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Alt Obviously
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Posted - 2010.12.02 12:27:00 -
[1]
Having so far made my money through missioning and exploration, I wanted to give invention (and having my own POS) a try. I have quite a lot of savings, and really see this as an experiment to diversify my "EVE experience", rather than a huge ISK-maker.
However, having set-up my own POS, having bought and researched some BPOs, trained an industry alt, generally having acquired all the raw materials for invention and subsequent production, I am amazed at how difficult it is to actually make a profit (any profit at all).
I'm quite good with spreadsheets, and have had no problem identifying profitable T1 items to manufacture. Even T2 items with bought BPCs can make a profit. But invention seems to be a huge ISK investment without any serious profitability.
Is this observation shared by others, or am I "doing it wrong"?
PS I'm not asking for tips on which products to invent. I just mean this post in a general sense, that invention is not worth the time/effort/ISK.
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Halborn
Celtic Technologies Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.02 12:31:00 -
[2]
in short, you've either been buying at high prices or are inventing and producing the wrong things.
I currently run a tech 2 manufacturing setup which includes copying inventing and manufacturing. My weekly sales are around 700mil and it costs roughly 300-400mil in datacores and building material and such.
Theres plenty of money to be had in tech 2 manufacturing.
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CEO Celtic Technologies Inc. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.02 12:47:00 -
[3]
It is worth doing it. It only require some market research and good skills.
A couple of tips:
a) Start with modules. The margin for ships is smaller and failing too many job in a row could clear your invention founds.
b) The skill used for inventing are the same needed to get datacores from the R&D agents so start as many R&D agents as you can (hopefully you already have the standing, if not you need to grind it).
It will not reduce your invention cost as using your self produced datacores has an opportunity cost but it will reduce the quantity of liquid isk you will invest in every attempt and will move the profit for selling datacores from another person to you.
Remember to input the cost for the datacores in your spreadsheet even if they are self produced. If you can get more selling them that inventing something with them it is better to sell them.
c) Check the chances of success with your skills. You can find all the needed informations in the sticky at the top of this forum. If you start inventing ships check if it is worth using decryptors or not.
Always use max run BPC for modules. 1 run BPc for ships if you aren't using decryptors, max run if you are using decryptors with a "number of runs" modifier.
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Alt Obviously
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Posted - 2010.12.02 13:06:00 -
[4]
Thanks for the replies, I appreciate it.
Halborn - well, I'm mostly talking about the profitability on my spreadsheets, for which I use low input costs (i.e. low Jita sales, rather than sell orders). That's what amazed me, i.e. that assuming low input prices, the profits are still small. Time/ISK wise, it doesn't seem good at all compared to boring mission grinding, for example.
However, knowing that people (like you) are in fact making decent profits gives me hope!
Venkul - thanks for the tips! I did do my research when it comes to invention profitability etc., but it's also true that I have focussed on ships mostly. I shall give other types of products a try.
Good to know that my set-up efforts weren't for nothing. I guess I just need to calibrate and adjust a little.
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Brian Ballsack
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Posted - 2010.12.02 17:30:00 -
[5]
Make sure you do your price checking and you use your own spreadsheets if your into spreadsheets.
Alot of the spreadsheets and industry tools available, are bent in order to put people off producing.
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Ticker Troon
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Posted - 2010.12.02 19:55:00 -
[6]
Giving some concrete numbers helps a bunch; but yes, T2 invention done correctly is profitable.
I run a small indy corp with 3 toons and two doing invention and manufacture. For ~10 hours investment/week I turn about 350M profit. I'm sure someone will pop up and scoff at that figure (both ways) but I'm comfortable with that rate of return. I am streamlining the operation regularly to extract the last bit of ISK :)
So yes - it can be done, but yes you need to "do the math" and check it twice.
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oiyun
Tleilex Research
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Posted - 2010.12.08 17:12:00 -
[7]
Edited by: oiyun on 08/12/2010 17:13:14
I am also new to invention and I will give you tips gleaned from my experience.
1) 350M per week is very good
2) Invention is profitable only when you are getting your materials off of buy orders. Getting mats off of sell orders will kill your profit quickly.
3) Modules are the best way to et in to it.
4***) Manufacturing is the bottleneck in the process. It pays to have multiple manufacture chars. 10 invention slots will produce so many bpos that you need at least 20 manufacturing slots to keep up with it all.
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Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2010.12.08 19:06:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: oiyun
2) Invention is profitable only when you are getting your materials off of buy orders. Getting mats off of sell orders will kill your profit quickly.
Taking the numbers from Eve-MEEP, assuming you buy all your materials from |Jita sell orders and sell all your product to Jita buy orders (because honestly, if I wanted to fart around updating orders, I'd do station trading and have done with it):
Cost of datacores to invent a 10-run damage control II BPC: 1.95m
Cost of materials to build 10x damage control II: 1.61m
Revenue from selling 10x damage control II to highest Jita buy order: 5.48m
Markup: 51%
Margin: 35%
If you cannot make a profit selling modules without messing with buy orders, you're making the wrong things. You may choose to increase your margins by using buy and sell orders, but it really shouldn't be necessary - there's loads of modules on which you can make a decent profit without ever setting up an order of your own.
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Xyrdiana
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Posted - 2010.12.08 19:09:00 -
[9]
ship invention has little or NO profit at all.
i focus on inventing 2 modules only, which i sell for lots of profit. all i can say is that after buying bpos, datacores for 20-30 inventions i had in my wallet 50m, after a month of inventions my wallet is at 800m after buying datacores for over 100 inventions :) (6 datacores per invention).
so i think:
1)you invent a not good selling module,
2) your pos fuel consumes lots of your profits,
3) wrong region to sell your t2 goodies, for example explosive hardners will sell faster/better in hek/rens than in amarr.
as i stand right now with over 500 inventions in a month i am more than happy with my profits, hell i even sell under sell order price to my corpmates and make profit.
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Julien Brellier
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Posted - 2010.12.09 04:42:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Julien Brellier on 09/12/2010 04:43:12
I suggest you start with battleship size T2 ammo, and sell it in L4 mission hubs.
Also, try to produce as many T2 parts as you can and ALL your POS fuel from PI to reduce your costs, same goes for making your own datacores via R&D agents.
As has been said before, never get any materials from sell orders. Put up buy orders and wait for them to be fulfilled.
T2 ship market is terrible and there is not much profit in it. Ammo and modules is the place to start.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.12.09 07:36:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Julien Brellier
Edited by: Julien Brellier on 09/12/2010 04:43:12
I suggest you start with battleship size T2 ammo, and sell it in L4 mission hubs.
Also, try to produce as many T2 parts as you can and ALL your POS fuel from PI to reduce your costs, same goes for making your own datacores via R&D agents.
As has been said before, never get any materials from sell orders. Put up buy orders and wait for them to be fulfilled.
T2 ship market is terrible and there is not much profit in it. Ammo and modules is the place to start.
Quote:
It will not reduce your invention cost as using your self produced datacores has an opportunity cost but it will reduce the quantity of liquid isk you will invest in every attempt and will move the profit for selling datacores from another person to you.
Same thing for self producing any T2 component and so on. You pay an opportunity cost that is equal to the sale price of the item.
You simply add the profit from selling the T2 component/ice products/ecc. to your invention profit, but they are profits from different activities, not from inventing.
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Rrama Ratamnim
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Posted - 2010.12.09 11:51:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
Cost of datacores to invent a 10-run damage control II BPC: 1.95m
Cost of materials to build 10x damage control II: 1.61m
Revenue from selling 10x damage control II to highest Jita buy order: 5.48m
Markup: 51%
Margin: 35%
I didn't run the numbers, but did you include the failed runs as most modules avg out at about 2.1 trys per success even at best 2:1
if you didnt take that into account, then you'd be at 3.90m + 1.61m = 5.5m cost to build and 5.48 cost to sell, which is what invention has been looking like to me since i rejoined eve recently alot of things seriously are being sold on the low end of the pricing spectrum, and i think a lot of noob inventors or misled inventors forget to account for failed datacores in their build prices.
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Rrama Ratamnim
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Posted - 2010.12.09 11:57:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Alt Obviously
Having so far made my money through missioning and exploration, I wanted to give invention (and having my own POS) a try. I have quite a lot of savings, and really see this as an experiment to diversify my "EVE experience", rather than a huge ISK-maker.
However, having set-up my own POS, having bought and researched some BPOs, trained an industry alt, generally having acquired all the raw materials for invention and subsequent production, I am amazed at how difficult it is to actually make a profit (any profit at all).
I'm quite good with spreadsheets, and have had no problem identifying profitable T1 items to manufacture. Even T2 items with bought BPCs can make a profit. But invention seems to be a huge ISK investment without any serious profitability.
Is this observation shared by others, or am I "doing it wrong"?
PS I'm not asking for tips on which products to invent. I just mean this post in a general sense, that invention is not worth the time/effort/ISK.
oh and forgot to mention, Alt Obviously, even if t1 manufacturing makes little, its still worth it why? because its like PI takes near 0 effort and is nearly impossible to really loose money f you plan ahead... you drop an hour of time a week maybe and make some extra isk
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Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2010.12.09 14:02:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Rrama Ratamnim
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
Cost of datacores to invent a 10-run damage control II BPC: 1.95m
Cost of materials to build 10x damage control II: 1.61m
Revenue from selling 10x damage control II to highest Jita buy order: 5.48m
Markup: 51%
Margin: 35%
I didn't run the numbers, but did you include the failed runs as most modules avg out at about 2.1 trys per success even at best 2:1
Yes, of course I accounted for the probability of successful invention (well, more accurately, Eve-MEEP did it for me). At today's prices, the cost of the datacores for each invention attempt is around 760k. Assuming you have the relevant datacore/encryption methods skills at III, that gives you a 46.1% probability of success. 0.76/0.46 = 1.65m; the minor difference between this value and that quoted yesterday is due to day-to-day fluctuation in the datacore prices pulled from eve-central.
Signature removed. |
Aureus
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Posted - 2010.12.09 21:20:00 -
[15]
Hey guys, just reactivated my account after many years. Back then I was hoping to get T2 BPOs from lottery. Now I come back and find this new invention system. Seems pretty cool and I am studying up on it but this thread mentions something worrying for me - why the POS? (player owned station - right?)
Is that necessary?
Why?
I have thousands of datacores now I plan to use I am just trying to research what product to focus on- I was thinking I can use empire space factories/labs is there a problem with that?
Also, I would need to buy a T1 BPO looks like, and how much should I research the BPO's M/P levels? What kind of copies should I make- just 10 run ?
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Halborn
Celtic Technologies Inc.
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Posted - 2010.12.09 21:34:00 -
[16]
Basically finding copy and invention slots are pretty hard in High-sec. If you want to do alot of invention get a pos you'll need it.
The ME/PE from copies do not copy so unless you need to manufacture the t1 when it comes to manufacturing the t2 dont bother with much ME/PE research on the bpo. Also you want a nice stock of copies because you'll use them fast. I have one alt just copying my BPO's constantly. I build the t1 requirements from copies.
I'm not going to tell you the exact item to start with but modules/ammo/drones are good places to start. As stated the ship market is totally hopeless in terms of stable and high profitability.
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CEO Celtic Technologies Inc. |
Smoke Adian
Caldari
Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.12.09 21:35:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Aureus
Hey guys, just reactivated my account after many years. Back then I was hoping to get T2 BPOs from lottery. Now I come back and find this new invention system. Seems pretty cool and I am studying up on it but this thread mentions something worrying for me - why the POS? (player owned station - right?)
Is that necessary?
Why?
I have thousands of datacores now I plan to use I am just trying to research what product to focus on- I was thinking I can use empire space factories/labs is there a problem with that?
Also, I would need to buy a T1 BPO looks like, and how much should I research the BPO's M/P levels? What kind of copies should I make- just 10 run ?
The problem is copying the BPO's to create BPC's for invention. I spent the last couple days flying all around empire regions and there's only a few low-sec, dead-end systems that actually have open copy slots. So you either have to wait for open slots or have your own pos.
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Aureus
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Posted - 2010.12.09 21:59:00 -
[18]
Oh, I see... the slots - forgot about that.
How much does it cost to put up a POS ? Can you have them in CONCORD patrolled systems?
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Emporer Norton
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Posted - 2010.12.10 03:42:00 -
[19]
Yes you can have a pos in up to .7 space but need 7.00 or higher with that faction as corp standings to put up a pos in .7 6.00+ for .6 5.00+ for .5
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rain9441
Big Head Want Dolly
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Posted - 2010.12.10 04:59:00 -
[20]
There are many T1 items that seem to give more profit than T2 items. You have to remember that movement is a big deal.
Take LSE's for example. Just going by eve-metrics data for now.
You can make 200 some odd LSE I's at around 10k profit each -> 2mil/day. For one manufacturing slot that's pretty good.
You can make what, 10 LSE II's per day at around 200k profit each -> 2mil/day. For one manufacturing slot that's ... the same!
The key factor: Jita only moves 900 LSE I's per day, while it moves over 3500 LSE II's per day. If you just make T1 items you'll end up producing 50+ different things and having trouble moving them all. Huge headache. It takes an army to supply one type of T2 mod in Jita. It takes 1 guy to supply Bestowers in Jita.
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Brother KelborHal
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Posted - 2010.12.12 00:36:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
Originally by: Rrama Ratamnim
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus
Cost of datacores to invent a 10-run damage control II BPC: 1.95m
Cost of materials to build 10x damage control II: 1.61m
Revenue from selling 10x damage control II to highest Jita buy order: 5.48m
Markup: 51%
Margin: 35%
I didn't run the numbers, but did you include the failed runs as most modules avg out at about 2.1 trys per success even at best 2:1
Yes, of course I accounted for the probability of successful invention (well, more accurately, Eve-MEEP did it for me). At today's prices, the cost of the datacores for each invention attempt is around 760k. Assuming you have the relevant datacore/encryption methods skills at III, that gives you a 46.1% probability of success. 0.76/0.46 = 1.65m; the minor difference between this value and that quoted yesterday is due to day-to-day fluctuation in the datacore prices pulled from eve-central.
You "forgot" to calculate the cost for the decryptor for the +9 and the fact that your invetion chance decreases by 40% to an average of 0.22 .
You can't make profit with damage control II unless you own the original BP .
Only market for inventors is ammo and weapons .
Are u Akita's alt ?
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Finedele
Caldari
Marquie-X Corp
Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.12.12 01:46:00 -
[22]
why exactly use a +9 run decryptor, dear fabricator general?
put together 1 max run bpc of damage control 1 (300 runs), some datacores at voila -> 10 run bpc of damage control II, sellable around 150 to 250k profit, depending on your material supply
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Clown Pron
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Posted - 2010.12.12 02:09:00 -
[23]
Everyone is lying to you
Invention is not profitable
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Research Monkey1
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Posted - 2010.12.12 03:00:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Clown Pron
Everyone is lying to you
Invention is not profitable
This, it's really not worth the effort. It's skill intensive, time consuming and low-return. Don't even bother.
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Brock Nelson
Caldari
T2 Technologies Unlimited
SRS.
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Posted - 2010.12.12 04:35:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Clown Pron
Everyone is lying to you
Invention is not profitable
Confirmed
Originally by: Brock Nelson
OP's question is translated as: Help, I'm a female stuck in a man's body, can Incarna help?
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Aureus
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Posted - 2010.12.13 07:00:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Brock Nelson
Originally by: Clown Pron
Everyone is lying to you
Invention is not profitable
Confirmed
Aww :(
What about reverse engineering? Is that something I can do?
It looks like I would need my own POS to do this though - in the end is it profitable?
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Greg Huff
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Posted - 2010.12.13 11:20:00 -
[27]
If it wasn't profitable people wouldn't do it.
People lie to you in an attempt to keep more people out of the market.
If you don't do your calculations and research carefully (and correctly) you can lose a bundle.
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Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2010.12.13 18:12:00 -
[28]
Invention's plenty profitable. On a per-character basis, inventing mods, you're looking at around 750m/month in profit in return for around 5 minutes per day of setting up invention/build jobs. One large POS costs around 250m/month to run and can support up to three characters, so you're looking at around 2b-ish per month per account in profit, just buying your materials from sell orders and selling them to buy orders. It only takes a couple of months to train a basic copier/builder alt if you don't already have one.
Mods aren't the best thing to be inventing atm in terms of profit-per-click, but they scale more or less indefinitely and they're so gawddamn easy to do.
Just make sure you're paying someone else to do the hauling. You can hire Red Frog to haul your fuel, materials, and finished products for stupidly low amounts of money.
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Berikath
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Posted - 2010.12.13 18:50:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Greg Huff
If it wasn't profitable people wouldn't do it.
People lie to you in an attempt to keep more people out of the market.
If you don't do your calculations and research carefully (and correctly) you can lose a bundle.
This. Though, I would add a little bit-
"If it wasn't profitable people wouldn't do it REPEATEDLY"... either because they would figure it out, or they would run out of ISK and be unable to keep their operation going.
As to whether it's profitable ENOUGH to warrant the time/SP/ISK investment.... that's a value judgment you'll have to do yourself.
***
Wish list for PI:
*One-click input routing
*Copy product, inputs & outputs in factories
*Launchpad upgrades: twice the space, twice the cost, half the hassle! |
Aureus
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Posted - 2010.12.13 19:55:00 -
[30]
Can someone explain to me when you want to use a decryptor?
Take for example a T1 ammo BP which you want to do invention on. Is it really worth it to spend say 2.5M on a decryptor on it? That will make the cost of attmepting the invention something like 12x greater
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