EVE Search - US Gov't attacking piracy...again.

Check My IP Information

All Channels

Out of Pod Experience

US Gov't attacking piracy...again.

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 :: [one page]

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Konoch Caldari Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.11.27 23:17:00 - [1] I usually ignore this forum because i find far too many tinfoil hats here. However when stuff like this happens it's only fair to report it here. http://torrentfreak.com/u-s-government-seizes-bittorrent-search-engine-domain-and-more-101126/ http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/130763-homeland-security-dept-seizes-domain-names- http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/11/27/feds-seizes-websites-suspected-online-piracy/ Not sure what the end result of this will be but it's starting a cold chapter in the net.
Atomos Darksun D00M. Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2010.11.27 23:22:00 - [2] If you're going to start a post off with an insult, why even bother coming here? Originally by: Amoxin My vent is talking to me in a devil voice... Linkification, Baby.
illford baker STK Scientific IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.11.27 23:29:00 - [3] a cold chapter for who? the lawless individuals who steal everything they want because of their sense of entitlement. i for one welcome law to the internet, can there be a golden age in a lawless world?
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2010.11.27 23:40:00 - [4] Originally by: illford baker a cold chapter for who? the lawless individuals who steal everything they want because of their sense of entitlement. i for one welcome law to the internet, can there be a golden age in a lawless world? Torrent is not Synonymous with Piracy, Illegal or Crime. Go educate yourself. Brb, adding Demonoid, The Pirate Bay and a couple of other places to my Hosts file, so that when the DNS servers inevitably go down, my computer already knows the IP to ping for the website. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by: CCP Fallout Been there. Done that. Need antibiotics.
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.11.28 00:11:00 - [5] My feelings. My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
illford baker STK Scientific IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.11.28 00:12:00 - [6] Originally by: Blane Xero Originally by: illford baker a cold chapter for who? the lawless individuals who steal everything they want because of their sense of entitlement. i for one welcome law to the internet, can there be a golden age in a lawless world? Torrent is not Synonymous with Piracy, Illegal or Crime. Go educate yourself. Brb, adding Demonoid, The Pirate Bay and a couple of other places to my Hosts file, so that when the DNS servers inevitably go down, my computer already knows the IP to ping for the website. torrents are to piracy as guns are to crime, torrents are great ways to distribute files but the fact is that most torrents are for piracy.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2010.11.28 00:18:00 - [7] Originally by: illford baker Originally by: Blane Xero Originally by: illford baker a cold chapter for who? the lawless individuals who steal everything they want because of their sense of entitlement. i for one welcome law to the internet, can there be a golden age in a lawless world? Torrent is not Synonymous with Piracy, Illegal or Crime. Go educate yourself. Brb, adding Demonoid, The Pirate Bay and a couple of other places to my Hosts file, so that when the DNS servers inevitably go down, my computer already knows the IP to ping for the website. torrents are to piracy as guns are to crime, torrents are great ways to distribute files but the fact is that most torrents are for piracy. And yet nobody can provide hard numbers on this. It's always this broad statement that it comes down to; but there is absolutely no rock solid statistic that shows how many torrents contain illegal files compared to ones that do not. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by: CCP Fallout Been there. Done that. Need antibiotics.
illford baker STK Scientific IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.11.28 00:29:00 - [8] Edited by: illford baker on 28/11/2010 00:31:10 Originally by: Blane Xero And yet nobody can provide hard numbers on this. It's always this broad statement that it comes down to; but there is absolutely no rock solid statistic that shows how many torrents contain illegal files compared to ones that do not. yes because piracy is such a shady business, but you cannot say that there are not a large number of illegal torrents out there. how do pirates do their business then? sending flash drives/cards through snail mail?
el Sabor	Posted - 2010.11.28 00:48:00 - [9] I've never really known anyone who uses torrents to get anything legally to be honest!
illford baker STK Scientific IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.11.28 00:53:00 - [10] Originally by: el Sabor I've never really known anyone who uses torrents to get anything legally to be honest! clear skies

Cpt Placeholder	Posted - 2010.11.28 00:53:00 - [11] Blizzard uses torrents to distribute their downloads.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel	Posted - 2010.11.28 00:55:00 - [12] Originally by: illford baker Originally by: el Sabor I've never really known anyone who uses torrents to get anything legally to be honest! clear skies I downloaded America's Army from torrent, it's a free game and I think that anyone caught pirating things should have their hands cut off, mainly for the youtube vids of it Originally by: Xen Gin Originally by: FOl2TY8 I know that some people like to have voluntary periods of abstinence. Yeah, I use that excuse too.
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Warsmiths	Posted - 2010.11.28 01:19:00 - [13] Originally by: Atomos Darksun If you're going to start a post off with an insult, why even bother coming here? Because it's the eve way.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel	Posted - 2010.11.28 01:26:00 - [14] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Originally by: Atomos Darksun If you're going to start a post off with an insult, why even bother coming here? Because it's the eve way. I think it's required by the EULA Originally by: Xen Gin Originally by: FOl2TY8 I know that some people like to have voluntary periods of abstinence. Yeah, I use that excuse too.
Pr1ncess Alia	Posted - 2010.11.28 01:34:00 - [15] "This is our world now. The world of the electron and the switch; the beauty of the baud. We exist without nationality, skin color, or religious bias. You wage wars, murder, cheat, lie to us and try to make us believe it's for our own good, yet we're the criminals. Yes, I am a criminal. My crime is that of curiosity. I am a hacker, and this is my manifesto. You may stop me, but you can't stop us all." HACK THE PLANET!!!1! --- Players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Fyretracker Heavy Industries	Posted - 2010.11.28 01:55:00 - [16] Edited by: Viktor Fyretracker on 28/11/2010 01:57:04 I am against anything like this, the government has no right to seize websites without full due legal process as long as the site is in the US. Of course it does not work that way because here in the US the government is not "For the people by the people" but "For the Corporation by the Corporation" May as well license the name "Caldari State" and get it over with. problem here in the US is people just sit down and accept what they are fed by the corporate system.
Pr1ncess Alia	Posted - 2010.11.28 02:30:00 - [17] Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker problem here in the US is people just sit down and accept what they are fed by the corporate system. Speak for yourself there sport. Most people are apathetic on such things if they are not directly inconvenienced by it. There are plenty of people that are not. Just because you don't see WOLVERINES spray painted on the capital building doesn't mean we don't have plenty of citizens that dissent. From dope smokers that may not even realize what they are doing is ultimately patriotic, to organized political machines pursuing preservation of our rights to regular Joe's who just like to stick it to the man wherever convenient. A wise old man told me once, (paraphrasing) "time moves very very slowly. Young men see a road of progress we could take, a constant pursuit of our ideals. Old men realize we are just on a carousel, things only get so different before we make the next revolution and start right back where we were before." In the long run very little actually changes and this is a good thing. We may be on the dirtier side of the carousel ride but wait and see... the world keeps on turning. People will sit down and accept what they are fed until they stand up and don't. All of this has happened before and will happen again. --- Players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.11.28 02:52:00 - [18] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 28/11/2010 02:53:03 Is this this thing about the US turning off domain names? No harm - it'll hurt casual piracy but have no effect on the core. That'll reduce the attention given to piracy without doing any real harm. Originally by: illford baker a cold chapter for who? the lawless individuals who steal everything they want because of their sense of entitlement. i for one welcome law to the internet, can there be a golden age in a lawless world? You wouldn't download a car. - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 03:03:00 - [19] Originally by: illford baker a cold chapter for who? the lawless individuals who steal everything they want because of their sense of entitlement. i for one welcome law to the internet, can there be a golden age in a lawless world? "To illegally, or without the owner's permission, take possession of something by surreptitiously taking or carrying it away." Nope, sorry, try again.
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2010.11.28 03:06:00 - [20] Originally by: Konoch I usually ignore this forum because i find far too many tinfoil hats here. Well I guess that means I can't post here. I'll just take this fresh role of foil and go home.

illford baker STK Scientific IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.11.28 04:03:00 - [21] Originally by: So Sensational Originally by: illford baker a cold chapter for who? the lawless individuals who steal everything they want because of their sense of entitlement. i for one welcome law to the internet, can there be a golden age in a lawless world? "To illegally, or without the owner's permission, take possession of something by surreptitiously taking or carrying it away." Nope, sorry, try again. what do you mean? that is what you are doing. by pirating something, you are taking it away form the owner without paying him/her anything.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel	Posted - 2010.11.28 04:04:00 - [22] Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 28/11/2010 02:53:03 Is this this thing about the US turning off domain names? No harm - it'll hurt casual piracy but have no effect on the core. That'll reduce the attention given to piracy without doing any real harm. Originally by: illford baker a cold chapter for who? the lawless individuals who steal everything they want because of their sense of entitlement. i for one welcome law to the internet, can there be a golden age in a lawless world? You wouldn't download a car. I would if I could! Originally by: Xen Gin Originally by: FOl2TY8 I know that some people like to have voluntary periods of abstinence. Yeah, I use that excuse too.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 04:11:00 - [23] Originally by: illford baker Originally by: So Sensational Originally by: illford baker a cold chapter for who? the lawless individuals who steal everything they want because of their sense of entitlement. i for one welcome law to the internet, can there be a golden age in a lawless world? "To illegally, or without the owner's permission, take possession of something by surreptitiously taking or carrying it away." Nope, sorry, try again. what do you mean? that is what you are doing. by pirating something, you are taking it away form the owner without paying him/her anything. Nope, I am making a copy (From another third party no less), I take nothing.
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Warsmiths	Posted - 2010.11.28 05:03:00 - [24] Originally by: So Sensational Originally by: illford baker Originally by: So Sensational Originally by: illford baker a cold chapter for who? the lawless individuals who steal everything they want because of their sense of entitlement. i for one welcome law to the internet, can there be a golden age in a lawless world? "To illegally, or without the owner's permission, take possession of something by surreptitiously taking or carrying it away." Nope, sorry, try again. what do you mean? that is what you are doing. by pirating something, you are taking it away form the owner without paying him/her anything. Nope, I am making a copy (From another third party no less), I take nothing. Yeah yeah we've all heard these tiring and worn out excuses before. Its a copy therefore its not stealing. Its digital and not real therefore its ok. Blah blah blah. And everyone has their own reasons like being poor, or wanting to view it before purchasing an actual copy or whatever. But in the end you still gained something while the person(s) who created it gained nothing. I'm no saint here, I've done it myself a number of times now. The only difference is I know what I'm doing is wrong.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 05:10:00 - [25] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Yeah yeah we've all heard these tiring and worn out excuses before. Its a copy therefore its not stealing. Its digital and not real therefore its ok. Blah blah blah. And everyone has their own reasons like being poor, or wanting to view it before purchasing an actual copy or whatever. But in the end you still gained something while the person(s) who created it gained nothing. I'm no saint here, I've done it myself a number of times now. The only difference is I know what I'm doing is wrong. I gained something sure, he gained nothing? That can be debated. What can also be debated (Even if you come to the conclusion that he or she gained nothing) is if that is actually wrong, "not ok". I certainly don't believe so.
ceaon	Posted - 2010.11.28 05:17:00 - [26] Originally by: Konoch I usually ignore this forum because i find far too many tinfoil hats here. However when stuff like this happens it's only fair to report it here. http://torrentfreak.com/u-s-government-seizes-bittorrent-search-engine-domain-and-more-101126/ http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/130763-homeland-security-dept-seizes-domain-names- http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/11/27/feds-seizes-websites-suspected-online-piracy/ Not sure what the end result of this will be but it's starting a cold chapter in the net. let me see what i got at my finder tips freenet i2p tor gnunet why should i care ? Originally by: CCP Adida The male thread was locked because the discussion turned into transsexuals and man boobs.
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Warsmiths	Posted - 2010.11.28 05:18:00 - [27] Originally by: So Sensational I gained something sure, he gained nothing? That can be debated. What can also be debated (Even if you come to the conclusion that he or she gained nothing) is if that is actually wrong, "not ok". I certainly don't believe so. I know you don't believe so. Like I said, it helps you sleep at night. Now since you brought it up, I would love it if you were to start this debate on what they gain when you make a copy of something like a cd or a movie without paying for it. I'll let you be pro-pirate here.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 05:29:00 - [28] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Originally by: So Sensational I gained something sure, he gained nothing? That can be debated. What can also be debated (Even if you come to the conclusion that he or she gained nothing) is if that is actually wrong, "not ok". I certainly don't believe so. I know you don't believe so. Like I said, it helps you sleep at night. Sure, but then again with that logic pretty much everything does. I don't do a lot of things that I consider morally wrong. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Now since you brought it up, I would love it if you were to start this debate on what they gain when you make a copy of something like a cd or a movie without paying for it. I'll let you be pro-pirate here. It probably won't be worth the effort to go very far into the subject, considering the CCP policy on politics. But a simple example could be the pride that an artist feels when people enjoy their work.
illford baker STK Scientific IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.11.28 05:35:00 - [29] Originally by: So Sensational Nope, I am making a copy (From another third party no less), I take nothing. you are making a copy, and you are taking a sale from him. money that SHOULD go to him. you are taking something, don't try to rationalize it into something else.
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Warsmiths	Posted - 2010.11.28 05:38:00 - [30] Originally by: So Sensational Sure, but then again with that logic pretty much everything does. I don't do a lot of things that I consider morally wrong. This doesn't surprise me. Originally by: So Sensational It probably won't be worth the effort to go very far into the subject, considering the CCP policy on politics. But a simple example could be the pride that an artist feels when people enjoy their work. Many artists allow free distribution of their works as they would like to just show it off and get recognition for it. Some offer their works for free but may ask for a donation if you enjoy it which is also ok. But what about for those who have a standard price for much of their work? Do they still enjoy the idea that somebody is viewing or using their goods even though they receive nothing in kind for their work?

So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 05:47:00 - [31] Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 05:58:48 Originally by: illford baker Originally by: So Sensational Nope, I am making a copy (From another third party no less), I take nothing. you are making a copy, and you are taking a sale from him. money that SHOULD go to him. you are taking something, don't try to rationalize it into something else. I take no sale because I wouldn't and couldn't purchase the product. I already spend all the entertainment dollars (Kronor in this case) that I'm capable of spending. You could argue that if there was no piracy, and I at some point in the future had access to more money, I might purchase one of the items I download. That is possible but in my opinion that's far from enough to outweigh the positive aspects of piracy. The "taking a sale" part is a bit of a gray zone because with torrents you're sharing the files, I might be taking a sale (Or several) or I might not be depending on who I'm sharing with. That is a separate debate altogether though. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Do they still enjoy the idea that somebody is viewing or using their goods even though they receive nothing in kind for their work? Some probably do. Edit: Assuming that idea contains the example I gave you, the pride in their work.
Reiisha Evolution IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.11.28 05:52:00 - [32] Meh, typed a whole lot, but turned into a TLDR thing. In short: Media corporations are stuck in the 1920's with their businessmodels and some governments are most probably desperately trying to get the information flow on the internet under their control for obvious reasons - Using copyright law as one of their tools. "If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Warsmiths	Posted - 2010.11.28 06:16:00 - [33] Originally by: So Sensational Some probably do. Edit: Assuming that idea contains the example I gave you, the pride in their work. I will note the some probably do showing everyone that you are in fact not positive of this statement. Do you have any references?
illford baker STK Scientific IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.11.28 06:19:00 - [34] Originally by: So Sensational Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 05:58:48 I take no sale because I wouldn't and couldn't purchase the product. I already spend all the entertainment dollars (Kronor in this case) that I'm capable of spending. You could argue that if there was no piracy, and I at some point in the future had access to more money, I might purchase one of the items I download. That is possible but in my opinion that's far from enough to outweigh the positive aspects of piracy. The "taking a sale" part is a bit of a gray zone because with torrents you're sharing the files, I might be taking a sale (Or several) or I might not be depending on who I'm sharing with. That is a separate debate altogether though. if you were not going to spend money on it anyway, than you do not deserve it. if you don't think its worth money, than you don't deserve to use it. that is one of the most flimsy arguments i have ever heard defend piracy!
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 06:20:00 - [35] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Originally by: So Sensational Some probably do. Edit: Assuming that idea contains the example I gave you, the pride in their work. I will note the some probably do showing everyone that you are in fact not positive of this statement. Do you have any references? Can I prove that some artists who want to get paid also take pride in the quality (Based on the enjoyment that people get out of it) of their work? No I don't keep a list at hand, sorry.
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2010.11.28 06:26:00 - [36] Two pages and nobody noticed that this is a state security apparatus enforcing private contract.
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Warsmiths	Posted - 2010.11.28 06:54:00 - [37] Edited by: Micheal Dietrich on 28/11/2010 06:55:00 Originally by: So Sensational Can I prove that some artists who want to get paid also take pride in the quality (Based on the enjoyment that people get out of it) of their work? No I don't keep a list at hand, sorry. Just as a note, when you are in a debate it is advisable to come prepared with references as proof as it really helps your case. To let you know I can name 2 major brand names off the top of my head but as I'm playing con for the sake of the debate I will not list them...yet.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 06:58:00 - [38] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Originally by: So Sensational Can I prove that some artists who want to get paid also take pride in the quality (Based on the enjoyment that people get out of it) of their work? No I don't keep a list at hand, sorry. Just as a note, when you are in a debate it is advisable to come prepared with references as proof as it really helps your case. Just as a note I can name 2 major brand names off the top of my head but as I'm playing for the sake of the debate I will not list them...yet. Brand names relevant how exactly? I still don't understand what sort of reference you were expecting. Do you really want me to find an artist who takes pride in the quality of their work or are you just ignoring my points and rambling like a robot?
Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.11.28 06:58:00 - [39] I think piracy is a good thing for the following reasons. False advertisement No return policy Other policies Games Lets take EA for example which btw I cant remember making a good game, when they release a game I have an option to buy or 'try' with torrents. Since EA have been a huge let down, their products are always downloaded and tried first, they are then bought IF I like the game, not only do I delete the crap they have within 48hours I almost never buy since I have never been impressed. Now some of you may reply "well what about limited demo's?", this is just as bad, I want to 'test' the whole (single player part at least) game not some crappy 5 min demo. Now if I were to buy a game and delete it in 48 hours I would NEVER be able to return it, this is usually the policy game companies have which is pretty shocking since some games are so bad people should be paid to play. Reviews are biased most of the time, since I am my own person no one else can tell me what I will 'love this year' and 'is definitely worth playing'. Software With software it is a different story, I have almost always been impressed with microsoft and even though they are ****edly expensive I consider windows & office a bargain considering what you can do with them and how much I use them, these are always bought. Shows I live in England so American shows hit us like 9 months later, I am just speeding up the process, I would hardly class this as stealing since I will most likely watch the show when it is shown in England. ADVERTISEMENT SUCKS, I AM NOT GOING TO BUY YOUR AND DONT CARE, STOP SHOWING ME CRAP AND SPOILING THE SHOW!! This is another reason I download shows but I hate the ads and for the record this is why companies 'whine' at piracy, truth be told they couldnt give a about the product just the ad sales but that makes sense I guess. Movies I havent been impressed with a movie in years, back in the days when I use to download, I did it because I hated the idea of a smoking ban in cinemas, downloading meant I could smoke, eat and PAUSE without being ***ed at. Now that I have stopped smoking, I just find it easier working with æad freeÆ movies and like to be in control of what I watch. In a world where loopholes are used everyday, where lawyers question a contract because someone said and instead of or, I say download what you want or dont want. Government and business take advantage of people so I say we do the same thing, if they want it to stop they can try to stop it
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Warsmiths	Posted - 2010.11.28 07:07:00 - [40] Originally by: So Sensational Brand names relevant how exactly? I still don't understand what sort of reference you were expecting. Do you really want me to find an artist who takes pride in the quality of their work or are you just ignoring my points and rambling like a robot? Brand names. Major Labels. Members of the music industry. People who normally expect you to pay but as you state they don't mind if you attain the music by 'other' means. And yes I expect you to back up your claims, that is the very point of a debate. Like I said I can name 2 labels that state this and here you are not being able to tell me of even one. So far you have a very poor case here. I may have to give you some pointers on how to debate so you can say domo arigato Mr Roboto.

Micheal Dietrich Caldari Warsmiths	Posted - 2010.11.28 07:11:00 - [41] Originally by: Kalle Demos I havent been impressed with a movie in years, back in the days when I use to download, I did it because I hated the idea of a smoking ban in cinemas, downloading meant I could smoke, eat and PAUSE without being *****ed at. You guys used to be able to smoke in the cinema? That is kind of cool actually. As long as I've known our theaters never allowed smoking though maybe back in the '70's perhaps.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 07:13:00 - [42] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Brand names. Major Labels. Members of the music industry. People who normally expect you to pay but as you state they don't mind if you attain the music by 'other' means. Well I'd like to state that I never made that statement. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich And yes I expect you to back up your claims, that is the very point of a debate. I don't have to prove that you breathe, much like I shouldn't have to prove that some (Or even most) artists take pride in their work. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Like I said I can name 2 labels that state this and here you are not being able to tell me of even one. State what? And since when is a label a reference that proves my claim? Originally by: Micheal Dietrich So far you have a very poor case here. So far you don't seem to understand a thing I've written. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich I may have to give you some pointers on how to debate so you can say domo arigato Mr Roboto. No I'm good, but if you want I might be able to help you with your reading comprehension.
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Warsmiths	Posted - 2010.11.28 07:16:00 - [43] Originally by: So Sensational Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Brand names. Major Labels. Members of the music industry. People who normally expect you to pay but as you state they don't mind if you attain the music by 'other' means. Well I'd like to state that I never made that statement. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich And yes I expect you to back up your claims, that is the very point of a debate. I don't have to prove that you breathe, much like I shouldn't have to prove that some (Or even most) artists take pride in their work. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Like I said I can name 2 labels that state this and here you are not being able to tell me of even one. State what? And since when is a label a reference that proves my claim? Originally by: Micheal Dietrich So far you have a very poor case here. So far you don't seem to understand a thing I've written. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich I may have to give you some pointers on how to debate so you can say domo arigato Mr Roboto. No I'm good, but if you want I might be able to help you with your reading comprehension. This is an attempt to sidetrack. Con will point out that the opponent still hasn't backed up their case.
Izzy Lizzy Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2010.11.28 07:18:00 - [44] Anybody that believes in the legitimacy of copyright that enjoys listening to Bach should throw out all his music on principal. If he had lived under our draconian copyright laws we'd have never heard of him. Copyrights, patents, and IP law should all be abolished. I mean do you people seriously believe you can copyright an idea? There's not one invention in history that ever came from the idea of just one person. Invention and innovation happen as a result of people interacting with each other. Just take a look at the history of copyright. It originated as a tool for censorship. And patents are nothing more than trying to use the force of government to guarantee you get a ton of money at the expense of your competitor. Something society ultimately pays for in the form of higher prices for everything. And don't tell me that without patents no one would invent things. As if things weren't invented before the Patent Office existed. Patents don't provide incentive for people to make profits. They provide incentive for people to sue anyone that tries to compete with your beloved cash cow. You'd know that if you ever looked into patent law.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 07:22:00 - [45] Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 07:25:45 Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Originally by: So Sensational Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Brand names. Major Labels. Members of the music industry. People who normally expect you to pay but as you state they don't mind if you attain the music by 'other' means. Well I'd like to state that I never made that statement. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich And yes I expect you to back up your claims, that is the very point of a debate. I don't have to prove that you breathe, much like I shouldn't have to prove that some (Or even most) artists take pride in their work. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Like I said I can name 2 labels that state this and here you are not being able to tell me of even one. State what? And since when is a label a reference that proves my claim? Originally by: Micheal Dietrich So far you have a very poor case here. So far you don't seem to understand a thing I've written. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich I may have to give you some pointers on how to debate so you can say domo arigato Mr Roboto. No I'm good, but if you want I might be able to help you with your reading comprehension. This is an attempt to sidetrack. Con will point out that the opponent still hasn't backed up their case. There is no attempt to sidetrack. My case is that some humans take pride in their work. Pro will point out that this is common knowledge, if that is not an acceptable reference for this serious debate on this very serious internet spaceship off-topic forum then that's too bad. Yes I know that this is an appeal to the people, sue me.
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Warsmiths	Posted - 2010.11.28 07:29:00 - [46] Originally by: So Sensational There is no attempt to sidetrack. My case is that some humans take pride in their work. Pro will point out that this is common knowledge, if that is not an acceptable reference for this serious debate on this very serious internet spaceship off-topic forum then that's too bad. That is not an acceptable reference. I could tell you that in some parts of the world that the sky is orange but would you believe me? Most likely not unless I showed you a reference to back up my claim. I've also have noted that you have taken potshots at me which is another no no in debate and now you are falling back on the internet spaceships forums tag line. This is a forum of discussion like any other and OOPE is a subforum for discussion outside of internet spaceships. I am attempting to have a discussion. Have you found those references yet?
illford baker STK Scientific IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.11.28 07:30:00 - [47] Originally by: Kalle Demos wall of text games: BS, you cant "try" a whole game. take the damn risk, risk is a part of life. if demos, and reviews, and videos are not enough for you, then don't buy or torrent it, it is clearly not for you. software: yes expensive, and there are free alternatives usually (open office, linux). also you get support if you buy. shows: yea the lag sucks. but another part of life and i think that you should get the shows with no lag, you can try petitioning the right people to try and change their mind. yes ads suck, but thats why i love DVR's, skip the ads so long as you don't watch it live. TBH, there are a few good ads that did make me consider the product, but they play it again and again and again until i want to stab the creator of the ad in the face! movies: the theaters do need to bring back intermission, you expect me to hold back my large drink for that long!?!? but i am patent and willing to wait till it comes out on DVD or netflix or whatever so i can watch it as many times as i want, and stop and start as many times as i want. and as for your last statement "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" don't stoop to their level, tit for tat retaliation just makes a viscous circle. example random person: i pirate because of DRM company: i DRM because of pirate
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 07:36:00 - [48] Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 07:37:29 Originally by: Micheal Dietrich That is not an acceptable reference. Again, too bad. I'm not going to google to find a source that proves my claim (Especially not since you seem to just be trolling) and if you feel that you've "won the debate" and you're satisfied with that then that works for me. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich I've also have noted that you have taken potshots at me which is another no no in debate Right back at you. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich and now you are falling back on the internet spaceships forums tag line. Just pointing out how silly your requests are. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich I am attempting to have a discussion. Clearly not, if you wanted to you wouldn't pretend like you're a part of a high school debate team, you'd actually read what I write. What's cute is that your reference to labels is not at all relevant to my claim, nor do you seem to understand what my claim is.
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Warsmiths	Posted - 2010.11.28 07:42:00 - [49] This is just painful. Here I am with 2 links up that would back up your claims. They took me all of a half a minute to look up and yet in all this time you still cannot defend your own case. Would you like to switch sides or are you content with your sidetracking of the debate? I can do both pro or con it makes no difference to me.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 07:52:00 - [50] Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 07:52:21 Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Here I am with 2 links up that would back up your claims. They took me all of a half a minute to look up... Congratulations. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich in all this time you still cannot defend your own case. I don't feel the need to (Beyond what I've already done that is), you can play debate king all you want, in the end you haven't actually said anything that's relevant to the topic. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Would you like to switch sides or are you content with your sidetracking of the debate? That would be your doing, not mine.

Micheal Dietrich Caldari Warsmiths	Posted - 2010.11.28 08:05:00 - [51] Nah, I've attempted to keep this going but at this point all you are doing is attacking me instead of even attempting to prove your case in a debate that I let you start. I was hoping that you would have put up a little more effort but sadly a part of me knew it wouldn't last very long. Maybe if I'm lucky Akita can pick up the slack and show how to properly back up points made. Since this debate is over I'll give you the links so you'll know better next time. Trent Reznor Radiohead Better luck next time eh chap? I'll anxiously await your 'gotta have last post' rebuttal.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 08:12:00 - [52] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich I'll anxiously await your 'gotta have last post' rebuttal. Here it is. You're either trolling, ignoring me or you're an idiot. Neither one of your links proves my claim and you still don't seem to understand what my claim is. At this point (Which we've been at since your second reply in this thread), what could possibly be left for me to do other than attack you?
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Warsmiths	Posted - 2010.11.28 08:18:00 - [53] Originally by: So Sensational Originally by: Micheal Dietrich I'll anxiously await your 'gotta have last post' rebuttal. Here it is. You're either trolling, ignoring me or you're an idiot. Neither one of your links proves my claim and you still don't seem to understand what my claim is. At this point (Which we've been at since your second reply in this thread), what could possibly be left for me to do other than attack you? You have a little hurt showing there.
Ace2001 Caldari S E A R	Posted - 2010.11.28 08:20:00 - [54] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich That is not an acceptable reference. I could tell you that in some parts of the world that the sky is orange but would you believe me? Most likely not unless I showed you a reference to back up my claim. Wait, doesn't the sky turn orange-ish when the sun is setting/rising? So technically somewhere in the world right now the sky IS orange-ish?... Doesn't actually sort of prove the other person's point that somewhere in the world right now an Artist is proud and happy of their work, hoping people will enjoy it whether they bought it or got it for free? Unless my memory is playing a huge joke on me and sunsets/sunrises aren't orange-ish. D:
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 08:21:00 - [55] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich You have a little hurt showing there. Turning a thread from serious issue to "u mad?", pretty good job bro. Now get out.
Wild Rho Amarr Sniggerdly	Posted - 2010.11.28 08:25:00 - [56] Originally by: So Sensational Originally by: Micheal Dietrich I'll anxiously await your 'gotta have last post' rebuttal. Here it is. You're either trolling, ignoring me or you're an idiot. Neither one of your links proves my claim and you still don't seem to understand what my claim is. At this point (Which we've been at since your second reply in this thread), what could possibly be left for me to do other than attack you? If no one understands what your claim is it's because you've utterly failed to clearly present what it actually is. So far all it looks like is that you think piracy is "ok" but you've failed to give any sort of convicing justification as to why. When you take goods or services that were not free without paying for them then its theft, no matter what your opinion on the provider is.
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Warsmiths	Posted - 2010.11.28 08:27:00 - [57] Originally by: Ace2001 Originally by: Micheal Dietrich That is not an acceptable reference. I could tell you that in some parts of the world that the sky is orange but would you believe me? Most likely not unless I showed you a reference to back up my claim. Wait, doesn't the sky turn orange-ish when the sun is setting/rising? So technically somewhere in the world right now the sky IS orange-ish?... Doesn't actually sort of prove the other person's point that somewhere in the world right now an Artist is proud and happy of their work, hoping people will enjoy it whether they bought it or got it for free? Unless my memory is playing a huge joke on me and sunsets/sunrises aren't orange-ish. D: Many of my sunsets are more reddish with yellow sunrises but yeah depending on geographical settings many can be orange. I should have elaborated and said the sky is orange all the time but for all I know somewhere in the world that really is the case. But yeah they don't call it a Tequila sunrise for nothing. The real point though is that in a debate you have to assume that everyone present knows nothing of the subject being discussed and that you must back up your case with references and facts. Much of this is taught in high school (though I'm guessing they've dropped this since I've been there?) and I'm sure you go further into it in college if you take political science or something. Not my current field so I wouldn't know.
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Warsmiths	Posted - 2010.11.28 08:30:00 - [58] Originally by: So Sensational Originally by: Micheal Dietrich You have a little hurt showing there. Turning a thread from serious issue to "u mad?", pretty good job bro. Now get out. Give me 500 mil and I'll stop posting in this thread bro. But seriously, you are really starting to let that hurt show, you should probably move on instead of continually derailing the thread.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 08:31:00 - [59] Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 08:34:09 Originally by: Wild Rho If no one understands what your claim is it's because you've utterly failed to clearly present what it actually is. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Now since you brought it up, I would love it if you were to start this debate on what they gain when you make a copy of something like a cd or a movie without paying for it. I'll let you be pro-pirate here. Originally by: So Sensational It probably won't be worth the effort to go very far into the subject, considering the CCP policy on politics. But a simple example could be the pride that an artist feels when people enjoy their work. If underlining the text is not enough then I don't know what is. Originally by: Wild Rho When you take goods or services that were not free without paying for them then its theft, no matter what your opinion on the provider is. It sure is. But when you make a copy it's making a copy. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Give me 500 mil and I'll stop posting in this thread bro. But seriously, you are really starting to let that hurt show, you should probably move on instead of continually derailing the thread. no u
Wild Rho Amarr Sniggerdly	Posted - 2010.11.28 08:55:00 - [60] That point was poorly made and you never actually backed it up with some sort of evidence (that clearly existed) but instead chose to turn the debate towards an argument about how you didn't need to provide it followed by attacks. You've still also failed to address those that are not simply happy to take pride in their work and do expect to get paid for that they produce. Taking a copy is still taking, you are using the products or services provided by someone without paying them for their work when it was not provided for free use, therefore it's still stealing.

So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 09:08:00 - [61] Originally by: Wild Rho That point was poorly made How so? He asked me to point out a gain, I gave him a simple example. There's nothing poor about it. Originally by: Wild Rho and you never actually backed it up with some sort of evidence (that clearly existed) As I've said, multiple times, if common knowledge isn't good enough then that's too bad. I don't know what evidence you're referring to, non has been provided. Originally by: Wild Rho but instead chose to turn the debate towards an argument about how you didn't need to provide it No, that would be him. Originally by: Wild Rho You've still also failed to address those that are not simply happy to take pride in their work and do expect to get paid for that they produce. Very true, it's a shame I've spent an entire page talking about how awesome Michael is at debates. Originally by: Wild Rho Taking a copy is still taking, you are using the products or services provided by someone without paying them for their work when it was not provided for free use, therefore it's still stealing. Unless you disagree with IP rights, at which point it is no longer stealing.
EspionageX Wrecking Shots -Mostly Harmless-	Posted - 2010.11.28 09:17:00 - [62] Pirates gunna Pirate.
Wild Rho Amarr Sniggerdly	Posted - 2010.11.28 09:29:00 - [63] I'm afraid "common knowledge" without evidence isn't good enough in a debate if you want your point to have any weight. If you're refusing to provide some hard evidence then you've made the point poorly and are not doing a terribly good job making a convincing arguement. IP rights are law so whether you agree with them or not does not justify breaking them or make it any less illegal.
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Warsmiths	Posted - 2010.11.28 09:30:00 - [64] Kinda reminds you of having a discussion with a donkey about Kevin Bacon being in Footloose doesn't it?
Perfection Tau Cuties Only.	Posted - 2010.11.28 09:33:00 - [65] Largest part of expenses for let's say gamedev or software development company is advertisement. You pay mostly for this product being sold to you. While actual development and printing as many DVD as needed are only a small fraction. 'Nuff said
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 09:50:00 - [66] Originally by: Wild Rho I'm afraid "common knowledge" without evidence isn't good enough in a debate if you want your point to have any weight. Hence why I chose a simple example, something which most people wouldn't need evidence to grasp. I suppose that was expecting too much. Originally by: Wild Rho If you're refusing to provide some hard evidence then you've made the point poorly and are not doing a terribly good job making a convincing arguement. This point should not have needed hard evidence. Originally by: Wild Rho IP rights are law so whether you agree with them or not does not justify breaking them or make it any less illegal. I never said it was legal. When it comes to justification however, that is usually based on morals, on what you consider right and wrong. So yes, disagreeing with them does justify breaking them.
Scorpionidae	Posted - 2010.11.28 09:56:00 - [67] Came in here hoping for Yarrr Pirates... Left dissapointed and upset cos of the mean OP. Quote: I usually ignore this forum because i find far too many tinfoil hats here. Scorpionidae
Wild Rho Amarr Sniggerdly	Posted - 2010.11.28 10:16:00 - [68] Originally by: So Sensational Hence why I chose a simple example, something which most people wouldn't need evidence to grasp. I suppose that was expecting too much. The example doesn't do anything to prove your point, actual evidence would. Throw insults around if you want but it still leaves you with a weak point. Originally by: So Sensational This point should not have needed hard evidence. Yes it does. Any time you make a general statement or apply "common knowledge" you need some facts to back it up. Originally by: So Sensational I never said it was legal. When it comes to justification however, that is usually based on morals, on what you consider right and wrong. So yes, disagreeing with them does justify breaking them. If you disagree with a law you can protest it and/or appeal to get it changed but it doesn't create a justification to ignore it any more than you can chose to ignore other laws.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 10:31:00 - [69] Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 10:33:48 Originally by: Wild Rho The example doesn't do anything to prove your point, actual evidence would. Throw insults around if you want but it still leaves you with a weak point. My point is that when it comes to piracy, there is a gain involved for the creators, hence the example. The only evidence I could provide is that the example is true and I honestly can't be arsed to look for evidence that human beings take pride in doing something well. Originally by: Wild Rho Yes it does. Any time you make a general statement or apply "common knowledge" you need some facts to back it up. In a serious debate at Harvard, yes. I approach these forums more like say, talking to a friend or a co-worker about a subject that we're both interested in. I don't walk over to my closet, put on a tie and pull out my facts book every time I hit the bookmark. Originally by: Wild Rho If you disagree with a law you can protest it and/or appeal to get it changed but it doesn't create a justification to ignore it any more than you can chose to ignore other laws. Any more? No. Just as much? For sure. For that same reason I sometimes, while riding a bicycle, cross the street when there's a red light.
Wild Rho Amarr Sniggerdly	Posted - 2010.11.28 11:06:00 - [70] Originally by: So Sensational My point is that when it comes to piracy, there is a gain involved for the creators, hence the example. The only evidence I could provide is that the example is true and I honestly can't be arsed to look for evidence that human beings take pride in doing something well. The gain you state doesn't pay the bills, put food on the table or help someone grow their business/career. The evidence you were asked to provide wasn't that people take pride in their works, it was that there are some who don't mind their work being pirated even though it's not provided for free. Originally by: So Sensational In a serious debate at Harvard, yes. I approach these forums more like say, talking to a friend or a co-worker about a subject that we're both interested in. I don't walk over to my closet, put on a tie and pull out my facts book every time I hit the bookmark. That's fair enough, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Originally by: So Sensational Any more? No. Just as much? For sure. For that same reason I sometimes, while riding a bicycle, cross the street when there's a red light. The difference being that riding your bike across the street in a red light doesn't have an impact on anyone (unless you cause an accident). Taking what someone else provides (copying or otherwise) without paying for it is taking away their financial gain for the time and effort they put into their work, this does impact someone.

So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 11:23:00 - [71] Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 11:25:39 Originally by: Wild Rho The gain you state doesn't pay the bills, put food on the table or help someone grow their business/career. The evidence you were asked to provide wasn't that people take pride in their works, it was that there are some who don't mind their work being pirated even though it's not provided for free. Nor did I claim it paid for anything. I have no idea why someone would ask me to provide that sort of evidence, and I cannot understand why that wouldn't be specified when suddenly brought up in a discussion about something quite different. Could it be because, as I've been saying, he failed miserably at reading my posts? Originally by: Wild Rho That's fair enough, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Cool. Originally by: Wild Rho The difference being that riding your bike across the street in a red light doesn't have an impact on anyone (unless you cause an accident). Taking what someone else provides (copying or otherwise) without paying for it is taking away their financial gain for the time and effort they put into their work, this does impact someone. Ah, and this would be the part which we already covered earlier. I don't take away anyone's financial gain when I download because I purchase as much as I can and download on top of that. This is the core argument of the music (Well, media I suppose) industry, the delusional idea that every download equals a lost transaction. See now if this was a serious debate, and I being the Pro representative, I'd now be bringing up the potential gains of being able to get your products out to potential costumers through piracy, customers who never would've known of said products otherwise. But then you'd go "OMGEVIDANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!" and we'd be on page 5 before we actually talk about the subject again.
Feilamya Pain Elemental	Posted - 2010.11.28 11:39:00 - [72] Originally by: Wild Rho The difference being that riding your bike across the street in a red light doesn't have an impact on anyone (unless you cause an accident). Taking what someone else provides (copying or otherwise) without paying for it is taking away their financial gain for the time and effort they put into their work, this does impact someone. While I agree with you on most points, the bolded part is wrong. Riding a bike is stealing, because you take away the financial gain of the car industry (and the petrol industry and all industries that depend on the former) for the time and effort they put into their work.
Wild Rho Amarr Sniggerdly	Posted - 2010.11.28 12:32:00 - [73] Originally by: So Sensational Nor did I claim it paid for anything. I have no idea why someone would ask me to provide that sort of evidence, and I cannot understand why that wouldn't be specified when suddenly brought up in a discussion about something quite different. Could it be because, as I've been saying, he failed miserably at reading my posts? I never asked you to show me evidence that pride or whatever paid the bills. I asked you to provide evidence that people who produce for profit are happy with being pirated. Originally by: So Sensational Ah, and this would be the part which we already covered earlier. I don't take away anyone's financial gain when I download because I purchase as much as I can and download on top of that. This is the core argument of the music (Well, media I suppose) industry, the delusional idea that every download equals a lost transaction. You'll need to be more clear about the bolded part. What is it you download on top of your purchases (things you can't afford / things not available etc)? Originally by: So Sensational See now if this was a serious debate, and I being the Pro representative, I'd now be bringing up the potential gains of being able to get your products out to potential costumers through piracy, customers who never would've known of said products otherwise. But then you'd go "OMGEVIDANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!" and we'd be on page 5 before we actually talk about the subject again. Well yeah, it's all well and good to say that all this stuff "could" happen or has the "potential" to happen but you need to actually show that its a real possibility or I could just counter argue that others "could" just pirate it the same way you have with a net gain of nothing for the producers. Then all that happens is we go back and forth all day making up hypothetical situations to support our arguments and ignore what's actually going on on the real world. Originally by: Feilamya Riding a bike is stealing, because you take away the financial gain of the car industry (and the petrol industry and all industries that depend on the former) for the time and effort they put into their work. Insane Troll Logic.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 12:51:00 - [74] Originally by: Wild Rho I never asked you to show me evidence that pride or whatever paid the bills. I asked you to provide evidence that people who produce for profit are happy with being pirated. And why would you (You = Michael?) do this? Have I claimed that this is the case? Originally by: Wild Rho You'll need to be more clear about the bolded part. What is it you download on top of your purchases (things you can't afford / things not available etc)? Both do apply I suppose, anything I can't get a hold of in a legal way. Like anyone else my funds are limited, I can only afford to spend so much and anything that doesn't make the cut gets downloaded. In theory, in reality I've never done anything illegal, especially not piracy, which is a horrible crime Originally by: Wild Rho Well yeah, it's all well and good to say that all this stuff "could" happen or has the "potential" to happen but you need to actually show that its a real possibility or I could just counter argue that others "could" just pirate it the same way you have with a net gain of nothing for the producers. Then all that happens is we go back and forth all day making up hypothetical situations to support our arguments and ignore what's actually going on on the real world. Sure, but lets say I make a reasonable argument. For example, having your song downloaded 1 million times exposes you to an audience. Parts of this audience might not have heard your song otherwise, parts of this audience might tell their friends about your song. To me this makes sense and is a very likely scenario. So you'll basically shout EVIDANCE and then ignore it completely? Or would you agree with me if I say that there's some free advertisement involved in piracy, and as such the creator does gain something from piracy? Notice that there can be gain and loss at the same time, I'm not saying that "piracy adds +5 dollars to our revenue stream" but that there's a positive aspect too. This is as opposed to Michael's statement that when I download "the creator gains nothing and I gain something", the whole purpose of the past 2 pages or so I thought.
Feilamya Pain Elemental	Posted - 2010.11.28 14:05:00 - [75] Originally by: Wild Rho Originally by: Feilamya Riding a bike is stealing, because you take away the financial gain of the car industry (and the petrol industry and all industries that depend on the former) for the time and effort they put into their work. Insane Troll Logic. Calling your own arguments "insane troll logic" won't make it easier to debunk them when they come right back at you. Maybe your opponents in this discussion can help you?
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.11.28 14:17:00 - [76] Quote: Every download is a lost sale Every download is free advertising. - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
Wild Rho Amarr Sniggerdly	Posted - 2010.11.28 15:12:00 - [77] Originally by: So Sensational And why would you (You = Michael?) do this? Have I claimed that this is the case? No we're not the same person although after re-reading what I typed I can see how you would ask that :P And yes, you said some people "probably" are ok with being pirated hence being asked to show some evidence for that (quote from your post on the second page): Originally by: So Sensational Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Do they still enjoy the idea that somebody is viewing or using their goods even though they receive nothing in kind for their work? Some probably do. Edit: Assuming that idea contains the example I gave you, the pride in their work. ^ tbh this part of the discussion part has been done to death and is just going in circles at this point. Originally by: So Sensational Both do apply I suppose, anything I can't get a hold of in a legal way. Like anyone else my funds are limited, I can only afford to spend so much and anything that doesn't make the cut gets downloaded. I can understand someone downloading something they'll never be able to purchase due to there being no other way to obtain it but not being able to afford it is no excuse. Originally by:* So Sensational In theory, in reality I've never done anything illegal, especially not piracy, which is a horrible crime No the law is pretty clear in this. Piracy is illegal no matter what the reason you chose to give or whether you agree with it. That said out of the many crimes in the world it's hardly the worst. Originally by:* So Sensational Sure, but lets say I make a reasonable argument. For example, having your song downloaded 1 million times exposes you to an audience. Parts of this audience might not have heard your song otherwise, parts of this audience might tell their friends about your song. To me this makes sense and is a very likely scenario. So you'll basically shout EVIDANCE and then ignore it completely? Or would you agree with me if I say that there's some free advertisement involved in piracy, and as such the creator does gain something from piracy? Notice that there can be gain and loss at the same time, I'm not saying that "piracy adds +5 dollars to our revenue stream" but that there's a positive aspect too. This is as opposed to Michael's statement that when I download "the creator gains nothing and I gain something", the whole purpose of the past 2 pages or so I thought. Of course I'm going to shout evidence, the situation described is nice but has that actually happened to anyone? And yes, piracy can give free advertising, I won't deny it but if it doesn't translate into an income the producers can use to keep going it doesn't matter.
Creepy CousinRoger	Posted - 2010.11.28 15:20:00 - [78] Originally by: Blane Xero Torrent is not Synonymous with Piracy, Illegal or Crime. Go educate yourself. Brb, adding ... The Pirate Bay ... Oh irony
Vogue Skynet Nexus	Posted - 2010.11.28 15:53:00 - [79] The internet is still a nirvana for free news, free videos, free this, free that. I used to buy lots of magazines about computers, cars, other stuff. Now I get it all from the internet. Now I can watch the TV I want and on demand. I loathe watching regular TV. It's so puerile now. The loss of advertising revenue has meant the quality of programming has gone down. Although In the UK the Sky satellitee TV is a very slick package with good stuff to choose from. You just have to pay for it. ..................................................
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Angry Dogs	Posted - 2010.11.28 16:28:00 - [80] Originally by: Crumplecorn Quote: Every download is a lost sale Every download is free advertising. Why buy it when you have it already?

Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.11.28 16:34:00 - [81] Originally by: baltec1 Why buy it when you have it already? Because some people buy things to own them or to support the creators, not because it is the only way they can get their hands on a copy. - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Angry Dogs	Posted - 2010.11.28 16:39:00 - [82] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: baltec1 Why buy it when you have it already? Because some people buy things to own them or to support the creators, not because it is the only way they can get their hands on a copy. You honestly belive that? Back at college most students just downloaded a copy just so they didn't have to pay for it. Same can be said for work, one guy downloads it and sells copies for 50p to everyone else. If people wanted to watch a film before buying it then they would make a night of it and go to the cinema.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.11.28 16:44:00 - [83] Originally by: baltec1 You honestly belive that? Belief doesn't come into it. It's a fact. - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Angry Dogs	Posted - 2010.11.28 16:48:00 - [84] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: baltec1 You honestly belive that? Belief doesn't come into it. It's a fact. I have yet to see this fact. As I said, at college and work most people just get a copy for free.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.11.28 16:55:00 - [85] Originally by: baltec1 I have yet to see this fact. As I said, at college and work most people just get a copy for free. Oh, well, if baltec1 hasn't seen it, it can't be true! - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
ceaon	Posted - 2010.11.28 16:56:00 - [86] Edited by: ceaon on 28/11/2010 16:56:33 why ppl never argue @ my post when i post on this thread i mean i was way way more controversial that the crap u talk Originally by: CCP Adida The male thread was locked because the discussion turned into transsexuals and man boobs.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Angry Dogs	Posted - 2010.11.28 17:02:00 - [87] Edited by: baltec1 on 28/11/2010 17:03:51 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: baltec1 I have yet to see this fact. As I said, at college and work most people just get a copy for free. Oh, well, if baltec1 hasn't seen it, it can't be true! It doesn't help to convince me when everybody who defends piracy fails to support their own arguements. It also doesnt help when just about everyone I know who does download films do so simply to avoid paying what they see as too much for movies they want.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.11.28 17:10:00 - [88] Originally by: baltec1 It also doesnt help when just about everyone I know who does download films do so simply to avoid paying what they see as too much for movies they want. Everyone I know downloads films and has impressive movie collections. In my case it's more TV box sets. I guess we just know different people. - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc.	Posted - 2010.11.28 17:59:00 - [89] Originally by: Izzy Lizzy Edited by: Izzy Lizzy on 28/11/2010 07:20:11 Anybody that believes in the legitimacy of copyright that enjoys listening to Bach should throw out all his music on principle. If he had lived under our draconian copyright laws we'd have never heard of him. Copyrights, patents, and IP law should all be abolished. I mean do you people seriously believe you can copyright an idea? There's not one invention in history that ever came from the idea of just one person. Invention and innovation happen as a result of people interacting with each other. Just take a look at the history of copyright. It originated as a tool for censorship. And patents are nothing more than trying to use the force of government to guarantee you get a ton of money at the expense of your competitor. Something society ultimately pays for in the form of higher prices for everything. And don't tell me that without patents no one would invent things. As if things weren't invented before the Patent Office existed. Patents don't provide incentive for people to make profits. They provide incentive for people to sue anyone that tries to compete with your beloved cash cow. You'd know that if you ever looked into patent law. I figured I would bump this back up since it is what this topic is really about. Slade :Signature Temporarily Disabled:
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2010.11.28 18:12:00 - [90] Originally by: Creepy CousinRoger Originally by: Blane Xero Torrent is not Synonymous with Piracy, Illegal or Crime. Go educate yourself. Brb, adding ... The Pirate Bay ... Oh irony TPB is the only website to ever produce hard statistics (During their trial) about the illegal:legal ratio of torrents. I seem to recall over half, close to 70%? of their torrents are legal. Game Over, Try Again? 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1... Bloop~ _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by: CCP Fallout Been there. Done that. Need antibiotics.

Kalle Demos Amarr Hysteria Nexus	Posted - 2010.11.28 18:37:00 - [91] Why do you women do this? I mean what good would it do and how does it benefit you from arguing on the internet (or RL for that matter), the effort put into convincing (and failing because everyone is so *****ed) another person that 'you are right*' should be used on something else. State your opinion, click reply, then go, if a person is against your rules the chances of him / her being convinced that you are right are slim and even if you did convince him he / she would never admit it. I have new respect for North Korea, freedom is something that clearly shouldnt be given to everyone Wikileaks, stealing or not? Even though they exploit data (for example they will show a pic of an apple on the floor and claim NATO was the cause of the apple being on the floor). How do you feel about them?
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Fyretracker Heavy Industries	Posted - 2010.11.28 18:55:00 - [92] Originally by: Kalle Demos Why do you women do this? I mean what good would it do and how does it benefit you from arguing on the internet (or RL for that matter), the effort put into convincing (and failing because everyone is so *****ed) another person that 'you are right*' should be used on something else. State your opinion, click reply, then go, if a person is against your rules the chances of him / her being convinced that you are right are slim and even if you did convince him he / she would never admit it. I have new respect for North Korea, freedom is something that clearly shouldnt be given to everyone Wikileaks, stealing or not? Even though they exploit data (for example they will show a pic of an apple on the floor and claim NATO was the cause of the apple being on the floor). How do you feel about them? yes but then Apple Computer will sue NATO and Wikileaks for the use of the image of the apple....(Don't think they are IP crazy, they once tried to sue NYC over the imagery used in their "Big Apple" adverts for tourism)
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2010.11.28 19:27:00 - [93] While the same country uses for copyright enforcement the same state apparatus that was originally intended for brown people who like to blow white people up because white people let women read and wear bikinis (19 men in caves they say), they are carrying our a DDOS on Wikileaks. If anyone here ever tried a DDOS attack on any website you would go down for more prison time than if you molested a kid. It's fun watching the leviathan state ripping at throats while it goes down. America is the new Soviet, the new National Socialist Germany, and everything the founders warned against. Let this be a lesson to the rest of you. Next time you have a fellow countryman who comes back from the US, perhaps from schooling here, talking it up about how great America is for our style of "democracy", you should know better now, seeing the end results. We don't have a Adolf, or a Stalin, or a Ill, or a Mao. We have millions of people like them who vote though. So when that friend or neighbor who has been here wants to make your country like ours, put that person in a sack and hit them with little clubs.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 19:48:00 - [94] Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 19:54:35 Originally by: Wild Rho And yes, you said some people "probably" are ok with being pirated hence being asked to show some evidence for that (quote from your post on the second page): A misunderstanding then, you see at first we were talking about the pride that you feel when doing quality work, he then brings up said idea (The one you quoted). I then assume that this idea includes the concept that we were actually discussing, the pride part. Hence the edit, to clarify that he was still talking about that and not throwing out a completely random question not relevant to anything I had said. Originally by: Wild Rho I can understand someone downloading something they'll never be able to purchase due to there being no other way to obtain it but not being able to afford it is no excuse. And they're not interchangeable? Not being able to pay for something means there's no other legal way to obtain it. Originally by: Wild Rho No the law is pretty clear in this. Piracy is illegal no matter what the reason you chose to give or whether you agree with it. That said out of the many crimes in the world it's hardly the worst. Yeah I was just making sure, in a semi-serious manner, that the CIA doesn't bash down my door. Originally by: Wild Rho Of course I'm going to shout evidence, the situation described is nice but has that actually happened to anyone? And yes, piracy can give free advertising, I won't deny it but if it doesn't translate into an income the producers can use to keep going it doesn't matter. Very well, that's the difference between me and you then. I guess I can simply accept an argument that makes sense to me, not as an absolute truth but enough to concede that (Had I been the one making the argument) "when you download the creators gain nothing, you gain something" isn't necessarily true. Originally by: Kalle Demos Why do you women do this? I mean what good would it do and how does it benefit you from arguing on the internet (or RL for that matter), the effort put into convincing (and failing because everyone is so *****ed) another person that 'you are right*' should be used on something else. Because it's fun?
Creepy CousinRoger	Posted - 2010.11.29 01:23:00 - [95] Originally by: Blane Xero Originally by: Creepy CousinRoger Originally by: Blane Xero Torrent is not Synonymous with Piracy, Illegal or Crime. Go educate yourself. Brb, adding ... The Pirate Bay ... Oh irony TPB is the only website to ever produce hard statistics (During their trial) about the illegal:legal ratio of torrents. I seem to recall over half, close to 70%? of their torrents are legal. Game Over, Try Again? 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1... Bloop~ Of course they don't doctor those numbers to fight their lawsuits Statistics can be easily made up, 63% of people know that.
Lady Skank Ban Evasion inc	Posted - 2010.11.29 01:38:00 - [96] I was walking around my town center last week and there was an artist with a small store and some stands with some hand painted water colours on display, I liked one of the pictures but he was asking to much for it and I didn't have the money to pay so when he was busy with a customer I took it. I don't feel bad about it because it was only paper which comes from trees and water colour paints are not expensive so its not really immoral and the law doesn't matter because laws are just thing wealthy and corrupt people make so "illegal" is just relative and its not like I would have ever actually paid for it anyway so me taking it didn't prevent me from buying it instead and now I have this artists beautiful painting on my wall where other people can see it and appreciate it.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2010.11.29 02:01:00 - [97] Originally by: Lady Skank I was walking around my town center last week and there was an artist with a small store and some stands with some hand painted water colours on display, I liked one of the pictures but he was asking to much for it and I didn't have the money to pay so when he was busy with a customer I took it. I don't feel bad about it because it was only paper which comes from trees and water colour paints are not expensive so its not really immoral and the law doesn't matter because laws are just thing wealthy and corrupt people make so "illegal" is just relative and its not like I would have ever actually paid for it anyway so me taking it didn't prevent me from buying it instead and now I have this artists beautiful painting on my wall where other people can see it and appreciate it. Except in your scenario, the artist no longer has his painting. This is nothing like "Piracy" since nobody loses anything when someone downloads something. You cannot lose "Potential Profit" anymore than anyone who doesn't win the lottery loses "Potential winnings". There is a very specific difference between a "losing" something and "not gaining" something. And my personal opinion is that unless something has been lost to someone, no real "Theft" has occurred. By complaining about not gaining something and calling it theft, companies only reveal their false sense of entitlement. Entitlement they have [rarely] earned. I find it funny that certain companies like EA are extremely vocal against piracy, whereas companies like Valve have very little issue with it.
Brusanan Beware of Carp General Tso's Alliance	Posted - 2010.11.29 03:21:00 - [98] Originally by: Lady Skank I was walking around my town center last week and there was an artist with a small store and some stands with some hand painted water colours on display, I liked one of the pictures but he was asking to much for it and I didn't have the money to pay so when he was busy with a customer I took it. I don't feel bad about it because it was only paper which comes from trees and water colour paints are not expensive so its not really immoral and the law doesn't matter because laws are just thing wealthy and corrupt people make so "illegal" is just relative and its not like I would have ever actually paid for it anyway so me taking it didn't prevent me from buying it instead and now I have this artists beautiful painting on my wall where other people can see it and appreciate it. Piracy is more like you walking into the store, making a perfect copy of a painting for yourself, and leaving the artist with the original to sell to someone else. The artist loses nothing but your service. ______
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.29 11:14:00 - [99] Originally by: Lady Skank I was walking around my town center last week and there was an artist with a small store and some stands with some hand painted water colours on display, I liked one of the pictures but he was asking to much for it and I didn't have the money to pay so when he was busy with a customer I made a perfect replica at no expense to the artist. I don't feel bad about it because it was only imaginary property, a concept, it's not really immoral and the law doesn't matter because laws aren't always perfect and up to date, it is just relative and its not like I would have ever actually paid for everything I perfectly replicate anyway but me taking it inspired me to possibly buy some paintings from an artist I would've never had the pleasure of knowing and now I have this artists beautiful painting on my wall where other people can see it and appreciate it. Fixed.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.11.29 13:14:00 - [100] Originally by: So Sensational Originally by: Lady Skank I was walking around my town center last week and there was an artist with a small store and some stands with some hand painted water colours on display, I liked one of the pictures but he was asking to much for it and I didn't have the money to pay so when he was busy with a customer I stood and looked at it a while so I would remember what it looked like. I don't feel bad about it because it was only imaginary property, a concept, it's not really immoral and the law doesn't matter because laws aren't always perfect and up to date, it is just relative and its not like I would have ever actually paid for every idea which enters my head anyway but my thinking about it inspired me to possibly buy some paintings from an artist I would've never had the pleasure of knowing and now I have the memory of this artists beautiful painting and I can tell other people about it. Fixed. Future-proofed. I for one welcome our upcoming copyright overlords. - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes

Isaac Apylon As Far As The eYe can see Chained Reactions	Posted - 2010.11.29 18:35:00 - [101] Came to topic expecting US snipers taking out Somalians at sea. Left disappointed. http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/
Cpt Placeholder	Posted - 2010.11.29 18:59:00 - [102] Copyright infringement =/= theft. The current copyright laws are harmful to their intended purpose. "Piracy" has served those purposes better and people can still make **** loads of cash even with the existence of "piracy".
Cikulisuy Amarr D00M. Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2010.11.29 19:10:00 - [103] piracy is killing music ;posts record profits; piracy is killing movies ;avatar earns billions in a week; mix tapes are going to kill music! etc (it's all total bull****) ~
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.11.29 21:29:00 - [104] I see pirated videogames as more of an extended demo. If I like it, I'll go out and buy it.
Tora Nevaal	Posted - 2010.11.29 22:15:00 - [105] By illegally downloading software I helped a terrorist get a fake passport. I helped a suicide bomber blow up a market. I helped get a politician assassinated. Hey, it's my body.... But seriously, yes I ILLEGALLY download software. It's wrong and I know it and I do it anyways. Why? Not because I can't afford it, but because I am so f-ing fed up with these draconian DRM programs that slow down my computer and destroy my disk drive. Now every time I want to play a game I have to type in the serial, have the cd in the drive, activate it online, have a full time internet connection to play single player, can only install the game 4 times for the rest of my life, be within 12 feet of my computer and send in my finger prints, blood sample and DNA. Screw that. I download the game and never have to worry about it again.
Ademaro Imre Caldari	Posted - 2010.11.29 22:19:00 - [106] Welcome to the "cloud."
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2010.11.29 22:31:00 - [107] I only get things when they're otherwise unobtainable by any other legal means like translated games from japan that will never get published here or emulated games no longer in production or playbility (PS1 PS2 games I cannot enjoy on the ps3 curse you sony!) And thanks to netflix i can now watch movies or videos I do or do not want to buy. But there are pirates who only go out to steal media then resell it as thier own to profit. These arent the same folks as free media groupies these are folks trying to sell you the same product with only them getting money instead of the companies that worked hard originally to make them. Free media groupies are just folks who wanna enjoy without overpaying the gouging some companies are quickly turning to lately though. This being a four way fight makes it entirely unfair to the most legitamate of the four sides though the customer as they have to not only suffer the cost of increased protection but having to deal with the imprisioned media and the methoods they go out of the way to deal with them. If netflix starts going to an accounter ownership system similar to steam though one can only imagine how much more enjoyable the media experince can be for people. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 1SEPT10
Zagdul Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2010.11.30 01:28:00 - [108] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Crumplecorn Quote: Every download is a lost sale Every download is free advertising. Why buy it when you have it already? This is actually how I operate. I never buy first, only in the food industry are you forced buy before try. If you're unsatisfied with the product, normally you're able to bring it to management and they'll help you by giving you the food on the house or a coupon to come back at another time. With music/games/movies... you're forced to buy and rarely, if ever are you able to return if you are unhappy. The worst part about the gaming industry is the new DRM they enforce on everything. I have the movie DVD's of every DVD I've enjoyed. I have hundreds. Every game I own I purchased. Same goes for music, just I don't keep CD's where instead I rip it all to my hard drive so when the CD gets scratched, I've got a backup of what I paid for. However, most of the music I've purchased, DVD's I've bought and games I've owned were downloaded via the web first without purchasing. Either a demo, or illegal methods, I tried before I was suckered into buying. Someone earlier in this thread said something about reviews not being enough or it being a risk to purchase etc.. Are you aware that reviews in "the industry" are given based on the old "scratch your back scratch mine" etc. Lets take games for example. A new console FPS is on it's way to the shelves, the company who produced this game also has a publisher ready to drop millions in advertising for said game. Now review sites live and survive off their banner time/sales so they need this money to stay alive. So, who do you think the publisher is going to pay the advertising money to? The site who gives the bad review or the one who accepts the money and bumps it up a notch? Whats my proof? My last job was running a review site. My income was based on publishers paying me for advertising space. The entertainment industry are becoming more thieves than the people who pirate. An example is ICE as they just stole a domain name from a person who runs a forum and a search engine. His claim is that he is not hosting or providing the "stolen" or "pirated" material. Yet, the masses are screaming with their torches and pitchforks to burn this guy at the stake. Where was the warrant? When was the owner of the site's constitutional rights exercised? Maximum signature size is 24,000 bytes. Spitfire
Zagdul Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2010.11.30 01:33:00 - [109] Edited by: Zagdul on 30/11/2010 01:33:29 Originally by: Lady Skank I was walking around my town center last week and there was an artist with a small store and some stands with some hand painted water colours on display, I liked one of the pictures but he was asking to much for it and I didn't have the money to pay so when he was busy with a customer I took it. I don't feel bad about it because it was only paper which comes from trees and water colour paints are not expensive so its not really immoral and the law doesn't matter because laws are just thing wealthy and corrupt people make so "illegal" is just relative and its not like I would have ever actually paid for it anyway so me taking it didn't prevent me from buying it instead and now I have this artists beautiful painting on my wall where other people can see it and appreciate it. This is a poor analogy. Here: I was walking around my town center last week and there was an artist with a small store and some stands with some hand painted water colours in boxes, I liked one of the pictures displayed on the box but the actual picture was in the box. I asked the artist to remove the picture and let me look at the picture, but he said no. So when I got home, I Googled the artist, found an image of it online and purchased a print of it for half of what he was selling the original for. His print is now on my wall and I'm happy and he still got paid. I just wanted to look at what I was buying before I bought it. Maximum signature size is 24,000 bytes. Spitfire
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.30 01:35:00 - [110] Originally by: Zagdul The entertainment industry are becoming more thieves than the people who pirate. An example is ICE as they just stole a domain name from a person who runs a forum and a search engine. His claim is that he is not hosting or providing the "stolen" or "pirated" material. Yet, the masses are screaming with their torches and pitchforks to burn this guy at the stake. Where was the warrant? When was the owner of the site's constitutional rights exercised? Funny you should mention that: http://rulingclass.wordpress.com/2010/11/28/the-background-dope-on-dhs-recent-seizure-of-domains/

Zagdul Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2010.11.30 01:50:00 - [111] Originally by: So Sensational Originally by: Zagdul The entertainment industry are becoming more thieves than the people who pirate. An example is ICE as they just stole a domain name from a person who runs a forum and a search engine. His claim is that he is not hosting or providing the "stolen" or "pirated" material. Yet, the masses are screaming with their torches and pitchforks to burn this guy at the stake. Where was the warrant? When was the owner of the site's constitutional rights exercised? Funny you should mention that: http://rulingclass.wordpress.com/2010/11/28/the-background-dope-on-dhs-recent-seizure-of-domains/ Wow, the plot thickens. I was just making a claim based off the links in the first post, the one you've provided shows proof that the owner of the torrent site was robbed of his domain. This company just stole this guys name basically. Help with an analogy on this one? A lot of people may not understand what domain hijacking is and why this dude was robbed. I am usually someone who believes that some liberties should be left to governments... I'm one of those people who think everyone should have an ID where officials can check it's validity etc... However, I don't believe in theft which is what this company has done here. I hope the guy takes this company to court and brings light to this. Maximum signature size is 24,000 bytes. Spitfire
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2010.11.30 02:05:00 - [112] Edited by: Blane Xero on 30/11/2010 02:16:49 Originally by: Zagdul Help with an analogy on this one? The analogy I've been using to explain what's going on with the DNS Seizures is something like this; Tourist [Internet Browser] asks locals [Domain-Name-System servers] for directions to his destination [IP address of domain]. Now, when a domain is Seized, the locals are being forced [By THE LAW!] to lie and give false directions. So, I guess, the dude is being robbed because; Tourists asks locals for directions to Burger King, locals instead give him directions to a McDonalds which stole all his Burger king branding. His website [Burger King] is being redirected to a false website [McDonalds], meaning he likely loses Ad Revenue [Sales], and any money he spent to purchase his Domain name [Branding]. Something like that anyway. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by: CCP Fallout Been there. Done that. Need antibiotics.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.11.30 02:26:00 - [113] Originally by: Blane Xero Something like that anyway. This analogy is very good, but would be better if it involved one or more cars. - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2010.11.30 02:31:00 - [114] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Blane Xero Something like that anyway. This analogy is very good, but would be better if it involved one or more cars. In that case; A man [Internet Browser] is looking to buy a new car. He asks the dealer [DNS Server] to show him a Porsche [Website]. The dealer brings out a BMW [False Website] with all of the Porsche branding on it [Domain name]. Better? _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by: CCP Fallout Been there. Done that. Need antibiotics.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2010.11.30 02:41:00 - [115] Originally by: Blane Xero Better? Perfect. - I wish I was a three foot tall doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes
Caldari Citizen20090217	Posted - 2010.11.30 05:21:00 - [116] I'll just leave this here... and this An authoritative source tells me piracy is wrong. Stop piracy
Lady Skank Ban Evasion inc	Posted - 2010.11.30 06:22:00 - [117] Originally by: So Sensational Originally by: Lady Skank I was walking around my town center last week and there was an artist with a small store and some stands with some hand painted water colours on display, I liked one of the pictures but he was asking to much for it and I didn't have the money to pay so when he was busy with a customer I made a perfect replica at no expense to the artist. I don't feel bad about it because it was only imaginary property, a concept, it's not really immoral and the law doesn't matter because laws aren't always perfect and up to date, it is just relative and its not like I would have ever actually paid for everything I perfectly replicate anyway but me taking it inspired me to possibly buy some paintings from an artist I would've never had the pleasure of knowing and now I have this artists beautiful painting on my wall where other people can see it and appreciate it. Feeling pretty good about what I had accomplished I decided I could do more so I made my own stall opposite the artists stall and made a pretty sign and called it the "painting bay" and then copied every single one of his paintings dozens of times over and then gave one away freely to anyone that wanted one, the artists stall is no longer there anymore though because people didn't buy enough of his paintings to earn him a living from his work so he had to get a job at Tescos Fixed. Fixed again.
Vmir Gallahasen Gallente United Mining And Distribution	Posted - 2010.11.30 08:23:00 - [118] Originally by: So Sensational Unless you disagree with IP rights, at which point it is no longer stealing. I just wanted to say, this is the stupidest thing I've seen yet. It's like saying I don't agree that red light means stop, so it's not illegal if I just keep on driving. The law is the law until the law is changed, okay? Alright, back to your bickering
ceaon	Posted - 2010.11.30 08:36:00 - [119] they should arrest and put on jail all ppl that download movies and MP3, so the systems collapse and the anarchy begins i know you want that, in the darker corner of your soul you have this desire Originally by: CCP Adida The male thread was locked because the discussion turned into transsexuals and man boobs.
Ak'athra J'ador Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2010.11.30 09:47:00 - [120] relax people, turns out they cant actually do what they want to do here is a noob friendly guide if you are afraid your favourite sites will go down You cant remove a site of the internet by deleting it from the dns servers (what they want to do). That's like saying you cant call someone, because his number is not in the phone-book. See the internet is a bit more user friendly, like the new phones, where you type in the name, not like the old phones, where you had to type in the number. What they want to do is remove the entries from the phone-book so when you enter the name there is no number, and you cant call They can do this, because instead of each of us having our own phone-book, we all share the same one...kinda Course if you know the number, you can simply type the number in manually, and still call. To end the metaphor instead of typing "www.google.com" you will have to type in googles IP address. course google probably wont go down... this shared phone-book is available here. type into the first field the name of the website, like "www.demonoid.com", and it will, like any other phone-book, give you the number "62.149.24.81". you can then paste this number into the browser and the same thing will happen as if you had entered www.demonoid.com if you want to know more about this google DNS. most people don't know about this, and once they eventually remove the sites from the "phone-book" most will be unable to reach them. also, depending on how things workout, servers in other countries might update, so just the US would actually "lose" the entries. Originally by: illford baker a cold chapter for who? the lawless individuals who steal everything they want because of their sense of entitlement. i for one welcome law to the internet, can there be a golden age in a lawless world? Yes but what gives the US the right to control who is and who is not in the dns? The main servers should be under UN control. Obama said he would hand the servers over to UN, but changed his mind. Also, torrent sites, like www.piratebay.com aren't involved in piracy. they don't actually have any of the files we download. they are just a broker. you come to them, and say...I need this, and they tell you who has it, and you can get it from them. when somebody needs something you have, they will tell him, and he will download it from you. so we, are the ones that upload and download stuff, not trackers. people get this impression they download stuff from piratebay, cause they download the torrent from piratebay. the torrent only included information about who has what you want, you then download stuff from them, and they from you. its a net and we all share. trackers just know who has what. so you cant legally prosecute trackers, they have not, legally, done anything wrong, you can however prosecute people who upload and download stuff...but you aren't going to get much from your regular person.

Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2010.11.30 11:31:00 - [121] Originally by: Ak'athra J'ador this shared phone-book is available here. type into the first field the name of the website, like "www.demonoid.com", and it will, like any other phone-book, give you the number "62.149.24.81". you can then paste this number into the browser and the same thing will happen as if you had entered www.demonoid.com Then, you can put the line; 62.149.24.81 demonoid.com in your hosts file at c:\windows\system32\drivers\etc and your computer will always look at the right place, even if they do hijack demonoid.com's domain name. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by: CCP Fallout Been there. Done that. Need antibiotics.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.30 15:58:00 - [122] Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen Originally by: So Sensational Unless you disagree with IP rights, at which point it is no longer stealing. I just wanted to say, this is the stupidest thing I've seen yet. It's like saying I don't agree that red light means stop, so it's not illegal if I just keep on driving. The law is the law until the law is changed, okay? Alright, back to your bickering Ah but I never said it wasn't illegal or breaking a law. I said it wasn't stealing, when you make a copy you do not take away the concept (The IP) from the creator.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.30 16:05:00 - [123] Originally by: Lady Skank Originally by: So Sensational Originally by: Lady Skank I was walking around my town center last week and there was an artist with a small store and some stands with some hand painted water colours on display, I liked one of the pictures but he was asking to much for it and I didn't have the money to pay so when he was busy with a customer I made a perfect replica at no expense to the artist. I don't feel bad about it because it was only imaginary property, a concept, it's not really immoral and the law doesn't matter because laws aren't always perfect and up to date, it is just relative and its not like I would have ever actually paid for everything I perfectly replicate anyway but me taking it inspired me to possibly buy some paintings from an artist I would've never had the pleasure of knowing and now I have this artists beautiful painting on my wall where other people can see it and appreciate it. Feeling pretty good about what I had accomplished I decided I could do more so I made my own stall opposite the artists stall and made a pretty sign and called it the "painting bay" and then copied every single one of his paintings dozens of times over and then gave one away freely to anyone that wanted one, the artists stall is no longer there anymore though because people didn't buy enough of his paintings to earn him a living from his work so he had to get a job at Tescos. He then decided to make a new painting and since the growth of the media industry is larger than ever he made a billion dollars during the opening weekend. Fixed. Fixed again. And once more.
Vogue Skynet Nexus	Posted - 2010.11.30 16:08:00 - [124] Watch on Bloomberg website the Gamechangers episode for Mark Zuckerburg. He was approached to do a social networking website. Then he started doing his own interpretation of a social networking website. As well as working on a social networking website for some rich ivy league lads who gave him the 'idea'. ..................................................
Ak'athra J'ador Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2010.11.30 16:14:00 - [125] Originally by: Blane Xero Originally by: Ak'athra J'ador this shared phone-book is available here. type into the first field the name of the website, like "www.demonoid.com", and it will, like any other phone-book, give you the number "62.149.24.81". you can then paste this number into the browser and the same thing will happen as if you had entered www.demonoid.com Then, you can put the line; 62.149.24.81 demonoid.com in your hosts file at c:\windows\system32\drivers\etc and your computer will always look at the right place, even if they do hijack demonoid.com's domain name. thanks, didn't know that
ceaon	Posted - 2010.11.30 20:23:00 - [126] solution to this much closer that you think http://torrentfreak.com/bittorrent-based-dns-to-counter-us-domain-seizures-101130/ geeks > :riaa drone: Originally by: CCP Adida The male thread was locked because the discussion turned into transsexuals and man boobs.
Vogue Skynet Nexus	Posted - 2010.11.30 20:39:00 - [127] Edited by: Vogue on 30/11/2010 20:47:24 ^^^^ That alternative DNS system could make spoofing easier. Like faked wow, ebay, banking web sites. And it could create a fracture on the internet. This service could be heavily promoted in countries that are somewhat deemed 'rogue states' by the USA. Or countries that want to do their own thing - China So far the internet has had a light touch governance by US based organisations. The United Nations has expressed an interest in having a greater say in the internet. But unfortunately despite the UN's idealistic rhertoric it is often tainted by corruption. This sort of initiative done in the name of 'Open -> Free' internet could easily fall into a vacuum of typical international vested interests. Which would fracture the internet domain name system into incoherent islands. The other threat to the internet is telcos with a byzantine mentality such as AT&T. Who want a two-tier internet. You pay extra for more bandwith for 'added value' service and products. This is just because telcos want to climb back up the value chain after falling down since the advent of the popular internet. ..................................................
ceaon	Posted - 2010.11.30 20:57:00 - [128] Originally by: Vogue And it could create a fracture on the internet. could care less, i am OK w/ that is get the job done Originally by: CCP Adida The male thread was locked because the discussion turned into transsexuals and man boobs.
Vmir Gallahasen Gallente United Mining And Distribution	Posted - 2010.11.30 23:06:00 - [129] Originally by: So Sensational I said it wasn't stealing, when you make a copy you do not take away the concept (The IP) from the creator. The stealing part isn't the IP itself. You don't actually own any of the copyrighted materials you buy. What you get is a license to utilize a copy of the material. That's why most everything (especially digital media, like software) has an End User License Agreement that grants you the right to use the material in a specific way. Originally by: Eve-Online EULA REQUIREMENTS TO PLAY To play EVE, you must: (i) purchase a license to the Software (this may be available with the purchase of a boxed version of the Game and/or from the EVE web site http://www.eveonline.com); [...]and (iv) comply with the EULA. This is a contract. The moment you've breached the contract (by not purchasing a license and therefore not complying with the EULA) you're on the wrong side of the law. What you've stolen from the IP holder(s) is the money s/he/they would have made if you had respected the law. Stealing IP is different and difficult. Stealing IP would be getting the source code to an unreleased game and then trying to release it before the developers under your own name as your own work.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2010.11.30 23:25:00 - [130] Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen Originally by: Eve-Online EULA REQUIREMENTS TO PLAY To play EVE, you must: (i) purchase a license to the Software (this may be available with the purchase of a boxed version of the Game and/or from the EVE web site http://www.eveonline.com); [...]and (iv) comply with the EULA. This is a contract. The moment you've breached the contract (by not purchasing a license and therefore not complying with the EULA) you're on the wrong side of the law. What you've stolen from the IP holder(s) is the money s/he/they would have made if you had respected the law. And as I've said somewhere in this thread, you cannot, under any condition, steal something from someone they did not have; you cannot steal "Potential" anything. Claiming someone steals potential profit, would be like a loser of the lottery claiming the winners stole his potential winnings. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by: CCP Fallout Been there. Done that. Need antibiotics.

So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.12.01 00:44:00 - [131] Originally by: Blane Xero Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen Originally by: Eve-Online EULA REQUIREMENTS TO PLAY To play EVE, you must: (i) purchase a license to the Software (this may be available with the purchase of a boxed version of the Game and/or from the EVE web site http://www.eveonline.com); [...]and (iv) comply with the EULA. This is a contract. The moment you've breached the contract (by not purchasing a license and therefore not complying with the EULA) you're on the wrong side of the law. What you've stolen from the IP holder(s) is the money s/he/they would have made if you had respected the law. And as I've said somewhere in this thread, you cannot, under any condition, steal something from someone they did not have; you cannot steal "Potential" anything. This. There's no theft involved in Piracy.
Xiu Ju	Posted - 2010.12.01 01:33:00 - [132] So what I'm hearing here is the US government is provoking the revival of IRC. Fine by me.
Wild Rho Amarr Sniggerdly	Posted - 2010.12.01 09:47:00 - [133] Originally by: Blane Xero Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen Originally by: Eve-Online EULA REQUIREMENTS TO PLAY To play EVE, you must: (i) purchase a license to the Software (this may be available with the purchase of a boxed version of the Game and/or from the EVE web site http://www.eveonline.com); [...]and (iv) comply with the EULA. This is a contract. The moment you've breached the contract (by not purchasing a license and therefore not complying with the EULA) you're on the wrong side of the law. What you've stolen from the IP holder(s) is the money s/he/they would have made if you had respected the law. And as I've said somewhere in this thread, you cannot, under any condition, steal something from someone they did not have; you cannot steal "Potential" anything. Claiming someone steals potential profit, would be like a loser of the lottery claiming the winners stole his potential winnings. No it isn't, you are stealing the profits / income of the producer by refusing to pay for what they provide (when it is not provided for free). The lottery is a false example as you enter it knowing you have (at best) poor odds of winning and you accept those conditions by choosing to take part in it anyway. No such condition exists when a producer creates something to be sold.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2010.12.01 14:06:00 - [134] Originally by: Wild Rho No it isn't, you are stealing the profits / income of the producer by refusing to pay for what they provide (when it is not provided for free). The lottery is a false example as you enter it knowing you have (at best) poor odds of winning and you accept those conditions by choosing to take part in it anyway. No such condition exists when a producer creates something to be sold. I'm sorry, what? So you mean to say that there is no risk to a company that their product might be a flop? Companies are right in the mentality that if they grind out product after product, without putting thought into it, they will all create a profit? _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008 Originally by: CCP Fallout Been there. Done that. Need antibiotics.
Wild Rho Amarr Sniggerdly	Posted - 2010.12.01 18:19:00 - [135] Edited by: Wild Rho on 01/12/2010 18:27:10 Originally by: Blane Xero Originally by: Wild Rho No it isn't, you are stealing the profits / income of the producer by refusing to pay for what they provide (when it is not provided for free). The lottery is a false example as you enter it knowing you have (at best) poor odds of winning and you accept those conditions by choosing to take part in it anyway. No such condition exists when a producer creates something to be sold. I'm sorry, what? So you mean to say that there is no risk to a company that their product might be a flop? Companies are right in the mentality that if they grind out product after product, without putting thought into it, they will all create a profit? The risk that their product might be a flop and not sell is not the same risk that their product is sound but people pirate it and thus they make no profit from it. The question of quality of the product/reward does not exist in the lottery example. If a company produces something that doesn't sell due to poor quality that is the fault of the company for not providing something people want, if someone decides to pirate it that means the producer created something that was of sufficient quality and the fault lies with the pirate who feels they are entitled to it for free instead of paying the producer.
Cpt Placeholder	Posted - 2010.12.01 19:03:00 - [136] Originally by: Wild Rho [...] if someone decides to pirate it that means the producer created something that was of sufficient quality [...] No, it means the advertising was sufficient to provoke interest.
Wild Rho Amarr Sniggerdly	Posted - 2010.12.01 20:26:00 - [137] Edited by: Wild Rho on 01/12/2010 20:32:36 Originally by: Cpt Placeholder Originally by: Wild Rho [...] if someone decides to pirate it that means the producer created something that was of sufficient quality [...] No, it means the advertising was sufficient to provoke interest. Doesn't matter, either by quality or advertising there is a demand created for the item. Saying you don't like the quality of something still doesn't suddenly make it alright to take it without paying for it, especially these days when it's far easier to research what you're buying or find trials, previews etc.
Tora Nevaal	Posted - 2010.12.01 21:10:00 - [138] What never ceases to amaze me is just how small of a percentage of people actually know anything about bittorent in the first place. The RIAA, MPAA etc make it out as if everyone between the age of 13 to 35 is illegally downloading and costing billions of dollars in profit. Where are they getting these numbers from??? Outside of us geeks, no one knows what the hell bittorent is. Most people I know are still using freekin' Limewire! Whenever I tell them about torrents, it's like this life altering revelation to them. These organizations that are out to stop the so called pirates are lucky that these sites haven't learned to market themselves better. How much would the RIAA pay not to have Demonoid or Piratebay release ONE commercial durring the Superbowl or World cup, showing the rest of the masses how to get whatever digital media they want for free?
Cpt Placeholder	Posted - 2010.12.01 22:20:00 - [139] Originally by: Wild Rho Saying you don't like the quality of something still doesn't suddenly make it alright to take it without paying for it, especially these days when it's far easier to research what you're buying or find trials, previews etc. Trials/Previews/Reviews tend to be biased towards the highest bidder. You're not taking, you're copying. Providing the same thing for free to everybody obviously hurts the owner's profit but I would argue that more than 90% of the downloaders would not buy the relevant item anyways. The "FREE" label has a huge effect on humans, there's a bigger difference between 0 and 1 than 1 and 10.
Wild Rho Amarr Sniggerdly	Posted - 2010.12.02 07:55:00 - [140] Originally by: Cpt Placeholder Trials/Previews/Reviews tend to be biased towards the highest bidder. Not really. Some are certainly biased - especially on the more popular game sites, however there are plenty of non biased review sites out there and there's word of mouth which is much easier to find these days (forums, video sites etc). Originally by: Cpt Placeholder You're not taking, you're copying. Providing the same thing for free to everybody obviously hurts the owner's profit It doesn't matter whether its called taking or copying, the end result is the same as you acknowledged. Originally by: Cpt Placeholder but I would argue that more than 90% of the downloaders would not buy the relevant item anyways. The "FREE" label has a huge effect on humans, there's a bigger difference between 0 and 1 than 1 and 10. The problem is you've just made that statistic up and I'd argue otherwise. Like alot of the reasons already given, saying you probably wouldn't have bought it anyway still doesn't justify pirating it.



Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.