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Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb	Posted - 2010.12.02 13:56:00 - [1] Edited by: Wacktopia on 02/12/2010 13:57:14 Post Incursion some T2 ammo has had a buff. Void, the T2 close range Blaster ammo, has had a 10% damage buff and it's tracking penalty reduced from a whopping 50% down to to 25%. I was wondering whether anyone has opinion or experience as to whether Void is worth using over CN antimatter despite the remaining tracking penalty? It's worth noting that the optimal and falloff reduction is still different between AM and Void, making them subtly different in that respect. Personally, I've only ever used Void on shield Brutix / Thorax - basically only if I have t.enh in the lows. CN Antimatter Damage: 16.1 kin + 11.5 therm = 27.6 Pre-Incursion Void Damage: 14 kin + 14 therm = 28 Post-Incursion Void Damage: 15.4 kin + 15.4 therm = 30.8 Edit: My gut feeling is that given the remaining tracking penalty and the increased (25%) activation cost of Void it is still not a viable alternative to CN Antimatter.
1600 RT	Posted - 2010.12.02 14:11:00 - [2] if you going to shoot something bigger than you (like ganking a BS in your brutix) where the tracking and capacitor are not very important void is well worth to use
Xiozor TEMPLAR.	Posted - 2010.12.02 14:12:00 - [3] Perfectly fine as long as you are going to be shooting a target that is: 1. Of a larger ship class than yourself. 2. Completely webbed to oblivion so won't be moving anywhere, good for station games. ----------------------------------------------- Mr.Kippling just launched a nuclear holocaust at third world countries! ... But he does make exceedingly good cakes.
Artemis Rose Clandestine Vector	Posted - 2010.12.02 14:26:00 - [4] If you are shooting a (well)tackled target that is larger than you, Void. Everything else, Navy Antimatter. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Mikael Mechka Gallente Time Bandits.	Posted - 2010.12.02 14:32:00 - [5] Don't know if anyone has noticed yet, but smaller ships with a tracking bonus can more or less use void freely now. The enyo is often seen as one of the underdogs of the assault frig class but it's tracking bonus lends itself to void use well I feel. With motion prediction 5 and assault ships 4, light neutron blaster II tracking with void s loaded is 0.385734375 rad/sec (copy/pasted from ingame). Taranis has the same tracking bonus per inty level, so it too should be able to put out some additional punch with void. Range and capacitor remains an issue, but it always has been for gallante close range ships- can't do much about it. ------------------------------------------------- Originally by: Lana Torrin I just reported you for being informative in a troll thread. Please leave.
Zahira Wrath Amarr Dominion Strategic	Posted - 2010.12.02 15:29:00 - [6] Originally by: Mikael Mechka Don't know if anyone has noticed yet, but smaller ships with a tracking bonus can more or less use void freely now. The enyo is often seen as one of the underdogs of the assault frig class but it's tracking bonus lends itself to void use well I feel. What about a Megathron vs other Battleships in a Pve environment? ... would void make sense?
Draco Rosso Caldari Draconian Armada	Posted - 2010.12.02 15:29:00 - [7] Shield tanked blaster boats should be able to claw back the tracking penalties with tracking enhancers. This patch does benefits ships with the web strength bonus like the Vigilant and the Daredevil ------------------------------------------------ We are recruiting Website http://draconianarmada.com Recruitment Thread http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1316229
achoura	Posted - 2010.12.02 15:53:00 - [8] The range bonus pretty much cancels out the tracking penalty at it's max range. Provided you can deal with the increased cap use, and pin your target, then it's just 10% increased damage. Remember that while the tracking penalty reduces the applied damage at the same range as cn am the falloff bonus increases the effective range, especially on ships with bonuses to it (diemost). this sill will not save you :P *The EVE servers and their patches* [b]"the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells b
demonfurbie Minmatar Drunken Wookies BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2010.12.02 15:58:00 - [9] i know ill be using void in my dual web vindi not sure if it will work in a mega/navy mega just yet ill have to test it out
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2010.12.02 16:36:00 - [10] Originally by: achoura Remember that while the tracking penalty reduces the applied damage at the same range as cn am the falloff bonus increases the effective range, especially on ships with bonuses to it (diemost). this sill will not save you :P AFAIK, the close range ammo types like Void still have a range penalty, not a bonus. Null would have the falloff bonus, I'm pretty sure.
Aamrr	Posted - 2010.12.02 16:42:00 - [11] You guys are forgetting that transversal velocity is not just the function of your target's speed -- it's a function of your own speed, as well. Even if your target is webbed to hell and back, your own ship's movements can cause sufficient transversal to make it difficult to strike your target -- particularly on fast/agile ships like the daredevil and taranis. I, for one, intend to stick to faction ammunition until that tracking penalty is eliminated.
Meatypopsicle	Posted - 2010.12.02 16:55:00 - [12] Edited by: Meatypopsicle on 02/12/2010 16:58:28 Originally by: Seriously Bored Originally by: achoura Remember that while the tracking penalty reduces the applied damage at the same range as cn am the falloff bonus increases the effective range, especially on ships with bonuses to it (diemost). this sill will not save you :P AFAIK, the close range ammo types like Void still have a range penalty, not a bonus. Null would have the falloff bonus, I'm pretty sure. Using a Proteus and heavy Neutrons(with 10% bonus to falloff per level from the Hybrid prop armature subsystem): CN AM = 2.3km + 9.4km Void = 3.4km + 4.7km Null = 5.6km + 12km
Vyktor Abyss The 8th Order	Posted - 2010.12.02 18:00:00 - [13] Originally by: Aamrr You guys are forgetting that transversal velocity is not just the function of your target's speed -- it's a function of your own speed, as well. Even if your target is webbed to hell and back, your own ship's movements can cause sufficient transversal to make it difficult to strike your target -- particularly on fast/agile ships like the daredevil and taranis. I, for one, intend to stick to faction ammunition until that tracking penalty is eliminated. This. Tracking penalty still sucks meaning even your own orbit screw you - additional damage not compensation enough compared to Navy Antimatter.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.12.02 18:24:00 - [14] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Originally by: Aamrr This. Tracking penalty still sucks meaning even your own orbit screw you - additional damage not compensation enough compared to Navy Antimatter. If you have range control, and a significant damage advantage but your enemy has tracking advantage, you are doing something terribly wrong if you just blindly orbit at high speed.
Vyktor Abyss The 8th Order	Posted - 2010.12.02 20:21:00 - [15] Here's and example: Use two identical fit blaster Taranis, one with Void - the other CNA/FNA. Both orbit = CNA Taranis wins One orbits, other stationary = CNA Taranis wins Both stationary = Void Taranis wins So yeah Void's advantage over Navy antimatter is when the opponent stays still, and you can too without being outdpsed/outganked. As has been said above, makes Void useful maybe on a Vindicator or other situations where you're both hardly moving (station ganks, perhaps webbed BS vs webbed BS). For everything else, Navy Antimatter - Awesome.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.12.02 20:49:00 - [16] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 02/12/2010 20:50:06 Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Use two identical fit blaster Taranis So pray tell, why would you allow the other guy in an identically fit ship to orbit if you suspect you dont have the tracking advantage?
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.12.02 21:49:00 - [17] Somehow i believe that ranis with null would win heh.
Vyktor Abyss The 8th Order	Posted - 2010.12.02 22:11:00 - [18] Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 02/12/2010 22:15:20 Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 02/12/2010 20:50:06 Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Use two identical fit blaster Taranis So pray tell, why would you allow the other guy in an identically fit ship to orbit if you suspect you dont have the tracking advantage? Maybe you're electron fit and you think he's Ion or Neutron fit? Maybe you think he's not going to shoot, maybe he's going to fly past you to head to the circus to see the bearded lady? Or maybe you should make a point instead of replying with inane questions? I've pointed out that void still sucks, you've only questioned piloting skill in an argument about Void ammo. Bravo.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.12.02 22:21:00 - [19] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 02/12/2010 22:22:06 Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Or maybe you should make a point instead of replying with inane questions? I've pointed out that void still sucks, you've only questioned piloting skill in an argument about Void ammo. Bravo. Maybe you just missed the point? Whenever you are safe to use antimatter, you are safe to use void just as well (admittedly, you have to know what you are doing, but that goes for AM for the most part too). If the situation doesnt allow to use void, you are better off with null most likely anyway, as Lugazegil pointed out above.
Vyktor Abyss The 8th Order	Posted - 2010.12.02 23:04:00 - [20] Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 02/12/2010 23:14:39 Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 02/12/2010 22:22:06 Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Or maybe you should make a point instead of replying with inane questions? I've pointed out that void still sucks, you've only questioned piloting skill in an argument about Void ammo. Bravo. Maybe you just missed the point? Whenever you are safe to use antimatter, you are safe to use void just as well (admittedly, you have to know what you are doing, but that goes for AM for the most part too). If the situation doesnt allow to use void, you are better off with null most likely anyway, as Lugazegil pointed out above. I think you're probably not a Taranis pilot because you're very unclear and actually incorrect on the Italic bit. I dont think you're a very experienced Taranis pilot. Null (and now Void) also has a -25% tracking penalty and while this ammo is useful for killing some stuff (normally AFs) that has the tank to pull range on you while you're killing it, versus another blaster Taranis Navy Antimatter ammo will win the vast majority of fights unless you're a really bad pilot or have been caught by some freakish anti-taranis Taranis setup (these will normally use AB, scram and rails for range anyway). Null is NOT just antimatter with range because I'd orbit your Null Taranis laughing my ass off in my NA taranis melting your face off while you're struggling to even get a decent hit. A Taranis can orbit at 500m on many different ships without being hit (against frigs/dessies it requires an AB) - this tactic is probably the most common Taranis tactic - using any tracking penalized ammo for these orbits reduces the DPS well below Navy antimatter. 25% less tracking IS a big issue on Null, but especially on Void because its closer range and as you're closer/tighter orbitting you get higher transversal.....which is back where I began - so Void still sucks. This time when you post again (which you will rather than go fly the ship and get more experience), please make a point about Void and not Null, or Guardian Iron or Shadow Tungsten or Navy Uranium etc etc, you know, just to stay on topic; because I'm saying Void still sucks - prove me wrong. Edit: Ninja killmail proof of having some pew pew experience (before you question it). Killing Garmon 1v1 in Taranis pew pew.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.12.02 23:09:00 - [21] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 02/12/2010 23:10:42 Originally by: Vyktor Abyss hurf blurf You recall your initial argument being two identical fit taranises, right? Simple fact is, you wont be able to orbit anything there unless the other guy lets you orbit, and then we're back to bad piloting. But I guess thats like it always is in these types of discussions, suddenly your fit changes to adapt a situation
Vyktor Abyss The 8th Order	Posted - 2010.12.02 23:19:00 - [22] Oh dear, now you want to start again. Two identical fit Taranis. AB fit - Navy Antimatter wins. END.
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.12.02 23:23:00 - [23] Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 02/12/2010 23:10:42 Originally by: Vyktor Abyss hurf blurf You recall your initial argument being two identical fit taranises, right? Simple fact is, you wont be able to orbit anything there unless the other guy lets you orbit, and then we're back to bad piloting. But I guess thats like it always is in these types of discussions, suddenly your fit changes to adapt a situation still doesn't matter tho. void unnerf increased the number of situations you could use them by a tiny margin yes, but it's still too situational compared to faction AM, specially when void pretty much denunciates the blaster problems even more. so, while conflag has pretty much been denerfed and hail has recieved a nice boost (altho still a wee bit bad), void still sucks and 9 times out of 10, you're still better off with null or faction AM --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.12.02 23:43:00 - [24] It does matter - every time you can control range, you can use void over faction am without losing any dps to tracking issues. Its simple as hitting "keep at range xxx m." Its same for hail or conflag.
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.12.03 00:13:00 - [25] Edited by: Grimpak on 03/12/2010 00:13:30 Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 It does matter - every time you can control range, you can use void over faction am without losing any dps to tracking issues. Its simple as hitting "keep at range xxx m." Its same for hail or conflag. yes, but have you forgotten how many blaster ships can actually control range? --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.12.03 00:18:00 - [26] The number of blasterships that are able to control range is definitely higher than number of laserboats that can do that.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2010.12.03 00:23:00 - [27] Originally by: Grimpak yes, but have you forgotten how many blaster ships can actually control range? Most sensible fits can, not against all possible targets but that is rock-paper-scissors. Anyway, in a situation where they cant control range antimatter is a very poor choice as well.
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation	Posted - 2010.12.03 00:29:00 - [28] Edited by: Grimpak on 03/12/2010 00:30:16 Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 The number of blasterships that are able to control range is definitely higher than number of laserboats that can do that. trimarked/armor-rigged/buffer tanked/active tanked battleships can barely go above the 1.1km/sec mark and that's pushing it. you can use a shield tanked hyperion, but then again, that seems a wee bit too sketchy. on the battlecruiser front, both the brutix and the astarte are also hardly fast, and the same goes to the thorax and deimos. the taranis and the DD are the only blaster ships that can somewhat control range. then again, laser boats are not famous for their midslots, so you do have a point there altho, one could argue that, even with conflag (and ammo swapping times), you can use the guns' superior range as a control method, but I digress. Originally by: Omara Otawan Originally by: Grimpak yes, but have you forgotten how many blaster ships can actually control range? Most sensible fits can, not against all possible targets but that is rock-paper-scissors. Anyway, in a situation where they cant control range antimatter is a very poor choice as well. true, but the fact that AM doesn't come with a falloff and tracking nerf can work for it. all short range ammos considered, it really does look like that blasters got the short end of the stick. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2010.12.03 01:27:00 - [29] Saying that dd can "somewhat" control range is . Actually there are much more gallente ships that can do that, even incursus and tristan are pretty fast compared to amarr or caldari frigs. On bc level it doesnt matter if we are talking about tracking and its same with bses - only bses capable of outtracking blasters are phoon and pest. Not that its likely to happen. Imo void can be useful for all ship sizes, but only under specific conditions - if you are good pvper, you will know when to use it - and result will be 10% more dps from your guns. Its almost same for hail and conflag.
El'Tar Caldari Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2010.12.03 01:31:00 - [30] Edited by: El''Tar on 03/12/2010 01:35:45 Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Edit: Ninja killmail proof of having some pew pew experience (before you question it). Killing Garmon 1v1 in Taranis pew pew. News @ 11 Scrub in a no mwd AB Taranis beats Dual prop Taranis and thinks its some sort of achievement :frystare: also, void would b p dumb at inty 1v1's, srsly, and null is usually better if the target doesn't have significant range control over you ________________________________________________

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