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Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.11.29 20:50:00 - [1] Something that has bothered me for a long long time, is the fact that faction launchers are better than tech 2, yet faction turrets are worse. Can we possibly get a buff? It'd be balanced out since you won't be able to use tech 2 ammo....which often is more desirable for turrets than for launchers. Nobody uses faction turrets outside the battleship class, and even in the battleship class they're only used by noobs who haven't trained for tech 2 yet. A buff in order of higher damage modifiers, or maybe even on par with all-skills-5 tech 2 turrets but with added optimal/falloff/tracking/less fitting. Examples, all with same damage modifier as tech 2... Caldari navy railguns with increased optimal Sansha lasers with more tracking Serpentis blasters with even moar damage and/or increased base optimal/falloff Angel autocannons with more falloff Doing something with them like this wouldn't make them better in all situations, but at least they'd have a niche where they outperform tech 2. Though, they might need even more love after the shortrange tech 2 ammo buffs. The idea is to make them better than tech 2 when they're both firing tech 1 ammo, like in the case of the launchers. Oh, and fix phantasm/cruor/succubus/ashimmu FFS.
Anyura	Posted - 2010.11.29 21:20:00 - [2] I got killed by a 5/6 turret the other day. True story.
Target Painter	Posted - 2010.11.29 21:27:00 - [3] Originally by: Templar Dane snip I am a little bit saddened you managed to misspell both words in the title. That being said, I agree to an extent, given their rarity and cost, faction turrets should provide some meaningful advantage to offset their inability to use T2 ammo. The higher damage modifier alone is pointless because the spec skill boosts damage of T2 guns beyond that of faction. Making faction guns desirable in some way would go a long way to fixing a lot of otherwise mediocre LP stores.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2010.11.29 21:27:00 - [4] Originally by: Anyura I got killed by a 5/6 turret the other day. True story. I know, right? I can't admit to my corpmates when a fraction turret gets me. TBH though, all blasters are fraction turrets.
Guillame Herschel Gallente NME1	Posted - 2010.11.29 21:28:00 - [5] Faction turrets already have a higher base damage multiplier than T1 or T2 turrets. You must train the T2 turret specialist skill to IV to overcome the extra damage bonus of faction turrets. Nothing broken that I can see.
K Shade	Posted - 2010.11.29 21:29:00 - [6] Its just that t2 ammo is pretty terrible all around, with t2 turret ammo being a bit more useful in some situations. t2 missiles are utterly useless, hwoever.
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.11.29 21:35:00 - [7] Originally by: Guillame Herschel Faction turrets already have a higher base damage multiplier than T1 or T2 turrets. You must train the T2 turret specialist skill to IV to overcome the extra damage bonus of faction turrets. Nothing broken that I can see. When I say same damage multiplier, I am speaking about the damage multiplier with skills applied. With all skills maxed, a faction launcher has a faster rate of fire than a tech 2 launcher, though some of them are ****tier if memory serves. Faction turrets on the other hand, do less damage. So... faction launcher > tech 2 launcher But... tech 2 turret > faction turret Thus, as long as tech 2 ammo isn't involved, there is an imbalance. And for the clueless, the title is spelled incorrectly on purpose. Forum joke of old.
Matalino	Posted - 2010.11.29 22:16:00 - [8] Originally by: Templar Dane faction launcher > tech 2 launcher But... tech 2 turret > faction turret Therefore... turret != launcher This is just one of the many ways that turrets are different from launchers.
Guillame Herschel Gallente NME1	Posted - 2010.11.29 22:40:00 - [9] Originally by: Templar Dane When I say same damage multiplier, I am speaking about the damage multiplier with skills applied... Faction turrets on the other hand, do less damage. Yes, but only after you have trained the turret specialist skill past level 3. Before that, faction turrets have a higher damage multiplier than T2 turrets.
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.11.29 22:42:00 - [10] Originally by: Matalino Therefore... turret != launcher This is just one of the many ways that turrets are different from launchers. Faction turrets should be an option for pimping. As they are now, there is practically no reason to fit them to a ship. Not only can you not use tech 2 ammo for flexibility, but you're giving up dps in order to fit them. Pointless. Go get back in your tengu and grind some more missions...your turret envy is showing.

Guillame Herschel Gallente NME1	Posted - 2010.11.29 22:49:00 - [11] Originally by: Templar Dane Faction turrets should be an option for pimping. As they are now, there is practically no reason to fit them to a ship. Then don't fit them. And don't post forum questions just so you can tell people who bother to answer you that they are full of crap. Sheesh! Some people's children are RUDE.
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.11.29 22:58:00 - [12] Originally by: Guillame Herschel Originally by: Templar Dane Faction turrets should be an option for pimping. As they are now, there is practically no reason to fit them to a ship. Then don't fit them. And don't post forum questions just so you can tell people who bother to answer you that they are full of crap. Sheesh! Some people's children are RUDE. I did not come here seeking guidance, and I certainly wouldn't ask someone like you if I needed it. I don't fit them except for giggles, and nobody with decent skills would fit them either. They have tiny optimal/cap usage/etc benefits that are not worth the loss in dps in most cases.
Matalino	Posted - 2010.11.29 23:11:00 - [13] Originally by: Templar Dane Faction turrets should be an option for pimping. As they are now, there is practically no reason to fit them to a ship. Reasons to fit Faction turrets instead of Tech 2 Universal: - Much lower skill requirements - Longer overheating capacity Beam/Pulse Lasers: - Lower CPU requirement - Lower Capacitor usage Blasters/Railguns: - Lower PG requirements - Lower Capacitor usage - Longer Optimal Range (Caldari & Guristas Railguns) Autocannons/Artillery: - Lower CPU/PG requirements
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.11.29 23:19:00 - [14] Originally by: Matalino Originally by: Templar Dane Faction turrets should be an option for pimping. As they are now, there is practically no reason to fit them to a ship. Reasons to fit Faction turrets instead of Tech 2 Universal: - Much lower skill requirements - Longer overheating capacity Beam/Pulse Lasers: - Lower CPU requirement - Lower Capacitor usage Blasters/Railguns: - Lower PG requirements - Lower Capacitor usage - Longer Optimal Range (Caldari & Guristas Railguns) Autocannons/Artillery: - Lower CPU/PG requirements And in exchange for that they do less damage. Yet, launchers get a higher rate of fire and capacity. Turrets have the same drawback as the launchers, yet the launchers get a much more useful benefit.
Matalino	Posted - 2010.11.29 23:27:00 - [15] Originally by: Templar Dane I did not come here seeking guidance. Then you came to the wrong forum. Try Features and Ideas or Assembly Hall.
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.11.29 23:36:00 - [16] Originally by: Matalino Originally by: Templar Dane I did not come here seeking guidance. Then you came to the wrong forum. Try Features and Ideas or Assembly Hall. Nobody pays attention to those.
William Cooly Sol Enterprises	Posted - 2010.11.29 23:39:00 - [17] The faction turrets are working as intended. - I RETROLL FOR MAXIMUM DAMAGE.
Guillame Herschel Gallente NME1	Posted - 2010.11.30 00:24:00 - [18] Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 30/11/2010 00:26:11 Originally by: Templar Dane They have tiny optimal/cap usage/etc benefits that are not worth the loss in dps in most cases. 3 faction turrets that fit > 2 T2 turrets when the 3rd one won't fit. Try fitting an Arty Rapier, for example. I also notice you said "in most cases" which pretty much means you have no argument. No one has said faction turrets are in all cases better than T2. You previously said they were never worth it, but since you've retracted that, I'll just accept your concession. Originally by: Templar Dane Nobody pays attention to those. Translation: "I demand you pay attention to me, forum topics be damned."
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.11.30 02:16:00 - [19] Originally by: Guillame Herschel 3 faction turrets that fit > 2 T2 turrets when the 3rd one won't fit. Try fitting an Arty Rapier, for example. I also notice you said "in most cases" which pretty much means you have no argument. No one has said faction turrets are in all cases better than T2. You previously said they were never worth it, but since you've retracted that, I'll just accept your concession. Translation: "I demand you pay attention to me, forum topics be damned." This is an issue that comes up every couple of years. There is an imbalance. Caldari/guristas launchers fit just like tech 2, but are superior to tech 2 when firing tech 1 ammo. You want to shoehorn on a fit like you suggested? Guess what, grab a republic fleet launcher, they're easier to fit. Turrets though, if you want increased dps performance over tech 2 with tech 1 ammo, your only option is officer turrets. There is no sensible reason for this. If you disagree with that, you're just trolling, or are clueless.
Boinz Caldari Muffin Munchers	Posted - 2010.11.30 02:49:00 - [20] Edited by: Boinz on 30/11/2010 02:51:55 Id take t2 launchers over faction ones any day of the week, and Im pretty sure a lot of people would do the same. Do everyone a favour, step away from the computer and dont post again. Also you must be smoking something intense My tengu with t2 launcehrs + fury = 680 dps With CN + cn ammo = 619 Originally by: CCP Oveur Guess what I'm wearing.

Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.11.30 03:48:00 - [21] Originally by: Boinz Edited by: Boinz on 30/11/2010 02:51:55 Id take t2 launchers over faction ones any day of the week, and Im pretty sure a lot of people would do the same. Do everyone a favour, step away from the computer and dont post again. Also you must be smoking something intense My tengu with t2 launcehrs + fury = 680 dps With CN + cn ammo = 619 Because all that matters is the dps quote in EFT, amiright?
Widemouth Deepthroat	Posted - 2010.11.30 08:13:00 - [22] Faction launchers are only better if you use a noob fit raven with ccc rigs or if you have more isk than sp. There are many faction items which are same/worse stats than T2 except for fitting reqs. Set yourself on fire at fanfest and maybe CCP will change this for you.
AstarothPrime	Posted - 2010.11.30 10:45:00 - [23] Originally by: K Shade t2 missiles are utterly useless, hwoever. ooooo reeeaaaaly? Lets compare scourge and fury variant heavy missile... 150 vs 192 damage normal + normal launchers meta 4: 25% bonus from ship 10% bonus from upgrades 15% from ROF 237.1875 dmg / missile fury: same as normal + 10% specialization 333.96 dmg / missile 41% better damage Tradeoff: lower velocity and higher exp radius which can be compensated by traning 2 skills to lev IV when you can shoot cruisers with great damage. Ok frigates = problem, dont see too much fuss about that anyways since - drones exist and are eager to pop those. . Higher sig radius? U must be kidding me - 2 shield extenders and 3 rigs on my caldari vessel means that only thing ship is weaker against is -> capital class weapons. And it costs 1/3 faction missile... For pvp use faction. Period. I.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.11.30 11:18:00 - [24] whats a turrent?
XxCirke LinexX	Posted - 2010.11.30 12:24:00 - [25] hehe... he said fraction.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2010.11.30 12:38:00 - [26] Guys. Guys. Fraction Turrents are serious business.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2010.11.30 12:45:00 - [27] did he mean torrent possibly? Torrents are evil, said US authorities.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2010.11.30 12:56:00 - [28] Evil fractions perhaps? I had a strict math teacher in high school.... used to throw chalk at people.....
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2010.11.30 13:55:00 - [29] Faction launchers are niche, and not useful in most cases. T2 ammo is too important to give up for a tiny bit more RoF. You won't catch an experienced Tengu pilot who doesn't use Furies, a Golem pilot who doesn't use Javs, etc (basically anything that uses non-guided missiles is required to have T2 specialization trained). The only time anyone uses faction is cruise launchers on a CNR. Oh yeah, about my sig... you have now read it.
Matalino	Posted - 2010.11.30 16:12:00 - [30] c Originally by: Templar Dane Originally by: Matalino Originally by: Templar Dane I did not come here seeking guidance. Then you came to the wrong forum. Try Features and Ideas or Assembly Hall. Nobody pays attention to those. 3600 posts in the crowd sourcing thread is an obvious indication that nobody pays attention to that forum. The list of items implemented from that forum in the winter expansion is another indication that nobody pays attention to that forum. It is possible that nobody pays attention to you in that forum, but that would be an indication that nobody cares about this issue, rather than anything personal about you. PS - If you do start a thread in that forum, I would suggest using "faction turrets" in the title rather than "fraction turrents", it would give you a slightly higher chance of being taken seriously.

James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2010.11.30 16:52:00 - [31] Originally by: AstarothPrime Originally by: K Shade t2 missiles are utterly useless, hwoever. ooooo reeeaaaaly? Lets compare scourge and fury variant heavy missile... 150 vs 192 damage normal + normal launchers meta 4: 25% bonus from ship 10% bonus from upgrades 15% from ROF 237.1875 dmg / missile fury: same as normal + 10% specialization 333.96 dmg / missile 41% better damage Tradeoff: lower velocity and higher exp radius which can be compensated by traning 2 skills to lev IV when you can shoot cruisers with great damage. Ok frigates = problem, dont see too much fuss about that anyways since - drones exist and are eager to pop those. . Higher sig radius? U must be kidding me - 2 shield extenders and 3 rigs on my caldari vessel means that only thing ship is weaker against is -> capital class weapons. And it costs 1/3 faction missile... For pvp use faction. Period. I. You seem to be propagating the myth that specialization applies to the missile. This is not so - it's applies to the launcher, regardless of which ammo. However, Fury/Rage missiles are worth using. Not always, but they enough that I take them in my hold PvPing. (Actually, rage torps aren't often, but others are). Precision/Javelin are utter rubbish though. Precisions almost never do more damage than faction, despite their better stats, because they fundamentally do less damage - the only time they start to overtake faction is when they're both doing absurdly little to your target. Javelin, similarly. +50% range on your short range weapon is vaguely useful. It means ... well, basically a launcher gets a similar option as a turret - to trade down damage. This rarely happens on turret ships, for a reason - reload times being what they are, you don't see many people using anything other than short range ammo, and then swapping to T2 (null etc) because then it's considerably longer range. (2.6+6.3 on antimatter -> 5.6+7.8 on null is a considerable step up) However, that's entirely negated by the fact that javelin missiles slow you down, making them basically worthless - you do poor damage with a little more range, but make it easier for someone else to close that range, and rip your face off.
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2010.11.30 17:06:00 - [32] Edited by: Templar Dane on 30/11/2010 17:06:34 Originally by: Matalino It is possible that nobody pays attention to you in that forum, but that would be an indication that nobody cares about this issue, rather than anything personal about you. I dare you to find a single post made by me on this subject, or probably any other subject in those subforums. S&M on the other hand, sees more traffic and by more individuals. Originally by: Matalino PS - If you do start a thread in that forum, I would suggest using "faction turrets" in the title rather than "fraction turrents", it would give you a slightly higher chance of being taken seriously. Originally by: Templar Dane And for the clueless, the title is spelled incorrectly on purpose. Forum joke of old.
Gecko O'Bac Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2010.11.30 17:12:00 - [33] Originally by: K Shade Its just that t2 ammo is pretty terrible all around, with t2 turret ammo being a bit more useful in some situations. t2 missiles are utterly useless, hwoever. My rage HAMs and fury HMs would like a word with you. Probably my rage Torps as well.
Dr Nefarius	Posted - 2010.11.30 17:19:00 - [34] Just unless it hasn't already been said: Give them same damage as t2 (with lvl 5 spec skill), and also same range, tracking, cap usage. Give them very slightly better fitting stats.
Remanent	Posted - 2010.11.30 20:57:00 - [35] heh. fraction.


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