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Are incursions unplayable without a high-end system?

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Doravos	Posted - 2010.12.05 21:12:00 - [1] I've enjoyed playing on my laptop, and I can run missions and other stuff well enough. But I've attempted a few of the incursion events, but the lag and frame rate made it unplayable. Am I just going to have to avoid them and stick to solo missioning until I can afford a more expensive rig (which I can't)?
Gallians	Posted - 2010.12.05 21:13:00 - [2] I have a top of the line Radeon card and the frame rate is just as bad. Its server lag, not lag on your end.
Grez Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2010.12.05 21:14:00 - [3] Originally by: Gallians I have a top of the line Radeon card and the frame rate is just as bad. Its server lag, not lag on your end. I'm not sure if you're just stupid, or a troll... ---
Culmen Caldari Blood Phage Syndicate	Posted - 2010.12.05 21:19:00 - [4] I'm running on a crappy compaq laptop. Framerates strutter. But it runs smoothly if you turn of all effects. and further more why do i even need a sig?
Gallians	Posted - 2010.12.05 21:23:00 - [5] Originally by: Grez Originally by: Gallians I have a top of the line Radeon card and the frame rate is just as bad. Its server lag, not lag on your end. I'm not sure if you're just stupid, or a troll... Eh, I have a Radeon 5870 1 gb Ram. If that is not able to run the invasion events without lag, I don't know what would be. I played one a couple of days ago and the framerate was pretty bad. But please correct me if I am wrong, and it was graphics related lag. I didn't have all brackets on, or anything, either.
Cathleia	Posted - 2010.12.05 21:25:00 - [6] Edited by: Cathleia on 05/12/2010 21:25:34 Originally by: Gallians Eh, I have a Radeon 5870 1 gb Ram. If that is not able to run the invasion events without lag, I don't know what would be. I played one a couple of days ago and the framerate was pretty bad. But please correct me if I am wrong, and it was graphics related lag. I didn't have all brackets on, or anything, either. It could be driver related. I have a GTX285 and I do not suffer from any lag, so it seems doubtful it's the card itself.
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.12.05 21:30:00 - [7] Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 05/12/2010 21:30:26 The live events on tq so far have shown that many, many people in high-sec don't seem to know how to set up EVE for fleet-fights. Please make sure you have a reasonable setup (brackets, display settings, overview settings) before thinking about upgrading your hardware.
Gallians	Posted - 2010.12.05 21:31:00 - [8] Originally by: Cathleia Edited by: Cathleia on 05/12/2010 21:25:34 Originally by: Gallians Eh, I have a Radeon 5870 1 gb Ram. If that is not able to run the invasion events without lag, I don't know what would be. I played one a couple of days ago and the framerate was pretty bad. But please correct me if I am wrong, and it was graphics related lag. I didn't have all brackets on, or anything, either. It could be driver related. I have a GTX285 and I do not suffer from any lag, so it seems doubtful it's the card itself. Ah, thanks, I'll look into that. I just assumed it was on the server side, but its good to know that that isn't the case. Do you disable all visual effects or? I don't have lag in any other events but I havent done mayor 0.0 fleet fights, so I dunno if those work or not.
Spurty Caldari D00M. Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2010.12.05 21:32:00 - [9] AMD is never getting my RL cash ever again after the 5850 slowed my machine down. Some serious performance loss from an nVidia 8800. nVidia and Intel get my cash next upgrade. Hoppit!
Tiliam	Posted - 2010.12.05 21:34:00 - [10] Originally by: Gallians Originally by: Grez Originally by: Gallians I have a top of the line Radeon card and the frame rate is just as bad. Its server lag, not lag on your end. I'm not sure if you're just stupid, or a troll... Eh, I have a Radeon 5870 1 gb Ram. If that is not able to run the invasion events without lag, I don't know what would be. I played one a couple of days ago and the framerate was pretty bad. But please correct me if I am wrong, and it was graphics related lag. I didn't have all brackets on, or anything, either. There's more to a computer than just the graphics card - cpu, ram, os, hdd speed/fragmentation and the overall condition of the software on a machine can make the fps stutter. I've never had anything less than ~60fps on my ATi gpu based machine. Then again I'm seeing "lag" being used to describe fps and/or high latency/poor server response. FPS issues are purely down to your machine's hardware and can easily be identified by rotating the camera around your ship - if the movement is not smooth you have fps issues. If, on the other hand, the rotation is smooth yet things look unresponsive or ships seem to jump from location to location then that is either a bad connection or the server under load.

Saxton Hale	Posted - 2010.12.05 21:35:00 - [11] CCP also seem to have failed to reinforce the Incursion nodes properly today. Guns didn't cycle with <700 players in system, thus making the event actor's supercarrier tank wholly unbreakable. Poor show tbh, will only put people off taking part if CCP don't even reinforce correctly for their own events.
Krxon Blade	Posted - 2010.12.05 21:42:00 - [12] Also got Ati 5870 1GB card (Sapphire VaporX series, non overclocked) and Eve runs smoothly. 2560x1440 resolution, antialiasing x2, everything else on max. It runs smooth in both windowed or full screen mode. Maybe you got drivers issue, or your CPU not in pair with your graphic card I'm running it on more than 2yrs old Q9550 CPU (also non OCed) -- Eve Online related stuff
Gallians	Posted - 2010.12.05 22:00:00 - [13] Originally by: Krxon Blade Also got Ati 5870 1GB card (Sapphire VaporX series, non overclocked) and Eve runs smoothly. 2560x1440 resolution, antialiasing x2, everything else on max. It runs smooth in both windowed or full screen mode. Maybe you got drivers issue, or your CPU not in pair with your graphic card I'm running it on more than 2yrs old Q9550 CPU (also non OCed) Thanks for the posts guys, I found the issue, I was running with an old version of the drivers. Everything seems to be running a lot better now so I'm gonna chalk it up to that.
Herping yourDerp	Posted - 2010.12.05 22:20:00 - [14] Originally by: Spurty AMD is never getting my RL cash ever again after the 5850 slowed my machine down. Some serious performance loss from an nVidia 8800. nVidia and Intel get my cash next upgrade. so... your an idiot? L2 update drivers, AMD processors are always weaker then intel
Tom Fulleride	Posted - 2010.12.05 22:23:00 - [15] The key to mitigating most lag rests on the client settings of the user, and much less often the user's hardware. Turn down graphics settings is the obvious first. The next one is not so obvious. Players hardened to fleet fight lag will tell you all sorts of tricks to operating under unavoidablylaggy situations. The brackets and the windows of the client play quite a big role. You should set up overview tabs for various streamlined brackets. This can be the difference between 5 fps, and a stable 60 fps. It wont help server side lag, but client side lag shouldn't be much of an issue for anyone with a dedicated graphics that's less than 5 years old. Turn off blinking chat windows. Close or minimize windows you don't need. Disable loot logging. Reduce the use of background colors for bracket items (small icon should be fine) Put modules on manual cycle. > activate > wait 2 cycles > deactivate > repeat etc.
Borun Tal Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.12.05 23:58:00 - [16] Originally by: Grez Originally by: Gallians I have a top of the line Radeon card and the frame rate is just as bad. Its server lag, not lag on your end. I'm not sure if you're just stupid, or troll... How about constructive input rather than behaving like a douche?
Aunty Nora	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:04:00 - [17] Originally by: Herping yourDerp so... your an idiot? L2 update drivers, AMD processors are always weaker then intel Ex wow scum, new to computers im guessing, Amd are not always weaker than intel. GTFBTW.
Jane Griffin	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:07:00 - [18] Edited by: Jane Griffin on 06/12/2010 00:09:02 Originally by: Tiliam Originally by: Gallians Originally by: Grez Originally by: Gallians I have a top of the line Radeon card and the frame rate is just as bad. Its server lag, not lag on your end. I'm not sure if you're just stupid, or a troll... Eh, I have a Radeon 5870 1 gb Ram. If that is not able to run the invasion events without lag, I don't know what would be. I played one a couple of days ago and the framerate was pretty bad. But please correct me if I am wrong, and it was graphics related lag. I didn't have all brackets on, or anything, either. There's more to a computer than just the graphics card - cpu, ram, os, hdd speed/fragmentation and the overall condition of the software on a machine can make the fps stutter. I've never had anything less than ~60fps on my ATi gpu based machine. Then again I'm seeing "lag" being used to describe fps and/or high latency/poor server response. FPS issues are purely down to your machine's hardware and can easily be identified by rotating the camera around your ship - if the movement is not smooth you have fps issues. If, on the other hand, the rotation is smooth yet things look unresponsive or ships seem to jump from location to location then that is either a bad connection or the server under load. FPS drops can be caused by server side lag. This video of 700 shuttles being smartbombed by a kronos will show you that... computer spec: [email protected] 285GTX 4GB ram Gaming install on RAID 0 (2 drives wide). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjN3z3EP4wo The mouse was being moved in a smooth rotation throughout the whole video though you see pauses as the server deals with the event.
Tom Fulleride	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:12:00 - [19] Originally by: Jane Griffin FPS drops can be caused by server side lag. This video of 700 shuttles being smartbombed by a kronos will show you that... computer spec: [email protected] 285GTX 4GB ram Gaming install on RAID 0 (2 drives wide). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjN3z3EP4wo The mouse was being moved in a smooth rotation throughout the whole video though you see pauses as the server deals with the event. I don't see any lag, or any indication of a FPS drop. Explosions in eve have always been in somewhat disjointed stages. Look at any video of a POS blowing up.
Tiliam	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:15:00 - [20] Edited by: Tiliam on 06/12/2010 00:17:29 Originally by: Jane Griffin Originally by: Tiliam There's more to a computer than just the graphics card - cpu, ram, os, hdd speed/fragmentation and the overall condition of the software on a machine can make the fps stutter. I've never had anything less than ~60fps on my ATi gpu based machine. Then again I'm seeing "lag" being used to describe fps and/or high latency/poor server response. FPS issues are purely down to your machine's hardware and can easily be identified by rotating the camera around your ship - if the movement is not smooth you have fps issues. If, on the other hand, the rotation is smooth yet things look unresponsive or ships seem to jump from location to location then that is either a bad connection or the server under load. FPS drops can be caused by server side lag. This video of 700 shuttles being smartbombed by a kronos will show you that... computer spec: [email protected] 285GTX 4GB ram Gaming install on RAID 0 (2 drives wide). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjN3z3EP4wo No - server side issues can't cause FPS drops. Lots happening on-screen can cause FPS drops but all the server does is tell the client what ships are where (it is purely data - nothing visual). If that data is not available then the client renders whatever data it had from the server last. The FPS drops in that video were caused by 700 shuttles blowing up, each with their own explosion effects - the FPS drop was because of having to render 700 explosions, all with overlapping effects - NOT because of the server (to be fair the FPS remained pretty smooth in that video, if you're saying the ships not all blowing up at once is due to an FPS drop it isn't - it is server load causing all the ships to not blow up at exactly the same time). If the server is heavily loaded then the FPS on screen will remain whatever the machine can render - no matter what the server load is. When the server acts up then ship positions and actions may seem jumpy but the FPS is not impacted - only the information on where to render the ships/missiles etc is.

Jane Griffin	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:15:00 - [21] Edited by: Jane Griffin on 06/12/2010 00:23:42 The game stops for about a second but you dont see any indication of a fps drop?... backs away I suppose it could be system lag but i somehow doubt it. Also, if you notice that was not overlapping effects, the explosion was far more that 700 tiny explosions, they all interact and effect each other becoming much more than a group of shuttle explosions. How this unifying of close proximity explosions would effect local system performance i do not know... I also know not the load on the server working out the mechanics of unifying all those explosions into a relatively small group of very large explosions (as the video shows). Also, please notice that the 1 second pause was BEFORE any explosions had to be rendered, in fact it was even before the simple smartbomb effect!
Tiliam	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:23:00 - [22] Edited by: Tiliam on 06/12/2010 00:23:28 Originally by: Jane Griffin Edited by: Jane Griffin on 06/12/2010 00:17:46 The game stopps for about a second but you dont see any idication of a fps drop?... backs away I suppose it could be system lag but i somehow doubt it. It is all down to the local machine (mostly GPU related with that many effects as it's very GPU intensive) for the FPS drops - the server can not have any impact on FPS at all - this is an arcitectural thing - the server tells the client where the ships and other objects are, all rendering and everything to do with FPS is done on the local machine - this is why you can be playing eve, unplug your modem and the game is still rendered at the same FPS - the server has nothing to do with FPS. Some people thing lag and FPS are one and the same because in massive blob fights you see both FPS drops and server side lag but that's because the server's having to deal with that many ships causing bad server response and server lag where things aren't happening while the client is having to try and render all the ships and effects, which takes their toll on a graphics card and CPU.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:23:00 - [23] Edited by: Tippia on 06/12/2010 00:26:14 Originally by: Jane Griffin The game stops for about a second but you dont see any indication of a fps drop?... backs away No. He doesn't see any indication that the server causes FPS drops. edit: Bah! Too slow. Anyway, in that kind of situation, the server could actually ever improve your FPS in an indirect way: by being so choked from handling all the blow-up action that it slows down the rate at which the client is being updated, thus relieving the client from the arduous task of rendering all those explosions at once. Not that it happened in this case, but stillà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Jane Griffin	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:25:00 - [24] Originally by: Tiliam Edited by: Tiliam on 06/12/2010 00:23:28 Originally by: Jane Griffin Edited by: Jane Griffin on 06/12/2010 00:17:46 The game stopps for about a second but you dont see any idication of a fps drop?... backs away I suppose it could be system lag but i somehow doubt it. It is all down to the local machine (mostly GPU related with that many effects as it's very GPU intensive) for the FPS drops - the server can not have any impact on FPS at all - this is an arcitectural thing - the server tells the client where the ships and other objects are, all rendering and everything to do with FPS is done on the local machine - this is why you can be playing eve, unplug your modem and the game is still rendered at the same FPS - the server has nothing to do with FPS. Some people thing lag and FPS are one and the same because in massive blob fights you see both FPS drops and server side lag but that's because the server's having to deal with that many ships causing bad server response and server lag where things aren't happening while the client is having to try and render all the ships and effects, which takes their toll on a graphics card and CPU. I edited but too slowly. The second pause was the before the smartbomb effect and WELL BEFORE any explosions had to be rendered.
Tiliam	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:31:00 - [25] Edited by: Tiliam on 06/12/2010 00:33:02 Originally by: Jane Griffin Originally by: Tiliam Edited by: Tiliam on 06/12/2010 00:23:28 Originally by: Jane Griffin Edited by: Jane Griffin on 06/12/2010 00:17:46 The game stopps for about a second but you dont see any idication of a fps drop?... backs away I suppose it could be system lag but i somehow doubt it. It is all down to the local machine (mostly GPU related with that many effects as it's very GPU intensive) for the FPS drops - the server can not have any impact on FPS at all - this is an arcitectural thing - the server tells the client where the ships and other objects are, all rendering and everything to do with FPS is done on the local machine - this is why you can be playing eve, unplug your modem and the game is still rendered at the same FPS - the server has nothing to do with FPS. Some people thing lag and FPS are one and the same because in massive blob fights you see both FPS drops and server side lag but that's because the server's having to deal with that many ships causing bad server response and server lag where things aren't happening while the client is having to try and render all the ships and effects, which takes their toll on a graphics card and CPU. I edited but too slowly. The second pause was the before the smartbomb effect and WELL BEFORE any explosions had to be rendered. I saw your edit, just didn't update what I was quoting it in my reply. As i explained a server can have no impact on FPS at all - all FPS slowdowns are due to the machine doing the rendering not being able to cope. There is a very basic test you can do to see if it is FPS drops or the server being under load - if the camera scrolling stops or becomes stuttery that's client side and due to the machine you are running on - if the camera keeps scrolling without any issues but the ships/missiles etc aren't moving or updating their position then it is server side lag where your client isn't being told new positions for the ships and objects to be rendered. The visual stuttering in the video was either caused by the machine not being able to cope with the rendering or because the mouse movement for the camera wasn't smooth and the person taking the video could have stopped the mouse for a second. There was some server side performance issues as not all ships were destroyed in a perfectly updated pattern which would reflect the use of a smartbomb but as I said that has no impact on FPS - everything would still have been rednered at the maximum FPS the machine was capable of.
Corndog Sandwich GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:32:00 - [26] Originally by: Mme Pinkerton Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 05/12/2010 21:30:26 The live events on tq so far have shown that many, many people in high-sec don't seem to know how to set up EVE for fleet-fights. Please make sure you have a reasonable setup (brackets, display settings, overview settings) before thinking about upgrading your hardware. Pretty much... this! Welcome to what us in 0.0 have been talking about for a long while. We learned to manage and 'deal with it'!
Zantris	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:33:00 - [27] Edited by: Zantris on 06/12/2010 00:34:12 Originally by: Gallians I have a top of the line Radeon card and the frame rate is just as bad. Its server lag, not lag on your end. The rate at which your computer renders frames has absolutely nothing to do with the server or lag.
Jane Griffin	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:34:00 - [28] Edited by: Jane Griffin on 06/12/2010 00:35:20 Originally by: Tiliam Originally by: Jane Griffin Originally by: Tiliam Edited by: Tiliam on 06/12/2010 00:23:28 Originally by: Jane Griffin Edited by: Jane Griffin on 06/12/2010 00:17:46 The game stopps for about a second but you dont see any idication of a fps drop?... backs away I suppose it could be system lag but i somehow doubt it. It is all down to the local machine (mostly GPU related with that many effects as it's very GPU intensive) for the FPS drops - the server can not have any impact on FPS at all - this is an arcitectural thing - the server tells the client where the ships and other objects are, all rendering and everything to do with FPS is done on the local machine - this is why you can be playing eve, unplug your modem and the game is still rendered at the same FPS - the server has nothing to do with FPS. Some people thing lag and FPS are one and the same because in massive blob fights you see both FPS drops and server side lag but that's because the server's having to deal with that many ships causing bad server response and server lag where things aren't happening while the client is having to try and render all the ships and effects, which takes their toll on a graphics card and CPU. I edited but too slowly. The second pause was the before the smartbomb effect and WELL BEFORE any explosions had to be rendered. I saw your edit, just didn't update what I was quoting it in my reply. As i explained a server can have no impact on FPS at all - all FPS slowdowns are due to the machine doing the rendering not being able to cope. There is a very basic test you can do to see if it is FPS drops or the server being under load - if the camera scrolling stops or becomes stuttery that's client side and due to the machine you are running on - if the camera keeps scrolling without any issues but the ships/missiles etc aren't moving or updating their position then it is server side lag where your client isn't being told new positions for the ships and objects to be rendered. The visual stuttering in the video was either caused by the machine not being able to cope with the rendering or because the mouse movement for the camera wasn't smooth and the person taking the video stopped the mouse for a second. There was some server side performance issues as not all ships were destroyed in a perfectly updated pattern which would reflect the use of a smartbomb but as I said that has no impact on FPS - everything would still have been rednered at the maximum FPS the machine was capable of. I took the video, with my g9 on an expensive mouse mat, the movement was smooth :p Also, experience from other games, most notably battlefield bad company 2 where poor server quality can result in relatively bad fps (before recent patches), belies your common sense understanding of the interaction between server load and fps in some games, sorry.
Zantris	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:38:00 - [29] Originally by: Jane Griffin Also, experience from other games, most notably battlefield bad company 2 where poor server quality can result in relatively bad fps (before recent patches), belies your common sense understanding of the interaction between server load and fps in some games, sorry. That's called a bug.
Tiliam	Posted - 2010.12.06 00:41:00 - [30] Edited by: Tiliam on 06/12/2010 00:44:58 Edited by: Tiliam on 06/12/2010 00:43:18 Originally by: Jane Griffin I took the video, with my g9 on an expensive mouse mat, the movement was smooth :p Also, experience from other games, most notably battlefield bad company 2 where poor server quality can result in relatively bad fps (before recent patches), belies your common sense understanding of the interaction between server load and fps in some games. Well then it was your machine (most likely GPU however with that many geometry objects to have to calculate I can't rule CPU out entirely if it was especially unbalanced compared with the rest of the system). Oh and you don't need to use a mousemat for a G9 unless you have a glass table - the lasers in those mice are of a good enough quality to mean any surface anomolies have a negligable impact on detecting movement, but that's a different thing all-together. Your claim that bad server = bad FPS - this cannot happen in a "proper" (read: not designed by a complete idiot) client/server based game - the nature of these games is simple - the server holds a list of objects and 3D co-ordinates for those objects and sends that information to the client (in the case of BF:BC2 it's not everything that gets sent - rendered objects/landscape such as the terrain and non-modifyable objects which are stored locally and only modifications to those such as craters is sent by the server). The client then takes the list of positions, looks up what the objects are on the local hard-drive/memory and renders the objects where the server claimed the objects were and at what angle/state etc. The only way a server can negatively impact a client's rendering ability would be if it was sending a stupid amount of requests which were so great in number that the extra CPU power used to send the replies back to the server meant that the local client was starved of CPU power. I also have played BF:BC2 sincle launch and have never had poor FPS because of the server I was playing on - poor update rates yes, but as I have kept saying just because the location of an object is not updated does not mean the FPS is poor.



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