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Is it acceptable to pay off debt via selling a character?

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Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente Swift Redemption	Posted - 2010.12.02 08:28:00 - [1] So I'm feeling a little eve burnout, maybe it's just a bad day, maybe I'm ready to go jump in front of a bus. I figure I can pay off my debt in a few months if i just highsec farm farm farm, but I also have a 50m sp character that I could potentially save some time paying off my debt by selling (once I reach such time as I could guarantee a sale of sufficient amount to cover the remaining debt). What does MD think of the concept of ending your debts by selling your main and paying them from a faceless alt?
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.12.02 09:01:00 - [2] no problem - just make sure to make a prominent post in MD about the ownership change (if Dethmourne is the character in question). However, this might be a move you might really come to regret after a few weeks time, so consider carefully.
Tekota legion industries ltd Veni Vidi Vici Alliance	Posted - 2010.12.02 11:10:00 - [3] Don't see any particular MD e-honour probs so long as, already mentioned, a post is made to prevent new owner trading off your name. I suppose practically you'll find that future affairs may be a little trickier as only a subset of folks will remember that "Alt X" is really Deth - though arguably the folks that matter will be the ones that remember. Personally I tend to get something of an attachment to space pixels, particularly those that form my space face so I would likely regret selling my main (ie. Tek) to solve short term problems. How many accounts are you running? Rather than sell off a main, could you consolidate a char or two from one account into another and reduce your plex dependency per month - saving of c.380m per month could lessen the farming period required?
Chesty McJubblies Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2010.12.02 14:19:00 - [4] Suggestion: Remove the "new topic" button from everywhere apart from the list of topics section within a subforum. That'd save those with chronic hand/eye coordination some face.
Hivsen Ng	Posted - 2010.12.02 14:25:00 - [5] Doesn't matter what you do... In the end, ISK is ISK. There is no unethical means of gains in EVE. No such thing as blood money.
Tekota legion industries ltd Veni Vidi Vici Alliance	Posted - 2010.12.02 14:33:00 - [6] Originally by: Hivsen Ng There is no unethical means of gains in EVE. Interesting. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1422854&page=1#17
Carnagge	Posted - 2010.12.02 15:26:00 - [7] I think its wrong. you took the loans out on said x character. Now you want to sell said character and be like but this is me now? I dunno. I think all in all it just proves you had very poor decision making. You are solving your problem, its like using your last lifeline to stay afloat.
Anachronic	Posted - 2010.12.02 15:44:00 - [8] I would say it's a last resort, given that the debt for someone is really tied to their name and account I would say it is looked down on in the long run by your debtors. Just hang in there and only do this is it's a last resort ---------------------------- Outta my way...
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.12.02 15:46:00 - [9] After all those years playing MMO, one of the things I learned is to never rush a quit, a character delete or selling. You never know, one day you WILL regret it. Speaking of EvE, if you sell an important character everyone will easily see the sale as you declaring defeat at being capable of being profitable. This will cause you to be basically banned from future investments, since you won't have a character to sell any more and you did not prove being profitable in the past. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
lolyou	Posted - 2010.12.02 15:46:00 - [10] Lol ****ing finally.
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente Swift Redemption	Posted - 2010.12.02 15:48:00 - [11] Edited by: Dethmourne Silvermane on 02/12/2010 15:49:15 OP was mostly hypothetical - I don't see myself actually quitting eve anytime soon (although last night I could've seen it, yay for manic-depressive). I, too, attach great value to space pixels, and would find it difficult to let go of this particular set of pixels. EDIT: And I'd like to point out that it would only occur in the event I was quitting eve, so the "future investments" argument is basically invalid.
Taram Caldar Royal Black Watch Highlanders Warped Aggression	Posted - 2010.12.02 17:02:00 - [12] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha After all those years playing MMO, one of the things I learned is to never rush a quit, a character delete or selling. You never know, one day you WILL regret it. Speaking of EvE, if you sell an important character everyone will easily see the sale as you declaring defeat at being capable of being profitable. This will cause you to be basically banned from future investments, since you won't have a character to sell any more and you did not prove being profitable in the past. This Market Alerts Mailing List
Joe Starbreaker M. Corp	Posted - 2010.12.02 18:39:00 - [13] Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane What does MD think of the concept of ending your debts by selling your main and paying them from a faceless alt? If I were your creditor, I'd rather the debt were paid back, and at this point it would be far less important how you did it. Maybe I'd even buy you a Quafe to help ease the moral anguish you're going through. After receiving my money. ...
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.12.02 18:56:00 - [14] Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane I figure I can pay off my debt in a few months if i just highsec farm farm farm How big are your debts?
lolyou	Posted - 2010.12.02 19:18:00 - [15] Edited by: lolyou on 02/12/2010 19:18:01 He has some crackpot loan bussiness with like 1 customer for 1.5b at 5% and 12b in debt. He should just sell the character and not pay the loans back tbh
lolyou	Posted - 2010.12.02 19:23:00 - [16] I also have a vested interest in him getting rid of that character because I hate the portrait. Please pick something dif next time. I can't hang out in anyu of the trade channels because of you
Ave Volta Red Frog Freight Red-Frog	Posted - 2010.12.02 20:27:00 - [17] I'd say if you've had the character from the beginning, and it's your main who everybody knows, then the character is worth more than you'd get by selling it. imo you'd be taking a loss. And don't worry, you only have to live with that portrait till the new portrait system comes out. Is he wearing a Tie? Is that a salad bowl on his head? -------------------------------- chown -R us:us /yourbase
Berikath	Posted - 2010.12.02 20:34:00 - [18] Originally by: Carnagge I think its wrong. you took the loans out on said x character. Now you want to sell said character and be like but this is me now? I dunno. I think all in all it just proves you had very poor decision making. You are solving your problem, its like using your last lifeline to stay afloat. I disagree. Taking out debt, then selling character WITHOUT paying back? Yes, bad form; I'd say it's basically the same as doing a character xfer w/ a negative wallet. However, as long as all outstanding business is cleared basically at the time of sale (i.e., make sale, receive ISK, pay creditors, log off), I'd say it's kosher. That said, I would agree that doing so is probably not the best idea. Even if when you do it you fully intend to quit EVE permanently, there's nothing saying you won't change your mind sometime in the future and regret it. *** Wish list for PI: One-click input routing Copy product, inputs & outputs in factories *Launchpad upgrades: twice the space, twice the cost, half the hassle!
Spectre Wraith Darwin Inc.	Posted - 2010.12.02 21:15:00 - [19] Quote: EDIT: And I'd like to point out that it would only occur in the event I was quitting eve, so the "future investments" argument is basically invalid. Well if by that you mean you have no plans for any other future investment offerings, then it wouldn't matter. But this is exactly the kind of things investors look for when investing with someone. You seem to make alot of bad decisions (including this thread).
AnakieNine	Posted - 2010.12.02 21:28:00 - [20] Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane Man, I've got so many pre-sold at 600.. Not trolling, just wondering why the Noctis BPO sales haven't helped you close the debt gap and put you on a high and not a low?
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.12.02 21:58:00 - [21] Originally by: lolyou Edited by: lolyou on 02/12/2010 19:18:01 He has some crackpot loan bussiness with like 1 customer for 1.5b at 5% and 12b in debt. He should just sell the character and not pay the loans back tbh Hmm. Well I could always borrow money.
Machete Visor	Posted - 2010.12.02 22:02:00 - [22] frankly speaking, i am wondering why you would need to do that. I can cover all my debts with ISK on hand + inventory so it is just a matter of time for the inventory to sell. I would think your trading would let you do the same unless some of the money has gone to (a) other character purchases, (b) recreational items that have been destroyed or (c) lost in other investment schemes. Hard to believe if you took at 5B loan and did station trading you would ever have less than 5B readily at hand.
Kalrand GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.12.02 22:18:00 - [23] Originally by: Machete Visor frankly speaking, i am wondering why you would need to do that. I can cover all my debts with ISK on hand + inventory so it is just a matter of time for the inventory to sell. I would think your trading would let you do the same unless some of the money has gone to (a) other character purchases, (b) recreational items that have been destroyed or (c) lost in other investment schemes. Hard to believe if you took at 5B loan and did station trading you would ever have less than 5B readily at hand. He started a loan business, and really hasn't made many loans. He has been paying interest on the money he borrowed.
oldmanst4r Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.03 00:37:00 - [24] Edited by: oldmanst4r on 03/12/2010 00:38:48 I think it's absolutely acceptable, but I think you would regret it. Personally if your feeling burned out I would just casually station trade at a rate that allows you to make enough money to pay off your loans in a few months. Or start a faceless alt and scam in Jita, I find taking money from wealthy idiots to be both the**utic and profitable. Edit: lol @ filtering t h e r a p e u t i c ? Originally by:** CCP Shadow snip Castration successful. Shadow.
Luxotor Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.03 01:32:00 - [25] Originally by: Tekota Originally by: Hivsen Ng There is no unethical means of gains in EVE. Interesting. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1422854&page=1#17 Ouch. --- Make lowsec useful!
Cobalt Sixty Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2010.12.03 03:15:00 - [26] Edited by: Cobalt Sixty on 03/12/2010 03:19:01 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Speaking of EvE, if you sell an important character everyone will easily see the sale as you declaring defeat at being capable of being profitable. This will cause you to be basically banned from future investments, since you won't have a character to sell any more and you did not prove being profitable in the past. Yes? No? No, not in my opinion. A character is (again, in my own humble opinion) just an asset and "banning" people from activity in MD because they essentially relinquished that asset to pay back their investors and therefore remain in good odor with the community is - at least to me - an amazingly petty stance and not a little bit stupid at first glance. I mean, taking a personal hit to pay back investors? Why, the nerve of the man for trying to do the right thing by those who put their faith in him! Put another way, while it is certainly an unusual manner of achieving the necessary liquidity to resolve debt - I do not think it deserves such a harsh response. If MD intends to go about excluding those who fail but behave ethically when they do, MD will only get what it deserves.
Brock Nelson Caldari T2 Technologies Unlimited SRS.	Posted - 2010.12.03 03:25:00 - [27] THIS THREAD IS NOW AN AUCTION 1b for Deth No kill rights right? Originally by: Brock Nelson OP's question is translated as: Help, I'm a female stuck in a man's body, can Incarna help?
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente Swift Redemption	Posted - 2010.12.03 03:29:00 - [28] Originally by: Brock Nelson THIS THREAD IS NOW AN AUCTION 1b for Deth No kill rights right?
bryanbc Gallente Abyssal Heavy Industries SRS.	Posted - 2010.12.03 03:36:00 - [29] 1.1BILL!!!
RAW23	Posted - 2010.12.03 03:39:00 - [30] Originally by: bryanbc 1.1BILL!!! You're doing it wrong. the correct response is: 1000000000.01 And Deth, of course there is no problem selling your character (apart from the difficulties in picking up things later if that character was your MD face).
bryanbc Gallente Abyssal Heavy Industries SRS.	Posted - 2010.12.03 03:44:00 - [31] 1bill and 20 isk
Clown Pron	Posted - 2010.12.03 03:48:00 - [32] 17million
lolyou	Posted - 2010.12.03 04:01:00 - [33] 1.2b to buy you character. Self destruct his pod in Jita and biomass him. lol@u
Jenny Jihad Minmatar Republic Military Skool	Posted - 2010.12.03 04:59:00 - [34] Might as well give the people a show Dethmourne.
Hittings Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.03 05:21:00 - [35] So there is nothing wrong with actually selling your characters to clear debt.... so IRL that would be like lets just sell the wife to clear the debt.... lets sell the kid... I've been unsuccessful so take the character... I'm sorry I just don't buy that stance. I believe if you do that your basically removing yourself as a trustworthy individual. Same reason people don't get jobs because they have terrible credit scores these days... it all matters... Just my opinion.
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.12.03 07:07:00 - [36] Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 03/12/2010 07:07:22 Originally by: Hittings So there is nothing wrong with actually selling your characters to clear debt.... so IRL that would be like lets just sell the wife to clear the debt.... lets sell the kid... I've been unsuccessful so take the character... I'm sorry I just don't buy that stance. I believe if you do that your basically removing yourself as a trustworthy individual. Same reason people don't get jobs because they have terrible credit scores these days... it all matters... Just my opinion. you bought your wife for cash on the character bazaar? A character is just another piece of capital in EVE, same as a blueprint collection, a freighter, ... as such having a high SP character (and signaling the willingness to sell it if necessary) should improve your credit rating. Things were a bit different when selling a character had to involve a fee paid with RL cash to CCP (so people were imo too hesitant to ask defaulting borrowers to sell their character(s) to pay off the debt) but with the option to use PLEX for the transfer I see no reason to treat characters any different from any other peice of equipment you might have on your account.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.12.03 07:32:00 - [37] Originally by: Mme Pinkerton A character is just another piece of capital in EVE, same as a blueprint collection, a freighter, ... as such having a high SP character (and signaling the willingness to sell it if necessary) should improve your credit rating. Things were a bit different when selling a character had to involve a fee paid with RL cash to CCP (so people were imo too hesitant to ask defaulting borrowers to sell their character(s) to pay off the debt) but with the option to use PLEX for the transfer I see no reason to treat characters any different from any other peice of equipment you might have on your account. This. I've always treated my characters as assets, albeit very illiquid ones, and have always counted their value in my NAV. Partly this is down to buying my third and fourth characters with the money I raised for my first bond and not wanting to suddenly lose 6bil from my balance sheet but I don't see any reason why it shouldn't also apply to mains. Characters are assets and have values. They are not people, although they may be part of a perceived identity.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.12.03 10:53:00 - [38] Quote: A character is (again, in my own humble opinion) just an asset and "banning" people from activity in MD because they essentially relinquished that asset to pay back their investors and therefore remain in good odor with the community is - at least to me - an amazingly petty stance and not a little bit stupid at first glance. Quote: A character is just another piece of capital in EVE, same as a blueprint collection, a freighter I don't share the same opinion. Selling a character is not the same as selling THE character, THE brand of yourself. Sure, an alt is an asset blah blah but the signature character and face is: - Mere asset value - Brand plusvalence - Credibility plusvalence - Proven ability to earn income tied to a face The last 3 factors have an intangible but high value. Ignoring them is quite of a self hating approach. Sure, the immediate result is to close a debt, but the credibility going up? Not at all, it's like selling your own forniture, you don't do it unless you put yourself in really dire waters. This cannot happen in EvE unless you really borked something epic and investors will recall. Just imagine in a year Dethmourne decides to start a bond as faceless alt. They are prolly going to demand him an audit, and what would an auditor have to say about someone who sold his pants to close his debts, in a game where's HARD to be bankrupt? Quote: They are not people, although they may be part of a perceived identity. Exactly. If he wants to sell his main he parts with his identity, not just an asset. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Alain Kinsella Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.03 12:09:00 - [39] As someone who (normally) prefers to link my RL identity to my virtual ones (a throwback to my Uru/SL days), there is no way I could place a value on my Eve characters (at least the primary one anyway). That said, the points (both for and against) are pretty valid. In short it's going to depend on what you really want to do several months/years from now. [I work with backups, so I tend to think on those timescales.]
Hittings Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.03 13:55:00 - [40] Edited by: Hittings on 03/12/2010 13:57:47 I just completely disagree. Infact I find that because this thread was made, he is less likely to be successful in the short term on MD. Who wants to take loans out from the guy whom is claiming he's losing money....
Taram Caldar Royal Black Watch Highlanders Warped Aggression	Posted - 2010.12.03 14:04:00 - [41] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 03/12/2010 14:05:02 Just me... but there's no way in hell I'd ever sell Taram. I'm of like mind to VV on this one. If a pilot has to sell their main to get out of debt it absolutely has an impact on my perception of them as a player. Yes, they'll be reliable about paying off debt but the fact that they can't be profitable without giving up everything just to get out of debt will jade me against any future offering by them in future. It's not that I wouldn't trust them. It's that I wouldn't believe they could be profitable. Originally by: Hittings Edited by: Hittings on 03/12/2010 13:57:47 I just completely disagree. Infact I find that because this thread was made, he is less likely to be successful in the short term on MD. Who wants to take loans out from the guy whom is claiming he's losing money.... Exactly... ironically his savings & loan thread is like 5 posts down from this one right now. Market Alerts Mailing List
Machete Visor	Posted - 2010.12.03 14:34:00 - [42] Originally by: Kalrand Originally by: Machete Visor frankly speaking, i am wondering why you would need to do that. I can cover all my debts with ISK on hand + inventory so it is just a matter of time for the inventory to sell. I would think your trading would let you do the same unless some of the money has gone to (a) other character purchases, (b) recreational items that have been destroyed or (c) lost in other investment schemes. Hard to believe if you took at 5B loan and did station trading you would ever have less than 5B readily at hand. He started a loan business, and really hasn't made many loans. He has been paying interest on the money he borrowed. no way that his X% interest rate has eaten into his cash balance from raising the loan. That is absurd. 5% of 5B is what, 250M a month... it would take months before he'd be in cash flow trouble. He must've taken some of the ISK and lost it through other ways (flying shiny new ships, making bad loans, etc)
Apollo Russ	Posted - 2010.12.03 14:50:00 - [43] I myself beleive he lost his isk through SOMER.blink as he did often play it. In my opinion I think it is fine to sell a toon to pay a debt off. Before you make a thread to sell him make sure you use your MD face to post who your new main is.
Somerset Mahm Somer's Omnibus Exploration and Reclamation Cognitive Development	Posted - 2010.12.03 15:19:00 - [44] I wouldn't normally comment on Blink players' deposit habits, but I think I can make an exception this time. Deposit history for: Dethmourne Silvermane ISK deposited: 10,000,000 ISK Achievements: 39,000,000 ISK Complete. The man only plays trivia buttons to get his free ISK to play Blink with :P He's put in a total of 10M of his own ISK. --- SOMER Lotteries SOMER Blink - new! SOMER Escrow Services
Xaviar Onassis Gulfonodi Bay Fishing Club	Posted - 2010.12.03 17:00:00 - [45] How big are the debts, and under what terms? You'd possibly find that you'd have an easier time transferring to a new lender with your 50m sp intact, rather than selling up everything and have to start again from scratch...
Hittings Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.03 17:06:00 - [46] I think an audit might be in order. I doubt his profability. But in the end... its a loan...items for loan value... depends on if your giving collateral at 125% or 100%. 100% i wouldnt' care so much...
Jenny Jihad Minmatar Republic Military Skool	Posted - 2010.12.03 18:23:00 - [47] So although I haven't been paying to much attention to Dethmourne but I believe... The summary so far is: A stagnate savings and loan business along with a stupid amount of debt.. an isk infusion which is now gone . Bad businees decision coupled by a poor understanding of the game... (see so many noctis bpo's)... Looks like someone caught the MD bug and fancied themself a business man only to fail miserably and admit defeat in a semi-accidental posting in a shockingly humiliating manner, the thread of which turning into an auction for his character. With the highest bid at 1.2b .... to biomass him . Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Amarr Citizen 155 Nordar Innovations.	Posted - 2010.12.03 20:33:00 - [48] Edited by: Amarr Citizen 155 on 03/12/2010 20:37:44 Bah, it doesn't really matter whether he sells his main or not. You'll still be able to smell him from a mile away regardless of what character he's using! Seriously though, and no offense to you Deth, but is the Dethmourne Silvermane brand worth so much that it would really be a bad idea to sell it? If the answer is yes, then don't sell it. If the answer is no, then it's just another asset and if the price is right then you should move it. Edit: And holy **** Jenny, take your hand off the Smilies button.
lolyou	Posted - 2010.12.03 23:05:00 - [49] 23:04 3/12 bump lol@u
Compound Arbitrage	Posted - 2010.12.03 23:10:00 - [50] Ebank could learn a thing or two from this thread!
Cobalt Sixty Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2010.12.04 03:06:00 - [51] Well Vaerah, I guess we should perhaps agree to disagree. I suppose my perspective comes from the wider view that not all characters have a "brand" attached to them by their creator - though even in those instances where a brand may be said to exist I still consider that to be just a modifier to overall value of the asset (character). However, Quote: Ignoring them is quite of a self hating approach. As I've suggested, I see "brand", "credibility" and "proven ability" as just price modifiers - albeit ones which are generally quite difficult to quantify (in any way other than an arbitrary way) when setting a price. At the same time, these modifiers can be influenced by (for example) advanced disclosure of the sale to people who interact in-game with the character. Still difficult to quantify, as I've said. I don't think that the modifiers should be ignored, because quite obviously they can affect value and ignoring them could in turn risk reducing value if you don't figure them into the price - where they exist, that is. At the same time, I think that saying the act of ignoring them is "self hating" is just as silly as the act of ignoring them. If I undervalue an asset, I don't do it because I hate looking at myself in the mirror every morning. I do it because I was negligent in my practices as an assayer.
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente Swift Redemption	Posted - 2010.12.05 00:59:00 - [52] I'm intrigued that this appeared to signal that I'd lost my pants on a deal; this is not the case. I just really hate station trading and yes, I did lose some value on a few ships; however, the responses I've gotten have urged me to make some money doing things i dislike, if only to spite my detractors. Investors: Expect an update on my financials sometime soon
Hittings Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.05 01:09:00 - [53] Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane I'm intrigued that this appeared to signal that I'd lost my pants on a deal; this is not the case. I just really hate station trading and yes, I did lose some value on a few ships; however, the responses I've gotten have urged me to make some money doing things i dislike, if only to spite my detractors. Investors: Expect an update on my financials sometime soon Really only one question for you. Have you ever taken a loan in order to fill loan orders/agreements? Can't fix stupid.
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente Swift Redemption	Posted - 2010.12.05 02:15:00 - [54] I'm not quite sure what you mean based on the phrasing, but since I assume you either mean taken a loan to offer a loan or taken a loan to pay back a loan, the answer is probably yes (as I've done both of these things, and the latter at least has been well-documented on this forum).
Cesar Menage MenageTech	Posted - 2010.12.05 02:31:00 - [55] do what ever you need to do. Char are assets. I done a lot of char selling in my time when it was good isk. aslong u doc everything on forums you dont lose your trust. Had to drop my 0.02 ISK in. We sell anything that we can make a buck on
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.12.05 09:12:00 - [56] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 05/12/2010 09:15:10 Quote: I just really hate station trading and yes, I did lose some value on a few ships; however, the responses I've gotten have urged me to make some money doing things i dislike, if only to spite my detractors My response has been to urge you to make money but it was not off a detractor. Having seen this same scenario happen with other friends of mine for years, I'd prefer to see you not to waste your investment and then have no way back later. React now, don't regret latter. Edit: Furthermore forcing you doing things you don't like is EvE's way to impose a loss for those who get their ships asploded. If you want to pew pew and plan to lose i.e. a battleship a day, you have to make an economic machine for you that produces a battleship worth of plusvalence for you, every day. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz

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