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When are "UNprobable" ships getting nerfed?

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Baudolino Gallente Royal Crimson Lancers	Posted - 2010.11.11 20:33:00 - [1] Everything gets balanced. Missiles got balanced 3-4 times in the years i`ve played. Stacking penalties, nos nerf and of course the speed nerf.. speed was nerfed because dramatic speed gave a massive advantage. Being unprobable makes you invulnerable. There`s a vast conceptual crevice between the two. Being hard to probe is fair and balanced, being UNprobable is gamebreaking and not in line with the EVE universe. Will CCP let this one slide though- since the UNprobable players are the carebear and PvE community?
Sir Drake	Posted - 2010.11.11 20:40:00 - [2] As soon as the afk-cloakers get "balanced". Give or take 3-10 years and you get your balance. ------------------------------------------------------- Sig was removed due to derogatory comments towards a group of people. -Karl Chroimcer I like that.
Riho Gallente Enterprise Estonia Cult of War	Posted - 2010.11.11 20:43:00 - [3] kinda same deal as cloaked ships.... difference is u can see them on scan but not probe em. tbh unprobable ships must sacrifice quite abit to achive this.. so they arent better than cloaker. ---------------------------------- Fighting for something
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation	Posted - 2010.11.11 20:45:00 - [4] How about as soon as PVP and PVE get balanced so that people running missions in low sec are able to defend themselves from bottom feeders such as yourself? Unprobable ships are the counter to the stupidly easy probing system that provides people like you with risk free killmails. Catch em in transit and suck it up.
Fon Revedhort Monks of War DarkSide.	Posted - 2010.11.11 20:49:00 - [5] Originally by: Skex Relbore How about as soon as PVP and PVE get balanced so that people running missions in low sec are able to defend themselves from bottom feeders such as yourself? Unprobable ships are the counter to the stupidly easy probing system that provides people like you with risk free killmails. Catch em in transit and suck it up. Get a clue and find out that scanning somebody down isn't even equal to tackling him, let alone killing. Risk-free killmails are only obtainable on farmers, who don't know how to fit their ships and how to utilize slots. ---[center] Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
souhyeahright	Posted - 2010.11.11 20:58:00 - [6] Unprobeable mission boats... bleh, whatever. Kind of makes a mockery of risk-reward, but there are other ways of finding shiny things to kill. Unprobeable squadboosting T3s, however, are rapidly becoming ubiquitous in small gang pvp, and Loki alts are the new Falcon alts; IMO, that's very undesireable and needs un-f***ing. Would be reasonably happy with the situation if they made gang bonuses/links only affect ships on the same grid as the boosting ship.
Baudolino Gallente Royal Crimson Lancers	Posted - 2010.11.11 21:05:00 - [7] the cloak analogy is silly because you need to decloak to interact with the game. A cloaked ship can only rattle your nerve - IT CAN NEVER ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING.. UN-probable ships however can provide massive uncontested fleet bonuses or can enable a player to earn massive amounts of isk while never ever worrying about getting caught. Difficult to probe is one thing- impossible to probe is just wrong..
Donde Esta	Posted - 2010.11.11 21:12:00 - [8] Originally by: Baudolino the cloak analogy is silly because you need to decloak to interact with the game. A cloaked ship can only rattle your nerve - IT CAN NEVER ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING.. UN-probable ships however can provide massive uncontested fleet bonuses or can enable a player to earn massive amounts of isk while never ever worrying about getting caught. Difficult to probe is one thing- impossible to probe is just wrong.. Except use its probes, warp, enter tackle range, etc
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.11.11 21:20:00 - [9] Originally by: Baudolino UN-probable ships however can provide massive uncontested fleet bonuses or can enable a player to earn massive amounts of isk while never ever worrying about getting caught. No, it can only provide fleet bonuses. In order to earn "massive amounts of ISK", it needs to put itself in a position to get caught. It's a non-issue. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Willmahh	Posted - 2010.11.11 21:29:00 - [10] Originally by: Donde Esta Originally by: Baudolino the cloak analogy is silly because you need to decloak to interact with the game. A cloaked ship can only rattle your nerve - IT CAN NEVER ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING.. UN-probable ships however can provide massive uncontested fleet bonuses or can enable a player to earn massive amounts of isk while never ever worrying about getting caught. Difficult to probe is one thing- impossible to probe is just wrong.. Except use its probes, warp, enter tackle range, etc then it isn't AFK, now is it?
Amarrbone	Posted - 2010.11.11 21:32:00 - [11] Unprobable ships are still vulnerable at gates and stations and they are not unkillable in any way, shape, or form. If you happen to catch one they are easier to kill then their counter parts due to less tank and DPS. That is the trade off. Your whines are the same. They put something in the game that you don't like and instead of dealing with it you complain about it. I've even seen highsec dwellers using them as a deterant to systems with ninjas in them and I love it!
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.11.11 21:56:00 - [12] Edited by: Seriously Bored on 11/11/2010 21:58:35 Originally by: Baudolino Everything gets balanced. Missiles got balanced 3-4 times in the years i`ve played. Stacking penalties, nos nerf and of course the speed nerf.. Angel ships, Hybrids, the overarching FW structure, and Planetville would like to have a word with you. There's a long laundry list of things that that need fixing that are more important than this, and have been ignored plenty. Let's add general capital ship balance to the mix as well.
Lady Thanatos Nomadic Shadows	Posted - 2010.11.11 22:05:00 - [13] Its easy to catch unprobable ships... Just wait until their probability drive messes up and they land next to you
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.11.11 22:56:00 - [14] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 11/11/2010 23:00:57 Originally by: Donde Esta Except use its probes Huh? It can probe stuff just fine, warp other ships (preferrably cloakies, duh!) on top of the result, etc. As far as OP goes, the only true issue I can see is the all-in-one package deal, i.e. bubble immunity, cloak, unprobable as well as (extremely effective gang links OR proper pve performance). Dunno, doesnt seem perfectly balanced as far as risk vs reward goes, but its not as it would make the sky fall on my head. Could be worse, it could have fighterbombers and a billion EHP...
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2010.11.11 23:36:00 - [15] Originally by: Skex Relbore How about as soon as PVP and PVE get balanced so that people running missions in low sec are able to defend themselves from bottom feeders such as yourself? Unprobable ships are the counter to the stupidly easy probing system that provides people like you with risk free killmails. Catch em in transit and suck it up. It's incredible how bad some people are. I ran missions in low sec and 0.0 on and off for years without t3 and I have yet to die doing them. There is no doubt being probed often is frustrating. However in order to actually die in a mission you either need to be very unlucky or plainly BRAIN DEAD. 99% of people I killed in missions have only themselves to blame for getting killed, ignoring local, ignoring probes on scan, ignoring a ship on scan, ignoring pretty much each and every of so many defensive tools that they had available. Even last ditch measures like being aligned. Or not sitting still on warp to zero point behind acceleration gate. Or... anything really. How many consecutive fails are required to get killed, it's amazing come to think of it. Now the other day I finally trained minmatar cruiser 5, got a loki, decided to do some low sec mission running for fun to see how it goes. It's hilarious to say the least, I'm in a system with up to 15-20 neutrals of which many are outlaws and without a single friend, there's literally NOTHING anyone can do about it. And no you can't "catch em in transit" because there are such things as cloaking subsystems and interdiction nulifiers. Go to the system where mission is with cloak and bubble immunity if in 0.0, dock, fit back to normal setup, do the mission. Dock, fit cloak, go back to agent. Oh my the ballance. Low security space indeed, so dangerous.
Feilamya Pain Elemental	Posted - 2010.11.12 00:00:00 - [16] On a long enough time scale, the probability of every ship drops to zero...
Murev Vorchilde Caldari End Game.	Posted - 2010.11.12 04:17:00 - [17] unprobable doesnt mean unfindable, especially when they go afk thinking they are safe - How Id Fix Secret world of pensioners
Socio Stan	Posted - 2010.11.12 04:28:00 - [18] Originally by: Murev Vorchilde unprobable doesnt mean unfindable, especially when they go afk thinking they are safe So, like, this one time this guy decides to be annoying and name his unprobable T3 something to insult my mother. He then afks it in my home system afk all day long. He had a half decent safespot, so it took me about 4 hours of warping and making safespots and burning toward him but I finally landed my intie on grid. He didn't do that again. He also raged and called me a hacker. Many lulz were had.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.11.12 05:30:00 - [19] Originally by: Vrabac I ran missions in low sec and 0.0 on and off for years without t3 and I have yet to die doing them. +1. Well, I died once to the rats. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
fogbird Gallente	Posted - 2010.11.12 10:56:00 - [20] Originally by: Murev Vorchilde unprobable doesnt mean unfindable, especially when they go afk thinking they are safe indeed!
Petrov Kreigt Caldari Project Nemesis	Posted - 2010.11.12 12:02:00 - [21] Originally by: Skex Relbore How about as soon as PVP and PVE get balanced so that people running missions in low sec are able to defend themselves from bottom feeders such as yourself? Unprobable ships are the counter to the stupidly easy probing system that provides people like you with risk free killmails. Catch em in transit and suck it up. Luls at the buttheart bear who died in his mission GO do some pirating and obtain some "risk free" killmails To the OP, i agree as afk unprobably fleet boosters are annoying as sin, but theres little we can do about them
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation	Posted - 2010.11.12 14:47:00 - [22] Originally by: Petrov Kreigt Originally by: Skex Relbore How about as soon as PVP and PVE get balanced so that people running missions in low sec are able to defend themselves from bottom feeders such as yourself? Unprobable ships are the counter to the stupidly easy probing system that provides people like you with risk free killmails. Catch em in transit and suck it up. Luls at the buttheart bear who died in his mission GO do some pirating and obtain some "risk free" killmails To the OP, i agree as afk unprobably fleet boosters are annoying as sin, but theres little we can do about them The last KM I see on your board that had a point was Morphe's Rifter 20 days ago and it took you 5 to kill him. Lol at being called a carebear by you. Do you ever fight anything other than PVE fits? A quick perusal of your last 20 kills shows a whopping 3 kills of actual PVP fit ships. Everything else you've killed has been a PVE fit so don't talk to me about risk you little ***** because you apparently don't believe in taking any.
De'Veldrin Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2010.11.12 14:59:00 - [23] Originally by: Skex Relbore My e-peen is bigger than yours so neener neener neener. FYP - also, no one cares. --Vel
Socio Stan	Posted - 2010.11.12 15:03:00 - [24] Quote: New Incursion Stuff òToggling probes in overview I don't think any mission runner has much to worry about, whether they use a T3 or not.
De'Veldrin Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2010.11.12 15:08:00 - [25] Originally by: Socio Stan Quote: New Incursion Stuff òToggling probes in overview I don't think any mission runner has much to worry about, whether they use a T3 or not. I've already created a "Probes Only" tab on my overview for use with my D-scan. CCP is the awesomest. --Vel
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.11.12 15:15:00 - [26] Originally by: Socio Stan Quote: New Incursion Stuff òToggling probes in overview I don't think any mission runner has much to worry about, whether they use a T3 or not. That's been possible for ages ù they're just adding the option directly to the UI. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Mavnas	Posted - 2010.11.12 15:27:00 - [27] Originally by: Seriously BoredAngel ships, Hybrids, the overarching FW structure, and Planetville would like to have a word with you. There's a long laundry list of things that that need fixing that are more important than this, and have been ignored plenty. Let's add general capital ship balance to the mix as well.[/quote Ooh! I think I figured out how to fix the first two. Switch angel bonuses to be for Hybrids. Balance issue solved .
Mavnas	Posted - 2010.11.12 15:31:00 - [28] Originally by: Vrabac Originally by: Skex Relbore How about as soon as PVP and PVE get balanced so that people running missions in low sec are able to defend themselves from bottom feeders such as yourself? Unprobable ships are the counter to the stupidly easy probing system that provides people like you with risk free killmails. Catch em in transit and suck it up. It's incredible how bad some people are. I ran missions in low sec and 0.0 on and off for years without t3 and I have yet to die doing them. There is no doubt being probed often is frustrating. However in order to actually die in a mission you either need to be very unlucky or plainly BRAIN DEAD. 99% of people I killed in missions have only themselves to blame for getting killed, ignoring local, ignoring probes on scan, ignoring a ship on scan, ignoring pretty much each and every of so many defensive tools that they had available. Even last ditch measures like being aligned. Or not sitting still on warp to zero point behind acceleration gate. Or... anything really. How many consecutive fails are required to get killed, it's amazing come to think of it. Now the other day I finally trained minmatar cruiser 5, got a loki, decided to do some low sec mission running for fun to see how it goes. It's hilarious to say the least, I'm in a system with up to 15-20 neutrals of which many are outlaws and without a single friend, there's literally NOTHING anyone can do about it. And no you can't "catch em in transit" because there are such things as cloaking subsystems and interdiction nulifiers. Go to the system where mission is with cloak and bubble immunity if in 0.0, dock, fit back to normal setup, do the mission. Dock, fit cloak, go back to agent. Oh my the ballance. Low security space indeed, so dangerous. And how much, DPS, speed, and tank are you giving up for all those subsystems allowing you to not get caught and cloak? It's the perfect example of risk vs. reward. You mitigate risks by giving up the stats that let you get more ISK/hr.
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation	Posted - 2010.11.12 15:38:00 - [29] Originally by: Socio Stan Quote: New Incursion Stuff òToggling probes in overview I don't think any mission runner has much to worry about, whether they use a T3 or not. Probing down mission runners is still going to be ridiculously easy. The irony about this is after all the whining I've seen people doing about a lack targets in low sec any mechanic that results in more targets in low sec like unprobable Mission runners brings the cry of NERF NERF from the very people who chant HTFU when someone suggests a change that would favor their prey. Personally I think mission spaces should be safer in low sec. That deadspace should have effects that make scanning more difficult not necessarily impossible just much more difficult. Understand the safer the mission is the more people will actually venture into low sec. More people in low sec means more potential targets for you in the long run. Sacrifice the ability to gank the bears in mission spaces and you'll get more chances to gank them on gates and stations. They get used to living in lower security space they might even be more interested in engaging in a little PVP themselves. If not for the potential exploit of being able to hide a fleet in them I'd say make deadspace completely unprobable. The very fact that low sec is such a wasteland is plenty of evidence that the balance of power between predator and prey is tilted to far in the favor of prey. Low sec has been hunted out to the point that the only people missioning are newbs who don't know any better yet and bitter vets who either mission in out of the way places and safe up the second any hostile enters a system or are flying around in the unprobable T3's you are crying about here. lower the risk to the bears a little and you'll get more chances to kill some. Make it even riskier and you'll lose what few opportunities you have. The unprobable gang bonus giver is a little imbalanced but it's not any different than a neutral booster in high sec and any ship that's safed up to provide bonus's is one ship that isn't on the field to help directly. Besides as common as the practice is the odds are both sides have their own unprobable bonus giver so it evens out. Once again this is just another thread from failed PvPers begging CCP to change the mechanic to give them more easy kills. Little hint here. If the mechanic was changed so that these ships weren't unprobable you wouldn't get the opportunity to farm those juicy killmails because those pilots wouldn't be running lowsec missions in T3's anymore. It's just like the whines asking L4s to be moved to low sec. If that happened all those bears wouldn't start running mission in low sec in their juicy officer fit faction ships. All that would happen would be the price on CNR's would plummet and people would start farming L3s in pimped out Drakes.
Buzz Killingdon	Posted - 2010.11.12 15:44:00 - [30] Forgive my ignorance, but what is an unprobable ship? As in, how do you make a ship unprobable without a cloaking device?
Aessoroz	Posted - 2010.11.12 15:50:00 - [31] Originally by: Buzz Killingdon Forgive my ignorance, but what is an unprobable ship? As in, how do you make a ship unprobable without a cloaking device? Theres a ratio between ship sig radius and sensor strength that is you break using ECCM mods will make your ship impossible to probe down, very few ships however can pull it off because the need for low sig radius and high sensor strength automatically makes it impossible for battlecruisers and up. However I've been in a gang where we hade a fully maxed out Loki pilot boosting a gang of hacs and 20+ rifters to make them unprobable in combination with local eccm mods.
Buzz Killingdon	Posted - 2010.11.12 16:01:00 - [32] oic, I think I get it. So higher sensor strength ships are harder to probe? So at what sensor strength is a ship considered hard or impossible to probe? If it's all relative to sig radius, then let's say a battlecruiser sig radius.
Mavnas	Posted - 2010.11.12 16:06:00 - [33] Originally by: Buzz Killingdon oic, I think I get it. So higher sensor strength ships are harder to probe? So at what sensor strength is a ship considered hard or impossible to probe? If it's all relative to sig radius, then let's say a battlecruiser sig radius. The most common number I hear is sig radius/ sensor strength < 1.08. So a battlecruiser, will almost certainly not be able to become un-probable.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.11.12 16:27:00 - [34] Originally by: Skex Relbore Probing down ~~mission runners~~ stupid people is still going to be ridiculously easy. Not any easier than it was before. Not any harder than it was before. But, it will become a lot harder to successfully probe down non-stupid people. Stop sounding so whiney. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2010.11.12 16:27:00 - [35] Originally by: Mavnas And how much, DPS, speed, and tank are you giving up for all those subsystems allowing you to not get caught and cloak? It's the perfect example of risk vs. reward. You mitigate risks by giving up the stats that let you get more ISK/hr. You refit, genius. Only use cloak for traveling when you get a mission away from agent system. You don't actually do the mission with a cloaking offensive subsystem. It's an excellent example of absolutely no risk. You can only die if you crash/freeze at the wrong moment.
Mavnas	Posted - 2010.11.12 16:45:00 - [36] Originally by: Vrabac Originally by: Mavnas And how much, DPS, speed, and tank are you giving up for all those subsystems allowing you to not get caught and cloak? It's the perfect example of risk vs. reward. You mitigate risks by giving up the stats that let you get more ISK/hr. You refit, genius. Only use cloak for traveling when you get a mission away from agent system. You don't actually do the mission with a cloaking offensive subsystem. It's an excellent example of absolutely no risk. You can only die if you crash/freeze at the wrong moment. I haven't really done a lot of stuff in low/null-sec, but in high sec I often get sent to systems with no stations. Not to mention that docking/refitting also takes time you could be spending earning ISK if you didn't care about your safety.
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2010.11.12 17:12:00 - [37] Originally by: Mavnas I haven't really done a lot of stuff in low/null-sec, but in high sec I often get sent to systems with no stations. Not to mention that docking/refitting also takes time you could be spending earning ISK if you didn't care about your safety. Most of the systems I saw had stations, around several different hubs. I mean I just did it yesterday for several hours. For the ones that don't have one, you use scout for entering or in case of not having one or having access to multiple agents, you just refuse it. Many low sec mission hubs have 3-4 lvl4 agents in a single station and given the immunity to any form of gankage there's no reason not to pick those over more quiet ones with a single agent. You could compare it to running a mission in a marauder in a safe system, then it's really obvious marauder is better, however point is marauder isn't usable like that. You either need control over that area or you need to be in high sec. For first solution you need muscle, for second you get pathetic lp. With unprobable t3 you can do missions literally ANYWHERE no matter what with 100% safety except unfortunate events such as badly timed crashes or something along the lines. So it's not you sacrifice some isk/h to get some safety, you sacrifice some dps/range to get total immunity, and with total immunity and ability to run missions whenever no matter how many probing hostiles in local you can hardly claim you're losing isk/h.
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation	Posted - 2010.11.12 17:55:00 - [38] Originally by: Vrabac Originally by: Mavnas I haven't really done a lot of stuff in low/null-sec, but in high sec I often get sent to systems with no stations. Not to mention that docking/refitting also takes time you could be spending earning ISK if you didn't care about your safety. Most of the systems I saw had stations, around several different hubs. I mean I just did it yesterday for several hours. For the ones that don't have one, you use scout for entering or in case of not having one or having access to multiple agents, you just refuse it. Many low sec mission hubs have 3-4 lvl4 agents in a single station and given the immunity to any form of gankage there's no reason not to pick those over more quiet ones with a single agent. If they are docking to change subsystems they become vulnerable when they undock to head to the mission space. Sure it's harder than scanning down a battle ship but considering the time and isk invested as well as the loss of skill points they are facing if they actually get caught, it seems to me like it should be incredibly ****ing hard to kill them. Why is it perfectly ok for a Mission thief to be able to operate with complete impunity from retribution, but not ok for someone willing to invest close to a billion isk and a couple months minimum skill time to be able to mission with reduced efficiency in relative peace? There is a definite pattern here. Fail Gankbear see's juicy easy kill just out of their grasp so they cry and cry for CCP to change the game to give them access to those easy kills. Completely overlooking the fact that if they got their way those tempting potential killmails would disappear because their prey would adapt to the new circumstance. Do away with unprobable T3's and people will stop running missions in them and you can start paying 200 mil or more a pop for your dramiels. Cry moar it gives me a tingle.
Vrabac Zawa's Fan Club	Posted - 2010.11.12 18:47:00 - [39] Originally by: Skex Relbore If they are docking to change subsystems they become vulnerable when they undock to head to the mission space. I like the way I keep disagreeing with idiots.
Leksi Bar'zuk	Posted - 2010.11.12 18:52:00 - [40] Edited by: Leksi Bar''zuk on 12/11/2010 18:55:54 Originally by: Fail Piwatse But bro, i'm in lowsec pirate and need t3 tear- er kills with loot to sustain my jawsome and gnarly lifestyle sitckin it to the man (did I mention I pay cash and sell plex regularly, lulz). But rly i'm just in it 4 bearz to die srsly they shud gb2WoW so I can just hunt other pirtz and be even more empty lowsec spaze, lorlforlf. -Piwatse Grow some balls and camp in nullsec (good bubble team can catch a t3 even with a diction nullifier) or stfu and learn to take whatever you get. Living in lolsec is a choice and you're consequently going to loose a lot of targets. Similarly, you won't get pounded by the likes me an my alliance becase we don't bother to up-root and dragass into fail-space with our fleets unless we're using it as a jump-off point to invade elsewhere. You lowsec players get less risk than us and want even moar tearz (rather than isk reward), well sorry Jr. that's not how it works. Take off your training wheels some day and join us in the real EVE or move back to empire and suicide ganking. Lowsec will always be that half-assed pvp where players are always safe enough to use a full hq implant set and get away with it.
Draco Rosso Caldari Draconian Armada	Posted - 2010.11.12 19:15:00 - [41] Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk Edited by: Leksi Bar''zuk on 12/11/2010 18:55:54 Originally by: Fail Piwatse But bro, i'm in lowsec pirate and need t3 tear- er kills with loot to sustain my jawsome and gnarly lifestyle sitckin it to the man (did I mention I pay cash and sell plex regularly, lulz). But rly i'm just in it 4 bearz to die srsly they shud gb2WoW so I can just hunt other pirtz and be even more empty lowsec spaze, lorlforlf. -Piwatse Grow some balls and camp in nullsec (good bubble team can catch a t3 even with a diction nullifier) or stfu and learn to take whatever you get. Living in lolsec is a choice and you're consequently going to loose a lot of targets. Similarly, you won't get pounded by the likes me an my alliance becase we don't bother to up-root and dragass into fail-space with our fleets unless we're using it as a jump-off point to invade elsewhere. You lowsec players get less risk than us and want even moar tearz (rather than isk reward), well sorry Jr. that's not how it works. Take off your training wheels some day and join us in the real EVE or move back to empire and suicide ganking. Lowsec will always be that half-assed pvp where players are always safe enough to use a full hq implant set and get away with it. +1 ------------------------------------------------ We are recruiting Website http://draconianarmada.com Recruitment Thread http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1316229
Damien Du'Pont	Posted - 2010.11.12 19:24:00 - [42] Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk Edited by: Leksi Bar''zuk on 12/11/2010 18:55:54 Originally by: Fail Piwatse But bro, i'm in lowsec pirate and need t3 tear- er kills with loot to sustain my jawsome and gnarly lifestyle sitckin it to the man (did I mention I pay cash and sell plex regularly, lulz). But rly i'm just in it 4 bearz to die srsly they shud gb2WoW so I can just hunt other pirtz and be even more empty lowsec spaze, lorlforlf. -Piwatse Grow some balls and camp in nullsec (good bubble team can catch a t3 even with a diction nullifier) or stfu and learn to take whatever you get. Living in lolsec is a choice and you're consequently going to loose a lot of targets. Similarly, you won't get pounded by the likes me an my alliance becase we don't bother to up-root and dragass into fail-space with our fleets unless we're using it as a jump-off point to invade elsewhere. You lowsec players get less risk than us and want even moar tearz (rather than isk reward), well sorry Jr. that's not how it works. Take off your training wheels some day and join us in the real EVE or move back to empire and suicide ganking. Lowsec will always be that half-assed pvp where players are always safe enough to use a full hq implant set and get away with it. Well said!
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation	Posted - 2010.11.12 22:13:00 - [43] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Skex Relbore Probing down ~~mission runners~~ stupid people is still going to be ridiculously easy. Not any easier than it was before. Not any harder than it was before. But, it will become a lot harder to successfully probe down non-stupid people. Stop sounding so whiney. -Liang Oh this is rich. Being accused of whining by someone whining to CCP to change a mechanic. lol Damn there went another Irony meter.
Leksi Bar'zuk	Posted - 2010.11.12 22:17:00 - [44] Originally by: Skex Relbore Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Skex Relbore Probing down ~~mission runners~~ stupid people is still going to be ridiculously easy. Not any easier than it was before. Not any harder than it was before. But, it will become a lot harder to successfully probe down non-stupid people. Stop sounding so whiney. -Liang Oh this is rich. Being accused of whining by someone whining to CCP to change a mechanic. lol Damn there went another Irony meter. I like where this is going.
Harry Voyager Obscurity LLC	Posted - 2010.11.13 00:37:00 - [45] Pirating is always going to be a losing proposition, simply because they don't create anything in game, and only act as a materials sink. They might occasionally get some fab loot from the ship they just fragged, but it's going to be more than compensated by the amount of stuff they have to destroy to get to it. This is why low sec space will always be poor, even while Empire and Alliance space are both filthy stinking rich.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.11.13 00:45:00 - [46] Originally by: Harry Voyager Pirating is always going to be a losing proposition, simply because they don't create anything in game Sure they do: they create demandà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.11.13 02:01:00 - [47] Originally by: Skex Relbore Oh this is rich. Being accused of whining by someone whining to CCP to change a mechanic. lol Damn there went another Irony meter. So I see you had nothing to say to about the topic at hand. Admitting defeat, you are. Carry on. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Faffywaffy Fremen Sietch DarkSide.	Posted - 2010.11.13 02:13:00 - [48] Originally by: Aessoroz Theres a ratio between ship sig radius and sensor strength that is you break using ECCM mods will make your ship impossible to probe down, very few ships however can pull it off because the need for low sig radius and high sensor strength automatically makes it impossible for battlecruisers and up. I (well, Burn Eden, really) present to you the 4-ECCM (or 3 overheated) Nightmare with a Grail implant set and a Loki with Evasive Maneuvers link.
Leksi Bar'zuk	Posted - 2010.11.13 03:40:00 - [49] Edited by: Leksi Bar''zuk on 13/11/2010 03:42:04 Originally by: Liang Nuren Admitting defeat, you are. Originally by: Faffywaffy I (well, Burn Eden, really) present to you the 4-ECCM (or 3 overheated) Nightmare with a Grail implant set and a Loki with Evasive Maneuvers link. BE has all the fun -_-.
Mavnas	Posted - 2010.11.13 03:43:00 - [50] Originally by: Faffywaffy Originally by: Aessoroz Theres a ratio between ship sig radius and sensor strength that is you break using ECCM mods will make your ship impossible to probe down, very few ships however can pull it off because the need for low sig radius and high sensor strength automatically makes it impossible for battlecruisers and up. I (well, Burn Eden, really) present to you the 4-ECCM (or 3 overheated) Nightmare with a Grail implant set and a Loki with Evasive Maneuvers link. I somehow doubt that ship is particularly practical.
Dray Caldari Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.11.13 14:21:00 - [51] Originally by: Mavnas Originally by: Faffywaffy Originally by: Aessoroz Theres a ratio between ship sig radius and sensor strength that is you break using ECCM mods will make your ship impossible to probe down, very few ships however can pull it off because the need for low sig radius and high sensor strength automatically makes it impossible for battlecruisers and up. I (well, Burn Eden, really) present to you the 4-ECCM (or 3 overheated) Nightmare with a Grail implant set and a Loki with Evasive Maneuvers link. I somehow doubt that ship is particularly practical. You'd be surprised actually.
Lady Thanatos Nomadic Shadows	Posted - 2010.11.13 18:31:00 - [52] It has also been reported you can do it with a machariel as well
Dray Caldari Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.11.13 22:18:00 - [53] Originally by: Baudolino Everything gets balanced. Missiles got balanced 3-4 times in the years i`ve played. Stacking penalties, nos nerf and of course the speed nerf.. speed was nerfed because dramatic speed gave a massive advantage. Being unprobable makes you invulnerable. There`s a vast conceptual crevice between the two. Being hard to probe is fair and balanced, being UNprobable is gamebreaking and not in line with the EVE universe. Will CCP let this one slide though- since the UNprobable players are the carebear and PvE community? Forgot to add "working as intended" so no nerf needed.
XXSketchxx Gallente Remote Soviet Industries	Posted - 2010.11.14 15:47:00 - [54] Linkage to CCP Dropbear discussing his use of this mechanic. My only gripe is the safespotted bonus giving. CCP has actually stated in the past that eventually they would like it such that warfare link modules only work when the giving ship is on grid so maybe some day we'll see this limitation. Otherwise, get over it.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.11.14 17:16:00 - [55] Originally by: Baudolino Being unprobable makes you invulnerable. There`s a vast conceptual crevice between the two. You have no idea how eve works do you? 0/10
Tasko Pal Aliastra	Posted - 2010.11.14 19:19:00 - [56] Originally by: Faffywaffy Originally by: Aessoroz Theres a ratio between ship sig radius and sensor strength that is you break using ECCM mods will make your ship impossible to probe down, very few ships however can pull it off because the need for low sig radius and high sensor strength automatically makes it impossible for battlecruisers and up. I (well, Burn Eden, really) present to you the 4-ECCM (or 3 overheated) Nightmare with a Grail implant set and a Loki with Evasive Maneuvers link. With a bit of work a cyclone (and I think a ferox too) can be made probe-proof. That's useful for some schemes though it's not worth the bother in general.
Packe Minmatar Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2010.11.14 21:54:00 - [57] I have killed an unprobable gang link loki over 60 au from any celestial. I have a virtue set alt with max skills that couldnt probe them down solo so they were truely 'unprobable'. Well, not really. Leaving a Loki in space will lead to its eventual death and all ships that were relying on it for safety. If you are going for 4 links you will find yourself in the market for some more officer co-pros.
Ghoest	Posted - 2010.11.14 22:58:00 - [58] @ OP haha crai more noob Seriously I mean it. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Commoner Caldari The Tuskers	Posted - 2010.11.14 23:39:00 - [59] Originally by: XXSketchxx Linkage to CCP Dropbear discussing his use of this mechanic. My only gripe is the safespotted bonus giving. CCP has actually stated in the past that eventually they would like it such that warfare link modules only work when the giving ship is on grid so maybe some day we'll see this limitation. Otherwise, get over it. If they do that, i hope they make warfare links passive mods ala. lowslot resist mods.
R'adeh Gallente Storm Solutions Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2010.11.15 00:59:00 - [60] Unnecessary nerf! In order to be unprobable, you have to sacrifice damage/tank to an extent that makes you a lot easier to kill. Also, while you're at a SS and unprobable, you are NOT able to hurt anyone...just like a cloaked ship sitting at a SS. _______________________________________________ <Random sig with a hot chick>
Lady Skank Ban Evasion inc	Posted - 2010.11.15 10:02:00 - [61] Edited by: Lady Skank on 15/11/2010 10:02:43 Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk Edited by: Leksi Bar''zuk on 12/11/2010 18:55:54 Grow some balls and camp in nullsec (good bubble team can catch a t3 even with a diction nullifier) or stfu and learn to take whatever you get. Living in lolsec is a choice and you're consequently going to loose a lot of targets. Similarly, you won't get pounded by the likes me an my alliance becase we don't bother to up-root and dragass into fail-space with our fleets unless we're using it as a jump-off point to invade elsewhere. You lowsec players get less risk than us and want even moar tearz (rather than isk reward), well sorry Jr. that's not how it works. Take off your training wheels some day and join us in the real EVE or move back to empire and suicide ganking. Lowsec will always be that half-assed pvp where players are always safe enough to use a full hq implant set and get away with it. Come back and talk tough when you can go out and pvp with less than 40 people in gang. lol@ nullsec blobbers thinking that their pvp is somehow "real pvp"
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2010.11.15 10:05:00 - [62] Originally by: Lady Skank Edited by: Lady Skank on 15/11/2010 10:02:43 Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk Edited by: Leksi Bar''zuk on 12/11/2010 18:55:54 Grow some balls and camp in nullsec (good bubble team can catch a t3 even with a diction nullifier) or stfu and learn to take whatever you get. Living in lolsec is a choice and you're consequently going to loose a lot of targets. Similarly, you won't get pounded by the likes me an my alliance becase we don't bother to up-root and dragass into fail-space with our fleets unless we're using it as a jump-off point to invade elsewhere. You lowsec players get less risk than us and want even moar tearz (rather than isk reward), well sorry Jr. that's not how it works. Take off your training wheels some day and join us in the real EVE or move back to empire and suicide ganking. Lowsec will always be that half-assed pvp where players are always safe enough to use a full hq implant set and get away with it. Come back and talk tough when you can go out and pvp with less than 40 people in gang. lol@ nullsec blobbers thinking that their pvp is somehow "real pvp" QFT
Kastsumi Kobayariel	Posted - 2010.11.15 10:18:00 - [63] Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk Grow some balls and camp in nullsec [...] Similarly, you won't get pounded by the likes me an my alliance [...] Take off your training wheels some day and join us in the real EVE Hahahaha this is gold. Tell us more of this real EVE you speak of.
xenodia Gallente DYNAMIC INTERVENTION ORPHANS OF EVE	Posted - 2010.11.15 19:23:00 - [64] Originally by: Socio Stan Quote: New Incursion Stuff òToggling probes in overview I don't think any mission runner has much to worry about, whether they use a T3 or not. I already have probes showing on all my overview presets.... all incursion does is make it so anyone can do it without any extra work. This signature space for rent
Target Painter	Posted - 2010.11.16 06:33:00 - [65] In a way, Leksi has a point. People are complaining that unprobable mission-runners are impossible to catch in lowsec. And it's pretty much true, odds of catching myself or any other unprobable mission-runner is pretty damned low. Whereas in null, I've been caught several times, including once where there were so many bubbles on a gate that my gfx card overheated and EVE crashed. The chest-beating about hardcore PvP is pretty stupid though.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.11.16 09:01:00 - [66] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 16/11/2010 09:02:28 Originally by: Target Painter In a way, Leksi has a point. People are complaining that unprobable mission-runners are impossible to catch in lowsec. And it's pretty much true, odds of catching myself or any other unprobable mission-runner is pretty damned low. Whereas in null, I've been caught several times, including once where there were so many bubbles on a gate that my gfx card overheated and EVE crashed. The chest-beating about hardcore PvP is pretty stupid though. TBH the chances of catching any savvy low sec mission runner are pretty low - unprobeable or not. -Liang Ed: I should extend that to 0.0 mission running as well. I've done quite a bit of both. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
Spectre Wraith Darwin Inc.	Posted - 2010.11.16 09:56:00 - [67] Quote: Personally I think mission spaces should be safer in low sec. That deadspace should have effects that make scanning more difficult not necessarily impossible just much more difficult. You must be new here.
Ophelia Ursus	Posted - 2010.11.16 10:20:00 - [68] TBH, I'd rather have all ships in deadspace areas be unprobeable but make it possible to scan down all deadspace signatures, mission and escalation sites included (at least when there's a ship inside them). If a typical mission had a base signal strength comparable to a 6/10 plex, even the best probers would need a few cycles to get a warpin, giving the target a much more reasonable period of time in which to spot the probes. Unprobeable mission boats are kind of silly, but so is the fact that when I'm on my game, I can probe down anything cruiser-sized or bigger with a single scan cycle, provided that it's not unprobeable. And ganglink bonuses need to only apply to ships on the same grid as the booster. Signature removed.
fairimear Gallente The Sp00Ks	Posted - 2010.11.16 11:10:00 - [69] I am sure they can fix cloakers and unprobable ships. Just as soon as they fix insta warping npc'ers. Pos huggers and station spinners. War is nastie people. Its not a polite activity thats meant to be fair. If one side can fuel a war unhindered because of one set of mechanics you can not really complain about another side using equally annoying tactics to stop them. In a perfect world maybe. But hey look at it this way. Before every one ***ed about NOS and drones and missiles and ecm you could find npc'er in belts and they would fight. now you dnt... is balance really progress. Bringing a type of class to PL.**
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux War.Pigs.	Posted - 2010.11.16 16:28:00 - [70] Originally by: Ophelia Ursus TBH, I'd rather have all ships in deadspace areas be unprobeable but make it possible to scan down all deadspace signatures, mission and escalation sites included (at least when there's a ship inside them). If a typical mission had a base signal strength comparable to a 6/10 plex, even the best probers would need a few cycles to get a warpin, giving the target a much more reasonable period of time in which to spot the probes. Unprobeable mission boats are kind of silly, but so is the fact that when I'm on my game, I can probe down anything cruiser-sized or bigger with a single scan cycle, provided that it's not unprobeable. I'm not really a fan of this particular approach. Quote: And ganglink bonuses need to only apply to ships on the same grid as the booster. And this doesn't solve what you want it to. Its still very possible to have no-risk gang mods running, and really I'm not of the opinion that leadership skills are particularly in need of a nerf. Perhaps you have a problem with unprobeable T3s? Fine - have a problem with them. But that's not really a problem with leadership skills. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
WorkingOnIt	Posted - 2010.11.16 16:42:00 - [71] Edited by: WorkingOnIt on 16/11/2010 16:43:45 Originally by: Baudolino speed was nerfed because dramatic speed gave a massive advantage. Being unprobable makes you invulnerable. There`s a vast conceptual crevice between the two. The vast difference between the 2... Think about what you have said Dramatic speed= you can engage a taget to kill/pin it.. Your speed kills its tracking/expl radius, if it is breaking you then your speed allows you to back out. Unprobeable= Carebares dareing low-sec/null, means carebares getting killed at gate camps or caught in bubbles, if its unprobable it cant engage because its sacraficed its tank gank to hide.. Conclusion, Dramatic speed was never fair or balenced BUT unprobeable ships still are at a huge risk in 0.4 and below, also if they wernt unprobeable they wouldnt be there in the first place.. Basicly its better they are unprobeable means theres more oppotunity to kill them..
heheheh Phoenix Club	Posted - 2010.11.16 16:47:00 - [72] Originally by: Liang Nuren TBH the chances of catching any savvy low sec mission runner are pretty low - unprobeable or not. -Liang Ed: I should extend that to 0.0 mission running as well. I've done quite a bit of both. QFT No one has had a sniff of me for months.
Miss President Caldari SOLARIS ASTERIUS	Posted - 2010.11.17 05:36:00 - [73] See no need for them to get nerfed, not all ships can be made unprobable and make dps sense, if you made it out that far and invested that much isk you probably deserve it.
Target Painter	Posted - 2010.11.17 09:20:00 - [74] The times I've been caught: 1. Landed on a smartbombing gatecamp. 2. Mass bubbled gate caused my EVE to crash. 3. Decloaked instantly by a 15-20ish roam. 4. Target-painting rats got off consecutive cycles at the exact wrong time. 5. Two times I've gotten snagged by instalocking gatecamps, before I could even cloak (which is bull****, BTW). Of course, those are stretched out over the last nine months or so, with three of them happening in the first two months. But still, definitely not untouchable.
Lanais Suleia	Posted - 2010.11.17 09:22:00 - [75] Originally by: Packe I have killed an unprobable gang link loki over 60 au from any celestial. I have a virtue set alt with max skills that couldnt probe them down solo so they were truely 'unprobable'. Well, not really. Leaving a Loki in space will lead to its eventual death and all ships that were relying on it for safety. If you are going for 4 links you will find yourself in the market for some more officer co-pros. I've found the kill you're talking about, and yeah Capons would have been unprobeable if he had at least an LG jackal set and the eccms were running. So, care to say what happened? Or is it gonna be one of those "You're just gonna have to believe me." statements which are all too common on these forums.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.11.17 10:31:00 - [76] Originally by: Lanais Suleia Originally by: Packe I have killed an unprobable gang link loki over 60 au from any celestial. I have a virtue set alt with max skills that couldnt probe them down solo so they were truely 'unprobable'. Well, not really. Leaving a Loki in space will lead to its eventual death and all ships that were relying on it for safety. If you are going for 4 links you will find yourself in the market for some more officer co-pros. I've found the kill you're talking about, and yeah Capons would have been unprobeable if he had at least an LG jackal set and the eccms were running. So, care to say what happened? Or is it gonna be one of those "You're just gonna have to believe me." statements which are all too common on these forums. The simpler explaination is that he forgot to activate the ECCMs or he forgot to switch to his Jackal clone. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Target Painter	Posted - 2010.11.17 11:10:00 - [77] Originally by: Malcanis The simpler explaination is that he forgot to activate the ECCMs or he forgot to switch to his Jackal clone. Extra fail if he misclicked and overheated without actually turning the module on.
Zane Nucleus Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe Transmission Lost	Posted - 2010.11.17 12:34:00 - [78] Learning to play > unprobable ships
Lanais Suleia	Posted - 2010.11.17 18:55:00 - [79] Originally by: Zane Nucleus Learning to play > unprobable ships Yeah or he was missing (or had lost) the L5 sub skill. Or he actually got caught on a gate, not a safespot. Or he was warped to by a gangmate who got probed down. Or any number of reasons other than "I am magical and can probe out people who are unprobeable.".

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