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How many Drakes must die before CCP bring balance?

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cedeon	Posted - 2010.12.02 01:35:00 - [1] So the new expansion just hit and normally its about this time where my EVE excitement is re-kindled.... However following a day of sov warfare, I feel bummed and officially 'Draked-out' to the point i have to rant on the forums to try to save my precious EVE experience! Anyway we had many fights today, both sides fleet compositions had >75% of one ship, the oh-so cheap Drake and as usual everyone slugged it out with shield logistics creating a pure numbers game with every last morsel of ingineuity consumed in a big blob of auto-repeat boredom. fun. This happens often in nullsec and the natural result of this is hours of discussions with corpies on how CCP should balance this game/ fix/ tweak etc etc... well after 3 hours of discussions we came to the conclusion that i think CCP should have come to regarding the drake problem (Yes it really IS a problem if you are like me and like more than one cereal!) so i thought i should share it and put it up to the flame test with you guys! :) So... Heres the problem as far as im concerned, with the drake/logi fleet.. and that is its ISK effectiveness has no counter... its entirely unbalanced because the main counter to this fleet, the armor hac / logi fleet is order of magnitude more expensive per pilot. Anyway so after hours of discussing various ways to nerf the drake to make eve more balanced it became apparent to us that EVE already has the perfect system in place for this balance: Insurance. So my main question is: Why did CCP create such a rubbish 'fix' for the insurance, and is CCP evaluating the affect this last change has had on eve gameplay?. If it was down to me we would give HACs a HUGE insurance buff to bring them inline with the cheapness of BC's but im guessing there are economical reasons for this? Anyway ... Drake blobs need to be sorted out ASAP imo they make the game hella boring and sucessful counters should not be more expensive. EVE needs to be balanced. cedeon
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.12.02 01:42:00 - [2] The biggest thing going for Drake is the shield recharge rate. If that was halfed, it wouldn't be that much more overpowered than other BC. Also, for some reason CCP decided that shield tanking should be 2x more effective than armor tanking. I understand that shield tanks sacrifice valuable EW slots, but still, I'd think a 1.5x difference would have been more reasonable. With high end faction gear the imbalance between shield and armor tanking is even greater I don't believe that modifying insurance would change anything as far as Drake's power in PvP goes.
William Cooly Sol Enterprises	Posted - 2010.12.02 01:43:00 - [3] I was expecting another blatantly ret*rded "buff Drakes!" thread, but instead I found something that makes sense. Am leaving disappoint, good luck with CCP. - I troll stupid people.
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.12.02 01:48:00 - [4] Originally by: Ephemeron The biggest thing going for Drake is the shield recharge rate. If that was halfed, it wouldn't be that much more overpowered than other BC. Also, for some reason CCP decided that shield tanking should be 2x more effective than armor tanking. I understand that shield tanks sacrifice valuable EW slots, but still, I'd think a 1.5x difference would have been more reasonable. With high end faction gear the imbalance between shield and armor tanking is even greater I don't believe that modifying insurance would change anything as far as Drake's power in PvP goes. in combination with the scimitars the resists are way more valuable in (large) fleet fights. but it might be just me. for small gang or solo pvp the drake is perfectly balanced.
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.12.02 01:48:00 - [5] Just got Heavy II's now haz Fleet Drake On Topic what ship would be Caldari's new Fleet Ship. Because when it is gone it is ganna look very Ammarish out there. -- I am now on a Crusade to Fix the Omen! For Great Justice!
iKill Giants The David Project	Posted - 2010.12.02 01:53:00 - [6] Originally by: Alara IonStorm Just got Heavy II's now haz Fleet Drake On Topic what ship would be Caldari's new Fleet Ship. Because when it is gone it is ganna look very Ammarish out there. I would imagine that, if they were to decrease the usefulness of Drakes in warfare, they would also have been persuaded into increasing the power of Caldari turret ships, such as the Rokh, either directly or with a modification to Hybrid Turrets. --------- People always ask me for my Rupture fit after I blow up their Abaddon.
MrDiao	Posted - 2010.12.02 02:00:00 - [7] Drake is an anti-BS battlecruiser, anti-hac high-precision DPH dealer, anti-frigate missile platform, and bomb-free highspeed buffer brick. One ship one fitting for all roaming, pos smashing and capital fight.
Pesets The Hunt Club	Posted - 2010.12.02 02:36:00 - [8] Edited by: Pesets on 02/12/2010 02:35:59 Originally by: Ephemeron The biggest thing going for Drake is the shield recharge rate. If that was halfed, it wouldn't be that much more overpowered than other BC. That's for pve. For fleet pvp, the most important thing is the huge buffer with +25% resist bonus across the board, which makes it very hard to kill a given ship before the logistics can rep it back up. Although i suppose the recharge rate could be a secondary factor under extreme lag, when various game mechanics get slowed down unevenly (module lag reduces dps, but recharge rate stays the same).
Infinity Ziona Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2010.12.02 02:52:00 - [9] More insurance? -1. Sig --- Quote: Originally by Oveur: High security empire space is supposed to be quite safe. ... That's the whole point of high security.
Misanthra	Posted - 2010.12.02 03:13:00 - [10] T2 insurance is fine....this the only way to make pvp cost anything since. T1 cruisers are crap performance but cheap. Lost many on suicide roams, it was fun. cheap death, decent insurance and light ratting bought new fittings in no time at all. Fleets could blot out the sun with these things at little cost at. But they kind of suck so this doesn't happen much anymore. Move up to t2 like hacs which aren't inusred well, nor have they been reimbursable ships anywhere I have been...and it starts to hit the wallet with every loss. You kill say 4 people from a hac roam in your hood...I will almost guarantee one of those 4 is not very rich and will be down a few days ratting to buy and refit a new hac. Means on tomorrow's hac roam...be 1 less person on it. If better insured...man you'd have suicide hac roams all over. And in empire....jita/rens/dodixie/etc and the mission hubs would be killing sprees. With vultures in the new noctis having wars over the salvage lol. Mission ganking...way op with better insured hacs. Now who would care about that the hardcore pvp or death people might ask? If you make any money off of t3 production as a sideline...its drying up bit since there goes the empire t3 sales (why fly em jsut to be manhandled by better insured hacs). LP items sales or faction drops from ca's and such...market would die (gank fit stabber replaced with gank fit vaga...who would run anything more than t2). Or if a ganker...it would be the end of your good money. At some point most runners would jsut run plain ole t2 fits (they do work, faction jsut takes time off the missions). You lose 4 mil in fittings on the concording, get 4 mil in fittings off the ship you killed...your only chance at profit is good salvage. Not happening with the CNR's and other faction BS's...plain ole t1 salvage. drake is fine...fix hybrids for caldari. Caldari pilots, its not like they have choice. lolrox you take a dps hit (lolrox is range only bonus) and a tank hit (less shieid ehp stock) to get tracking issues and cap reliant weapons systems (and for added pleasure...better the ammo, more it sucks the cap dry) . If you flew caldari....would you fly lolrox over drake? Its not like minny where cyclone or cane are both decent choices.
Alias 6322A	Posted - 2010.12.02 04:52:00 - [11] Why screw with insurance? If you want the drake more expensive to bring other ships into competition, just adjust its mineral value. The ship is powerful, tanks well, and works well...which means it must have state-of-the-art (granted Tech I) structure: so it must cost lots of minerals, right? Look at the massive price differences between battleships for the same race for example: a Hyperion requires a lot more minerals than Domi and Mega because of its larger stats, particularly shield/armor/structure values (among other things). If the drake performs so well, increase the mineral cost of production. This does not nerf the ship, it doesn't even make it less popular. Actually, it just brings it into line with the rest of the market. IF the ship costs more, the other ships become more viable options. Drakes are great, but they aren't invincible and I personally don't think they need to be nerfed (I don't even fly them because missiles are boring. I WANT MISSILE TURRETS ON SHIPS!)
Vardath	Posted - 2010.12.02 06:09:00 - [12] Whatever else the drake may be, it's main feature in my eyes is it's terrible and horrific ugliness. Overpowered? maybe, whatever, I will never use one.
Solid Prefekt Haven Front	Posted - 2010.12.02 06:27:00 - [13] Originally by: Ephemeron The biggest thing going for Drake is the shield recharge rate. If that was halfed, it wouldn't be that much more overpowered than other BC. If you completely removed shield recharging on the drake you still could not take it down in a drake fleet because of the shield logistics and its high shield resists. And the AHAC is not the counter to a drake fleet as the Drake fleet has twice the range and faster. Three things make the drake popular. Resists, Range, and Price. From a nerf standpoint you would need to remove the resists, remove the range, or jack up the price. Another way is to buff other ships to make them more appealing over the drake. That would create the least amount of tears.
Nemtar Nataal Demonic Retribution	Posted - 2010.12.02 08:53:00 - [14] Change the insurence on T1 ships, maybe scale it so that small T1 ships get a bigger retun on insurence then bigger T1 ships to favor new players. Im not 100% sure on the insurence coverage, but this is what im thinking. <BC get the usual 100% coverage > Cruiser gets a 60% coverage. That way BC and BS are favored equally on insurence, maybe even give BS a bigger ensurenc payout then BC could help. Implement changes that increse the fitting price of ships in general. T2 modules have basically become to cheep. What we loos today when we loos a T2 fittet BS is what we lost 3-4 years ago when we lost a T1 fittet BS. Im defenetly not saying that T2 prices should go up to 3-4 years ago, but small changes that increse fitting price by 100% is what im thinking, cause as it is today its way to cheep to loos a T2 fittet BS. You should be able to compare a T2 fittet BS loos with a T2 ship insurence payout, you only get like 20% return. And thats not even counting you can pick up all the loot...
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.12.02 08:56:00 - [15] If Drakes are fine in small-gang and solo situations, but are overpowered in laggy blobs with logistics everywhere, then the problem is the lag and the logistics, not the Drake.

CCP Fear	Posted - 2010.12.02 09:13:00 - [16] We are investigating this, but there is no set plan for it yet so I can't comment more than there are discussions and ideas floating around.

Kabaal S'sylistha Caldari Technomage Trilogy Comrades-Of-Two	Posted - 2010.12.02 09:24:00 - [17] Originally by: CCP Fear 42 That's what he meant. 42 drakes. Every 10 minutes. Also, an entire generation of firstborn children, and all the children born on February 29th in 2011. -More Pewpew, Less QQ-
Kireiina	Posted - 2010.12.02 09:24:00 - [18] Originally by: Solid Prefekt And the AHAC is not the counter to a drake fleet as the Drake fleet has twice the range and faster. Three things make the drake popular. Resists, Range, and Price. From a nerf standpoint you would need to remove the resists, remove the range, or jack up the price. Another way is to buff other ships to make them more appealing over the drake. That would create the least amount of tears. An AHAC is a fine counter to drakes given a decent FC capable of getting a close range warp in. The thing is they are a lot more expensive, skill intensive and complex to use. The Abaddons PL are currently using are a far superior drake counter and readily available. The main problem is not drakes, it's that logistics are very powerful and signature tanking ships plus bombers have invalidated a lot of battleship heavy approaches. As such you want a ship that is a decent chunk of EHP so it can be a good logistic target, can hit small signature / high speed targets and isn't too expensive if/when you do get bombed (shield drakes have fairly tragic signatures after all).
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.12.02 09:28:00 - [19] Originally by: CCP Fear We are investigating this, but there is no set plan for it yet so I can't comment more than there are discussions and ideas floating around. May I ask what exactly you are investigating about them and any idea's you have so far? -- I am now on a Crusade to Fix the Omen! For Great Justice!
bartos100	Posted - 2010.12.02 09:36:00 - [20] why is everyone saying that the drake is overpowered in pvp i still remember that when i started playing the drake was called ** for pvp and as far as i know nothing changed to the drake can someone explain to me how the drake went from ** in pvp to overpowered without any changes to the ship ?????
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.02 09:47:00 - [21] If there is any problem it is lag. But drakes without significant lag are counterable fine, just grab a bunch of amarr BS, preferably baddons, and kill the drakes without problems. Obviously it is however a problem there are ships that are not amarr and are usable in fleet fights. And having them being minnie or gallente is one thing, but imagine the horror with caldari having usefull fleet ships.
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.12.02 09:54:00 - [22] Originally by: bartos100 why is everyone saying that the drake is overpowered in pvp i still remember that when i started playing the drake was called ** for pvp and as far as i know nothing changed to the drake can someone explain to me how the drake went from ** in pvp to overpowered without any changes to the ship ????? Basically People realized that Heavy Missiles could get 350 to 400 DPS with Navy Ammo at a range of 70ish KM all with medium skill. Then they Realized it could tank 70-80 Thou at Medium skill and a resist tank was perfect for logi's. Then they realized that everyone and there mother had trained them unlike AHAC's or Battleships. Then everyone noticed they what they had was a Mid DPS, Long Range, Low Skill Heavy Tanked Logi Friendly Fleet Ship for 50mil ready to go and Drake Blobs are born. Common Drake Blob Fit 7 Heavy Missile Launcher 1 Small Neut 1 Large Sheild Extender 2 Invulns 1 Micro Warp Drive 2 Target Painter 1 Warp Disruptor 1 DCU 3 BCU 3 CDFE 5 Warrior II's And you got a your cheap fleet. -- I am now on a Crusade to Fix the Omen! For Great Justice!
Kai Yuen	Posted - 2010.12.02 10:11:00 - [23] Originally by: Alara IonStorm Basically People realized that Heavy Missiles could get 350 to 400 DPS with Navy Ammo at a range of 70ish KM all with medium skill. Then they Realized it could tank 70-80 Thou at Medium skill and a resist tank was perfect for logi's. Then they realized that everyone and there mother had trained them unlike AHAC's or Battleships. Then everyone noticed they what they had was a Mid DPS, Long Range, Low Skill Heavy Tanked Logi Friendly Fleet Ship for 50mil ready to go and Drake Blobs are born. Common Drake Blob Fit 7 Heavy Missile Launcher 1 Small Neut 1 Large Sheild Extender 2 Invulns 1 Micro Warp Drive 2 Target Painter 1 Warp Disruptor 1 DCU 3 BCU 3 CDFE 5 Warrior II's And you got a your cheap fleet. Hahahahaha. A: Wtb drake with 7 mids B: Wtb drake with enough CPU to fit 3 BCUs, LSE II, DC II, AND a warp disruptor. C: Learn to fly armor HACs Armor HACs always outperform drakes. They're faster, have smaller sig radii, and substantially large buffers, not mention they out DPS drakes. Drake DPS isn't insta, it's not an alpha damage like a sniper HAC gang. Missile DPS takes a while to apply itself. The further out you are the longer it takes, which means range doesn't always play to your advantage. The drake has two things going for it, tank and reliable, if not low, DPS. That's it. I can't even fathom why people blame blobs on drakes. Nerf drakes and they'll just blob you with something else. That's just very biased, very weak, very inaccurate logic. A better answer to the so called "drake problem" would be to buff battleships and make them useful again. Battleships are fat, slow, and expensive, especially when rigged. They're more or less useless in 0.0 now because they can't catch anything and they can't run from anything. Fix those and they'll be a perfectly viable counter against shield BC blobs again. Don't nerf bat the only Caldari ship worth flying.
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.12.02 10:22:00 - [24] Edited by: Alara IonStorm on 02/12/2010 10:26:20 Originally by: Kai Yuen Blah Blah Blah One Mistake, Blah Blah Blah armor HAC Wall-O Text Fine I miss typed the Painter. as for 3 BSU's, Fits fine with a little TLC. WTS Fitting Skills. 3x Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Invulnerability Field II V-M15 Braced Multispectral Shield Matrix Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Fleeting Warp Disruptor I 7x Heavy Missile Launcher II, CN Scourge 3x Medium Core Defence Field Extender I As for AHAC's they work fin for 2x cost and no insurence at a much higher skill. Drake Blobs are cheap effective and more people have trained the ship. And no I don't want it nerfed, It is the only Fleet Boat I have at my skill level. It will be a while before I cross Train AHAC and Cane's are more for small to medium gangs. -- I am now on a Crusade to Fix the Omen! For Great Justice!

CCP Fear	Posted - 2010.12.02 10:36:00 - [25] Originally by: Alara IonStorm Originally by: CCP Fear We are investigating this, but there is no set plan for it yet so I can't comment more than there are discussions and ideas floating around. May I ask what exactly you are investigating about them and any idea's you have so far? You can ask, but I can't comment right now.

Kai Yuen	Posted - 2010.12.02 10:36:00 - [26] Originally by: Alara IonStorm Blah Blah Blah More than One Mistake, Blah Blah Blah Drake whine Wall-O Text Funny how you put in a named invuln(fail), meta 4 LSE(fail), took off the neut(fail), AND put the most expensive target painter around on(fail) just to prove that your original post failed and you had to make up for it somehow. No one fits a drake that way. And yet armor HACs still happen to outperform drakes. Amazing, the more expensive ships win. Drake blobs are only drake blobs because they consist of drakes. Amazingly enough, you can blob with ANYTHING. I don't want the drake nerfed either. I'd rather see battleships be viable than drakes nerfed. People just have a problem with Caldari being PvP viable.
Alara IonStorm Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2010.12.02 10:52:00 - [27] Originally by: Kai Yuen Funny how you put in a named invuln(fail), meta 4 LSE(fail), took off the neut(fail), AND put the most expensive target painter around on(fail) just to prove that your original post failed and you had to make up for it somehow. No one fits a drake that way. 1. 6000EHP for 40DPS when in a blob with Logi's is not a big deal. They can only have one primary, that extra DPS lasts until you die. 2. Can fit with a Meta 1 Painter and if you have fleet tackle add second painter and throw on another Invun to your resist Tank 3. Nuet was a mistake and can only fit with non 3rd BCU Drake. Originally by: Kai Yuen And yet armor HACs still happen to outperform drakes. Amazing, the more expensive ships win. Drake blobs are only drake blobs because they consist of drakes. Amazingly enough, you can blob with ANYTHING. Yes more Expensive AHAC's still are great but the cost and skill difference between the two means newr players can get into one quickly. Originally by: Kai Yuen I don't want the drake nerfed either. I'd rather see battleships be viable than drakes nerfed. People just have a problem with Caldari being PvP viable. Netheir Do I and would love to see Sheild Battleships, HAC's and Capitals in large fights to. -- I am now on a Crusade to Fix the Omen! For Great Justice!
Nuts Nougat SniggWaffe GoonSwarm	Posted - 2010.12.02 10:53:00 - [28] Edited by: Nuts Nougat on 02/12/2010 10:54:05 Holy **** what is this, the sky is coming down, someone killed someone else with a drake. Good job, people. It only took you 5 years to figure out that drakes actually work well if you use them right. Cripes. Calm down and play, I'm pretty sure every drake blob will end up getting melted by some real gang eventually. Edit: If I wasn't clear enough, drakes do not need a nerf. ---
Kai Yuen	Posted - 2010.12.02 11:03:00 - [29] Originally by: Alara IonStorm 1. 6000EHP for 40DPS when in a blob with Logi's is not a big deal. They can only have one primary, that extra DPS lasts until you die. 2. Can fit with a Meta 1 Painter and if you have fleet tackle add second painter and throw on another Invun to your resist Tank 3. Nuet was a mistake and can only fit with non 3rd BCU Drake. Fine. Originally by: Alara IonStorm Netheir Do I and would love to see Sheild Battleships, HAC's and Capitals in large fights to. Shield battleships are even more rare than battleships in general. Shield battleships need the most work of all. Armor is so much better. For one thing, rails suck ass and so do cruise missiles. Combined with the lack of shield battleships in general this takes all Caldari battleships out of the picture, save the armor Scorpion. This shouldn't be the case. And now for a little Kiran rage... Originally by: CCP Fear You can ask, but I can't comment right now. Hey CCP Fear, I have a question for you. Why is it that this little thread is less than a page long and gets your immediate attention yet the THREE hybrid balance threads I was kind enough to move to the front page for you haven't gotten the same, even the one that's FIVE pages long. Care to elaborate on that? You couldn't even provide the same justice by at least acknowledging one of those threads with your presence and saying it was being looked at like you did here. Why is that?

CCP Fear	Posted - 2010.12.02 11:28:00 - [30] Originally by: Kai Yuen Hey CCP Fear, I have a question for you. Why is it that this little thread is less than a page long and gets your immediate attention yet the THREE hybrid balance threads I was kind enough to move to the front page for you haven't gotten the same, even the one that's FIVE pages long. Care to elaborate on that? You couldn't even provide the same justice by at least acknowledging one of those threads with your presence and saying it was being looked at like you did here. Why is that? I have read them, but I have nothing to add to those threads yet. Simple as that. Just because I, or any other dev, haven't chimed in on a thread, doesn't mean it is being ignored. We just don't have much to say about it yet.


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