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Elder Lemon	Posted - 2010.11.20 16:17:00 - [1] I recently saw a picture of the rokh next to the golden gate bridge and saw how truely massive it is. The building next to it could have been a 425mm railgun. So if the rokh were that big the 425mm guns would be slightly larger than half the size of that building and yet only shoot a 16.7 inch round? This is why railguns suck. Just because they move at hypersonic speeds doesnt mean they cant contain an explosive. For reference WWII japanese battleships had 18 inch guns hurling High Explosive shells over 22 miles (35km) IN ATMOSPHERE with gravity being a factor and could sometimes hit moving targets with the crap mechanization and turret movements of the day. So our increadibly furtureistic railguns cant toss a 16 inch shell much further than 45km (Rokh: range bonus battleship IV, antimatter) with none of the air-rated friction of atmosphere and zero gravity and still cant hit a moving battleship any closer than 15km? With the ammount of electricity it takes to get something going at hypersonic speed i would expect a little magnetism to be on the full metal shells dealing some EM damage t whatever poor shield system or armor plating (no hull damage of course, rails dont get that kind of love) has to flatten the shell. Reference: If i had to guess (by the size of the portreyed barrel) the barrel of a railgun could be related to the diameter of an oil drum with a pencil hole in it for an exit. And shooting this at another battleship (slightly larger than human-size projectiles could be related to shooting a spitwad at a humvee (power and size proportioned))
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.11.20 16:44:00 - [2] Railgun projectiles deliver damage purely by kinetic energy, no explosives used. Simply put, once it hits with enough velocity, solid mass yields more damage than equal amount of explosives.
Jacob Holland Gallente Weyland-Vulcan Industries	Posted - 2010.11.20 16:49:00 - [3] For a start you're confusing hyper-sonic speeds with the near luminal speeds of railgun projectiles... we aren't talking about Mach 18 here, we're talking about substantial fractions of C. As to the explosive load, what exactly do you think that the Antimatter in that charge is? C is approximately 3x10^8m/s and the massloss from a matter/antimatter reaction is double the mass of antimatter employed (because the antimatter will annihilate an equal quantity of matter on contact). With 25 grams of Antimatter then you're looking at a yield of approximately 4.5x10^15 joules. (E=mC^2 = 0.05 x 300,000,000^2 = 4.5x10^15) 1 megatonne of TNT yields about 4.2x10^15 joules according to the first result on Google so that's about 21 grams of antimatter per megatonne... Now imagine what would happen if you accelerated your charge to a near luminal velocity too quickly, quickly enough that the antimatter core broke the magnetic containment field which holds it away from the interior of the charge while it was still inside the linear accelerator (your 425mm railgun)... As to the range issue your Rokh is capable of firing shells (charges) to ranges well in excess of the 250km lock cap, by my reckoning around 350km (using high technology containment systems (aka Spike L)). When you're dealing with a 350km operational range the 15km you're referring to is virtually within range to club to death with the barrel. -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
De BuG2 Gallente Rise on Chaos	Posted - 2010.11.20 17:22:00 - [4] Originally by: Jacob Holland maths jargon... Say whaaaat? -------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.11.20 17:33:00 - [5] EVE is realistic since when? That's why your post is stupid. Also: Quote: Just because they move at hypersonic speeds doesnt mean they cant contain an explosive. You do know what antimatter is, don't you? _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
KYLE DF	Posted - 2010.11.20 18:11:00 - [6] I think your over complicating a video game.
Exploited Engineer	Posted - 2010.11.20 18:28:00 - [7] Edited by: Exploited Engineer on 20/11/2010 18:28:01 Originally by: Elder Lemon I recently saw a picture of the rokh next to the golden gate bridge and saw how truely massive it is. The building next to it could have been a 425mm railgun. So if the rokh were that big the 425mm guns would be slightly larger than half the size of that building and yet only shoot a 16.7 inch round? This is why railguns suck. Just because they move at hypersonic speeds doesnt mean they cant contain an explosive. What do you think anti-freakin!-matter does when it comes in contact with regular matter? And I still wonder how they prevent a 40 cm chunk of plutonium from going critical and kaboom.
Exploited Engineer	Posted - 2010.11.20 18:31:00 - [8] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington EVE is realistic since when? Eve isnt't just unrealistic, it takes every opportunity to poke the blunt knife of lack of realism into your eye. It's more bluntly unrealistic than Star Trek or even Star Wars, since not even basic numbers add up. How the heck do they store a projectile for a 1.6 meter gun in a volume of only 0.125 cubic meters?
Arbiter Reborn	Posted - 2010.11.20 18:38:00 - [9] Originally by: Exploited Engineer Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington EVE is realistic since when? Eve isnt't just unrealistic, it takes every opportunity to poke the blunt knife of lack of realism into your eye. It's more bluntly unrealistic than Star Trek or even Star Wars, since not even basic numbers add up. How the heck do they store a projectile for a 1.6 meter gun in a volume of only 0.125 cubic meters? tardis obviously
fkingfurious	Posted - 2010.11.20 18:41:00 - [10] Edited by: fkingfurious on 20/11/2010 18:42:09 Originally by: Exploited Engineer And I still wonder how they prevent a 40 cm chunk of plutonium from going critical and kaboom. It actually takes quite a lot of energy to force a fissile mass (Plutonium, Uranium 235 or whatever) into the density required to trigger a nuclear chain reaction. If there is no external force holding the mass together then the energy created as the chain reaction starts (neutrons emitted by the nuclei in the mass hitting other nuclei and causing them to emit neutrons and so forth) is sufficient to seperate the mass and cause the reaction to "Fizzle". In the case of an atom bomb it requires a perfectly spherical blast wave to "Implode" the mass and cause the big kaboom. Yay for high school physics.

Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2010.11.20 19:01:00 - [11] Exploited Engineer said "How the heck do they store a projectile for a 1.6 meter gun in a volume of only 0.125 cubic meters?" Eve has some sort of compression tech where the inside of objects is bigger than the outside kind of like the Tardis in Doctor Who. All cargo containers have this technology and you can fit more inside the container then the volume of the container. There is even a warning message if you try and put a cargo container inside a cargo container. ______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
Elder Lemon	Posted - 2010.11.21 00:50:00 - [12] for gods sake I GET THE POINT! antimatter plus matter = someone deviding by zero and it STILL doesnt do any godamn real damage! ITS JUST A NAME BY EVE's STANDPOINT! takes away half your range and gets you a staggering volly of 2000 with the rokh and 425s every 6 seconds over a distance of a whoping 45km. My point it that world war 2 had bigger guns than eves largest hybrid battleship weapon. Think about it, the round is 16.7 inches in diameter and most likely a meter in length and its hitting a target that is literaly 700x its size dealing nothing more than a spitwad would to a freight train. If the object being tossed must be ferris we coult at least say it would have a deacent charge to it after exiting the barrel and soaring through all that radiation from a nearby sun would give it some EM damage. The concept of a railgun is to take a solid object and toss it very very fast at some unfortunate target and watch the fireworks but if we were going by that rull density would be the factor screwing over the hybrid ammo damage charts leaving iron charges right above iridiuum and lead.
ShahFluffers Gallente Ice Fire Warriors	Posted - 2010.11.21 01:23:00 - [13] Originally by: Elder Lemon My point it that world war 2 had bigger guns than eves largest hybrid battleship weapon. Think about it, the round is 16.7 inches in diameter and most likely a meter in length and its hitting a target that is literaly 700x its size dealing nothing more than a spitwad would to a freight train. Bigger isn't always better? Here's an example: Quote: The United States military is funding railgun experiments. At the University of Texas at Austin Institute for Advanced Technology, military railguns capable of delivering tungsten armor piercing bullets with kinetic energies of nine megajoules have been developed.[12] 9 MJ is enough energy to deliver 2 kg of projectile at 3 km/sûat that velocity a rod of tungsten or another dense metal could easily penetrate a tank, and potentially pass through it. Buff hybrids. _______________________ "Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown
Asuka Smith Gallente StarHunt	Posted - 2010.11.21 01:37:00 - [14] The main problem with rails is that they blow, not that they are unrealistic.
Dorian Tormak	Posted - 2010.11.21 16:20:00 - [15] how do rails blow? I have found it extremely hard in my arty rifter/arty jag to be able to kill rail incursuses/rail comets and the like. please explain why they are worse than artillery other than cap usage.
Jacob Holland Gallente Weyland-Vulcan Industries	Posted - 2010.11.21 16:39:00 - [16] Edited by: Jacob Holland on 21/11/2010 16:40:25 Edited by: Jacob Holland on 21/11/2010 16:39:44 Originally by: Elder Lemon <snip> ITS JUST A NAME BY EVE's STANDPOINT! takes away half your range and gets you a staggering volly of 2000 with the rokh and 425s every 6 seconds over a distance of a whoping 45km. </snip> Then stop comparing them to real world artillery (hint, 1400mm howitzers are that way) and frame your complaint in terms of the game problems. Although a Rokh with 425s and a pair of tracking enhancers (as opposed to a dedicated snipe boat) will happily throw AM to around 150km, with a 70km optimal and a volley of 2500 or so, so your 45km is more to do with your skills than the weapon system itself... -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
risall Volatile Nature	Posted - 2010.11.21 18:06:00 - [17] Originally by: Jacob Holland For a start you're confusing hyper-sonic speeds with the near luminal speeds of railgun projectiles... we aren't talking about Mach 18 here, we're talking about substantial fractions of C. As to the explosive load, what exactly do you think that the Antimatter in that charge is? C is approximately 3x10^8m/s and the massloss from a matter/antimatter reaction is double the mass of antimatter employed (because the antimatter will annihilate an equal quantity of matter on contact). With 25 grams of Antimatter then you're looking at a yield of approximately 4.5x10^15 joules. (E=mC^2 = 0.05 x 300,000,000^2 = 4.5x10^15) 1 megatonne of TNT yields about 4.2x10^15 joules according to the first result on Google so that's about 21 grams of antimatter per megatonne... Now imagine what would happen if you accelerated your charge to a near luminal velocity too quickly, quickly enough that the antimatter core broke the magnetic containment field which holds it away from the interior of the charge while it was still inside the linear accelerator (your 425mm railgun)... As to the range issue your Rokh is capable of firing shells (charges) to ranges well in excess of the 250km lock cap, by my reckoning around 350km (using high technology containment systems (aka Spike L)). When you're dealing with a 350km operational range the 15km you're referring to is virtually within range to club to death with the barrel. Yes folks...... we have this weeks winner of the 'Geek Anorak'. Wear it with pride.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.11.21 18:39:00 - [18] A WIZARD DID IT. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.11.21 18:48:00 - [19] Originally by: Dorian Tormak how do rails blow? I have found it extremely hard in my arty rifter/arty jag to be able to kill rail incursuses/rail comets and the like. please explain why they are worse than artillery other than cap usage. Because their damage is an absolute joke. It's just lucky for them your artillery fits are an even bigger joke. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
Dorian Tormak	Posted - 2010.11.21 18:54:00 - [20] they get more dps than artillery jeeves.

Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.11.21 21:54:00 - [21] Originally by: Exploited Engineer Eve isnt't just unrealistic, it takes every opportunity to poke the blunt knife of lack of realism into your eye. This. Besides space being full of water, EVE also decided the first laws of thermodynamics and motion were for stupid noobs.
Exploited Engineer	Posted - 2010.11.21 22:12:00 - [22] Originally by: Seriously Bored This. Besides space being full of water Actually, I like to think of it as being full of dust. This fits better with some of the graphic effects, like being able to see the "beams" of the lights of stations, and of course the impressive luminous clouds in the background.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2010.11.21 22:33:00 - [23] If realism had any place in EvE, that Rokh would have 8 large guns, 12 medium guns, and 18 small guns. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
lil Ghork	Posted - 2010.11.21 23:20:00 - [24] Originally by: Anubis Xian If realism had any place in EvE, that Rokh would have 8 large guns, 12 medium guns, and 18 small guns. it would have cap problems firing those guns!
Luminos	Posted - 2010.11.21 23:59:00 - [25] Originally by: Jacob Holland With 25 grams of Antimatter then you're looking at a yield of approximately 4.5x10^15 joules. (E=mC^2 = 0.05 x 300,000,000^2 = 4.5x10^15) 1 megatonne of TNT yields about 4.2x10^15 joules according to the first result on Google so that's about 21 grams of antimatter per megatonne. Why bother? Kinetic energy of the shell should be around 5x10^15 even at 1% of C.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2010.11.22 00:12:00 - [26] Originally by: lil Ghork Originally by: Anubis Xian If realism had any place in EvE, that Rokh would have 8 large guns, 12 medium guns, and 18 small guns. it would have cap problems firing those guns! Maybe, imagine a laser ship in the same position. Eve went with the rock, paper, scissors approach. But it wasn't strictly necessary, it was just easiest. I'd trade in all of my drone bays to let my gunnery skills run smaller weapons on my large ships. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Captain Nares	Posted - 2010.11.22 05:42:00 - [27] Yes, hybrids need a buff. I saw 9000 such topics. Go on creating them not to let CCP forget about this.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2010.11.22 12:29:00 - [28] Originally by: Malcanis A WIZARD DID IT. and that my friends is why spaceships are so expensive, need a wizard at every single turret hard point to make the guns work and just think that the antimatter eats away at the shell, that's why it only goes so far (just don't ask me about any of the other more normal ammos)
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2010.11.22 13:02:00 - [29] Quote: they get more dps than artillery jeeves. All ships damage was taken at all 5 skills with 3x damage mods and t2 range ammo: Tempest: 370dps (6.1k alpha) Maelstrom: 395 dps (6.5k alpha) Apocalypse: 372 (1.8k alpha) (mega beams) Apocalypse: 401 dps (2.7k alpha) (tachyons) Rokh: 321 dps (1.6k alpha) Let's move it down to HACs shall we? Zealot - 290 dps (719 alpha) Muninn - 232 dps (1.9k alpha) Eagle - 188 dps (659 alpha) Now let's put this into a real context: mix in a few rail ships with arty/beam ones, and what'll very likely happen is the target ship gets alpha'd so fast the rails generally good rate of fire doesn't even come into play. Lasers have nice dps, artillery has insane alpha damage - what reason is there to use rails exactly? _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
Diesel74	Posted - 2010.11.22 14:21:00 - [30] Originally by: Elder Lemon I recently saw a picture of the rokh next to the golden gate bridge and saw how truely massive it is. The building next to it could have been a 425mm railgun. So if the rokh were that big the 425mm guns would be slightly larger than half the size of that building and yet only shoot a 16.7 inch round? This is why railguns suck. Just because they move at hypersonic speeds doesnt mean they cant contain an explosive. For reference WWII japanese battleships had 18 inch guns hurling High Explosive shells over 22 miles (35km) IN ATMOSPHERE with gravity being a factor and could sometimes hit moving targets with the crap mechanization and turret movements of the day. So our increadibly furtureistic railguns cant toss a 16 inch shell much further than 45km (Rokh: range bonus battleship IV, antimatter) with none of the air-rated friction of atmosphere and zero gravity and still cant hit a moving battleship any closer than 15km? With the ammount of electricity it takes to get something going at hypersonic speed i would expect a little magnetism to be on the full metal shells dealing some EM damage t whatever poor shield system or armor plating (no hull damage of course, rails dont get that kind of love) has to flatten the shell. Reference: If i had to guess (by the size of the portreyed barrel) the barrel of a railgun could be related to the diameter of an oil drum with a pencil hole in it for an exit. And shooting this at another battleship (slightly larger than human-size projectiles could be related to shooting a spitwad at a humvee (power and size proportioned)) Where is this picture?



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