of crap needed to run them ...is too extreme for smaller corps.
TotensBurntCorpse	Posted - 2005.01.10 20:06:00 - [28] I will chime in ... 1. Lab Slots are too expensive now as is.. I disagree, lab prices should be tied to how profitable the research being done is. IE if ur researching an ME 1000 shuttle print then u should pay thru the nose to tye up the lab for weeks. the profits from the research should offset the rental costs. an ME bazillion useless print wont be profitable so u will let the lease lapse on the lab. 2. Raising Lab Slot costs will only raise prices on BPC's...not good for the more casual player IMHO more casual players dont build much of anything they buy from the market place, perfect evidence is the complete under utilization of factories basically EVERYWHERE. If factories were in hot demand then yes i would agree. since factories ARENT in hot demand not nearly as much as labs then this tells me labs are being hoarded for useless researching. 3. Adding more slots will not solve the problem Agree here, adding more slots will only lead to more lab hoarding for useless researching, and still keep "more casual players" out of the research business. Newer players will still be screwed since WE will become the next generation of lab hoarders tying up labs that they will whine that they cannot get access to. Solutions: 1. Add more slots...will not work..they will to get hoarded up..and labs slot will conitue to rise in price. agreed, it will just delay the inevitable (which we are seeing now in rising prices) 2. Give evey player a Lab..Bascially you will destroy the economy of EVE..since everything needs a BP(O/C) to build. BPCs will become worthless...and everyone will just buy the "O" and research ME ...for Corp/Personal use. disagree, this would work if BPOs were mortal documents. ie a BPO is set with an original number of runs or uses then it is destroyed. leave BPCs basically alone (other than those screwy unlimited run BPCs). You also run on the assumption that EVERYONE can afford to buy ALL the BPOs they need. I wish I were so rich. 3. CCP needs to cap the current prices on Labs as now. Prices should never raise above 100k per rental period. disagree, i think the 5% increase per week if the lab is booked is an excellent way to move ppl out when they are camping lab slots. actually i would love to see exponential increases per period in rental costs. ie the longer u hoard the lab the more its gonna cost u to do so. 4. CCP needs to add Labs for POS and possible a VERY Expensive deployable personal lab. (maybe two labs in it, only deployable in .6 or less, can be attacked by a corp your at war with, and you can place defenses on it). i would agrees as long as over 50% of the labs HAVE to be rentable to NON corp ppl (loopholes here) but it makes POSs trade centres then rather than local area control and staging areas, which they are used for now. Basically....I don't see many happy solutions....other than adding more...and that will not solve it... I really think that rampant inflation on camped (or atleast long term used lab slots) is the key. USE IT OR LOSE IT !! with no good way to transfer labs between ppl (which i think is a MUST) then labs will begin to be available either due to market pressures or the lab slot bug. IMHO adding labs or caps on rents are not the solution. Rampant rent inflation, mortal BPOs and no way to transfer labs between ppl are the keys to lab slot turnover. Because ultimately TURNOVER to other players is the end goal here n'est pas ? TotensBurntCorpse Likes EVE, Starfleet Command Series, Earth & Beyond, Anything Battlefield, MOHAA, Call of Duty. Dislikes Not much.
Vigilant	Posted - 2005.01.10 20:22:00 - [29] In Reply... Inflation on Lab Slots only affect the horders...The problem is when does the cost of Lab outweigh the Research being done. Example... BlackBird BPO...(roughly 23 Mill BPO)..I drop it in a Lab for ME 15..at 130k a rental Period for 5 Weeks (35 Days roughly)...5 Day rentals...130k times 7.. 1 Mill for the research... Now take that.. On a Lab at 1.5 Mill a rental period...10 mill extra for ME 15.. Yikes...worth it to ya I agree the outrageous conduct of players holding a Lab Slot with a Ammo/Shuttle/Cheap BPC to just sell it (the Lab) later should be penalized... But, if your truly using it at intended...to Better your production/or burn copies... Then why should that person be penalized Got both sides of the coin... Main problem with EVE Labs is, just like many things in Real Life, the HAVES and the THE HAVE NOTS... CCP needs a middle ground...Not something that SCREWS the HAVES...and totally opens the flood gate to HAVE NOTS... Where is the middle ground Your guess is as good as mine..
Xev	Posted - 2005.01.10 20:38:00 - [30] Say the labslot price reaches 2mil and a rich player unrents it (probably he would hold it longer than this). A labslot is now available for a beginner to rent. But it is going to cost him 2 million to do it, likely a very high cost for him. Perhaps he decides to wait and let the cost drop, now that a lab is actually free at that station. Even if he waited until the cost halved to 1mil, would a rich player not have rented it back long before that? The increasing costs may open up access to a wider range of older players, but the beginners will still be priced out of the market, will they not?

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