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Dariah Stardweller Gallente NO U111 Enterprises	Posted - 2010.11.30 10:31:00 - [121] Originally by: Drake Vos So, masters of the market, I'm considering getting a pair of PLEX for my (fairly) new account (40 Euros atm), liquidating one for funds and using the other for gametime (or maybe liquidate both ) Since the price is on a significant rise at the moment, and I would get quite a lot of ISK for this, would you consider this worthwhile, or am I better saving my IRL money? If you need that RL money for food, housing or other essentials, you'd be better saving it. Other than that, PLEX is indeed at a high price level atm so now would be a good time to convert RL cash into iskies.
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2010.11.30 10:54:00 - [122] We have no idea what your value of RL cash vs. time is and whether you have a large surplus of RL cash. If you need the cash for essentials I doubt that you would consider buying PLEX for isk. I'm one of those foolish people that find it devalues the gaming experience for myself, I won't judge you for it, because I perfectly well understand that folks would rather spend an hours salary then spend grinding hours upon hours grinding (especially young pilots). At least it gives me the opportunity to play the game for 'free' ;-)
Drake Vos Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2010.11.30 11:56:00 - [123] Edited by: Drake Vos on 30/11/2010 11:57:29 Well I'm not short on IRL money, so that's not a problem. The way I see it, if I cash one, that will give be a 380mil injection. No small amount, but it will let me buy a few frigs for RvB and general PvP without taking forever. I'll still do the missions to get experience, but it just means I don't have to worry about running out of money if I lose a few ships when I venture into lowsec and PvP It will also allow me to have a reserve for collateral use for contracts, as well as being able to play a little in the stock market. I can understand how some would feel it devalues the game, but as least I'm using PLEX rather than paying an ISK seller :p
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2010.11.30 12:13:00 - [124] Originally by: Drake Vos Edited by: Drake Vos on 30/11/2010 11:57:29 I can understand how some would feel it devalues the game, but as least I'm using PLEX rather than paying an ISK seller :p And for that we're all thankful! Another PLEX to the market...
Drake Vos Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2010.11.30 20:51:00 - [125] Bump on this. I'm looking for a quick sell, so I've stuck one at 375, inbetween the current low sell price and high buy order price. That will do nicely for me as a cash injection, and someone savvy can probably turn a decent profit on this. It's at Gicodel VII if you want it.
RutilusUnus	Posted - 2010.12.01 01:38:00 - [126] When the hell did plex drop so fast?? Sell/buy in jita atm is 369/357mil.
Caldariftw123	Posted - 2010.12.01 02:01:00 - [127] Originally by: RutilusUnus When the hell did plex drop so fast?? Sell/buy in jita atm is 369/357mil. I've watched it tank all day. Not going to buy the plexes to find out who is doing it, but I'm fairly sure it's just one or a couple of people constantly outbidding by large amounts. Either that or everyone holding plexes had a meeting and decided today was the day they all sell and will viciously undercut each other out of spite because the biscuits were soft and the coffee was cold at this meeting?
Jamie Jin	Posted - 2010.12.01 02:06:00 - [128] Some people were clammering in Jita about no plex for remaps. Maybe the didn't get the memo before patch day?
RutilusUnus	Posted - 2010.12.01 02:16:00 - [129] Originally by: Caldariftw123 Originally by: RutilusUnus When the hell did plex drop so fast?? Sell/buy in jita atm is 369/357mil. I've watched it tank all day. Not going to buy the plexes to find out who is doing it, but I'm fairly sure it's just one or a couple of people constantly outbidding by large amounts. Either that or everyone holding plexes had a meeting and decided today was the day they all sell and will viciously undercut each other out of spite because the biscuits were soft and the coffee was cold at this meeting? I like the second option
Rasz Lin Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.12.01 02:22:00 - [130] time to buy them out and move plexes whole 5 jumps to motsu?

Caldariftw123	Posted - 2010.12.01 02:26:00 - [131] Originally by: Rasz Lin time to buy them out and move plexes whole 5 jumps to motsu? "Shhhh! I'm hunting ~~wabbits~~ underpriced plexes!"
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2010.12.01 03:28:00 - [132] Originally by: Jamie Jin Some people were clammering in Jita about no plex for remaps. Maybe the didn't get the memo before patch day? Never underestimate the power of self-styled "traders" that don't read the devblogs _ Beginner's ISK making guide \| Manufacturer's helper \| All about reacting _
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.12.01 07:20:00 - [133] The part in the dev blog about becoming a dinasaur sorta got me thinking that there was some small chance they would move away from as expensive a monthly subscription price. A cheaper monthly cost could really hurt the value of plex ...they'd need need need things like remaps and character exchanges for them to hold their value and the players don't seem to want anything that could give a bit of help in game at all... I'm not saying it would happen, but I used to think that keeping your excess wealth in plexes was certainly safer than in Isk but now I'm not quite as 100% on that.
Drake Vos Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2010.12.01 10:00:00 - [134] Saying that, after I sold mine for 375, the price in the region went down 5 mil within about 10 mins, so maybe this is just a continuation of that movement. Of course, I might have nothing to do with it, but I linke to think I did :p
Ash Donai	Posted - 2010.12.01 18:31:00 - [135] Originally by: Diomedes Calypso The part in the dev blog about becoming a dinasaur sorta got me thinking that there was some small chance they would move away from as expensive a monthly subscription price. You clearly haven't been following CCPs take on the value of EVE. They consider it a "premium" MMO so if anything they will raise the price (unlikely) rather than lower it. PLEX will be the most secure 100% passive growth investment for eternity to come. All the vanity additions that will come to EVE will be paid for by PLEX and lots of companies on Facebook et.al. made literally millions of RL $ by selling vanity products to users. PLEX will sell for 500M within a year, no doubt about that.
Thrasymachus TheSophist	Posted - 2010.12.01 18:37:00 - [136] Originally by: Diomedes Calypso The part in the dev blog about becoming a dinasaur sorta got me thinking that there was some small chance they would move away from as expensive a monthly subscription price. A cheaper monthly cost could really hurt the value of plex ...they'd need need need things like remaps and character exchanges for them to hold their value and the players don't seem to want anything that could give a bit of help in game at all... I'm not saying it would happen, but I used to think that keeping your excess wealth in plexes was certainly safer than in Isk but now I'm not quite as 100% on that. Oh look, my sub isn't quite up yet. any day now ... Meanwhile - I agree with Diomedes. I think Eve will, like the rest of the major MMOs, move towards "free to play" model. The economics of "free to play" are far too compelling to stick with the old monthly sub model, which fails to capture players willing to pay less than $15/month at all. I suppose only time will tell ...
Ash Donai	Posted - 2010.12.01 20:01:00 - [137] Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist Meanwhile - I agree with Diomedes. I think Eve will, like the rest of the major MMOs, move towards "free to play" model. The economics of "free to play" are far too compelling to stick with the old monthly sub model, which fails to capture players willing to pay less than $15/month at all. Let's think about this, F2P works based on the fact that there are a great many players who are willing to pay far more than the $15/mo which in turn subsidizes the play of those who pay little or nothing at all. In the end F2P still needs to be profitable. In effect we already have the benefit of F2P give the publisher in that those who are willing to pay more than $15/mo can do so by buying PLEX for RL cash and converting it to ISK. The publisher furthermore can rely on a steady and predictable income stream from subscriptions. Why exactly would they want to give up the bird in the hand for two in the bush? After 7 years on the market EVE remains a niche MMO, F2P wouldn't change that the slightest.
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2010.12.01 20:44:00 - [138] F2P isn't really a strain on other MMO's (on the system), if they need more capacity, they just roll out extra servers. EVE has serious issues at certain key systems (such as Jita) and with Fleetfights. I doubt CCP would see much benefit in adding a bunch of non-paying customers to EVE online that strain the system even further, not only that, the big sale item is the actuall accounts, many folks have multiples of those (currently have four active). How would you propose F2P? No skill training? Buy Skill points, skill training at only half speed? Hell, even if there was no skill training I would activate a sh!tload of accounts (that I have dormant) and those will make a lot of isk without having to pay for it through subscription or PLEX. As for the 500M isk for PLEX within the year, I'll believe it when I see it.
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.12.01 21:35:00 - [139] Without a move towards (even incrementally to a lower sub price or longer trial) f2play I would definitely agree with the 500million isk plex price 1 year out. Its just the nature of games that over time they offer ways to earn the ingame currency a bit quicker ... higher bounties... etc. You need to give the sense to players that they are "better off than they were a year ago" even if they're about the same relative to other players. Maybe 500million is a bit high... could be more like 12% to 15% higher .. maye a range between 420 and 460 by this time next year... ..but thats without a move towards F2play. I think people are missing the point ...focusing on whether F2Play is good, or whether its necessary now. I'd agree : Its not good ... Its not necessary today. BUT in 6 months they'll need to continue to attract new customers...even retaining an astronomical 80% of customers year to year (it cant' be that high)...the game will die wihtout attracting new players. If 6 months from now, next to no-one is charging montly fees near $15 bucks a month that number is going to be a really hard sale . People just don't pay much higher than the going rate as a matter of principle... its just human nature. As long as WoW and other big budget co's charge a similar monthly there isn't a problem. If WoW dropped their price to 4.95 a month...even if no eve player would consider plaing WoW their perception of the going rate for games will be set by it.
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2010.12.01 22:10:00 - [140] WoW isn't going to lower their monthly subscription, they would loose way to much money and people are still willing to pay it. Nor do I see Star Wars: The Old Republic or Final Fantasy choosing the F2P distribution model. And unless EVE is going to loose significant amounts of players to games like Black Prophecy and Perpetuum due to competing pricing, I don't see things changing for EVE for years. EVE attracts a certain kind of person, and as said before, that kind of person is usually willing to pay for this experience... I would also make a wild guess and say that a large amount of the resources that are expended PLEX/GTC/subscription are done by old timers that have made a huge investment (of time/energy/money) in EVE online and will not quickly leave it for a cheaper game. A lot of folks do look at other games for different experiences. I have a lifetime subscription for LotRO and have made a little investment in DDO Turbine points, I also have EQ2E on my PC, all have different experiences. I also have an interest in SWtOR and BP, but not because they are the same as EVE and certainly not as a replacement. I had access to the Beta of Perpetuum, but to be honest it's not much of a different experience than EVE, so I never really pursued it. Do you know why certain rock bands can ask $200 for their tickets and get it and others can't get $20 for a ticket? A loyal following, EVE has that in spades! I also suspect that CCP would need to change to much of the game to see it move to F2P. If CCP would do a F2P game, it would be the WoD game, it can be designed from the ground up to be F2P...

Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.12.01 23:49:00 - [141] They would need to replace 20% of their players a year even if every player stayed 5 years before quitting. However .. the free to play might not be such a universal trend ... I guess they're even toying with making modern warfare go to a subscription model . http://www.metro.co.uk/tech/games/847394-midweek-feature-the-day-gaming-changed There is an element of doubt in terms of the value of a monthly subscription.. thats all...almost all trading has some doubt/risk .... the possibility would just make me slightly more cautious about the size of a position.
Christian Schneider	Posted - 2010.12.02 00:02:00 - [142] Edited by: Christian Schneider on 02/12/2010 00:03:36 eve is already free to play / has already micro transaction. you don't pay 15$ per month to play the game. you only pay to get skillpoints. you can just not train your main but instead train an alt purely for the purpose of selling it eventually. by selling said alt after let's say 10 months of training you will earn enough isk to buy 12 plex. that's enough to keep your account running for 10 months and to pay the character transfer.
Thrasymachus TheSophist	Posted - 2010.12.02 02:19:00 - [143] Edited by: Thrasymachus TheSophist on 02/12/2010 02:25:50 Originally by: Ash Donai Let's think about this, F2P works based on the fact that there are a great many players who are willing to pay far more than the $15/mo which in turn subsidizes the play of those who pay little or nothing at all. In the end F2P still needs to be profitable. In effect we already have the benefit of F2P give the publisher in that those who are willing to pay more than $15/mo can do so by buying PLEX for RL cash and converting it to ISK. The publisher furthermore can rely on a steady and predictable income stream from subscriptions. Why exactly would they want to give up the bird in the hand for two in the bush? After 7 years on the market EVE remains a niche MMO, F2P wouldn't change that the slightest. I think you misunderstand the theory of F2P. Micro transactions, which Eve has (in essence) permit the Developers to capture those willing to pay more than $15/month by offering add-ons for extra cost (here, its Plex that can be sold for ISK). F2P's beauty is that it allows the developer to also capture those who are willing to pay LESS than $15/month. You offer barebones functionality for "free" and then capture the occasional $5, $10, $15; or the monthly $5; or the "hey thats a cool new feature I'll pay $10 once for it", etc. The strict $$$ per month model loses all of those potential customers becuase if you are not willing to pay $15/month, then CCP gets $0 from you -- even if you would have spent $10 every 2 months, or $10 a month, or whatever your willingness to pay is. In total fairness, Eve has a bit of an advantage over most subscription games in giving you the option to pay for game time via farming ISK and purchasing PLEX, but the lesson being learned by most game devs at this time is that Free to Play nets you ALOT more money based on the fact that LOTS more people will play your game and just spend a few bucks here and there if you can convince them that they can actually play the game for "free" (and they get invested). Now I'm gonna go read that link about Modern Warfare goign to a sub model as thats rather shockign to me .... EDIT: I just read that article and I'm underwhelmed. I think the Asian model will remain dominant and if they try to convert games into long-term franchieses with ongoing sub fees, they're just buying right back into the old model that empirically has proven not to work. Just one kid's opinion, of course!
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.12.02 03:02:00 - [144] Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist Edited by: Thrasymachus TheSophist on 02/12/2010 02:25:50 Originally by: Ash Donai Let's think about this, F2P works based on the fact that there are a great many players who are willing to pay far more than the $15/mo which in turn subsidizes the play of those who pay little or nothing at all. In the end F2P still needs to be profitable. In effect we already have the benefit of F2P give the publisher in that those who are willing to pay more than $15/mo can do so by buying PLEX for RL cash and converting it to ISK. The publisher furthermore can rely on a steady and predictable income stream from subscriptions. Why exactly would they want to give up the bird in the hand for two in the bush? After 7 years on the market EVE remains a niche MMO, F2P wouldn't change that the slightest. I think you misunderstand the theory of F2P. Micro transactions, which Eve has (in essence) permit the Developers to capture those willing to pay more than $15/month by offering add-ons for extra cost (here, its Plex that can be sold for ISK). F2P's beauty is that it allows the developer to also capture those who are willing to pay LESS than $15/month. You offer barebones functionality for "free" and then capture the occasional $5, $10, $15; or the monthly $5; or the "hey thats a cool new feature I'll pay $10 once for it", etc. The strict $$$ per month model loses all of those potential customers becuase if you are not willing to pay $15/month, then CCP gets $0 from you -- even if you would have spent $10 every 2 months, or $10 a month, or whatever your willingness to pay is. In total fairness, Eve has a bit of an advantage over most subscription games in giving you the option to pay for game time via farming ISK and purchasing PLEX, but the lesson being learned by most game devs at this time is that Free to Play nets you ALOT more money based on the fact that LOTS more people will play your game and just spend a few bucks here and there if you can convince them that they can actually play the game for "free" (and they get invested). Now I'm gonna go read that link about Modern Warfare goign to a sub model as thats rather shockign to me .... EDIT: I just read that article and I'm underwhelmed. I think the Asian model will remain dominant and if they try to convert games into long-term franchieses with ongoing sub fees, they're just buying right back into the old model that empirically has proven not to work. Just one kid's opinion, of course! I doubt the modern warfare thing too.. it sounded like the floating of a trial balloon...more to judge reactions... ... I actually believe it might be a feint move to try to extract some kick-backs from microsoft x-box subscriptions under the threat of leaving. And thats business... and people are arguing logic as they see it.. not trying to figure out the mindset of consumers ... this is a luxury item... and impulse purchases keep retailers alive... help pay for our milk at the super-market which the retailers sell at a loss once overhead is taken into account.... ok .. not goint to go there too far
Durnin Stormbrow	Posted - 2010.12.02 18:28:00 - [145] Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist Meanwhile - I agree with Diomedes. I think Eve will, like the rest of the major MMOs, move towards "free to play" model. The economics of "free to play" are far too compelling to stick with the old monthly sub model, which fails to capture players willing to pay less than $15/month at all. EvE is already Free 2 Play via isk for Plex, and the entry requirements and grind time can't get much lower. At current prices, any player with access to low, null, or WH planets and transport to market can fund their subscription solely through PI from a single character, and they can do it with only a few weeks training. With additional passive income available from Datacores and 2nd & 3rd characters, it's going to take one hell of a price correction before 'grind to play' takes more than 1 or 2 extractor restarts/day and a quarterly round with the R&D agents.
Thrasymachus TheSophist	Posted - 2010.12.03 03:02:00 - [146] Originally by: Durnin Stormbrow EvE is already Free 2 Play via isk for Plex, and the entry requirements and grind time can't get much lower. Grind to play != free to play. You don't get anywhere near the same folks by saying "Hey you can play for free! Just grind enough to buy a Plex!" as you do saying "Hey play for free!". As for your critique of the "strengths" of F2P ... I'm not using the word "strength" to indicate a moral judgment, but rather a simple fact. F2P attracts TONS of players who otherwise would not play your game, and afterwards, some percentage of them will, notwithstanding having joined to play for "free", decide to spend some money. These are not contentious issues, they're facts. Whether attracting hordes of players interested in playing for free is or is not ultimately good for a game - thats a point of debate. Whether a game developer can offer a playable experience (i.e. server capactity) for hordes of free players or not - that's also worthy of consideration. But making a game free attracts tons more players. Period. And # of players, in many games, is a very large consideration for keeping players. And some perceentage of "free" seeking players will ultimately decide to pay money (after having invested the time to play the "free" game). At least .. that's how it looks to me.
Strrog	Posted - 2010.12.03 07:02:00 - [147] Originally by: Jamie Jin Some people were clammering in Jita about no plex for remaps. Maybe the didn't get the memo before patch day? Are you saying CCP gona implement the Plex for remap? If yes where the info came from, I do not recall seeing it in dev log. thank you Strrog
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2010.12.04 20:44:00 - [148] It's currently 362M/354M in Jita...
EvilCheez	Posted - 2010.12.09 01:00:00 - [149] What happens to plex price when people wake up on the 14th with enough skillpoints to fly orca/cap/tIII and not enough isk to afford the ships?
Rasz Lin Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.12.09 04:27:00 - [150] Originally by: EvilCheez What happens to plex price when people wake up on the 14th with enough skillpoints to fly orca/cap/tIII and not enough isk to afford the ships? simple - they will bot more for isk



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