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moronv EastEnd Industries 0	Posted - 2012.08.08 13:33:00 - [1] - Quote Well it looks like my playing days are over, The Hulk has finally been nerfed. Max Ore cargo 8,500 m3 cant expand it any bigger so when my 3 accounts expire it will be goodbye eve. Well done ccp
Malsavias Toralen Kleinrock Heavy Industries Kleinrock Group 4	Posted - 2012.08.08 13:41:00 - [2] - Quote Seems a tad overdramatic. No change for me as I kept my hulky tanked.
Erinn Sylvanus NovaTech Universal Intersteller Alliance 6	Posted - 2012.08.08 13:42:00 - [3] - Quote So fly a Mackinaw instead. 35000 m3 ore hold. Slightly less yield than a Hulk, but obviously the ore hold is most important to you if you're about to quit over it.
Sarik Olecar Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 74	Posted - 2012.08.08 13:45:00 - [4] - Quote Your name says it all...
moronv EastEnd Industries 0	Posted - 2012.08.08 13:49:00 - [5] - Quote I see, so you all jetcan mined, none of you actually sat in a roid field and mined for 15 minute with 17199 m3 of ore in your cargo. Oh and macks have gone from 80 mill to 257 mill
Malsavias Toralen Kleinrock Heavy Industries Kleinrock Group 4	Posted - 2012.08.08 13:54:00 - [6] - Quote moronv wrote: I see, so you all jetcan mined, none of you actually sat in a roid field and mined for 15 minute with 17199 m3 of ore in your cargo. Oh and macks have gone from 80 mill to 257 mill And hulk prices are around 230 mill in Jita, trade the hulk in for a tiny loss. As for Jetcan mining, well yeah that's how I got in my hauler. All three accounts miners?
moronv EastEnd Industries 0	Posted - 2012.08.08 14:00:00 - [7] - Quote Yes just swapping them now
Malsavias Toralen Kleinrock Heavy Industries Kleinrock Group 4	Posted - 2012.08.08 14:01:00 - [8] - Quote I'm thinking of doing the same, it's just way to juicy to pass up, glad you found the new nitch. Happy mining and good luck beating back the vile asteroid menace.
moronv EastEnd Industries 0	Posted - 2012.08.08 14:07:00 - [9] - Quote Well just sold 3 hulks and bought 3 macks at a loss of about 27 mill. shame i never bought them yesterday at 3 for 270 mill. I pity people that have manufactured hulks who will want to buy them now?
moronv EastEnd Industries 0	Posted - 2012.08.08 14:10:00 - [10] - Quote so will rigs increase the 28k ore hold or is 28k the max
Echo Mande 32	Posted - 2012.08.08 14:11:00 - [11] - Quote moronv wrote: I see, so you all jetcan mined, none of you actually sat in a roid field and mined for 15 minute with 17199 m3 of ore in your cargo. Oh and macks have gone from 80 mill to 257 mill No, I didn't do that. I had an orca alt (and a second hulk) to haul my ore to station. With two hulks it took 30-40 minutes to fill the orca. The barges and exhumers have changed, you'll have to reread the description. The ships' roles are no longer defined by what they mine but by how they mine. Take how they mine into account before choosing (and buying) your ship. I'll have to look at the descriptions to be sure but I might stay with my hulks. YMMV
Caruleum Ursa Orion Ore International 0	Posted - 2012.08.08 14:13:00 - [12] - Quote MINERS WERE DECEIVED by promo for the INFERNO RELEASE ! They promoted this new release as an IMPROVEMENT for MINING, but... CCP SHRUNK THE SIZE OF HULK CARGO HOLDS FROM ~1000+ to ~350k. HULK PILOTS cannot even keep replacement sets of mining lasers in their Cargo Holds, anymore. HULK is now essentially WORTHLESS for multi-purpose mining. There is no reason to train for HULK, anymore, imho. IMHO, this will be remembered as one of the biggest nerfs in the history of EvE. Who would ever even want to buy a HULK, anymore? It doesn't even have HOLD big enough for the MINING CRYSTALS! Oh, wai... it's ALSO supposed to MINE STUFF? OMG OMG OMG. But, fear not,... YES, they buffed the smaller versions so you can now go into combat with your SKIFF and MACKINAW. HA HA HA - I get the joke. But, it's a cruel joke for those who earn isk by mining. Time to SELL YOUR MINING CHAR! [Or, I guess you could buy a MACK and improve it with some T/P TECH.] BAH, HUMBUG! So much time WASTED in training up for the NOW WORTHLESS HULKS!
moronv EastEnd Industries 0	Posted - 2012.08.08 14:19:00 - [13] - Quote I have 3 hulk pilots 1 flys an orca and stays put in my pos he also has a mindlink + all the relevant head gear, my other 2 hulk pilots mined to the 1,7199 m3 hold which filled in 5 minutes and back to pos to unload so about so about 35 -40 mill an hour. I will try out the 3 macks i just bought and hopefully i want be to far down on iskies. But the whole thing is a joke
Toroup Prometheus Deep Core Mining 19	Posted - 2012.08.08 14:20:00 - [14] - Quote Wow, ok. So if you want the marginally better yield of the Hulk then jetcan it and have a hauler. If you want to solo mine then use the Mack. No reason to be so over dramatic about it. Hulks have better yield but you have to haul to make it work. It's a change, you adapt. For me personally, I have always jetcanned so it really doesn't matter.
Toroup Prometheus Deep Core Mining 19	Posted - 2012.08.08 14:21:00 - [15] - Quote Caruleum Ursa wrote: MINERS WERE DECEIVED by promo for the INFERNO RELEASE ! They promoted this new release as an IMPROVEMENT for MINING, but... CCP SHRUNK THE SIZE OF HULK CARGO HOLDS FROM ~1000+ to ~350k. HULK PILOTS cannot even keep replacement sets of mining lasers in their Cargo Holds, anymore. HULK is now essentially WORTHLESS for multi-purpose mining. There is no reason to train for HULK, anymore, imho. IMHO, this will be remembered as one of the biggest nerfs in the history of EvE. Who would ever even want to buy a HULK, anymore? It doesn't even have HOLD big enough for the MINING CRYSTALS! Oh, wai... it's ALSO supposed to MINE STUFF? OMG OMG OMG. But, fear not,... YES, they buffed the smaller versions so you can now go into combat with your SKIFF and MACKINAW. HA HA HA - I get the joke. But, it's a cruel joke for those who earn isk by mining. Time to SELL YOUR MINING CHAR! [Or, I guess you could buy a MACK and improve it with some T/P TECH.] BAH, HUMBUG! So much time WASTED in training up for the NOW WORTHLESS HULKS! Two seconds away from an embolism - calm down.
Bad Axe Innovative Dynamics 0	Posted - 2012.08.08 14:26:00 - [16] - Quote Toroup wrote: Wow, ok. So if you want the marginally better yield of the Hulk then jetcan it and have a hauler. If you want to solo mine then use the Mack. No reason to be so over dramatic about it. Hulks have better yield but you have to haul to make it work. It's a change, you adapt. For me personally, I have always jetcanned so it really doesn't matter. Really?
Dave stark Black Nova Corp. 378	Posted - 2012.08.08 14:35:00 - [17] - Quote Bad Axe wrote: Toroup wrote: Wow, ok. So if you want the marginally better yield of the Hulk then jetcan it and have a hauler. If you want to solo mine then use the Mack. No reason to be so over dramatic about it. Hulks have better yield but you have to haul to make it work. It's a change, you adapt. For me personally, I have always jetcanned so it really doesn't matter. Really? every one with a braincell jetcan mines, before today no ships had a big enough capacity to justify not jetcan mining. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold.
Zifrian Licentia Ex Vereor Intrepid Crossing 375	Posted - 2012.08.08 14:44:00 - [18] - Quote LOL Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour!
Toroup Prometheus Deep Core Mining 19	Posted - 2012.08.08 14:45:00 - [19] - Quote Bad Axe wrote: Toroup wrote: Wow, ok. So if you want the marginally better yield of the Hulk then jetcan it and have a hauler. If you want to solo mine then use the Mack. No reason to be so over dramatic about it. Hulks have better yield but you have to haul to make it work. It's a change, you adapt. For me personally, I have always jetcanned so it really doesn't matter. Really? Um yeah, what did you do - cram in cargo expander rigs which then lowered your EHP all in the fear of getting flipped? So you can either lose a can of ore valued at 5-6M or you can make your 270M ship weaker and increase the chances of it getting spaced.
Xearal Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance 342	Posted - 2012.08.08 14:54:00 - [20] - Quote You obviously did not read/check what the new setup is for mining barges and exhumers. Profurer/Skiff is now the king of tanky mining. Retriever/Mack is now the king of cargo hold / afk mining. Covetor/Hulk is (still) the king of Yield. It's meant to be used in large groups with an orca to provide caro space. and/or haulers to move the ore. You want cargo hold, go for a mack, you want yield, go for a hulk, it has more yield than anything, and now also for ice mining and mercoxit mining. You just have to have a hauler to move your piles of ore. not a nerf, definitely a boost, as they all also got increased ehp. Just learn how to use the new setups.. and if you're mining in 3 mining ships, you might want to consider using an orca and 2 hulks then, or 3 macks if you really want the cargo space.
Caruleum Ursa Orion Ore International 1	Posted - 2012.08.08 14:58:00 - [21] - Quote OK, so now I get it, but I still don't like it. I was really pissed off because I couldn't undock (due to being overloaded 2-3x of cargo capacity just because of my standard assortment of MINING CRYSTALS). Now I see that ALL these ships now have GREATLY REDUCED CARGO HOLDs, so you can't undock with a standard set of MINING CRYSTALS. This "upgrade" forces you to explore first, find your spot, and then go back to load one or two sets of mining crystals (rather than your full kit bag of mining crystals). Instead of a decent cargo hold space for the mining crystals AND ore, you an "itty bitty" cargo hold and some larger "ore holds" for ore only. The new cargo hold won't even hold a full six pack of beer. Forget about taking any smokes or exotic dancers out there! In other words, null sec miners will be wasting a LOT of time docking and undocking to change their mining laser crystals. This still sounds like a NERF to me.
Lady Ayeipsia Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 314	Posted - 2012.08.08 14:59:00 - [22] - Quote Toroup wrote: Bad Axe wrote: Toroup wrote: Wow, ok. So if you want the marginally better yield of the Hulk then jetcan it and have a hauler. If you want to solo mine then use the Mack. No reason to be so over dramatic about it. Hulks have better yield but you have to haul to make it work. It's a change, you adapt. For me personally, I have always jetcanned so it really doesn't matter. Really? Um yeah, what did you do - cram in cargo expander rigs which then lowered your EHP all in the fear of getting flipped? So you can either lose a can of ore valued at 5-6M or you can make your 270M ship weaker and increase the chances of it getting spaced. Or... 2 cargo expanded rigs, 1 t2 cargo expander mod, 1 dc2 and a little tank in the mid. 13.5 cargo bay and enough tank to survuve the casual ganker. Doc or warp to pos when full. Sure it wasn't the most optimal isk per hour, but i could mine semi afk.
Bad Axe Innovative Dynamics 0	Posted - 2012.08.08 15:02:00 - [23] - Quote Xearal wrote: You obviously did not read/check what the new setup is for mining barges and exhumers. Profurer/Skiff is now the king of tanky mining. Retriever/Mack is now the king of cargo hold / afk mining. Covetor/Hulk is (still) the king of Yield. It's meant to be used in large groups with an orca to provide caro space. and/or haulers to move the ore. You want cargo hold, go for a mack, you want yield, go for a hulk, it has more yield than anything, and now also for ice mining and mercoxit mining. You just have to have a hauler to move your piles of ore. not a nerf, definitely a boost, as they all also got increased ehp. Just learn how to use the new setups.. and if you're mining in 3 mining ships, you might want to consider using an orca and 2 hulks then, or 3 macks if you really want the cargo space. May be u right! Now i have to buy another 3 or 5 useless ships.
Pinstar Colton Sweet Asteroid Acres 219	Posted - 2012.08.08 15:06:00 - [24] - Quote People please. It is simple. Hulk/Covetor = Fleet mining (With Orca support to scoop ore and hold extra mining crystals if needed) Mack/Retriever = Solo jet can mining without the risk of needing a jet can. The smaller cargo hold on the Hulk/Covetor is there specifically because they aren't designed to hold the ore they mine. They are supposed to be used in situations where someone else is doing the hauling. Orcas have bays to refit your ships so you can use them to swap/replace mining crystals right there on the belt without needing to warp or lose much mining time at all. The Mack/Retriever's jet can sized ore bays are designed for solo mining. They are intended to carry their own crystals and haul their own ore. In exchange for the ability to solo, the raw extraction rate is a bit lower. This makes the choice of solo mining vs fleet mining a viable one. Each has their own advantages and drawbacks and each has a ship now that can fill the role. Now, look at the prices of macks. Skyrocketing huh? 3 guesses as to what style of mining most players choose. The hulk has not been nerfed, it just has a new, more defined role. Solo mining in general is getting a massive buff with this update. In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse.
Megnamon The Generic Pirate Corporation Fusion. 26	Posted - 2012.08.08 15:13:00 - [25] - Quote moronv wrote: Well it looks like my playing days are over, The Hulk has finally been nerfed. Max Ore cargo 8,500 m3 cant expand it any bigger so when my 3 accounts expire it will be goodbye eve. Well done ccp So sad to see you go. Can I haz ur stuff??
Rengerel en Distel Amarr Science and Industry 288	Posted - 2012.08.08 15:23:00 - [26] - Quote You'd think a miner would read any of the other dozens of threads about the changes before they actually took place. Not like any of this is a secret.
Zicon Shak'ra Vacuo Anomalia 33	Posted - 2012.08.08 15:24:00 - [27] - Quote Cry more. Zicon makes popcorn Wormholes are cool, m'kay?
Ghost Frog Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2012.08.08 15:33:00 - [28] - Quote ITT: people who couldn't be bothered to read several MONTHS worth of posts on the topic edit: you do realize that you can jettison your ore for immediate pickup, rather than just letting the can sit there, right? You know it's two minutes to jettison another can? You know the mining cycle is longer than that? Are you putting 2+2 together yet?
Teibor Quay Industries 5	Posted - 2012.08.08 15:35:00 - [29] - Quote Megnamon wrote: moronv wrote: Well it looks like my playing days are over, The Hulk has finally been nerfed. Max Ore cargo 8,500 m3 cant expand it any bigger so when my 3 accounts expire it will be goodbye eve. Well done ccp So sad to see you go. Can I haz ur stuff?? except for the Hulks obviously, let him keep them as a souvenir.
Vincent Athena V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief 899	Posted - 2012.08.08 15:39:00 - [30] - Quote Caruleum Ursa wrote: OK, so now I get it, but I still don't like it. I was really pissed off because I couldn't undock (due to being overloaded 2-3x of cargo capacity just because of my standard assortment of MINING CRYSTALS). Now I see that ALL these ships now have GREATLY REDUCED CARGO HOLDs, so you can't undock with a standard set of MINING CRYSTALS. This "upgrade" forces you to explore first, find your spot, and then go back to load one or two sets of mining crystals (rather than your full kit bag of mining crystals). Instead of a decent cargo hold space for the mining crystals AND ore, you an "itty bitty" cargo hold and some larger "ore holds" for ore only. The new cargo hold won't even hold a full six pack of beer. Forget about taking any smokes or exotic dancers out there! In other words, null sec miners will be wasting a LOT of time docking and undocking to change their mining laser crystals. This still sounds like a NERF to me. Including whats in the strips, a Hulk can hold 4 crystal sets + spares. If you are mining a belt, you already know what to expect in your system. Load in the 4 most likely ore types. If its a grav site, you want to go out and set bookmarks in any case, so take a look to see whats still there, not mined out yet, so you know what crystals to load. If you are out for so long that the initial 4 sets of crystals are not enough, use whatever hauls in ore to haul out more crystals. If you mine and warp, you can get your own crystals. If a hauler comes out for jet cans, it can drop off crystals on the same trip. A Hulk can hold sufficient crystals to last 2 hours (the lifetime of a jet can). If you use an orca in the belt, have it carry the extras. I use to keep all my spare crystals in the orca. I did that so I could move ore to the orca by clicking in the hulk hold, hit control-a, drag it all to the orca. If crystals were in the hulk, they would get moved too. Now with crystals separate from the ore I can keep crystals in the hulk. When one pops I can get a new one in much faster, keeping all the strips synchronized. (Keeping strips synchronized helps when you run multiple clients on a laptop. You do not have to keep switching back and forth between clients to catch the miner cycles.) Short version: For me this is a buff all the way, and crystal management is only a small issue, and for me actually better. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/
Malsavias Toralen Kleinrock Heavy Industries Kleinrock Group 7	Posted - 2012.08.08 15:40:00 - [31] - Quote Hey, neat trick, run 2 hulks with a retriever or a Mack, insta mining hauler.
nat longshot solo and loveing it Windowlicking Ninja Turtles 57	Posted - 2012.08.08 15:48:00 - [32] - Quote Caruleum Ursa wrote: MINERS WERE DECEIVED by promo for the INFERNO RELEASE ! They promoted this new release as an IMPROVEMENT for MINING, but... CCP SHRUNK THE SIZE OF HULK CARGO HOLDS FROM ~1000+ to ~350k. HULK PILOTS cannot even keep replacement sets of mining lasers in their Cargo Holds, anymore. HULK is now essentially WORTHLESS for multi-purpose mining. There is no reason to train for HULK, anymore, imho. IMHO, this will be remembered as one of the biggest nerfs in the history of EvE. Who would ever even want to buy a HULK, anymore? It doesn't even have HOLD big enough for the MINING CRYSTALS! Oh, wai... it's ALSO supposed to MINE STUFF? OMG OMG OMG. But, fear not,... YES, they buffed the smaller versions so you can now go into combat with your SKIFF and MACKINAW. HA HA HA - I get the joke. But, it's a cruel joke for those who earn isk by mining. Time to SELL YOUR MINING CHAR! [Or, I guess you could buy a MACK and improve it with some T/P TECH.] BAH, HUMBUG! So much time WASTED in training up for the NOW WORTHLESS HULKS! WAAAA cant carry 30 crystal's any more meaning you have to plan out what you mine cry some more!!
CowNoseTheCat The Scope Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2012.08.08 15:49:00 - [33] - Quote Much has been said in this thread that I won't repeat, however I would like to chime in and say that this pilot will continue to use her hulk and I don't see my game changing much at all!
CorInaXeraL Order of the Silver Dragons Silver Dragonz 124	Posted - 2012.08.08 15:53:00 - [34] - Quote This has been entertaining. I am out of popcorn.
Ghost Frog Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2012.08.08 16:08:00 - [35] - Quote Malsavias Toralen wrote: Hey, neat trick, run 2 hulks with a retriever or a Mack, insta mining hauler. How dare you think for yourself?
Alyssa SaintCroix Leihkasse Stammheim 31	Posted - 2012.08.08 16:29:00 - [36] - Quote Maybe it's just me but I'm curious where you were looking for Macks at because for the longest time I've only ever seen them at ~200mil/piece.
Crexa Star Mandate 13	Posted - 2012.08.08 16:56:00 - [37] - Quote Ok, so lets assume the OP has had a nervious breakdown and the Hulk is still a useful ship. Any ideas on re-arranging a fit that boosted max cargo to something else? No need to be tank heavy. "...its breakfast time and i am very hungry. may i have some of your paint chips?"
Bommel McMurdoc East Khanid Trading Khanid Trade Syndicate 14	Posted - 2012.08.08 17:17:00 - [38] - Quote I'm finding it very hard to swallow this ..... rage. especially with the name "moronv."
Omnathious Deninard M'Tar Logistics Division Night Sky Alliance 30	Posted - 2012.08.08 17:29:00 - [39] - Quote Dear CCP, My cookie cutter broke, i dont know what to do now, i have these choices to make and i am confused, what is this Fleet mining Ops? Please fix my cookie cutter so i dont have to think. confused lasy miner Now for the real talk, i love the changes, i dont fit for max yeald, so the 8500m3 ore bay is perfect for 2 full cycles, i even traded my mackinaw for a second hulk, i get a good tank also with the medium overclocking rig, and still have the calabration for the ice mining rig. I am looking forward to more changes, including the idea of removing off grid boostiing
Javajunky Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation 33	Posted - 2012.08.08 17:30:00 - [40] - Quote Caruleum Ursa wrote: MINERS WERE DECEIVED by promo for the INFERNO RELEASE ! They promoted this new release as an IMPROVEMENT for MINING, but... CCP SHRUNK THE SIZE OF HULK CARGO HOLDS FROM ~1000+ to ~350k. HULK PILOTS cannot even keep replacement sets of mining lasers in their Cargo Holds, anymore. HULK is now essentially WORTHLESS for multi-purpose mining. There is no reason to train for HULK, anymore, imho. IMHO, this will be remembered as one of the biggest nerfs in the history of EvE. Who would ever even want to buy a HULK, anymore? It doesn't even have HOLD big enough for the MINING CRYSTALS! Oh, wai... it's ALSO supposed to MINE STUFF? OMG OMG OMG. But, fear not,... YES, they buffed the smaller versions so you can now go into combat with your SKIFF and MACKINAW. HA HA HA - I get the joke. But, it's a cruel joke for those who earn isk by mining. Time to SELL YOUR MINING CHAR! [Or, I guess you could buy a MACK and improve it with some T/P TECH.] BAH, HUMBUG! So much time WASTED in training up for the NOW WORTHLESS HULKS! None of you saw this post where I was raging about this for like a month? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1687869#post1687869 This had nothing to do with people who mine as a profession, we all got the big middle finger from CCP on this you have to realize it. This was purely empire pubbie love pure and simple.
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 916	Posted - 2012.08.08 18:33:00 - [41] - Quote Malsavias Toralen wrote: Hey, neat trick, run 2 hulks with a retriever or a Mack, insta mining hauler. Hey, we'll have none of that creative thinking in this whine thread [Kudos though for using your noggin and adapting.]
Aaron Younger Saltatio Vita AAA Citizens 0	Posted - 2012.08.08 18:35:00 - [42] - Quote Javajunky wrote: None of you saw this post where I was raging about this for like a month? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1687869#post1687869 This had nothing to do with people who mine as a profession, we all got the big middle finger from CCP on this you have to realize it. This was purely empire pubbie love pure and simple. The only people who aren't complaining about this is empire pubbies, because they know its a null sec nerf and it doesn't bother them one bit they only mine empire ores... they have never had to flip a grav site... I mine Grav sites daily (nothing challenging about them at all, easier than belts actually) and this in no way affects my gameplay except now I have to switch to Mercoxite and Ice rigs from Cargo Rigs. These changes are mainly for people in High Sec and those that wish for a safer play style your right but its def not a nerf to Null Sec Dwellers. If you mine in Null Grav sites your already going to be in a fleet with a hauler and if your not then, well, IDK what to tell you. Let your hauler bring crystals out for you if you need more than you can hold, it's not hard.
Syphon Lodian Fabled Enterprises 85	Posted - 2012.08.08 18:56:00 - [43] - Quote moronv wrote: so when my 3 accounts expire it will be goodbye eve. Well done ccp Contract me your Mining Assets, and I will keep them safe. I'm part of an industrial enterprise.
Idris Helion University of Caille Gallente Federation 8	Posted - 2012.08.08 19:20:00 - [44] - Quote moronv wrote: Well it looks like my playing days are over, The Hulk has finally been nerfed. Max Ore cargo 8,500 m3 cant expand it any bigger so when my 3 accounts expire it will be goodbye eve. Well done ccp So buy a Mack instead. Way bigger cargo, slightly less yield. Fair trade, IMO. (Plus Macks are a hell of a lot cheaper than a Hulk, though I doubt that will still be true to the same extent going forward.)
Idris Helion University of Caille Gallente Federation 8	Posted - 2012.08.08 19:28:00 - [45] - Quote Dave stark wrote: Bad Axe wrote: Toroup wrote: Wow, ok. So if you want the marginally better yield of the Hulk then jetcan it and have a hauler. If you want to solo mine then use the Mack. No reason to be so over dramatic about it. Hulks have better yield but you have to haul to make it work. It's a change, you adapt. For me personally, I have always jetcanned so it really doesn't matter. Really? every one with a braincell jetcan mines, before today no ships had a big enough capacity to justify not jetcan mining. Yep. It's been ages since I've seen anyone with a Hulk doing anything other than jetcanning (or using an Orca). I never kept more than 1 cycle of ore in my bay at any given time anyhow, so the cargohold changes wouldn't affect me much in any case. Actually, having a larger ore bay may finally make jetcanning more trouble than it's worth in the Mack. And I'm really glad I bought some Rets and Macks back when I heard the barge changes were in the offing. This change also finally makes it worthwhile to buy the lowly Procurer, a ship that prior to this change only served to provide a hull for the Skiff. This change is a MAJOR change for the better, IMO.
Javajunky Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation 34	Posted - 2012.08.08 19:30:00 - [46] - Quote Aaron Younger wrote: Javajunky wrote: None of you saw this post where I was raging about this for like a month? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1687869#post1687869 This had nothing to do with people who mine as a profession, we all got the big middle finger from CCP on this you have to realize it. This was purely empire pubbie love pure and simple. The only people who aren't complaining about this is empire pubbies, because they know its a null sec nerf and it doesn't bother them one bit they only mine empire ores... they have never had to flip a grav site... I mine Grav sites daily (nothing challenging about them at all, easier than belts actually) and this in no way affects my gameplay except now I have to switch to Mercoxite and Ice rigs from Cargo Rigs. These changes are mainly for people in High Sec and those that wish for a safer play style your right but its def not a nerf to Null Sec Dwellers. If you mine in Null Grav sites your already going to be in a fleet with a hauler and if your not then, well, IDK what to tell you. Let your hauler bring crystals out for you if you need more than you can hold, it's not hard. You know nothing of multi-boxing. Sorry you're missing the point. The hulk cargo bay nerf is a nerf on Multi-boxers, legitimate players. Hmmm.. I got 10 hulks - which ones are doing which now... oh well I'm done with Ark, let me switch - oh but no flcuk me wait now I gotta wait for a rorq to undock and get my crytals... oh fluckin wonderful, no everything is out of sync again - need to restart so everyhting is cylcing..... see all things things I just said here... nothing you've experienced unless you're a mulit-boxer. Seriously... like me chiming in on the Gymnastics events at the Olympics when the only thing I reall know whats going on in - is baseball...
Idris Helion University of Caille Gallente Federation 8	Posted - 2012.08.08 19:42:00 - [47] - Quote Crexa wrote: Ok, so lets assume the OP has had a nervious breakdown and the Hulk is still a useful ship. Any ideas on re-arranging a fit that boosted max cargo to something else? No need to be tank heavy. Hulks are now considered fleet-mining vessels. If you solo and need ore-storage more than raw yield, go with a Mack. Also, since a Mack only needs 2 crystals rather than 3, you'll save a bit of coin on re-outfitting. Not a big deal, but every ISK helps. But honestly, most hisec miners I know who use Hulks have corp-members/alts who drive haulers for them. As I said in a previous post, it's been forever since I've actually seen someone use a Hulk for ore-hauling. It was silly to use it that way even before the barge changes -- the Hulk was for yield, not transport. That's still true. All the miners got something nice: null and lowsec miners got a BS-tanked hull (Procurer/Skiff), hisec miners got a massive ore bay (Retriever/Mackinaw), and fleet miners got a whole load of cheaper Hulks now that everyone else will be selling them. I think CCP did a really good job on this one. (However, I reserve the right to change my opinion once I see how high the price for a Mack goes when I log in tonight....)
Aaron Younger Saltatio Vita AAA Citizens 0	Posted - 2012.08.08 19:44:00 - [48] - Quote Javajunky wrote: Aaron Younger wrote: Javajunky wrote: None of you saw this post where I was raging about this for like a month? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1687869#post1687869 This had nothing to do with people who mine as a profession, we all got the big middle finger from CCP on this you have to realize it. This was purely empire pubbie love pure and simple. The only people who aren't complaining about this is empire pubbies, because they know its a null sec nerf and it doesn't bother them one bit they only mine empire ores... they have never had to flip a grav site... I mine Grav sites daily (nothing challenging about them at all, easier than belts actually) and this in no way affects my gameplay except now I have to switch to Mercoxite and Ice rigs from Cargo Rigs. These changes are mainly for people in High Sec and those that wish for a safer play style your right but its def not a nerf to Null Sec Dwellers. If you mine in Null Grav sites your already going to be in a fleet with a hauler and if your not then, well, IDK what to tell you. Let your hauler bring crystals out for you if you need more than you can hold, it's not hard. You know nothing of multi-boxing. Sorry you're missing the point. The hulk cargo bay nerf is a nerf on Multi-boxers, legitimate players. Hmmm.. I got 10 hulks - which ones are doing which now... oh well I'm done with Ark, let me switch - oh but no flcuk me wait now I gotta wait for a rorq to undock and get my crytals... oh fluckin wonderful, no everything is out of sync again - need to restart so everyhting is cylcing..... see all things things I just said here... nothing you've experienced unless you're a mulit-boxer. Seriously... like me chiming in on the Gymnastics events at the Olympics when the only thing I reall know whats going on in - is baseball... GJ on being wrong again. I do multibox, not with 10 accounts, but if your doing that many the door is that way ---->>> dont be worried about that bright stuff its called sunlight. If your running 10 accounts your already committed to mining being a second (or first) job and I don't feel bad for your "problem". I've yet to run into any problems running 4 accounts while NEVER keeping crystals in the Miners. Spread those lasers out a little more so your not overlapping ores as much. Or better yet hit an ice field, only a little less ISK/HR with almost no headache and easier logistics.
Caruleum Ursa Orion Ore International 2	Posted - 2012.08.08 19:53:00 - [49] - Quote Basically, you hit the nail on the head. The Cargo Bay Nerf makes it a lot harder to switch crystals on the fly. Even if you plan ahead, when you work in a mining group then the damn roid will go POP and you have to swtich out crystals. If you are with a good group of miners flipping grav sites, you will have to switch crystals out OFTEN. And, then there's also those burned out crystals that need to be replaced... You WON'T GET TO KEEP REPLACEMENTS IN YOUR CARGO HOLD ANY MORE... Depending where you are located, there won't be a lot of orcas running about to solve your problems ... as the ORCA is mostly a creature of EMPIRE. So, yeah. This is a big cookie for the EMPIRE MINERS, but ONLY if they like to keep their CRYSTALS in their ORCA. I vaguely remember when I did mine in empire 4 yuears ago that those roids pop really fast and crystals needed to change often. OK. So, you claim it's not a bug and it's not a nerf. IT's just another FEATURE that happens to make playing EvE a bit more difficult for certain people... Yeah, sure. Only more difficult for people who aren't mining in EMPIRE into their ORCA. LET'S START A REVOLUTION. CONTACT YOUR C S M TODAY! DEMAND BIGGER CARGO HOLDS! WE WANT OUR CARGO HOLDS BACK ! ! ! I don't care WHAT they say so far. I still feel like I was deceived by all the promo saying this would help miners. Most people I know were already jet canning and didn't really need this new fat "ore hold". And, who cares about a battleship procurer, anyways? KUDOS for making frigates shiny, but why nerf our well loved "EvE standard" HULK????
Javajunky Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation 34	Posted - 2012.08.08 19:53:00 - [50] - Quote Aaron Younger wrote: Stuff . Get back to me when you've got more than 10 accounts.
Aaron Younger Saltatio Vita AAA Citizens 0	Posted - 2012.08.08 19:56:00 - [51] - Quote Javajunky wrote: Aaron Younger wrote: Stuff . Get back to me when you've got more than 10 accounts. Hahaha. I think I heard you mom saying your sandwhiches were done but that shes sorry she forgot the Dunkaroos. Like i said the door is that way ------------->>>>>>>>>>>
Idris Helion University of Caille Gallente Federation 8	Posted - 2012.08.08 20:05:00 - [52] - Quote Caruleum Ursa wrote: RAGE IN ALL CAPS!!!! If you're a nullsec miner and carry all that crap in your Hulk, you're doing it wrong. You need to find a mining crew who knows what they're doing. If you're maxing cargo on a Hulk in nullsec, you're begging for a gank -- a properly-tanked nullsec Hulk didn't have much cargo room even before the change. It sounds to me like your problem is ****-poor logistics, not a lack of ore-hold capacity.
Caruleum Ursa Orion Ore International 2	Posted - 2012.08.08 20:33:00 - [53] - Quote Idris Helion wrote: Caruleum Ursa wrote: RAGE IN ALL CAPS!!!! If you're a nullsec miner and carry all that crap in your Hulk, you're doing it wrong. You need to find a mining crew who knows what they're doing. If you're maxing cargo on a Hulk in nullsec, you're begging for a gank -- a properly-tanked nullsec Hulk didn't have much cargo room even before the change. It sounds to me like your problem is ****-poor logistics, not a lack of ore-hold capacity. Oh, good advice. I just need a new corporation in Null Sec! What is the name of your PvP Corp/Alliance with the regular mining crews that will give me free T2 crystals? It's not one of those Gypsy Renter groups, is it?
Voltlock Universal Freelance CONSORTIUM UNIVERSALIS 1	Posted - 2012.08.08 20:45:00 - [54] - Quote Caruleum Ursa wrote: Oh, good advice. I just need a new corporation in Null Sec! Or you can just fit a Skiff, work it out. It really wouldn't be hard to solo mine in nullsec with one, it has a 15,000m3 ore hold, plenty of room for a "set" of crystals, as in it only has one miner and only needs 1 crystal. It's also small and likely quick to align for warp, so I'd imagine it wouldn't hurt fitting a couple astronautic rigs to improve inertia. As for low slots? Warp core stabilisers, sure it reduces your target range by a lot, but you could just save a location close to the roids and warp in there.
Idris Helion University of Caille Gallente Federation 8	Posted - 2012.08.08 20:53:00 - [55] - Quote Caruleum Ursa wrote: Idris Helion wrote: Caruleum Ursa wrote: RAGE IN ALL CAPS!!!! If you're a nullsec miner and carry all that crap in your Hulk, you're doing it wrong. You need to find a mining crew who knows what they're doing. If you're maxing cargo on a Hulk in nullsec, you're begging for a gank -- a properly-tanked nullsec Hulk didn't have much cargo room even before the change. It sounds to me like your problem is ****-poor logistics, not a lack of ore-hold capacity. Oh, good advice. I just need a new corporation in Null Sec! What is the name of your PvP Corp/Alliance with the regular mining crews that will give me free T2 crystals? It's not one of those Gypsy Renter groups, is it? Let me explain it slowly for you: nullsec mining is about logistics, not yield. It doesn't matter how much ore you mine if you can't turn it into ISK. If you are into manufacturing for nullsec markets, you'd probably do better to buy ore rather than mine it yourself; if you're into selling ore, you should be focusing on Orca/Rorqual mining gangs (with appropriate escort). But if you're determined to mine in the lamest and most inefficient possible way in nullsec, then buy a Mack and take your chances against the rats or buy a Skiff and tank them. Or move back to Empire space.
Sentamon Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 114	Posted - 2012.08.08 20:54:00 - [56] - Quote moronv wrote: Well it looks like my playing days are over, The Hulk has finally been nerfed. Max Ore cargo 8,500 m3 cant expand it any bigger so when my 3 accounts expire it will be goodbye eve. Well done ccp Can I have your Hulks? ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~
Ginger Barbarella State War Academy Caldari State 42	Posted - 2012.08.08 21:08:00 - [57] - Quote moronv wrote: Well it looks like my playing days are over, The Hulk has finally been nerfed. Max Ore cargo 8,500 m3 cant expand it any bigger so when my 3 accounts expire it will be goodbye eve. Well done ccp Let me guess: you paid for a full year, and you'll be "quitting" when that year is up in 8 months. UNLESS CCP dares to "fix" the problem... Uh-huh...
Caruleum Ursa Orion Ore International 2	Posted - 2012.08.08 22:10:00 - [58] - Quote Idris Helion wrote: Caruleum Ursa wrote: Idris Helion wrote: Caruleum Ursa wrote: RAGE IN ALL CAPS!!!! If you're a nullsec miner and carry all that crap in your Hulk, you're doing it wrong. You need to find a mining crew who knows what they're doing. If you're maxing cargo on a Hulk in nullsec, you're begging for a gank -- a properly-tanked nullsec Hulk didn't have much cargo room even before the change. It sounds to me like your problem is ****-poor logistics, not a lack of ore-hold capacity. Oh, good advice. I just need a new corporation in Null Sec! What is the name of your PvP Corp/Alliance with the regular mining crews that will give me free T2 crystals? It's not one of those Gypsy Renter groups, is it? Let me explain it slowly for you: nullsec mining is about logistics, not yield. It doesn't matter how much ore you mine if you can't turn it into ISK. If you are into manufacturing for nullsec markets, you'd probably do better to buy ore rather than mine it yourself; if you're into selling ore, you should be focusing on Orca/Rorqual mining gangs (with appropriate escort). But if you're determined to mine in the lamest and most inefficient possible way in nullsec, then buy a Mack and take your chances against the rats or buy a Skiff and tank them. Or move back to Empire space. Oh, wai... I thought I had to join YOUR group to get it right. But, you won't tell me who it is. Darn. [Did he dectect troll?] I was really looking forward to getting some FREE T-2 mining crystals from your ORCA/RORQUAL. It's probably just best to switch over and do ratting, once again. Better isk in the anoms, and less hassle. I did enjoy building stuff, but perhaps that's better left to the EMPIRE DWELLERS with HULK/ORCA combos. That's probably what CCP intended, anyways. I can put my HULK on the shelf next to the Fighters from my 2005 Carrier. Awesome stuff. P.S. - it's amazing to me how many people apparently couldn't afford to field a full set of mining crystals - guess those guys really won't care. They aren't concerned about YIELD or EFFICIENCY and so they probably prefer using a SKIFF, now, anyways.
CorInaXeraL Order of the Silver Dragons Silver Dragonz 125	Posted - 2012.08.08 22:14:00 - [59] - Quote Caruleum Ursa wrote: Idris Helion wrote: Caruleum Ursa wrote: Idris Helion wrote: Caruleum Ursa wrote: RAGE IN ALL CAPS!!!! If you're a nullsec miner and carry all that crap in your Hulk, you're doing it wrong. You need to find a mining crew who knows what they're doing. If you're maxing cargo on a Hulk in nullsec, you're begging for a gank -- a properly-tanked nullsec Hulk didn't have much cargo room even before the change. It sounds to me like your problem is ****-poor logistics, not a lack of ore-hold capacity. Oh, good advice. I just need a new corporation in Null Sec! What is the name of your PvP Corp/Alliance with the regular mining crews that will give me free T2 crystals? It's not one of those Gypsy Renter groups, is it? Let me explain it slowly for you: nullsec mining is about logistics, not yield. It doesn't matter how much ore you mine if you can't turn it into ISK. If you are into manufacturing for nullsec markets, you'd probably do better to buy ore rather than mine it yourself; if you're into selling ore, you should be focusing on Orca/Rorqual mining gangs (with appropriate escort). But if you're determined to mine in the lamest and most inefficient possible way in nullsec, then buy a Mack and take your chances against the rats or buy a Skiff and tank them. Or move back to Empire space. Oh, wai... I thought I had to join YOUR group to get it right. But, you won't tell me who it is. Darn. [Did he dectect troll?] I was really looking forward to getting some FREE T-2 mining crystals from your ORCA/RORQUAL. It's probably just best to switch over and do ratting, once again. Better isk in the anoms, and less hassle. I did enjoy building stuff, but perhaps that's better left to the EMPIRE DWELLERS with HULK/ORCA combos. That's probably what CCP intended, anyways. I can put my HULK on the shelf next to the Fighters from my 2005 Carrier. Awesome stuff. P.S. - it's amazing to me how many people apparently couldn't afford to field a full set of mining crystals - guess those guys really won't care. They aren't concerned about YIELD or EFFICIENCY and so they probably prefer using a SKIFF, now, anyways. I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE YELLING ABOUT. Seriously, I'm having a difficult time making sense of whatever the gripe is. Apparently someone who has a stuck CAPS KEY is not happy? Or wanted free stuff...or has no clue how to do much of anything at all save forum-rage. Seriously, it sounds like someone's yelling for the sake of yelling. Just adapt and overcome, there's plenty of logic and advice posted in here already. Oh, you might want to have your keyboard checked. The Caps/Shift key seems to malfunction often.
Homo Jesus The LGBT Last Supper 32	Posted - 2012.08.08 22:28:00 - [60] - Quote I mistakenly trained for a Hulk when I first started playing to make money and stopped at a Retriever when I realized just stealing the ore was more lucrative. It was also a much more active type of game-play. I thought those skill points were a total waste after becoming an outlaw...until today. Now, I can mine the good stuff in a decent ship while I wait for prey which I previously wouldn't do because it would mean jet canning and if ya think that's dumb in high sec do it in low where shooting it is ok. This one is a win all around for people with braincells that still function normally. P.S. Everyone take 5 minutes and learn how to locate and read patch notes the day before a patch is released if ya don't understand what just happened.
zoni Ishikela State War Academy Caldari State 11	Posted - 2012.08.08 22:56:00 - [61] - Quote I think the biggest nerf is that it nails the bots, for a while anyway and THAT is a good thing in my book. I actually look forward to mining with these changes and I wish there were in place when I first started training for this stuff, er. two years ago now... Z.
Grouchtor Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.08.08 23:52:00 - [62] - Quote The Hulk change blows red monkey a$$. CCP you have nicely fuxxored my livelyhood.
Derath Ellecon Washburne Holdings 291	Posted - 2012.08.09 00:52:00 - [63] - Quote Grouchtor wrote: The Hulk change blows red monkey a$$. CCP you have nicely fuxxored my livelyhood. Confirming that mining rots the brain
Darth Snuggles Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2012.08.09 01:33:00 - [64] - Quote My God, what a flood of salty sweetness... Keep it going, kids... I need my pool filled by Friday for a block party.
Styth spiting Ion Corp. NightSong Directorate 46	Posted - 2012.08.09 02:48:00 - [65] - Quote It simply amazes me how many miners are ignorant to the mining mechanics prior to today's patch. People who are saying hulks were nerfed, or that these changes are bad for miners are either stupid, or have no understanding of what these new changes mean for miners. Ok, so lets break things down pre-patch and compare them to ships are they are today. 1) Hulks have more yield prior to patch. a) In fact now that hulks no longer need medium cargohold optimizations you can now use a medium drone mining augmenter I, which increases your yield by 600,000 +/- isk per hour, which is yet more isk per hour to the all ready increase in yield. b) Prior to patch people would outfit their hulks for max tank. This setup would yield 3% LESS yield per cycle than a covetor (fitted for max yield, and implants), meaning flying a hulk was a waste when you could be in a ship that cost 10x less. A hulk fitted for tank pre-patch would yield less than a skiff post-patch. Meaning now if you need to be concerned with tank a skiff yield more than what a pre-patch tank would have yielded, but with much more tank, and at 1/3rd the price. 2) Hulk and cargo hold space. a) Prior to patch people would outfit their hulks for max cargo hold. Again this setup would yield 3% LESS yield per cycle than a covetor (fitted for max yield and implants). But you could hold several cycles worth of ore (4 if I recall). b) For those who have all ready forgotten, the hulks cargo hold was small to begin with. Even with medium cargo hold optimization I's the hulk could hold about 1 cycle of ore (when fitted for yield) or maybe 2 cycles if you were not using mining drones II and only had a few mining crystals in your cargo hold. A hulk fitted for cargo hold per-patch would yield less than a Mackinaw post-patch. This means if you want to AFK/idle mine and not worry about cycles or you are solo mining and don't want to jet can the mackinaw with its 30,000m3 cycle not only yields more than a pre-patch Hulk, it also has a huge cargo hold compared to a hulk fitted for space, at a much cheaper price tag. 2) Solo mining. a) per-patch solo players would either jetcan, fit their ship for cargo space, or mine to station Jetcanning still required 3 or more trips per hour hauling to station. Well guess what. With the mackinaw the time saved per hour out yields a hulk jet canning. And it obviously out yields a hulk mining to station, and now you have no worries about having your cans flipped. b) Dual boxing players who use an Orca/Hulk setup will now yield FAR greater per hour dual mining in mackinaws. The only benefit to the oOca/Hulk combo was the ability to mine directlly into the Orca, while the boosts made it worth the loss in per hour yield. Well now using 2 mackinaws you can increase your hourly yield and make 2 station trips for every 1 orca station trip you would have needed in the past, with an obviously much cheaper, easier to train to setup for higher yields. 3) Ice mining a) Ice mining is better in every way. Really no reason to compare per-patch data. Its better. So to summarize every situation per-patch you would fit your hulk for (yield, cargohold, tank) is now better in every way possible. Want tank? Well you have a really cheap; almost disposable ship that yields more and has more tank. Want cargohold? You now have a ship that yields more with a much larger cargo hold. Want yield? You now have a ship that yields more. Do you dual box? Well you're going to yield more and do less work. So there you have it. Now I want each of you to smack yourselves in the head, say "Oh this update is awesome!" and if need be dance around the room
Sith1s Spectre Sky Fighters Talocan United 7	Posted - 2012.08.09 03:29:00 - [66] - Quote Came looking for miner tears.. Left with a full cup. MMM salty goodness May you be one with Bob
Salpad Carebears with Attitude 40	Posted - 2012.08.09 03:41:00 - [67] - Quote moronv wrote: so will rigs increase the 28k ore hold or is 28k the max No, I have no information saying that CCP has introduced new rig types that act on the size of the ore bay, instead of the cargo bay.
Asklepiodes Bre-X Heavy Industries 0	Posted - 2012.08.09 10:12:00 - [68] - Quote Styth spiting wrote: Lots of words. I'm presuming you're addressing your comments to high sec miners as they seem totally wrong when put in the context of 0.0. Most of the 0.0 fleets I see are literally that ... fleets. That bears no relation to 1-2 character mining. In 0.0 you usually have say 2 people running between them a rorqual booster, orca hauler and then 4-5 miners each. Everyone else will usually pile in with pure miners to the point where you need a second orca hauler. Its also done in anomalies. With bubbles and bridges personal tanks are essentially irrelevant as you'll die if you're tackled - you literally just need enough tank for 1 ship to tank the rats. In fact most of the fleets I've seen recently just use a cloud of shield drones from several miners and everyone else is full mining setup (the "tank" will have a light meta 4 shield tank and the resist/sig links on the rorqual) . Depending on the gang and how many hours they're planning to use some of the fleets I see barely use mining drones at all and almost univerally don't use mining implants except for in the rorquals as unlike in high sec we do stand a good chance of losing the pod if we lose the ship. Statistically for us in 0.0 the patch doesn't look great at all - the changes to hulks don't really help us at all and in fact have irritating downsides such as the limitation on crystal storage. Irritating but not game breakers as we'll just switch to using the orca's for storage of crystals I suspect. Of course the orca pilots won't like it as it means instead of warping well away from us and mass tractoring cans in (much safer for them in 0.0) they'll have to come to literally by the miners. I guess if CCP's goal was to push people to mine greater volumes in high sec then I'm sure it will succeed and I could almost hear every afk miner and macro mining crying tears of joy when they read the changes. If it was to boost mining eve wise and give people more options than just the hulk it patently fails as far as career 0.0 miners go. PS: I'm getting very varying comments on yields from different people in 0.0 as regards ice with the change from macks to hulk's so not commenting on that side as I suspect its down to people's varying setups but that will get sorted over the next couple of weeks.
moronv EastEnd Industries 0	Posted - 2012.08.09 10:34:00 - [69] - Quote Hold on folks, i have changed my mind. Took my 2 macks out with 35k m3 hold and full orca booster and guess what.............i am raking in much more than i did with hulks. 35 mill an hour with hulks, 50 mill an hour with macks. I love this change
Daedra Blue Atomic Biohazard 20	Posted - 2012.08.09 11:05:00 - [70] - Quote moronv wrote: Hold on folks, i have changed my mind. Took my 2 macks out with 35k m3 hold and full orca booster and guess what.............i am raking in much more than i did with hulks. 35 mill an hour with hulks, 50 mill an hour with macks. I love this change Always try before you buy, ..... or whine.
Dave stark Black Nova Corp. 418	Posted - 2012.08.09 12:14:00 - [71] - Quote moronv wrote: Hold on folks, i have changed my mind. Took my 2 macks out with 35k m3 hold and full orca booster and guess what.............i am raking in much more than i did with hulks. 35 mill an hour with hulks, 50 mill an hour with macks. I love this change then you're doing something wrong, you'll never mine more with a mackinaw than you can with a hulk, even after the patch. oh wait, i remember now you were the guy leaving your orca in a pos and mining with expanded hulks, that's what you were doing wrong. never mind. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold.
moronv EastEnd Industries 0	Posted - 2012.08.09 12:27:00 - [72] - Quote Dave stark wrote: moronv wrote: Hold on folks, i have changed my mind. Took my 2 macks out with 35k m3 hold and full orca booster and guess what.............i am raking in much more than i did with hulks. 35 mill an hour with hulks, 50 mill an hour with macks. I love this change then you're doing something wrong, you'll never mine more with a mackinaw than you can with a hulk, even after the patch. oh wait, i remember now you were the guy leaving your orca in a pos and mining with expanded hulks, that's what you were doing wrong. never mind. Are you saying i was mining with a wrong setup or i was mining wrong with the way you setup. With a mack you can fit 3 mining upgrades with fully fitted orca and skills this out mines (fills a mack 35k m3 in 15 minutes) a hulk that is fitted for mining to pos. I used to mine with max fitted cargo hulks and not for max yield as my method is for the most relaxing way to mine.
TheSkeptic Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 24	Posted - 2012.08.09 12:59:00 - [73] - Quote moronv wrote: Well it looks like my playing days are over, The Hulk has finally been nerfed. Max Ore cargo 8,500 m3 cant expand it any bigger so when my 3 accounts expire it will be goodbye eve. Well done ccp so long o/ Don't let the door hit you on the way out
Motoko Kusanagui State War Academy Caldari State 2	Posted - 2012.08.09 15:23:00 - [74] - Quote Guys come on read and try to understand before you come and make angry threads. moronv wrote: Hold on folks, i have changed my mind. Took my 2 macks out with 35k m3 hold and full orca booster and guess what.............i am raking in much more than i did with hulks. 35 mill an hour with hulks, 50 mill an hour with macks. I love this change Oh good you did it, better late than never.
Mr Beardsley Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 7	Posted - 2012.08.09 18:58:00 - [75] - Quote CCP needs to offer some sort of rig buy-back program when they do major changes like this. The Hulk was the ONLY mining ship for any purpose but ice mining. The only rigs worth using on it were cargo rigs, because the ones that boost a single type of mineral yield are only good for a small number of nullsec gangs. Add to that the loss you'll take trading a Hulk for a Mack and miners just got taken sans lube. Again.
Mr Beardsley Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 7	Posted - 2012.08.09 19:10:00 - [76] - Quote TheSkeptic wrote: moronv wrote: Well it looks like my playing days are over, The Hulk has finally been nerfed. Max Ore cargo 8,500 m3 cant expand it any bigger so when my 3 accounts expire it will be goodbye eve. Well done ccp so long o/ Don't let the door hit you on the way out Right, because what EVE really needs is LESS new blood. How's the view from your ivory tower?
Derath Ellecon Washburne Holdings 291	Posted - 2012.08.09 19:13:00 - [77] - Quote Mr Beardsley wrote: CCP needs to offer some sort of rig buy-back program when they do major changes like this. The Hulk was the ONLY mining ship for any purpose but ice mining. The only rigs worth using on it were cargo rigs, because the ones that boost a single type of mineral yield are only good for a small number of nullsec gangs. Add to that the loss you'll take trading a Hulk for a Mack and miners just got taken sans lube. Again. Haha.
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance 331	Posted - 2012.08.09 19:29:00 - [78] - Quote moronv wrote: Well it looks like my playing days have just been revived, The Hulk has finally been nerfed. Max Ore cargo 8,500 m3 cant expand it any bigger so now i switch to macks with a fantastic 35k m3 ore hold thankyou ccp and less yield.. it's a trade off. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Velicitia Open Designs 1061	Posted - 2012.08.09 19:31:00 - [79] - Quote Derath Ellecon wrote: Mr Beardsley wrote: CCP needs to offer some sort of rig buy-back program when they do major changes like this. The Hulk was the ONLY mining ship for any purpose but ice mining. The only rigs worth using on it were cargo rigs, because the ones that boost a single type of mineral yield are only good for a small number of nullsec gangs. Add to that the loss you'll take trading a Hulk for a Mack and miners just got taken sans lube. Again. Haha. I think he's serious. ... which makes it all the funnier.
Zicon Shak'ra Vacuo Anomalia 37	Posted - 2012.08.09 19:45:00 - [80] - Quote Velicitia wrote: Derath Ellecon wrote: Mr Beardsley wrote: CCP needs to offer some sort of rig buy-back program when they do major changes like this. The Hulk was the ONLY mining ship for any purpose but ice mining. The only rigs worth using on it were cargo rigs, because the ones that boost a single type of mineral yield are only good for a small number of nullsec gangs. Add to that the loss you'll take trading a Hulk for a Mack and miners just got taken sans lube. Again. Haha. I think he's serious. ... which makes it all the funnier. WHY WOULD I WANT TO FIT A TANK ON MY EXHUMER?!?!?! Wormholes are cool, m'kay?
CorInaXeraL Order of the Silver Dragons Silver Dragonz 129	Posted - 2012.08.09 20:03:00 - [81] - Quote moronv wrote: It's OK guys, I GOT THIS. Roger that.
Jorma Morkkis State War Academy Caldari State 137	Posted - 2012.08.09 20:08:00 - [82] - Quote Mr Beardsley wrote: The only rigs worth using on it were cargo rigs Cargo rigs have been worst rigs for barges/exhumers from day one.
Derath Ellecon Washburne Holdings 292	Posted - 2012.08.09 21:48:00 - [83] - Quote Velicitia wrote: Derath Ellecon wrote: Mr Beardsley wrote: CCP needs to offer some sort of rig buy-back program when they do major changes like this. The Hulk was the ONLY mining ship for any purpose but ice mining. The only rigs worth using on it were cargo rigs, because the ones that boost a single type of mineral yield are only good for a small number of nullsec gangs. Add to that the loss you'll take trading a Hulk for a Mack and miners just got taken sans lube. Again. Haha. I think he's serious. ... which makes it all the funnier. Yea Boo hoo. When the drone amps came out I had to break some pricey sentry damage rigs to optimize my fits too. Stuff happens.
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 917	Posted - 2012.08.09 21:57:00 - [84] - Quote I'm mining the same amount as before in my Hulk, and it has more EHP now, so I don't agree it was nerfed. It would be more accurate to state it wasn't buffed as much as the others.
Cold Fury Predominate 0	Posted - 2012.08.09 21:57:00 - [85] - Quote Wow. Really? This ruins my solo experience quite a bit. I barely have time to play and when I do I just mine with my Hulk and now my cargo space is raped to nothing. Fantastic. Thanks CCP.
Derath Ellecon Washburne Holdings 292	Posted - 2012.08.09 23:47:00 - [86] - Quote Cold Fury wrote: Wow. Really? This ruins my solo experience quite a bit. I barely have time to play and when I do I just mine with my Hulk and now my cargo space is raped to nothing. Fantastic. Thanks CCP. Such little vision. Buy Mack Mine almost as good as a hulk. Better afk with a 35k ore bay.
Aud Actori Ciomach Industry 4	Posted - 2012.08.10 08:45:00 - [87] - Quote moronv wrote: Well just sold 3 hulks and bought 3 macks at a loss of about 27 mill. shame i never bought them yesterday at 3 for 270 mill. I pity people that have manufactured hulks who will want to buy them now? Hulks still have a niche; its just you that hasn't found it.
Aud Actori Ciomach Industry 4	Posted - 2012.08.10 10:37:00 - [88] - Quote Mr Beardsley wrote: CCP needs to offer some sort of rig buy-back program when they do major changes like this.. ROFL!
JC Anderson Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group 679	Posted - 2012.08.10 10:40:00 - [89] - Quote Last time I flew a mining ship was in 07 or so. I think I can fly up to a covetor but can't uses exhumers.... Or maybe I can. At the moment can't login to check. I have and fly an orca though. But I doubt the skills would be the same for exhumers. Anyhow... did they only change exhumers? Or are barges different too? Is it worth dusting off my covetor?
Julien Brellier Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2012.08.10 11:57:00 - [90] - Quote Hulk gets more HP, more PG, more CPU and still outmines anything else. Hulk pilots start dozens of TEARZ threads. I don't understand.........
moronv EastEnd Industries 1	Posted - 2012.08.10 12:07:00 - [91] - Quote Barbara Nichole wrote: moronv wrote: Well it looks like my playing days have just been revived, The Hulk has finally been nerfed. Max Ore cargo 8,500 m3 cant expand it any bigger so now i switch to macks with a fantastic 35k m3 ore hold thankyou ccp and less yield.. it's a trade off. No not less yield more yield much more yield, reason is i kine to a pos so my hulks had cargo expanders etc... My macks with there 35k m3 ore holds allow me to fit 3 mining laser upgrades so much more yield infact i am mining 25-30 mill more per hour with 2 macks boosted by a fully maxed out orca stationed in pos.
xxzartanxx Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2012.08.10 12:19:00 - [92] - Quote Mr Beardsley wrote: CCP needs to offer some sort of rig buy-back program when they do major changes like this.. [/quote] They should do the same with the subscription fees and the GTC's when they go free to play at some point hahaha.
vyshnegradsky MNU Operations Luna Sanguinem 6	Posted - 2012.08.10 13:22:00 - [93] - Quote Caruleum Ursa wrote: MINERS WERE DECEIVED by promo for the INFERNO RELEASE ! They promoted this new release as an IMPROVEMENT for MINING, but... CCP SHRUNK THE SIZE OF HULK CARGO HOLDS FROM ~1000+ to ~350k. HULK PILOTS cannot even keep replacement sets of mining lasers in their Cargo Holds, anymore. HULK is now essentially WORTHLESS for multi-purpose mining. There is no reason to train for HULK, anymore, imho. IMHO, this will be remembered as one of the biggest nerfs in the history of EvE. Who would ever even want to buy a HULK, anymore? It doesn't even have HOLD big enough for the MINING CRYSTALS! Oh, wai... it's ALSO supposed to MINE STUFF? OMG OMG OMG. But, fear not,... YES, they buffed the smaller versions so you can now go into combat with your SKIFF and MACKINAW. HA HA HA - I get the joke. But, it's a cruel joke for those who earn isk by mining. Time to SELL YOUR MINING CHAR! [Or, I guess you could buy a MACK and improve it with some T/P TECH.] BAH, HUMBUG! So much time WASTED in training up for the NOW WORTHLESS HULKS! Oh he mad
Vincent Athena V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief 910	Posted - 2012.08.10 13:37:00 - [94] - Quote nat longshot wrote: WAAAA cant carry 30 crystal's any more meaning you have to plan out what you mine cry some more!! Actually, you can get 30 crystals in a hulk, at least for your trip to the mining site. What Im thinking of here is the case where you are going to a mining op many jumps away and want to bring as many crystals as possible. What you do is Strip the lows and add expanded cargoholds Load in small and medium cans Fill said cans with crystals and your old low modules Fly to the designated system Dock up, trade your extra crystals to the hauler (its a fleet op, theres going to be a hauler) Refit your lows Go mine The issue is this is alot of extra steps for hulk pilots that they use to not have to do. But it can be done. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/
Idris Helion University of Caille Gallente Federation 14	Posted - 2012.08.10 14:21:00 - [95] - Quote Dave stark wrote: Bad Axe wrote: Toroup wrote: Wow, ok. So if you want the marginally better yield of the Hulk then jetcan it and have a hauler. If you want to solo mine then use the Mack. No reason to be so over dramatic about it. Hulks have better yield but you have to haul to make it work. It's a change, you adapt. For me personally, I have always jetcanned so it really doesn't matter. Really? every one with a braincell jetcan mines, before today no ships had a big enough capacity to justify not jetcan mining. QFT If you were solo mining in a Hulk without a dedicated hauler or an Orca nearby, you were wasting your Hulk's yield on trips back to station. (In Eve as in RL, time is money. Time you spend running back to station to offload is time you're not spending in the belt burning up roids, hence less ISK in your pocket.) If you were running a cargo-maxed Hulk, you sacrificed MLU's in your lows, which meant that you were sacrificing up to 10% of your per-cycle yield...essentially for nothing, because simply having a hauler nearby and jetcanning your ore is not only more efficient and faster, it also allows you do ditch the cargo expanders and fit MLU's in your lows (or armor tank of some kind). And instead of spending a ridiculous amount of money on cargo rigs, you can get armor/shield rigs instead and keep your Hulk properly tanked. The new Ret/Mack may finally make jetcanning less efficient than storing the ore onboard in some scenarios. People crying about "losing" their high-cost cargo rigs need to remember two things: 1) it's only a loss if you sell or re-rig your Hulk; and 2) the rigs still expand your (smaller) cargo bay. Also, I wish all the whiners would actually read the patch notes -- a Mack will produce damned near the same yield your Hulk did prior to the patch, have nearly as big a tank, and a ginormous ore hold (35K m3) that puts even your old cargo-maxed Hulk to shame. The only downside is that you can't carry three different sets of every mining crystal in creation, but doing this was FAIL even before the patch. Your Orca or hauler should be carrying spare crystals out to you. 1 spare set on board for your high-value types works just fine. (And you can anchor some secure containers around the belt and warehouse more crystals if you're afraid you'll run low while there's no support ship around.) For hisec mining, the Mack is an omg pimpmobile mining platform -- it may actually be overpowered for its role because it'll make AFK mining and botting even more prevalent now. And it'll do this for about 2/3 of what it used to cost to get a properly-fitted Hulk. I'm actually seeing places where I'd use a Retriever rather than a Mack -- at 10% of the cost of a Mack, a Ret is in the same ballpark in terms of ore capacity and yield, and it'd be perfect for higher-risk ops where you don't want to lose your expensive Mack (such as during Hulkageddon). The Hulk still has a place in fleets -- in fact, if you were jetcan mining before, your playstyle won't change at all. The Hulk is still the king of yield; it's just not the end-all be-all mining vessel it used to be. Which is a good thing, not a bad thing. People moaning about the "nerf" to the Hulk don't understand the concpet of "opportunity cost" very well. The longer I'm in the belt running my lasers on roids, the higher my ISK/hr. Better yield from my lasers won't help if I'm running back and forth to the station every five minutes. And giving my Hulk a paper tank because I want to max my cargo is FAIL when some ganker comes along and blows up my expensive ship because I couldn't be bothered to tank it properly -- all that extra cargo space I sacrificed my tank to get now just cost me a 300M ISK ship. More tank, less gank, kids. You're never safe in EVE, even in hisec. One more thing about tank: you can tank up a Mack to be almost as strong as an untanked Skiff, with a way bigger ore-hold. I'm glad that the Procurer/Skiff hull finally has some larger purpose in the game, but I still think that even low and nullsec players will opt for a tanked Mack rather than a Skiff si
Ooda Treasures Collectors Solar Citizens 20	Posted - 2012.08.10 16:02:00 - [96] - Quote The Hulk is still the best, but it has terrible effort vs reward ratio. It takes 30 times more attention than a Mack - multiply this by 3 times and you know why I've changed to macks and started to mine ice. No crystalcrap - no roidswitching and hell - it's still awesomly good - screw the crappy ~2.5 million you lose by using macks instead of a hulk. So all in all - hulk is dead for me.
Shayla Sh'inlux Aliastra Gallente Federation 36	Posted - 2012.08.10 23:32:00 - [97] - Quote Quote: Oh and macks have gone from 80 mill to 257 mill Macks have never sold for 80mil... They were 140mil a year ago, had a little stop at 160mil and were 200mil right before the patch. I'd know becaucse I build 6 a day.
Ubiquitous Newt The F-Bombers 4	Posted - 2012.08.23 23:47:00 - [98] - Quote I've got a Hulk, and a Mack, and I'm not thrilled with either. The Hulk requires more micromanagement, and the Mack has lousy comparative yield. Eventually I expect to settle on the Mack so that I can do work at the same time; as boring as mining is, the last thing I want to have to do is have to micromanage it too. Verdict? "Screw mining." It's been the worst part of Eve for years, and they just made it worse.
Zetaomega333 HIFI INDUSTRIAL ROL.Citizens 12	Posted - 2012.08.24 03:15:00 - [99] - Quote moronv wrote: Barbara Nichole wrote: moronv wrote: Well it looks like my playing days have just been revived, The Hulk has finally been nerfed. Max Ore cargo 8,500 m3 cant expand it any bigger so now i switch to macks with a fantastic 35k m3 ore hold thankyou ccp and less yield.. it's a trade off. No not less yield more yield much more yield, reason is i kine to a pos so my hulks had cargo expanders etc... My macks with there 35k m3 ore holds allow me to fit 3 mining laser upgrades so much more yield infact i am mining 25-30 mill more per hour with 2 macks boosted by a fully maxed out orca stationed in pos. Wrong, go do some math before touting unfounded stupid opnions like that. Maxed out hulk and mack with maxed out boosts sitll puts the hulk 19.5% ahead yeild wise than the mack. Jetcan mine its faster and more profitable than docking up every time you fill up like a pubbie scrub. Dont like getting canflipped? Move to nullsec no canflippers out there.
Zetaomega333 HIFI INDUSTRIAL ROL.Citizens 12	Posted - 2012.08.24 03:17:00 - [100] - Quote Quote: If you were solo mining in a Hulk without a dedicated hauler or an Orca nearby, you were wasting your Hulk's yield on trips back to station. ( Im sorry but what? I dont know how empire miners survive if when they solo mine they dock up everytime thier cargohold is full. But if you do that, there is the shining reason people look at miners as retards. jetcan mine for the love of god, its faster, easyer come back every hour 45 min and scoop and gg. I spent 4 months in empire mining and not one canflipper. And if you do get canflipped go join a nullsec mining corp and stop being ******** in the empire belts.
Ooda Treasures Collectors Solar Citizens 20	Posted - 2012.08.24 16:53:00 - [101] - Quote Funny how ppl still argue about the hulk beeing good, while everyone and their moms are using macks because of better Effort vs Reward ratio. Hulk got nerfed, yes - EHP means nothing, sustained tank is everything, and that got a good hit.
ashley Eoner 46	Posted - 2012.08.26 18:59:00 - [102] - Quote Ooda wrote: Funny how ppl still argue about the hulk beeing good, while everyone and their moms are using macks because of better Effort vs Reward ratio. Hulk got nerfed, yes - EHP means nothing, sustained tank is everything, and that got a good hit. The problem is you're too clueless to realize that the vast majority of miners you see are solo miners. The mack is designed for solo mining so SUPRISE of course you see it everywhere. Meanwhile the hulk which is designed for fleet mining can be found in FLEETs with full orca/hauler or roqual support. The hulk still has far superior yield when full buffs are applied and the EHP of it is quite nice. Sustained tank means nothing in a fleet operation and the fact that you don't understand this shows your complete ignorance of true fleet mining. Just for the record one dude running four accounts in high sec does not equal a fleet. I don't blame you for your ignorance because it's not like most alliances allow people to check out their mining OPs. So if your experiences were limited merely to highsec you'd have the mistake impression that everyone is a solo miner.
Ooda Treasures Collectors Solar Citizens 20	Posted - 2012.08.26 22:25:00 - [103] - Quote ashley Eoner wrote: Ooda wrote: Funny how ppl still argue about the hulk beeing good, while everyone and their moms are using macks because of better Effort vs Reward ratio. Hulk got nerfed, yes - EHP means nothing, sustained tank is everything, and that got a good hit. The problem is you're too clueless to realize that the vast majority of miners you see are solo miners. The mack is designed for solo mining so SUPRISE of course you see it everywhere. Meanwhile the hulk which is designed for fleet mining can be found in FLEETs with full orca/hauler or roqual support. Well, the price-spike on macks should show that you are just wrong. ;) Macks are awesome, and I run 6 of them - fuk da hulk, no need that stupid crapton of clicks for 2 mil more per hour and miner on Ice. Quote:* The hulk still has far superior yield when full buffs are applied and the EHP of it is quite nice. Sustained tank means nothing in a fleet operation and the fact that you don't understand this shows your complete ignorance of true fleet mining. thats a good one - no fleet miner would ever fit for tank on a hulk. The reason for this is simple => you can't save a hulk from beeing alpha'ed anyway. Again, EHP means nothing, because you are docked/on savespot if someone enters your system anyway. For tanking rats - sustained tank is everything. Yes, it has the superior yield, but it is so much not worth the hassle ;) Quote: Just for the record one dude running four accounts in high sec does not equal a fleet. I don't blame you for your ignorance because it's not like most alliances allow people to check out their mining OPs. So if your experiences were limited merely to highsec you'd have the mistake impression that everyone is a solo miner. Actually, I'm sitting in 0.0 harvesting DG. But yeah, I have obviously no clue about beeing boosted by a rorq, since that and the fact that I need to use some shield-bots for tanking is the only difference between mining in 0.0 and HS.
Sigras Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N 184	Posted - 2012.08.26 23:00:00 - [104] - Quote Ooda wrote: ashley Eoner wrote: Ooda wrote: Funny how ppl still argue about the hulk beeing good, while everyone and their moms are using macks because of better Effort vs Reward ratio. Hulk got nerfed, yes - EHP means nothing, sustained tank is everything, and that got a good hit. The problem is you're too clueless to realize that the vast majority of miners you see are solo miners. The mack is designed for solo mining so SUPRISE of course you see it everywhere. Meanwhile the hulk which is designed for fleet mining can be found in FLEETs with full orca/hauler or roqual support. Well, the price-spike on macks should show that you are just wrong. ;) Macks are awesome, and I run 6 of them - fuk da hulk, no need that stupid crapton of clicks for 2 mil more per hour and miner on Ice. wow, people who know nothing should learn to keep their mouths shut. first of all, the price spike in the mackinaw is because they went from totally worthless to actually good for solo miners, and lazy people who dont want to do some extra work for some extra profit (most people) Secondly, the hulk makes 16% more per hour than the mack all other things being equal, which means if the hulk would only make you 2 million more per hour that means your mackinaw only makes you 12.5 million an hour . . . lol youre doing something terribly wrong because even mining veldspar in a .7 should make you twice that Ooda wrote:* ashley Eoner wrote: Just for the record one dude running four accounts in high sec does not equal a fleet. I don't blame you for your ignorance because it's not like most alliances allow people to check out their mining OPs. So if your experiences were limited merely to highsec you'd have the mistake impression that everyone is a solo miner. Actually, I'm sitting in 0.0 harvesting DG. But yeah, I have obviously no clue about beeing boosted by a rorq, since that and the fact that I need to use some shield-bots for tanking is the only difference between mining in 0.0 and HS. wait wait . . . youre mining dark glitter in 0.0 and youre complaining about the click fest? you realize that even with a perfect rorqual, perfect skills and maxed out ice yield fittings, youre looking at one click and drag action every 4 minutes right? If you cant be asked to make one click every 4 minutes, i feel sorry for you if you ever run missions or go ratting.
ashley Eoner 46	Posted - 2012.08.26 23:38:00 - [105] - Quote Quote: Well, the price-spike on macks should show that you are just wrong. ;) Macks are awesome, and I run 6 of them - fuk da hulk, no need that stupid crapton of clicks for 2 mil more per hour and miner on Ice. No it just shows that a lot of people in highsec are solo miners and didn't have a mack because they didn't need/want one due to it old limitations. As of right now mack prices are only a little higher then the price of a hulk. Quote:* thats a good one - no fleet miner would ever fit for tank on a hulk. The reason for this is simple => you can't save a hulk from beeing alpha'ed anyway. Again, EHP means nothing, because you are docked/on savespot if someone enters your system anyway. For tanking rats - sustained tank is everything. Yes, it has the superior yield, but it is so much not worth the hassle ;) First off I made no such statement about tanking a hulk. Second off you must be unfamiliar with leadership skills and the shield harmonizer link that people tend to use in mining fleets. I suggest you check that stuff out asap :) Rats are dealt with by the fleet and any required repping is easily covered by fleet members. Quote: Actually, I'm sitting in 0.0 harvesting DG. But yeah, I have obviously no clue about beeing boosted by a rorq, since that and the fact that I need to use some shield-bots for tanking is the only difference between mining in 0.0 and HS. A surprising amount of null space is empty so that doesn't surprise me at all. All of what I typed is clearly standing and you haven't actually produced any counter proof at all..
Ooda Treasures Collectors Solar Citizens 20	Posted - 2012.08.27 10:19:00 - [106] - Quote ashley Eoner wrote: Quote: Well, the price-spike on macks should show that you are just wrong. ;) Macks are awesome, and I run 6 of them - fuk da hulk, no need that stupid crapton of clicks for 2 mil more per hour and miner on Ice. No it just shows that a lot of people in highsec are solo miners and didn't have a mack because they didn't need/want one due to it old limitations. As of right now mack prices are only a little higher then the price of a hulk. Actually, it shows that a lot of miners like the new mack. And even in 0-0 mining fleets, they have their use because it's so much less effort compared to the hulk, for only a fraction less ISK/hour. You said it yourself - the tendency to make mistakes while mining with hulks is the one big + for the mack. Especially at 106 cycle-time. Quote:* thats a good one - no fleet miner would ever fit for tank on a hulk. The reason for this is simple => you can't save a hulk from beeing alpha'ed anyway. Again, EHP means nothing, because you are docked/on savespot if someone enters your system anyway. For tanking rats - sustained tank is everything. Yes, it has the superior yield, but it is so much not worth the hassle ;) First off I made no such statement about tanking a hulk. Second off you must be unfamiliar with leadership skills and the shield harmonizer link that people tend to use in mining fleets. I suggest you check that stuff out asap :) Rats are dealt with by the fleet and any required repping is easily covered by fleet members. Yep, rats and repping is covered easily by your fleet, in form of maintenance bots or combat-drones. If you need a dedicated combat-pilot or a dedicated shield-rep pilot to handle them - you are doing it wrong. The point here is, that EHP means nothing for that. It's just sustained tank - and that was nerfed with the nerf to hulks resists. It's not a game-breaking nerf tbh, but it is a nerf just because the boosted EHP is useless while the bonus to sustained tank was atleast somehow useful. Quote: Actually, I'm sitting in 0.0 harvesting DG. But yeah, I have obviously no clue about beeing boosted by a rorq, since that and the fact that I need to use some shield-bots for tanking is the only difference between mining in 0.0 and HS. A surprising amount of null space is empty so that doesn't surprise me at all. All of what I typed is clearly standing and you haven't actually produced any counter proof at all..[/quote] You still fail to see that the hulk got nerfed, and still you make such statements.. crazy world.
Corvus Borealis State War Academy Caldari State 20	Posted - 2012.08.27 12:02:00 - [107] - Quote moronv wrote: Well it looks like my playing days have just been revived, The Hulk has finally been nerfed. Max Ore cargo 8,500 m3 cant expand it any bigger so now i switch to macks with a fantastic 35k m3 ore hold thankyou ccp Are you seriously idiot? Mining yield is all that matters. There is Iteron mark V, it can yield 38,000m3 that's even better than Mackinaw, go mine in one of them and perhaps then you realise how idiot you are.
Corvus Borealis State War Academy Caldari State 20	Posted - 2012.08.27 12:04:00 - [108] - Quote Ooda wrote: Actually, it shows that a lot of miners like the new mack. And even in 0-0 mining fleets, they have their use because it's so much less effort compared to the hulk, for only a fraction less ISK/hour. Do you even know what fraction means?
ashley Eoner 46	Posted - 2012.08.27 17:13:00 - [109] - Quote Corvus Borealis wrote: Ooda wrote: Actually, it shows that a lot of miners like the new mack. And even in 0-0 mining fleets, they have their use because it's so much less effort compared to the hulk, for only a fraction less ISK/hour. Do you even know what fraction means? THis fellow doesn't know what a lot of things mean apparently.. We're probably wasting our breath because either he's incapable of realizing how wrong he is or he's trying to fake being dumb in order to advocate for a buff to Hulks.
Ditra Vorthran State War Academy Caldari State 97	Posted - 2012.08.27 19:44:00 - [110] - Quote As an aside from all this, has anyone played with the idea of putting a Medium Ancillary Shield Booster on their Hulk? I managed to create a fit that mines for 1779 m3/minute (with mining drones), EHP of around 20k+ EHP, and with the MASB. I've never had the chance to test it though. I figured since the MASB was used so much in the short intense fights of the Alliance Tournament, that it work well in a short intense gank attempt until CONCORD showed up. As a comparison, my yeild fit (still including the MASB, but with mining laser upgrades in the lows) mined at 2016 m3/min for a total difference of 16920 m3/hour and an EHP of 15k+. So I get a bunch more EHP with the loss of less than one jet can an hour of ore. Toss in the MASB for in combat shield boosting and it looks pretty good. On paper at least. "Miners mine so I don't have to." ~Metal Icarus
Frostys Virpio Profit's Prophets Strategic Alliance 5	Posted - 2012.08.28 06:03:00 - [111] - Quote Corvus Borealis wrote: moronv wrote: Well it looks like my playing days have just been revived, The Hulk has finally been nerfed. Max Ore cargo 8,500 m3 cant expand it any bigger so now i switch to macks with a fantastic 35k m3 ore hold thankyou ccp Are you seriously idiot? Mining yield is all that matters. There is Iteron mark V, it can yield 38,000m3 that's even better than Mackinaw, go mine in one of them and perhaps then you realise how idiot you are. It can go a bit over 41k m3 but it's still usually a loss because you have to : 1- mine to cans 2- warp back to sattion 3- re-ship to iteron 4- warp to belt 5- pick up cans 6- warp abck to station 7- dump 7- re-ship to hulk 8- warp back to belt A mack gets : 1- mine 2- warp to station 3- dump 4- warp to belt The last math I saw put the requirement around 3 hulk + orca to outmine the same number of ships in macks because of the time saved by hauling yourself instead of having to warp back and forth.
ashley Eoner 46	Posted - 2012.08.28 18:53:00 - [112] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Corvus Borealis wrote: moronv wrote: Well it looks like my playing days have just been revived, The Hulk has finally been nerfed. Max Ore cargo 8,500 m3 cant expand it any bigger so now i switch to macks with a fantastic 35k m3 ore hold thankyou ccp Are you seriously idiot? Mining yield is all that matters. There is Iteron mark V, it can yield 38,000m3 that's even better than Mackinaw, go mine in one of them and perhaps then you realise how idiot you are. It can go a bit over 41k m3 but it's still usually a loss because you have to : 1- mine to cans 2- warp back to sattion 3- re-ship to iteron 4- warp to belt 5- pick up cans 6- warp abck to station 7- dump 7- re-ship to hulk 8- warp back to belt A mack gets : 1- mine 2- warp to station 3- dump 4- warp to belt The last math I saw put the requirement around 3 hulk + orca to outmine the same number of ships in macks because of the time saved by hauling yourself instead of having to warp back and forth. Indeed you are correct as the Hulk is designed to be the fleet mining ship and not a solo runner..
celebro Perpetuum Industries 0	Posted - 2012.08.28 21:15:00 - [113] - Quote Overall these mining barge changes seems good. I used to mine with hulk+orca alt. Now if 2 mackinaws is more effective my orca alt sp have just been wasted and I would need to train my alt for a mackinaw. That's really my only issue.
Frostys Virpio Profit's Prophets Strategic Alliance 5	Posted - 2012.08.28 23:12:00 - [114] - Quote celebro wrote: Overall these mining barge changes seems good. I used to mine with hulk+orca alt. Now if 2 mackinaws is more effective my orca alt sp have just been wasted and I would need to train my alt for a mackinaw. That's really my only issue. Or you could get the multiplayer back in MMO and get a corp to make mining ops where your hulk's added yield would shine and your orca boost would be worth even more.
ashley Eoner 46	Posted - 2012.08.29 01:42:00 - [115] - Quote celebro wrote: Overall these mining barge changes seems good. I used to mine with hulk+orca alt. Now if 2 mackinaws is more effective my orca alt sp have just been wasted and I would need to train my alt for a mackinaw. That's really my only issue. Since Frostys already made one point i'd like to chime in with one more thing. The mining boost skills you got on the orca pilot will still help your overall yeild so there isn't much in the way of waste.
celebro Perpetuum Industries 0	Posted - 2012.08.29 08:15:00 - [116] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: celebro wrote: Overall these mining barge changes seems good. I used to mine with hulk+orca alt. Now if 2 mackinaws is more effective my orca alt sp have just been wasted and I would need to train my alt for a mackinaw. That's really my only issue. Or you could get the multiplayer back in MMO and get a corp to make mining ops where your hulk's added yield would shine and your orca boost would be worth even more. I like to mine solo, you are suggesting a play style I don't like, and which I have already tried out.. No need to state the obvious that this is a multiplayer game,btw its also a sandbox and I still market trade which is a multiplayer activity.
celebro Perpetuum Industries 0	Posted - 2012.08.29 08:23:00 - [117] - Quote ashley Eoner wrote: celebro wrote: Overall these mining barge changes seems good. I used to mine with hulk+orca alt. Now if 2 mackinaws is more effective my orca alt sp have just been wasted and I would need to train my alt for a mackinaw. That's really my only issue. Since Frostys already made one point i'd like to chime in with one more thing. The mining boost skills you got on the orca pilot will still help your overall yeild so there isn't much in the way of waste. If I stick to my preferred hulk+orca and take a hit on the yield, compared to 2x macks, then these last changes are a nerf for me personally. I know that overall its not a nerf for everyone . I would suggest since the hulk/covetor is specialised for fleet mining it should get a slightly higher mining boost for orca than the other mining ship classes.
Frostys Virpio Profit's Prophets Strategic Alliance 5	Posted - 2012.08.29 14:34:00 - [118] - Quote celebro wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: celebro wrote: Overall these mining barge changes seems good. I used to mine with hulk+orca alt. Now if 2 mackinaws is more effective my orca alt sp have just been wasted and I would need to train my alt for a mackinaw. That's really my only issue. Or you could get the multiplayer back in MMO and get a corp to make mining ops where your hulk's added yield would shine and your orca boost would be worth even more. I like to mine solo, you are suggesting a play style I don't like, and which I have already tried out.. No need to state the obvious that this is a multiplayer game,btw its also a sandbox and I still market trade which is a multiplayer activity. It's nto a nerf to you. All it is is a buff to other people's ship. Your hulk still mine just as much if not more than it did before patch. You enver got nerfed if you were using orca + hulk. It's just not the best solution but you didn't loose any yield. The hulk is just not the best solution for you. You only see it as a nerf because you are used to the hulk being the be all end all solution to mining. It is not anymore. There are better solution depending on how you want to mine.
celebro Perpetuum Industries 0	Posted - 2012.08.29 14:49:00 - [119] - Quote I mostly care about is the yield/hour not complaining about the cargo hold of the hulk or anything else, but if the better option for 2 accounts is 2x macks (to max your yield). I'll have to drop my hulk+orca setup, then in my view it's a hulk nerf. I understand that on it's own ( with no alts) the hulk is worse than the other options but at least with orca support on its own it should be better.
Frostys Virpio Profit's Prophets Strategic Alliance 5	Posted - 2012.08.29 17:07:00 - [120] - Quote celebro wrote: I mostly care about is the yield/hour not complaining about the cargo hold of the hulk or anything else, but if the better option for 2 accounts is 2x macks (to max your yield). I'll have to drop my hulk+orca setup, then in my view it's a hulk nerf. I understand that on it's own ( with no alts) the hulk is worse than the other options but at least with orca support on its own it should be better. Specialised fleet mining ship, yet 2 accounts makes a fleet afaik. It's not a nerf because the hulk didn't lose any yield. A new better option appeared but you could ahve the ewxact same yield as before without switching anything. That means you didn't get any nerf at all since you can do exactly the same for the exact same results.
celebro Perpetuum Industries 0	Posted - 2012.08.29 18:15:00 - [121] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: celebro wrote: I mostly care about is the yield/hour not complaining about the cargo hold of the hulk or anything else, but if the better option for 2 accounts is 2x macks (to max your yield). I'll have to drop my hulk+orca setup, then in my view it's a hulk nerf. I understand that on it's own ( with no alts) the hulk is worse than the other options but at least with orca support on its own it should be better. Specialised fleet mining ship, yet 2 accounts makes a fleet afaik. It's not a nerf because the hulk didn't lose any yield. A new better option appeared but you could ahve the ewxact same yield as before without switching anything. That means you didn't get any nerf at all since you can do exactly the same for the exact same results. Technically your are right its not a nerf, more of a 'stealth nerf' . You are only as rich as the poorest man. If you buff the other mining ships , specially the T1's then you will realise there is no big advantage gap anymore, also take note it's a free market, prices will go way down as everyone and their mother can get quite decent yields compared to the hulk.
Idris Helion University of Caille Gallente Federation 58	Posted - 2012.08.29 18:55:00 - [122] - Quote celebro wrote: Technically your are right its not a nerf, more of a 'stealth nerf' . You are only as rich as the poorest man. If you buff the other mining ships , specially the T1's then you will realise there is no big advantage gap anymore, also take note it's a free market, prices will go way down as everyone and their mother can get quite decent yields compared to the hulk. I dunno, barge changes have been in for quite awhile now and both trit and pye are still right up there, price-wise. Both minerals have fallen back a bit from their highs, but not by all that much. If the new barges were flooding the market with cheap minerals, I think we'd have seen more profound effects by now.
Velicitia Open Designs 1127	Posted - 2012.08.29 19:09:00 - [123] - Quote Idris Helion wrote: celebro wrote: Technically your are right its not a nerf, more of a 'stealth nerf' . You are only as rich as the poorest man. If you buff the other mining ships , specially the T1's then you will realise there is no big advantage gap anymore, also take note it's a free market, prices will go way down as everyone and their mother can get quite decent yields compared to the hulk. I dunno, barge changes have been in for quite awhile now and both trit and pye are still right up there, price-wise. Both minerals have fallen back a bit from their highs, but not by all that much. If the new barges were flooding the market with cheap minerals, I think we'd have seen more profound effects by now. they're not flooding the market yet. Remember, we're still in the tail end of the summer slump as far as players go. we'll probably see prices start falling in September/October...
Frostys Virpio Profit's Prophets Strategic Alliance 7	Posted - 2012.08.29 19:09:00 - [124] - Quote celebro wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: celebro wrote: I mostly care about is the yield/hour not complaining about the cargo hold of the hulk or anything else, but if the better option for 2 accounts is 2x macks (to max your yield). I'll have to drop my hulk+orca setup, then in my view it's a hulk nerf. I understand that on it's own ( with no alts) the hulk is worse than the other options but at least with orca support on its own it should be better. Specialised fleet mining ship, yet 2 accounts makes a fleet afaik. It's not a nerf because the hulk didn't lose any yield. A new better option appeared but you could ahve the ewxact same yield as before without switching anything. That means you didn't get any nerf at all since you can do exactly the same for the exact same results. Technically your are right its not a nerf, more of a 'stealth nerf' . You are only as rich as the poorest man. If you buff the other mining ships , specially the T1's then you will realise there is no big advantage gap anymore, also take note it's a free market, prices will go way down as everyone and their mother can get quite decent yields compared to the hulk. It's still not a nerf to your yields. The value of trit and such were modified because the supply is higher than it was before but everybody "suffer" from this as all miner have some trit to sell. Your hulk didn't get nerfed unless you didn;t use it the right way. The only way someone can say his hulk was nerfet is if he was an idiot shitfitting his hulk for cargo space thus creating a paper hulk. He lost the possibility to make his paper hulk but this role is now covered by a ship much better at it, the mack. For anyone who was using the hulk with either cans or hauler support, there were no nerf at all. It is no longer the only good ship to mine and some solution it will get beaten by another ship but that is a GOOD thing. Buy the right ship to do the job you want and thats all. If you keep thinking you got somehow nerfed, it's because you are looking for problems where there are none. EDIT : Velicitia wrote: they're not flooding the market yet. Remember, we're still in the tail end of the summer slump as far as players go. we'll probably see prices start falling in September/October... The miners coming back at the end of summer will at least be partially countered by the pvpers coming back at the end of summer blowing up more ships thus requiring more replacement.
Crewsus Zork Intergalactic Combined Technologies 1	Posted - 2012.09.29 07:13:00 - [125] - Quote I am not a hard core gamer. I have two accounts, but I do not spend hours every week to play. Been very happy with the game, the endless exploring and the feeling that I can never master all aspects of the game. WONDERFUL and beats all other MMOs any day! Until today, when I login with my second account and realise that the rigs I bought for my Hulk (approximately 200.000.000 ISK) are useless. I could easily have overlooked this if I could remove the rigs and get my hard earned ISK back. But sadly this is not the case and in my opinion someone stole 200.000.000 ISK from me. Not another player, that would be part of the game, but CCP who possibly could point to some section in the EULA to defend this. You should really think things through and consider the consequences for those affected by the changes you make. I bought those rigs to increase cargo hold. Yes, those modules still do the same job, but they are working with different figures. 2-300 m3 is not worth 200 MISK. I do understand your aim to make mining more of an art, but I think it was executed with a lack of respect. It may seem ridiculous to take something virtual this serious. But in the end it is time and money we are talking about, and that is important and should be respected. I will give this some serious thought before I decide wether to quit this game or forgive and forget. Hopefully it is enough just to write some of the heat off and send this to you so you at least can be aware how your decision affected me.
Celgar Thurn Department 10 56	Posted - 2012.09.29 14:50:00 - [126] - Quote Crewsus Zork wrote: I am not a hard core gamer. I have two accounts, but I do not spend hours every week to play. Been very happy with the game, the endless exploring and the feeling that I can never master all aspects of the game. WONDERFUL and beats all other MMOs any day! Until today, when I login with my second account and realise that the rigs I bought for my Hulk (approximately 200.000.000 ISK) are useless. I could easily have overlooked this if I could remove the rigs and get my hard earned ISK back. But sadly this is not the case and in my opinion someone stole 200.000.000 ISK from me. Not another player, that would be part of the game, but CCP who possibly could point to some section in the EULA to defend this. You should really think things through and consider the consequences for those affected by the changes you make. I bought those rigs to increase cargo hold. Yes, those modules still do the same job, but they are working with different figures. 2-300 m3 is not worth 200 MISK. I do understand your aim to make mining more of an art, but I think it was executed with a lack of respect. It may seem ridiculous to take something virtual this serious. But in the end it is time and money we are talking about, and that is important and should be respected. I will give this some serious thought before I decide wether to quit this game or forgive and forget. Hopefully it is enough just to write some of the heat off and send this to you so you at least can be aware how your decision affected me. 200 million ISK is small change even to me and I'm just a high sec peasant. On the issue of increasing cargo/ore space on a Hulk or any other mining vessel even before the ship balancing changes you should not have been using cargo rigs/expanders. You should be fitting something to improve your tank in those rig slots. A maximum of one T2 MLU and a DC II in the low slots with as much tanking modules as you can fit in the mids. Mine with a view to safety but you need the tank to cover for when you mess up. Which if you are careful will not happen too often.
Frostys Virpio Caldari Provisions Caldari State 24	Posted - 2012.09.29 17:00:00 - [127] - Quote Crewsus Zork wrote: I am not a hard core gamer. I have two accounts, but I do not spend hours every week to play. Been very happy with the game, the endless exploring and the feeling that I can never master all aspects of the game. WONDERFUL and beats all other MMOs any day! Until today, when I login with my second account and realise that the rigs I bought for my Hulk (approximately 200.000.000 ISK) are useless. I could easily have overlooked this if I could remove the rigs and get my hard earned ISK back. But sadly this is not the case and in my opinion someone stole 200.000.000 ISK from me. Not another player, that would be part of the game, but CCP who possibly could point to some section in the EULA to defend this. You should really think things through and consider the consequences for those affected by the changes you make. I bought those rigs to increase cargo hold. Yes, those modules still do the same job, but they are working with different figures. 2-300 m3 is not worth 200 MISK. I do understand your aim to make mining more of an art, but I think it was executed with a lack of respect. It may seem ridiculous to take something virtual this serious. But in the end it is time and money we are talking about, and that is important and should be respected. I will give this some serious thought before I decide wether to quit this game or forgive and forget. Hopefully it is enough just to write some of the heat off and send this to you so you at least can be aware how your decision affected me. Mail em your stuff and quit if you still can't understand how the hulk was not nerfed and still don't understand stuff always cahnge in MOs.
Hans Momaki State War Academy Caldari State 21	Posted - 2012.09.30 22:25:00 - [128] - Quote Actually, the Hulk got nerfed. It lost some resists. Yes, it got some EHP for it, but that's not needed for mining anyway. Resists came much more handy :) I never needed the EHP, those resists however... I "used" them everytime I mined in Hulks. ;)
Styth spiting Gunzerkers 66	Posted - 2012.10.01 03:42:00 - [129] - Quote There was no nerf. If you fitted your hulk for max yield before the "nerf" you were actually making less then then you are now. If you fitted for max yield you are still making more now then you were before. A mackinaw now makes as much as a hulk did fitted for max yield. So instead of being an idiot and fitting a hulk for max cargohold you can now use a mackinaw with more m3 space, cheaper cost to yield as much as your hulk as a max cargohold did in the past. So by "nerf" I'm guessing you mean cheaper ship with more cargohold that yields as much as you did in the past...
Crewsus Zork Intergalactic Combined Technologies 1	Posted - 2012.10.01 07:17:00 - [130] - Quote Wow...insightful comments. Thanks! I now understand that when you buy rigs you should always bear in mind that CCP might make a change that renders your purchase useless. I now understand that I was an idiot to fit for max cargo hold for solo mining and not realising that CCP would make changes this way in the future. I see it now, reason and logic in action. I also understand that 200 million ISK is not much to anyone, the hours it would take me to make them is nothing, hence I understand that EVE is not for casual gamers.
Hans Momaki State War Academy Caldari State 21	Posted - 2012.10.01 10:12:00 - [131] - Quote Crewsus Zork wrote: Wow...insightful comments. Thanks! I now understand that when you buy rigs you should always bear in mind that CCP might make a change that renders your purchase useless. I now understand that I was an idiot to fit for max cargo hold for solo mining and not realising that CCP would make changes this way in the future. I see it now, reason and logic in action. I also understand that 200 million ISK is not much to anyone, the hours it would take me to make them is nothing, hence I understand that EVE is not for casual gamers. Oh come on. Don't be a whiny carebear ffs. You lost 200 mil because CCP changed something - get over it, that happens.
Crewsus Zork Intergalactic Combined Technologies 1	Posted - 2012.10.01 10:54:00 - [132] - Quote Hans Momaki wrote: Crewsus Zork wrote: Wow...insightful comments. Thanks! I now understand that when you buy rigs you should always bear in mind that CCP might make a change that renders your purchase useless. I now understand that I was an idiot to fit for max cargo hold for solo mining and not realising that CCP would make changes this way in the future. I see it now, reason and logic in action. I also understand that 200 million ISK is not much to anyone, the hours it would take me to make them is nothing, hence I understand that EVE is not for casual gamers. Oh come on. Don't be a whiny carebear ffs. You lost 200 mil because CCP changed something - get over it, that happens. Won't be, cancelled my second account used for mining and will explore something else.
Frostys Virpio Caldari Provisions Caldari State 28	Posted - 2012.10.01 14:29:00 - [133] - Quote Crewsus Zork wrote: Hans Momaki wrote: Crewsus Zork wrote: Wow...insightful comments. Thanks! I now understand that when you buy rigs you should always bear in mind that CCP might make a change that renders your purchase useless. I now understand that I was an idiot to fit for max cargo hold for solo mining and not realising that CCP would make changes this way in the future. I see it now, reason and logic in action. I also understand that 200 million ISK is not much to anyone, the hours it would take me to make them is nothing, hence I understand that EVE is not for casual gamers. Oh come on. Don't be a whiny carebear ffs. You lost 200 mil because CCP changed something - get over it, that happens. Won't be, cancelled my second account used for mining and will explore something else. You should of bought a mack and AFK mined it... I will still accept contract of your stuff since you are quitting btw.
aoe dps Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.10.01 15:02:00 - [134] - Quote Crewsus Zork wrote: Hans Momaki wrote: Crewsus Zork wrote: Wow...insightful comments. Thanks! I now understand that when you buy rigs you should always bear in mind that CCP might make a change that renders your purchase useless. I now understand that I was an idiot to fit for max cargo hold for solo mining and not realising that CCP would make changes this way in the future. I see it now, reason and logic in action. I also understand that 200 million ISK is not much to anyone, the hours it would take me to make them is nothing, hence I understand that EVE is not for casual gamers. Oh come on. Don't be a whiny carebear ffs. You lost 200 mil because CCP changed something - get over it, that happens. Won't be, cancelled my second account used for mining and will explore something else. Good riddance. Crybaby. Try reading a dev blog, the "show info > attributes" section, or pay minor attention and keep up with the times. The only people sad to see you go are tear-farmers, because lets face it, you're a Whale i am a posting alt. "He doesn't believe in taking into consideration any facts that might detract from his argument"
Crewsus Zork Intergalactic Combined Technologies 1	Posted - 2012.10.01 16:57:00 - [135] - Quote Didn't say I was quitting the game, only cancelled my second account. Crybaby? Well, perhaps now when I have settled down I can realise I was a bit of a drama queen. I am just surprised that stats on an item can be changed just like that, never heard of it. I was also surprised that everyone was fine with this and beat down on what I thought, at the time, was a fair complaint. It is not like I whine about station walking and then when I finally get it I whine about what is wrong with it... But the mining days are over and I have put this in the "lessons learned"-archive.

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