EVE Search - CCP, Why the simplification?

All Channels

EVE General Discussion

CCP, Why the simplification?

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 :: one page
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
BlackBlades	Posted - 2010.11.27 14:32:00 - [1] To The Eve Community and Designers, I have not been around long, so please excuse me if IÆm off base. Recently plans have been announced to get rid of Learning Skills, as well as put Faction Ships on the market order system, among others. I will not go into various ways this removes game complexity, IÆm sure both the game designers and community understand that. I do fear that this is a avalanche waiting to happen. I feel the base community enjoy, and choose Eve, because of the depth of the game. In my experience when games start to simplify, people leave. Eve is still one of the more complex and involved games today so this is not a fear now, however, there is always some money somewhere waiting to fill a void. I don't think anything I say will change decisions already made, but I hope that the next thing I read isn't that implants are gone, because the newbies did not realize how useful they were, or that we all get remaps every 6 months instead of 12 because people are not patient. Thank You. P.S. It would be nice if a dev responded with insurances to the community that this is not a change of principle, the game is not going through a slow simplification, and that complexity will continue to be a focus of the team. P.S.S Always welcome to add more depth to Eve too....
De'Veldrin Minmatar Green-Core The Obsidian Legion	Posted - 2010.11.27 14:34:00 - [2] And this really should have gone into General Discussion. --Vel
Scatim Helicon GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.11.27 15:06:00 - [3] Skillgrinding is not 'complexity' or 'depth'. -----------------
BlackBlades	Posted - 2010.11.27 15:41:00 - [4] To be fair, I don't see any of this as some huge evil change. I only wanted to state that it "could" be the start of something, not that it is all down hill from here. Sorry if I gave out the wrong impression.
Gallians	Posted - 2010.11.27 15:48:00 - [5] I'm sorry, I missed the proposal in there. Nonsensical systems that impose an artificially high barrier or entry and make people quit (learnings), or that have little sense (why are certain items not on markets?) have nothing to do with depth. More like errors that shoulda been fixed a while ago, and just finally were. IF the proposal is that they stop changing eve, which in my opinion is changing for the better, then not supported.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2010.11.27 15:50:00 - [6] Originally by: BlackBlades To be fair, I don't see any of this as some huge evil change. I only wanted to state that it "could" be the start of something, not that it is all down hill from here. Sorry if I gave out the wrong impression. There already where several threads that expressed the same.. should have added your opinion in them, instead of posting in the wrong forum. New Eden needs a Public Feature/Idea/Bug-Tracker
BlackBlades	Posted - 2010.11.27 16:07:00 - [7] lol, wow rough group. It is what it is.
EdwardNardella Capital Construction Research	Posted - 2010.11.27 16:22:00 - [8] FYI I believe CCP avoids posting in this sub forum. General discussion is a better place for this. CCRES is recruiting pilots who want to live in WSpace/Wormholes. Fill out an application here!
Black Dranzer Caldari	Posted - 2010.11.27 16:22:00 - [9] I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. The key to understanding the removal of learning skills is to realize that they truly are a unique case. Firstly, they're the only skills which have no tangible gameplay effect. By this, I mean they don't change how well your ships operate or your standings or your ability to build things or anything along those realms. They are the only skills like this. Secondly, they're required for optimum performance regardless of what you intend your character to do. It doesn't matter if you're a miner or a hauler or a mission runner or a PvPer, you can benefit from learning skills. Again, no other skills fall under this category. Thirdly, they have a very clearly defined optimum strategy; The sooner you get them, the better off you are. Some people will tell you that it's more "fun" to get other skills first, and those people are right, but "fun" isn't a strategy. When you combine these three, you end up with a group of skills which have no tangible gameplay benefit but which must never the less be trained as soon as possible in order to gain the most benefit from them. This means there's a strong motivation for newbies to learn them. But learning them is boring, so often, a newbie will quit halfway through the learning skill process. There are some people who will tell you that those newbies who quit are newbies that we don't want playing Eve. Those people are elitist idiots who wouldn't know their head from their ass. I have nothing else to say about them. If you consider these issues in depth, you can come to realize that learning skills are unique in that they deter newbies while not offering any interesting gameplay decisions. The choice of learning skills becomes a matter of willpower, not intelligence. This is not good game design. Simplification is not inherently evil. Sometimes things really are needlessly obtuse or vestigial.
Aelsa Portal Technologies	Posted - 2010.11.27 17:46:00 - [10] Originally by: Black Dranzer I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. The key to understanding the removal of learning skills is to realize that they truly are a unique case. Firstly, they're the only skills which have no tangible gameplay effect. By this, I mean they don't change how well your ships operate or your standings or your ability to build things or anything along those realms. They are the only skills like this. Secondly, they're required for optimum performance regardless of what you intend your character to do. It doesn't matter if you're a miner or a hauler or a mission runner or a PvPer, you can benefit from learning skills. Again, no other skills fall under this category. Thirdly, they have a very clearly defined optimum strategy; The sooner you get them, the better off you are. Some people will tell you that it's more "fun" to get other skills first, and those people are right, but "fun" isn't a strategy. When you combine these three, you end up with a group of skills which have no tangible gameplay benefit but which must never the less be trained as soon as possible in order to gain the most benefit from them. This means there's a strong motivation for newbies to learn them. But learning them is boring, so often, a newbie will quit halfway through the learning skill process. There are some people who will tell you that those newbies who quit are newbies that we don't want playing Eve. Those people are elitist idiots who wouldn't know their head from their ass. I have nothing else to say about them. If you consider these issues in depth, you can come to realize that learning skills are unique in that they deter newbies while not offering any interesting gameplay decisions. The choice of learning skills becomes a matter of willpower, not intelligence. This is not good game design. Simplification is not inherently evil. Sometimes things really are needlessly obtuse or vestigial. I approve of this comment.

CCP Zymurgist Gallente C C P	Posted - 2010.11.27 18:51:00 - [11] Moved from Assembly Hall. Zymurgist Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact Us

Vertisce Soritenshi O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance	Posted - 2010.11.27 18:55:00 - [12] I don't see the removal of Learning skills as a "simplifying" or "dumbing down" of the game so much as a removal of an nuisance and a feature that is really nothing more than a waste of time. Sig.Learning skills vote.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.11.27 18:57:00 - [13] Originally by: Black Dranzer "fun" isn't a strategy You must be a hoot at parties. - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
Terianna Eri Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2010.11.27 19:03:00 - [14] Originally by: Black Dranzer I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. The key to understanding the removal of learning skills is to realize that they truly are a unique case. ... Simplification is not inherently evil. Sometimes things really are needlessly obtuse or vestigial. I approve this product or service. ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.11.27 19:15:00 - [15] Edited by: Tippia on 27/11/2010 19:16:57 Originally by: BlackBlades I will not go into various ways this removes game complexity, IÆm sure both the game designers and community understand that. You should, because it doesn't. I'll repost this from where you should have posted the OP to begin with: Learning skills did not make EVE any more difficult, and removing them doesn't make it any easier. You're confusing difficulty with tedium ù both of which make things take longer (or at least feel like they do), but for vastly different reasons. By your standard, Progress Quest ù a "game" you leave running in your status field, is the most difficult game ever. Conversely, removing tedium is not the same as simplification ù both may make things require less time, but, again, for vastly different reasons. If you want an example of the difference, look at the old and the new PI interface. The new one is much less tedious than the old one, but actually far more complex and it actually adds difficulty by being streamlined. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.11.27 19:17:00 - [16] Originally by: Tippia You're confusing difficulty with tedium Funny you should quote that, as you're confusing difficulty with complexity. - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.11.27 19:21:00 - [17] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Tippia You're confusing difficulty with tedium Funny you should quote that, as you're confusing difficulty with complexity. They didn't add that either, so feel free to search/replace in that post and it'll still stand. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2010.11.27 19:21:00 - [18] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Tippia You're confusing difficulty with tedium Funny you should quote that, as you're confusing difficulty with complexity. What's complex in choosing 'the most bang for the buck' coupled with the neck breaking tedium of needing to look paint dry for the next 3 months? I really don't get you on this one Crumple. New Eden needs a Public Feature/Idea/Bug-Tracker
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.11.27 19:24:00 - [19] Originally by: Tres Farmer What's complex in choosing 'the most bang for the buck' I would think very little, yet everyone insists that 1 month of learning skills is mandatory, so apparently there is some complexity there. Originally by: Tres Farmer coupled with the neck breaking tedium of needing to look paint dry for the next 3 months?I really don't get you on this one Crumple. Similarly I cannot divine the source of this fiction. - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
Gallians	Posted - 2010.11.27 19:33:00 - [20] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Tres Farmer What's complex in choosing 'the most bang for the buck' I would think very little, yet everyone insists that 1 month of learning skills is mandatory, so apparently there is some complexity there. Originally by: Tres Farmer coupled with the neck breaking tedium of needing to look paint dry for the next 3 months?I really don't get you on this one Crumple. Similarly I cannot divine the source of this fiction. I think the source is reality.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.11.27 19:39:00 - [21] Originally by: Gallians I'm right and you're wrong. That's cute. - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
Gallians	Posted - 2010.11.27 19:44:00 - [22] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Gallians I'm right and you're wrong. NO U! I thought so too.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.11.27 19:45:00 - [23] Originally by: Gallians Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Gallians I'm right and you're wrong. That's cute. I've got nothing else! So it seems. - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
Gallians	Posted - 2010.11.27 19:47:00 - [24] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Gallians Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Gallians I'm right and you're wrong. NO U! I've got nothing else! Neither do I! I like your sigs.
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.11.27 19:47:00 - [25] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Gallians Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Gallians I'm right and you're wrong. That's cute. I've got nothing else! It seems we both can't defend our arguements. Yes, yes it does. -- I am now on a Crusade to Fix the Omen! For Great Justice!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.11.27 19:48:00 - [26] Originally by: Gallians I like your sigs. <3 - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.11.27 19:49:00 - [27] I admit to spending 15min spaming refresh to see them all. -- I am now on a Crusade to Fix the Omen! For Great Justice!
Zhim'Fufu	Posted - 2010.11.27 19:55:00 - [28] Originally by: Alara IonStorm I admit to spending 15min spaming refresh to see them all. You might want to check that link under his sig.
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.11.27 19:58:00 - [29] Originally by: Zhim'Fufu Originally by: Alara IonStorm I admit to spending 15min spaming refresh to see them all. You might want to check that link under his sig. You just ruined all the suprise... I was still getting new ones. -- I am now on a Crusade to Fix the Omen! For Great Justice!
Kyra Felann Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.11.27 20:12:00 - [30] Needless complexity - bad Complexity that adds depth - good I think learning skills are an example of the former. They add no real depth or strategic decisions. They are an unnecessary speed bump on the way to training skills that do stuff. I don't see any loss of depth or good complexity from putting faction ships on the market, either. I love complex games like EVE, Dwarf Fortress, etc, but I don't see either of these changes as anything but good. I haven't seen a valid defense that either of these are dumbing down the game in any real way. -----SIGNATURE----- Originally by: CCP Ginger Ships have crews, most pod controlled frigates do not, above that they have crews of varying sizes. Hope that helps.

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.