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US Gov't attacking piracy...again.

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So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 09:08:00 - [61] Originally by: Wild Rho That point was poorly made How so? He asked me to point out a gain, I gave him a simple example. There's nothing poor about it. Originally by: Wild Rho and you never actually backed it up with some sort of evidence (that clearly existed) As I've said, multiple times, if common knowledge isn't good enough then that's too bad. I don't know what evidence you're referring to, non has been provided. Originally by: Wild Rho but instead chose to turn the debate towards an argument about how you didn't need to provide it No, that would be him. Originally by: Wild Rho You've still also failed to address those that are not simply happy to take pride in their work and do expect to get paid for that they produce. Very true, it's a shame I've spent an entire page talking about how awesome Michael is at debates. Originally by: Wild Rho Taking a copy is still taking, you are using the products or services provided by someone without paying them for their work when it was not provided for free use, therefore it's still stealing. Unless you disagree with IP rights, at which point it is no longer stealing.
EspionageX Wrecking Shots -Mostly Harmless-	Posted - 2010.11.28 09:17:00 - [62] Pirates gunna Pirate.
Wild Rho Amarr Sniggerdly	Posted - 2010.11.28 09:29:00 - [63] I'm afraid "common knowledge" without evidence isn't good enough in a debate if you want your point to have any weight. If you're refusing to provide some hard evidence then you've made the point poorly and are not doing a terribly good job making a convincing arguement. IP rights are law so whether you agree with them or not does not justify breaking them or make it any less illegal.
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Warsmiths	Posted - 2010.11.28 09:30:00 - [64] Kinda reminds you of having a discussion with a donkey about Kevin Bacon being in Footloose doesn't it?
Perfection Tau Cuties Only.	Posted - 2010.11.28 09:33:00 - [65] Largest part of expenses for let's say gamedev or software development company is advertisement. You pay mostly for this product being sold to you. While actual development and printing as many DVD as needed are only a small fraction. 'Nuff said
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 09:50:00 - [66] Originally by: Wild Rho I'm afraid "common knowledge" without evidence isn't good enough in a debate if you want your point to have any weight. Hence why I chose a simple example, something which most people wouldn't need evidence to grasp. I suppose that was expecting too much. Originally by: Wild Rho If you're refusing to provide some hard evidence then you've made the point poorly and are not doing a terribly good job making a convincing arguement. This point should not have needed hard evidence. Originally by: Wild Rho IP rights are law so whether you agree with them or not does not justify breaking them or make it any less illegal. I never said it was legal. When it comes to justification however, that is usually based on morals, on what you consider right and wrong. So yes, disagreeing with them does justify breaking them.
Scorpionidae	Posted - 2010.11.28 09:56:00 - [67] Came in here hoping for Yarrr Pirates... Left dissapointed and upset cos of the mean OP. Quote: I usually ignore this forum because i find far too many tinfoil hats here. Scorpionidae
Wild Rho Amarr Sniggerdly	Posted - 2010.11.28 10:16:00 - [68] Originally by: So Sensational Hence why I chose a simple example, something which most people wouldn't need evidence to grasp. I suppose that was expecting too much. The example doesn't do anything to prove your point, actual evidence would. Throw insults around if you want but it still leaves you with a weak point. Originally by: So Sensational This point should not have needed hard evidence. Yes it does. Any time you make a general statement or apply "common knowledge" you need some facts to back it up. Originally by: So Sensational I never said it was legal. When it comes to justification however, that is usually based on morals, on what you consider right and wrong. So yes, disagreeing with them does justify breaking them. If you disagree with a law you can protest it and/or appeal to get it changed but it doesn't create a justification to ignore it any more than you can chose to ignore other laws.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 10:31:00 - [69] Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 10:33:48 Originally by: Wild Rho The example doesn't do anything to prove your point, actual evidence would. Throw insults around if you want but it still leaves you with a weak point. My point is that when it comes to piracy, there is a gain involved for the creators, hence the example. The only evidence I could provide is that the example is true and I honestly can't be arsed to look for evidence that human beings take pride in doing something well. Originally by: Wild Rho Yes it does. Any time you make a general statement or apply "common knowledge" you need some facts to back it up. In a serious debate at Harvard, yes. I approach these forums more like say, talking to a friend or a co-worker about a subject that we're both interested in. I don't walk over to my closet, put on a tie and pull out my facts book every time I hit the bookmark. Originally by: Wild Rho If you disagree with a law you can protest it and/or appeal to get it changed but it doesn't create a justification to ignore it any more than you can chose to ignore other laws. Any more? No. Just as much? For sure. For that same reason I sometimes, while riding a bicycle, cross the street when there's a red light.
Wild Rho Amarr Sniggerdly	Posted - 2010.11.28 11:06:00 - [70] Originally by: So Sensational My point is that when it comes to piracy, there is a gain involved for the creators, hence the example. The only evidence I could provide is that the example is true and I honestly can't be arsed to look for evidence that human beings take pride in doing something well. The gain you state doesn't pay the bills, put food on the table or help someone grow their business/career. The evidence you were asked to provide wasn't that people take pride in their works, it was that there are some who don't mind their work being pirated even though it's not provided for free. Originally by: So Sensational In a serious debate at Harvard, yes. I approach these forums more like say, talking to a friend or a co-worker about a subject that we're both interested in. I don't walk over to my closet, put on a tie and pull out my facts book every time I hit the bookmark. That's fair enough, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Originally by: So Sensational Any more? No. Just as much? For sure. For that same reason I sometimes, while riding a bicycle, cross the street when there's a red light. The difference being that riding your bike across the street in a red light doesn't have an impact on anyone (unless you cause an accident). Taking what someone else provides (copying or otherwise) without paying for it is taking away their financial gain for the time and effort they put into their work, this does impact someone.

So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 11:23:00 - [71] Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 11:25:39 Originally by: Wild Rho The gain you state doesn't pay the bills, put food on the table or help someone grow their business/career. The evidence you were asked to provide wasn't that people take pride in their works, it was that there are some who don't mind their work being pirated even though it's not provided for free. Nor did I claim it paid for anything. I have no idea why someone would ask me to provide that sort of evidence, and I cannot understand why that wouldn't be specified when suddenly brought up in a discussion about something quite different. Could it be because, as I've been saying, he failed miserably at reading my posts? Originally by: Wild Rho That's fair enough, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Cool. Originally by: Wild Rho The difference being that riding your bike across the street in a red light doesn't have an impact on anyone (unless you cause an accident). Taking what someone else provides (copying or otherwise) without paying for it is taking away their financial gain for the time and effort they put into their work, this does impact someone. Ah, and this would be the part which we already covered earlier. I don't take away anyone's financial gain when I download because I purchase as much as I can and download on top of that. This is the core argument of the music (Well, media I suppose) industry, the delusional idea that every download equals a lost transaction. See now if this was a serious debate, and I being the Pro representative, I'd now be bringing up the potential gains of being able to get your products out to potential costumers through piracy, customers who never would've known of said products otherwise. But then you'd go "OMGEVIDANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!" and we'd be on page 5 before we actually talk about the subject again.
Feilamya Pain Elemental	Posted - 2010.11.28 11:39:00 - [72] Originally by: Wild Rho The difference being that riding your bike across the street in a red light doesn't have an impact on anyone (unless you cause an accident). Taking what someone else provides (copying or otherwise) without paying for it is taking away their financial gain for the time and effort they put into their work, this does impact someone. While I agree with you on most points, the bolded part is wrong. Riding a bike is stealing, because you take away the financial gain of the car industry (and the petrol industry and all industries that depend on the former) for the time and effort they put into their work.
Wild Rho Amarr Sniggerdly	Posted - 2010.11.28 12:32:00 - [73] Originally by: So Sensational Nor did I claim it paid for anything. I have no idea why someone would ask me to provide that sort of evidence, and I cannot understand why that wouldn't be specified when suddenly brought up in a discussion about something quite different. Could it be because, as I've been saying, he failed miserably at reading my posts? I never asked you to show me evidence that pride or whatever paid the bills. I asked you to provide evidence that people who produce for profit are happy with being pirated. Originally by: So Sensational Ah, and this would be the part which we already covered earlier. I don't take away anyone's financial gain when I download because I purchase as much as I can and download on top of that. This is the core argument of the music (Well, media I suppose) industry, the delusional idea that every download equals a lost transaction. You'll need to be more clear about the bolded part. What is it you download on top of your purchases (things you can't afford / things not available etc)? Originally by: So Sensational See now if this was a serious debate, and I being the Pro representative, I'd now be bringing up the potential gains of being able to get your products out to potential costumers through piracy, customers who never would've known of said products otherwise. But then you'd go "OMGEVIDANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!" and we'd be on page 5 before we actually talk about the subject again. Well yeah, it's all well and good to say that all this stuff "could" happen or has the "potential" to happen but you need to actually show that its a real possibility or I could just counter argue that others "could" just pirate it the same way you have with a net gain of nothing for the producers. Then all that happens is we go back and forth all day making up hypothetical situations to support our arguments and ignore what's actually going on on the real world. Originally by: Feilamya Riding a bike is stealing, because you take away the financial gain of the car industry (and the petrol industry and all industries that depend on the former) for the time and effort they put into their work. Insane Troll Logic.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 12:51:00 - [74] Originally by: Wild Rho I never asked you to show me evidence that pride or whatever paid the bills. I asked you to provide evidence that people who produce for profit are happy with being pirated. And why would you (You = Michael?) do this? Have I claimed that this is the case? Originally by: Wild Rho You'll need to be more clear about the bolded part. What is it you download on top of your purchases (things you can't afford / things not available etc)? Both do apply I suppose, anything I can't get a hold of in a legal way. Like anyone else my funds are limited, I can only afford to spend so much and anything that doesn't make the cut gets downloaded. In theory, in reality I've never done anything illegal, especially not piracy, which is a horrible crime Originally by: Wild Rho Well yeah, it's all well and good to say that all this stuff "could" happen or has the "potential" to happen but you need to actually show that its a real possibility or I could just counter argue that others "could" just pirate it the same way you have with a net gain of nothing for the producers. Then all that happens is we go back and forth all day making up hypothetical situations to support our arguments and ignore what's actually going on on the real world. Sure, but lets say I make a reasonable argument. For example, having your song downloaded 1 million times exposes you to an audience. Parts of this audience might not have heard your song otherwise, parts of this audience might tell their friends about your song. To me this makes sense and is a very likely scenario. So you'll basically shout EVIDANCE and then ignore it completely? Or would you agree with me if I say that there's some free advertisement involved in piracy, and as such the creator does gain something from piracy? Notice that there can be gain and loss at the same time, I'm not saying that "piracy adds +5 dollars to our revenue stream" but that there's a positive aspect too. This is as opposed to Michael's statement that when I download "the creator gains nothing and I gain something", the whole purpose of the past 2 pages or so I thought.
Feilamya Pain Elemental	Posted - 2010.11.28 14:05:00 - [75] Originally by: Wild Rho Originally by: Feilamya Riding a bike is stealing, because you take away the financial gain of the car industry (and the petrol industry and all industries that depend on the former) for the time and effort they put into their work. Insane Troll Logic. Calling your own arguments "insane troll logic" won't make it easier to debunk them when they come right back at you. Maybe your opponents in this discussion can help you?
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.11.28 14:17:00 - [76] Quote: Every download is a lost sale Every download is free advertising. - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
Wild Rho Amarr Sniggerdly	Posted - 2010.11.28 15:12:00 - [77] Originally by: So Sensational And why would you (You = Michael?) do this? Have I claimed that this is the case? No we're not the same person although after re-reading what I typed I can see how you would ask that :P And yes, you said some people "probably" are ok with being pirated hence being asked to show some evidence for that (quote from your post on the second page): Originally by: So Sensational Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Do they still enjoy the idea that somebody is viewing or using their goods even though they receive nothing in kind for their work? Some probably do. Edit: Assuming that idea contains the example I gave you, the pride in their work. ^ tbh this part of the discussion part has been done to death and is just going in circles at this point. Originally by: So Sensational Both do apply I suppose, anything I can't get a hold of in a legal way. Like anyone else my funds are limited, I can only afford to spend so much and anything that doesn't make the cut gets downloaded. I can understand someone downloading something they'll never be able to purchase due to there being no other way to obtain it but not being able to afford it is no excuse. Originally by:* So Sensational In theory, in reality I've never done anything illegal, especially not piracy, which is a horrible crime No the law is pretty clear in this. Piracy is illegal no matter what the reason you chose to give or whether you agree with it. That said out of the many crimes in the world it's hardly the worst. Originally by:* So Sensational Sure, but lets say I make a reasonable argument. For example, having your song downloaded 1 million times exposes you to an audience. Parts of this audience might not have heard your song otherwise, parts of this audience might tell their friends about your song. To me this makes sense and is a very likely scenario. So you'll basically shout EVIDANCE and then ignore it completely? Or would you agree with me if I say that there's some free advertisement involved in piracy, and as such the creator does gain something from piracy? Notice that there can be gain and loss at the same time, I'm not saying that "piracy adds +5 dollars to our revenue stream" but that there's a positive aspect too. This is as opposed to Michael's statement that when I download "the creator gains nothing and I gain something", the whole purpose of the past 2 pages or so I thought. Of course I'm going to shout evidence, the situation described is nice but has that actually happened to anyone? And yes, piracy can give free advertising, I won't deny it but if it doesn't translate into an income the producers can use to keep going it doesn't matter.
Creepy CousinRoger	Posted - 2010.11.28 15:20:00 - [78] Originally by: Blane Xero Torrent is not Synonymous with Piracy, Illegal or Crime. Go educate yourself. Brb, adding ... The Pirate Bay ... Oh irony
Vogue Skynet Nexus	Posted - 2010.11.28 15:53:00 - [79] The internet is still a nirvana for free news, free videos, free this, free that. I used to buy lots of magazines about computers, cars, other stuff. Now I get it all from the internet. Now I can watch the TV I want and on demand. I loathe watching regular TV. It's so puerile now. The loss of advertising revenue has meant the quality of programming has gone down. Although In the UK the Sky satellitee TV is a very slick package with good stuff to choose from. You just have to pay for it. ..................................................
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Angry Dogs	Posted - 2010.11.28 16:28:00 - [80] Originally by: Crumplecorn Quote: Every download is a lost sale Every download is free advertising. Why buy it when you have it already?

Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.11.28 16:34:00 - [81] Originally by: baltec1 Why buy it when you have it already? Because some people buy things to own them or to support the creators, not because it is the only way they can get their hands on a copy. - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Angry Dogs	Posted - 2010.11.28 16:39:00 - [82] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: baltec1 Why buy it when you have it already? Because some people buy things to own them or to support the creators, not because it is the only way they can get their hands on a copy. You honestly belive that? Back at college most students just downloaded a copy just so they didn't have to pay for it. Same can be said for work, one guy downloads it and sells copies for 50p to everyone else. If people wanted to watch a film before buying it then they would make a night of it and go to the cinema.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.11.28 16:44:00 - [83] Originally by: baltec1 You honestly belive that? Belief doesn't come into it. It's a fact. - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Angry Dogs	Posted - 2010.11.28 16:48:00 - [84] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: baltec1 You honestly belive that? Belief doesn't come into it. It's a fact. I have yet to see this fact. As I said, at college and work most people just get a copy for free.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.11.28 16:55:00 - [85] Originally by: baltec1 I have yet to see this fact. As I said, at college and work most people just get a copy for free. Oh, well, if baltec1 hasn't seen it, it can't be true! - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
ceaon	Posted - 2010.11.28 16:56:00 - [86] Edited by: ceaon on 28/11/2010 16:56:33 why ppl never argue @ my post when i post on this thread i mean i was way way more controversial that the crap u talk Originally by: CCP Adida The male thread was locked because the discussion turned into transsexuals and man boobs.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Angry Dogs	Posted - 2010.11.28 17:02:00 - [87] Edited by: baltec1 on 28/11/2010 17:03:51 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: baltec1 I have yet to see this fact. As I said, at college and work most people just get a copy for free. Oh, well, if baltec1 hasn't seen it, it can't be true! It doesn't help to convince me when everybody who defends piracy fails to support their own arguements. It also doesnt help when just about everyone I know who does download films do so simply to avoid paying what they see as too much for movies they want.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.11.28 17:10:00 - [88] Originally by: baltec1 It also doesnt help when just about everyone I know who does download films do so simply to avoid paying what they see as too much for movies they want. Everyone I know downloads films and has impressive movie collections. In my case it's more TV box sets. I guess we just know different people. - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc.	Posted - 2010.11.28 17:59:00 - [89] Originally by: Izzy Lizzy Edited by: Izzy Lizzy on 28/11/2010 07:20:11 Anybody that believes in the legitimacy of copyright that enjoys listening to Bach should throw out all his music on principle. If he had lived under our draconian copyright laws we'd have never heard of him. Copyrights, patents, and IP law should all be abolished. I mean do you people seriously believe you can copyright an idea? There's not one invention in history that ever came from the idea of just one person. Invention and innovation happen as a result of people interacting with each other. Just take a look at the history of copyright. It originated as a tool for censorship. And patents are nothing more than trying to use the force of government to guarantee you get a ton of money at the expense of your competitor. Something society ultimately pays for in the form of higher prices for everything. And don't tell me that without patents no one would invent things. As if things weren't invented before the Patent Office existed. Patents don't provide incentive for people to make profits. They provide incentive for people to sue anyone that tries to compete with your beloved cash cow. You'd know that if you ever looked into patent law. I figured I would bump this back up since it is what this topic is really about. Slade :Signature Temporarily Disabled:
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2010.11.28 18:12:00 - [90] Originally by: Creepy CousinRoger Originally by: Blane Xero Torrent is not Synonymous with Piracy, Illegal or Crime. Go educate yourself. Brb, adding ... The Pirate Bay ... Oh irony TPB is the only website to ever produce hard statistics (During their trial) about the illegal:legal ratio of torrents. I seem to recall over half, close to 70%? of their torrents are legal. Game Over, Try Again? 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1... Bloop~ _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by: CCP Fallout Been there. Done that. Need antibiotics.



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