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Rhinanna
Minmatar Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2010.11.10 17:15:00 -
[1]
Hi all, I think we've all seen the nerf drake thread and I think a lot of this is because of the power of logistics rather than the power of the drake itself.
Logistics in any gang generally are the most valuable ships and the lynchpin of the gang due to their sheer power as well as the difficultly to kill. Rather than nerf logistics I would suggest this change to all remote rep modules.
EG. Current range = 20km (made up range, not sure if any real repper has this range ;) )
New range - Optimal = 5km Fall-off = 12.5km
So at 5km they are doing full reps, at 17.5km they are doing half reps but can still keep repping out to a max range of 30km (10km improvement) althrough it would be fairly small amount been repped at that range.
This will mean in gangs, the logistics need to choose to hang in close to the rest of the ships and provide high level repping support but making themselves more vunverable to enemy fire or if they would be better staying at range and providing half the amount of reps but been much harder for the enemy to intercept and neutralise.
This would also provide more variation in fitting logistics ships instead of the normal max reppers with cap stable, you would also need a tougher fit to rep at close range.
It also makes sence that over large distances the amount repped would be reduced just from interference and matter floating about in space getting in the way.
Also as all damage other than missiles is reduced in this way by range it makes sence that the reppers are reduced by range in the same manner since this provides the balance between DPS and repairing.
Constructive critism only please. -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag) |
Joukka
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Posted - 2010.11.10 22:11:00 -
[2]
I agree, i dont like idea nerfing drakes. But logistics are the way what we have to think.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.10 22:17:00 -
[3]
I like the way you say 'rather than nerf logistics...' and then proceed to describe a plan which massively nerfs logistics!
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Rhinanna
Minmatar Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2010.11.11 21:19:00 -
[4]
Overall it is a bit of a nerf yeah, but only for long-range repping.
If the logistics is happy to put itself in harms way he can rep as much as before. If it wants to stay safe it reps about half it's previous amount. I'm completely up for the specific numbers been modified here. -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag) |
garus banta
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Posted - 2010.11.11 21:32:00 -
[5]
You know if ever there was a nerf herder, it would be this thread.
It takes a group to figure out the best way to utilize and maximize a collective strategy, yet the defense always cries about nerfs!
Drake gangs are not omnipotent if you think about how to fit against such an attack, there is a balance but it requires you to actually develop a strategy yourself.
The Initiative demonstrated how to castrate a drake gang. Do your homework.
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2010.11.11 21:46:00 -
[6]
A funny thing I've noticed in EVE compared to other MMORPGS is how few "healers" there are here. I really only have Guild Wars as a reference, but there you always had 1 healer in a party of 6, and usually 2 healers in a party of 8. That's around 25% of the party.
Imagine if 25% of the fleets in eve actually was logistics. I have a feeling the drake gangs wouldn't be such a big deal in that case.
What I really wonder is, why isn't this happening already? A fleet of 100 with 25 logistics ships feel like it would survive a lot longer than a fleet of 100 with no logistics? And given the penalty of death in EVE you'd want as many ships as possible to survive all the time? Why isn't this more usual than it is? The drake gang should really be the norm, not the exception in that regard.
What do the rest of you think this depends on? * Logistics not showing up on kill mails? (no bragging value in flying one) * Logistics being vulnerable? (which they wouldn't be if there were enough of them) * Logistics being boring to fly? well then why would people play healer classes in other games? * Logistics being overpowered? with too much logistics in each fleet no one gets any kills and everything is boring? * Different logistics for different ships? (hard to get efficient logistics if they are split into two groups)
Every one of those points can probably be fixed if the problem is locked down.
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Rhinanna
Minmatar Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2010.11.11 22:27:00 -
[7]
Probably a combination of the factors above, also the fact that the skills needed for them to be cap stable are quite long and they cost more than a HAC.
And No, this wasn't a complaint about drake fleets, we know several different tactics to beat them thanks. The drake fleets would actually be less affected by this than other fleets since its easier for them to keep their logistic vessels close.
The real problem is that crusier sized vessels can rep for 300+dps/second. When you take into account tracking + range + resists thats often nullifying 3-4 BCs or 4-5 HACs worth of damage per logistic vessel which is just too much to be able to do from 70km away from the fight in a vessel thats fairly easy to make practically unjammable.
This change would also add some tactics to using logistics, I wouldn't be opposed to a tracking computer for remote repping been introduced either allowing even longer ranged repping, so long as it didn't increase the optimal rep range of logistics above about 20km + 120km with a sensible fitting (2 large remote reppers and some tank + propulsion mod)
-The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag) |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.11.11 22:35:00 -
[8]
The real problem is that there is no real problem. The only thing that is a bit of a problem is lag, which makes it harder to alpha logistics. But logistics make fights more fun since they take longer, and you got a chance if primaried.
But drakes are fine, logistics are fine, and drakes + logistics are fine.
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2010.11.11 22:37:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Daedalus II
What do the rest of you think this depends on?
It's very simple, it takes far less time to train for a drake then it does a logi ship, so the majority of players who fleet up will most likely have Drakes and not logistic skills.
You can earn cash in a drake sooner then you can in a logi ship, so the choice to train for drakes becomes very obvious.
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2010.11.12 00:12:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Daedalus II on 12/11/2010 00:17:17
Originally by: Rhinanna Probably a combination of the factors above, also the fact that the skills needed for them to be cap stable are quite long and they cost more than a HAC.
And No, this wasn't a complaint about drake fleets, we know several different tactics to beat them thanks. The drake fleets would actually be less affected by this than other fleets since its easier for them to keep their logistic vessels close.
The real problem is that crusier sized vessels can rep for 300+dps/second. When you take into account tracking + range + resists thats often nullifying 3-4 BCs or 4-5 HACs worth of damage per logistic vessel which is just too much to be able to do from 70km away from the fight in a vessel thats fairly easy to make practically unjammable.
This change would also add some tactics to using logistics, I wouldn't be opposed to a tracking computer for remote repping been introduced either allowing even longer ranged repping, so long as it didn't increase the optimal rep range of logistics above about 20km + 120km with a sensible fitting (2 large remote reppers and some tank + propulsion mod)
Well if logistics now are as overpowered as you say, then why oh why doesn't more people use them?? They seem like super great to use in any fleet, and still they shine with their absense. It can't be only the skills and the price? They aren't that much more expensive than a HAC, and they don't require more skills than your average warship because you don't have to train weapon skills at all. They have the repairing power of half a carrier for gods sake! They regularly pawn in alliance tournaments. They are small, fast and agile with good tanks.
And still, almost never used. Perhaps they aren't that overpowered? Maybe... even underpowered? There must be SOME reason why people arent' using them? do they feel they need to give their enemies some help or what? Some cave man mentality perhaps? "Ugh! me strong, me shoot hard, you weak you don't shoot at all!"
Edit: after checking the market I discovered an Oneiros is actually 10 mil cheaper than a Deimos, so they aren't even as expensive as HACs.
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Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari The Technomages Comrades-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.11.12 01:35:00 -
[11]
My personal opinion is logistics needs to be expanded on, really. T1 'logistics' ships should exist in all races for frigate, cruiser, and battleships. More skills and varying modules. A proper look at it and fleshing it out into a fully defined role a pilot might take for their whole career path instead of a year down the road will make it more interesting, highlight any imbalances so it can be done right, and promote teamwork in general.
Oh, and get rid of the T1 non-RR bonuses for the cruisers that exist. That is the one brand of ship I feel sorry for the Minmatar in.
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Acru Si
Amarr Haita de lupi ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2010.11.12 12:14:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Acru Si on 12/11/2010 12:14:47 Logistic presence on the battlefield, forces enemy to make use of EWAR (ECM, Damps, Neuts) to disable // lower their impact. Without logistics fights would be boring.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.11.12 12:16:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Daedalus II Edited by: Daedalus II on 12/11/2010 00:17:17
Originally by: Rhinanna Probably a combination of the factors above, also the fact that the skills needed for them to be cap stable are quite long and they cost more than a HAC.
And No, this wasn't a complaint about drake fleets, we know several different tactics to beat them thanks. The drake fleets would actually be less affected by this than other fleets since its easier for them to keep their logistic vessels close.
The real problem is that crusier sized vessels can rep for 300+dps/second. When you take into account tracking + range + resists thats often nullifying 3-4 BCs or 4-5 HACs worth of damage per logistic vessel which is just too much to be able to do from 70km away from the fight in a vessel thats fairly easy to make practically unjammable.
This change would also add some tactics to using logistics, I wouldn't be opposed to a tracking computer for remote repping been introduced either allowing even longer ranged repping, so long as it didn't increase the optimal rep range of logistics above about 20km + 120km with a sensible fitting (2 large remote reppers and some tank + propulsion mod)
Well if logistics now are as overpowered as you say, then why oh why doesn't more people use them?? They seem like super great to use in any fleet, and still they shine with their absense. It can't be only the skills and the price? They aren't that much more expensive than a HAC, and they don't require more skills than your average warship because you don't have to train weapon skills at all. They have the repairing power of half a carrier for gods sake! They regularly pawn in alliance tournaments. They are small, fast and agile with good tanks.
And still, almost never used. Perhaps they aren't that overpowered? Maybe... even underpowered? There must be SOME reason why people arent' using them? do they feel they need to give their enemies some help or what? Some cave man mentality perhaps? "Ugh! me strong, me shoot hard, you weak you don't shoot at all!"
Edit: after checking the market I discovered an Oneiros is actually 10 mil cheaper than a Deimos, so they aren't even as expensive as HACs.
Lack of KMs tbh.
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1600 RT
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Posted - 2010.11.12 13:33:00 -
[14]
so to reduce the effectivenes of 1 single ship you porposing to nerf a entire class of ships (logistic) wich is perfectly fine with all the other ships ?
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Rhinanna
Minmatar Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2010.11.12 14:04:00 -
[15]
Quote: Logistic presence on the battlefield, forces enemy to make use of EWAR (ECM, Damps, Neuts) to disable // lower their impact. Without logistics fights would be boring.
This would be true if it wasn't so easy for logistics to fit a SeBo + ECCM enough to make this a losing proposition, most logistics fit these two modules as standard because they can still fit a decent tank with them. I agree logistics should be good ships, but at the moment they are a little underpowered and quite simply boring to fly.
Quote: Well if logistics now are as overpowered as you say, then why oh why doesn't more people use them?? They seem like super great to use in any fleet, and still they shine with their absense. It can't be only the skills and the price?
Price ends up higher than a HAC simply because lets face it, if the enemy fleet has a choice they are going to primary the logistics first so you end up having to replace your ship more often. The only time the logistics are really safer than the hacks are when the enemy is coming to a set piece you have arranged in advance.
Also the skills used with a HAC are skills everyone trains up when they start (with the exception of dedicated cap/logistic pilots) as they are needed to make money. Logistics skills aren't and because level 5 logistics + shield emission/remote armour rep is required to get them usefully cap stable.
Quote: so to reduce the effectivenes of 1 single ship you porposing to nerf a entire class of ships (logistic) wich is perfectly fine with all the other ships ?
Eh? There are 4 logistics ship, only the onerous is slightly behind the others really, the guardian, basilisk and scimitar could also use this change which while reducing their power a bit, would also make them into a more interesting ship to fly.
If you are still thinking anything here is about drake fleets then you haven't bothered to read the thread and would appreciate it if you would go burn in hell. Thanks
-The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag) |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.11.12 15:23:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 12/11/2010 15:24:38
Quote: This would be true if it wasn't so easy for logistics to fit a SeBo + ECCM enough to make this a losing proposition, most logistics fit these two modules as standard because they can still fit a decent tank with them. I agree logistics should be good ships, but at the moment they are a little underpowered and quite simply boring to fly.
What is the last time you used a logistics? I dont think there is ANY logistics that fits sebo + ECCM, let alone most logistics. Guardian cant even fit it if they want. Oneiros might do it, but tbh who cares about oneiros. Scimitar can do it, but it is highly doubtful they sacrifise 2 mids.
And my personal experience with logistics is that they have a way higher survival rate than other t2 cruisers, but that might be dependent on how you use them.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.11.12 16:33:00 -
[17]
RR has a maximum range 9km for large modules, the range is entirely contained in the logistics bonuses. The proposed changes will not really affect much except maybe the Scimitar/Basilisk .. Guardians have no problems mingling with their protectees and Oneiros' are not actually used. It is a decent enough idea to tone down the base range of RR to limit its usefulness on non-bonused ships (ie. BS RR Blobs), but the Logistics should have 75km range option minimum to account for snipers and fast movers that might interfere ..
Originally by: Kabaal S'sylistha My personal opinion is logistics needs to be expanded on, really....
I'll second that, at least partially.
Frigate RR is kind of redundant due to ranges/speeds/EHP involved so don't really see what it would add on T1 level anyway. I would restrict it to T3 frigates and perhaps as a 4th bonus to AFs (highly contentious I know ) Cruiser RR is restricted to Gallente/Caldari for some stupid reason and should be added to Minmatar/Amarr as well, all races should access to logistics training wheels. BS size is moot, between Carriers and Logistics that class is already pretty well covered and they have enough buffer/cap to do it themselves on top.
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Rhinanna
Minmatar Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2010.11.12 18:13:00 -
[18]
I think since I regularly fly logistics and all the logistics I've seen have at LEAST an eccm if not a sensor booster as well that its you who needs to get out there more. Its only the guardian out of the 4 who have trouble fitting both and thats not a big issue for them since they are normally repping ahac or RRBS fleets both of which they can sit close to anyway so don't care if they get sensor damped.
The logistics only suffers the least 'incidental' losses, IE 1 side doesn't want to engage. In a fight between two decent gangs there will be a lot of incoming fire against the logistics, look at in the tournaments where the logistics where often the primary target. -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag) |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.11.12 19:20:00 -
[19]
Yes, lets balance around alliance tournament Oh and btw, logistics dont gain aggression.
I also checked some kms from other alliances, where exactly are those people who fit both ECCM and sebos to their logistics? I cant find them, while you say they pretty much all do.
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Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari The Technomages Comrades-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.11.12 19:44:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
I'll second that, at least partially.
Frigate RR is kind of redundant due to ranges/speeds/EHP involved so don't really see what it would add on T1 level anyway. I would restrict it to T3 frigates and perhaps as a 4th bonus to AFs (highly contentious I know ) Cruiser RR is restricted to Gallente/Caldari for some stupid reason and should be added to Minmatar/Amarr as well, all races should access to logistics training wheels. BS size is moot, between Carriers and Logistics that class is already pretty well covered and they have enough buffer/cap to do it themselves on top.
Having it for t1 frigates is mostly intended as the low cost option and introductory ship in this grandiose mental image I have of a well defined place for support ships in a fleet. Also, a support ship that can keep up with the ship it's trying to support seems key, even if it doesn't really fit with the pure shield/armor rep mode of support that's current.
As for the BS size, again it's mostly training and cost. Yes, the carrier can do it and logistics fills the cruiser role, but again in my pretend world of perfect Eve the support pilot would have to fly cruisers then try and skill all the way to carriers before being presented an upgrade.
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Kai Yuen
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Posted - 2010.11.12 20:23:00 -
[21]
Don't nerf drakes OR logi. Armor hac fleets are the perfect counter to drake fleets, and BOTH fleets rely on logistics to be effective. There's nothing wrong with either fleet. Don't give me this bs that logi is boring to fly or that they don't get a on killmails. Fit combat drones and assign them to someone else just like every other logi pilot. Leave the shield fleet alone. Yes, it's caldari, boohoo. I know this anti-caldari online but at some point we all have to kiss and hug. There's plenty of ways to break up logistics chains like ecm, sensor damps, and neuting.
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Rhinanna
Minmatar Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2010.11.12 23:24:00 -
[22]
Again, drakes are a separate issue.
AHAC gangs would also NOT be significantly hurt by this change since they also engage at range so it's easier for them to keep their logistics near them.
Where this would really have an affect is gate camping with logistics where the two sides become unbalanced as the side who has to jump through has to expose his logistics or do without them while the enemies logistics (currently) can sit 50+km off about as safe as you can be.
I'm not trying to nerf logistics or drakes.... this ISN'T about that, this is about making: 1- Flying a logistics more interesting 2- Making them more balanced (and not nerfed) including the possibility of even longer ranged reps at the expense of tank/rep power. 3- Allowing more than just 2 types of gang to function effectively.....
-The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag) |
Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari The Technomages Comrades-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.11.12 23:47:00 -
[23]
On the specific topic of this thread, I'd say an optimal and falloff for RR isn't necessarily a bad idea, but you couldn't do it without also looking at the numbers and testing. Again though, logistics has such a limited role and specific skill training I'd be loathe to put more on them without expanding it into a full fledged role with a place in both PvE and PvP, as opposed to a one module, one ship class addendum.
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Sexorella hotz
SexyCor
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Posted - 2010.11.13 20:48:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Sexorella hotz on 13/11/2010 20:52:02 Couple of years ago, I was a heavy user of dual guardians for their cap generating power. There were only a few things that could stop me, overwhelming(and I mean OVERWHELMING) firepower, and ECM. Otherwise, the fleets I was in could recklessly attack groups 2-3x our size. I think this cap generation tactic gives the guardian undo power, and could perhaps use some tweaking. I don't think you can touch their range, as putting them in the fray basically makes them useless (Except for those that can support each other as just described, which means it would have a more adverse effect on scimitar/oneiros).
(I will note that I did not find the pair ultimately effective until I had every related skill to 5, that is, remote rep skills, cap skills, armor skills, and absolutely most importantly logistics 5 itself, so with that skill barrier the abilities may have been warranted)
Now, from these experiences, I will comment on what I think really made them overpowered(in this context, I can't speak for large-scale, fleet fight usage as I rarely ever found them to be effective in these scenarios), and that is the lack of aggression from remote repairing. This gives them extreme versatility for gate/station fights. If things get too hot, they can rep while their buddies deagress and then escape as if they were doing nothing in the fight, and this situation was very common for me. I think this should probably be taken away, as it's unnatural(they're clearly playing a combat role, but aren't facing the consequences).
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Sexorella hotz
SexyCor
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Posted - 2010.11.13 20:58:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Sexorella hotz on 13/11/2010 21:05:38
Originally by: Rhinanna Overall it is a bit of a nerf yeah, but only for long-range repping.
If the logistics is happy to put itself in harms way he can rep as much as before. If it wants to stay safe it reps about half it's previous amount. I'm completely up for the specific numbers been modified here.
No good, some logistics are far superior to others if they mix into the fray, particularly when used in groups. IE Guardian can fit full tank, get cap stability from another guardian, and therefore be in the fight with no adverse effects, compared to scimi/oneiros which don't have that option, they rely on speed/range to stay alive, regardless of how many are present
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Kai Yuen
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Posted - 2010.11.14 03:03:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Rhinanna Again, drakes are a separate issue.
AHAC gangs would also NOT be significantly hurt by this change since they also engage at range so it's easier for them to keep their logistics near them.
Where this would really have an affect is gate camping with logistics where the two sides become unbalanced as the side who has to jump through has to expose his logistics or do without them while the enemies logistics (currently) can sit 50+km off about as safe as you can be.
I'm not trying to nerf logistics or drakes.... this ISN'T about that, this is about making: 1- Flying a logistics more interesting 2- Making them more balanced (and not nerfed) including the possibility of even longer ranged reps at the expense of tank/rep power. 3- Allowing more than just 2 types of gang to function effectively.....
So the fleet who has to jump into the other fleet is at a disadvantage. Isn't that the way its supposed to be? You take a risk jumping into another fleet. That's what we call positioning. If you don't think you can win without jumping into them then... don't jump into them. EVE is all about out maneuvering the enemy. Your problem doesn't lie with the logistics, but in the way fleet fights are structured down to its very core. No logistics change is going to solve that and I wouldn't want it to anyways.
1) Logistics is just like playing any healer class from any other MMO. I enjoy ALL roles and I love to drop my triage carrier into a fight. If there's any single ship class that will NEVER get on a killmail its a triage carrier. I can't even deploy drones and I don't want to be anywhere near someone that can neut me, so I won't be able to neut either. I get no mails. Boohoo. I still kept the fleet alive. I still won that fight. The entire engagement was centered around me doing my job and when I do it well my fleet prevails. If that isn't enough for you then don't fly logistics and don't ***** about it. Stats are for 10 year olds who want an ego boost.
2) They aren't supposed to be balanced, at least not in the sense you're thinking of. Logi is supposed to be the difference between a structured fleet and a mish-mash fleet. You fly structured with logi on the ball and you're more effective than a bunch of baboons. That's the way its meant to be.
3) Never heard of sniper hacs? Nano gangs? Mach fleets? Sniper BS? Hot dropping? So YOU only know two types of gangs. That's YOU'RE failure, not the design of logistics. There's plenty of ways to implement or counter logistics. I've lost enough logistics ships to prove it.
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Sexorella hotz
SexyCor
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Posted - 2010.11.14 15:13:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Sexorella hotz on 14/11/2010 15:16:04
Originally by: Kai Yuen
Stuff
3) Never heard of sniper hacs? Nano gangs? Mach fleets? Sniper BS? Hot dropping? So YOU only know two types of gangs. That's YOU'RE failure, not the design of logistics. There's plenty of ways to implement or counter logistics. I've lost enough logistics ships to prove it.
And if he hasn't lost enough, I'm sure I could support his argument...but I have a problem with this claim, the only times I ever died it was either:
- WAY WAY WAY too much firepower to rep
- ECM
- In either case, death only in the event I wasn't close to a gate/station
So while I have a lot of deaths, I have far more victories or times when I could simply get away while engaged(funny how people get used to a pair of invincible guardians).
Also, comparing to triage carrier is a bit out of place, putting that on the field is completely different, considerable risk compared to reg logistics and any discussion of its role must include those risks.
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Pax Thar
Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.11.14 16:41:00 -
[28]
You've said it yourself, logistics are primaried if possible. Reducing their range like that ensures they never survuve the opening salvo.
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captain foivos
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Posted - 2010.11.14 16:45:00 -
[29]
WAIT GAIZ
I HAVE AN IDEA
HOW 'BOUT WE MAKE A MODULE THAT REDUCES MAXIMUM TARGETING RANGE BY LIKE, 30% PER MODULE
THAT'D BE TOTALLY ****ING SWEET RIGHT
I MEAN IT WOULD MAKE THEM HAVE TO GET CLOSER TO GIVE REPS 'N STUFF
...
TL;DR OP has no ability to create or use tactics against logistics ships.
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McEivalley
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.14 18:52:00 -
[30]
Terribad idea - giving the reps a falloff will not make the drake or any other ship that gets a resistance bonus anything but more edge over ships that don't. You are making the scene more close ranged and violent - true - but you are also making the logistics something no one would ever want to fly. They are already the primary target of most fleets. Forcing them to keep close in order to remain effective essentially makes the RR game even less meaningful than it is today...
The idea is to actually improve RR to prolong the fighting itself and giving more time for players to enjoy it. Back to the drawing board on this one say I.
Editing your watchlist |
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