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[Proposition] The Great Battleship Rebalance

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Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2010.12.09 07:58:00 - [31] How about a demonstration of your 8/6/8 Abaddon setup? I mean, nothing argues louder than examples. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. Word of Chaos
Edvar	Posted - 2010.12.09 08:00:00 - [32] 8 guns,Web,Disrupter,cap booster,tracking computer,sensor booster,speed mod,. Typical plate and heat sink layout in the lows.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2010.12.09 08:07:00 - [33] No rigs? Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. Word of Chaos
Edvar	Posted - 2010.12.09 08:09:00 - [34] whatever rigs you think are good on a ship that fires its cap out the window
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2010.12.09 08:14:00 - [35] It's moot, because you wouldn't have the CPU to make it work. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. Word of Chaos
Edvar	Posted - 2010.12.09 08:31:00 - [36] So having extra slots in pointless then?....
Tub Chil	Posted - 2010.12.09 08:55:00 - [37] Why don't you ask to give battleships more EHP/DPS? certainly CCP will never implement crazy ideas like t1 ship jumping around!!
Edvar	Posted - 2010.12.09 09:06:00 - [38] They get like 400k plus EHP and 1500+ DPS, anythin more then thats gonna be up to Capital ship level
Tub Chil	Posted - 2010.12.09 10:32:00 - [39] Originally by: Edvar They get like 400k plus EHP and 1500+ DPS, anythin more then thats gonna be up to Capital ship level please post fits with 400kk EHP and 1500+ DPS
Korg Leaf Time Bandits.	Posted - 2010.12.09 10:35:00 - [40] Originally by: Anubis Xian It's moot, because you wouldn't have the CPU to make it work. You could make a fit for the 8/6/8 baddon requires faction EANM's though Low Slots 1600mm Rolled Tungsten Plate 1600mm Rolled Tungsten Plate 1600mm Rolled Tungsten Plate Damage Control II DB Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane DB Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Adaptive Nano Plating II Heat Sink II Mid Slots Quad-LiF Feuled Booster Rockets I Faint Warp Disruptor Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Scan Res Conjunctive ECCM Radar Medium Cap Booster II, Cap Booster 800 High Slots Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy MF Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy MF Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy MF Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy MF Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy MF Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy MF Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy MF Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy MF Rig Slots Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Drones Hammerhead II With your changes that all fits, giving you these stats EHP: 231,556 (with slaves this goes to 349k) DPS: 840 Cap Stable with MWD off Sensor Strength: 41.7 Scan Res: 340mm(with your double the scan res change)
Korg Leaf Time Bandits.	Posted - 2010.12.09 10:41:00 - [41] Edited by: Korg Leaf on 09/12/2010 10:46:21 Edited by: Korg Leaf on 09/12/2010 10:44:25 Originally by: Tub Chil Originally by: Edvar They get like 400k plus EHP and 1500+ DPS, anythin more then thats gonna be up to Capital ship level please post fits with 400kk EHP and 1500+ DPS Just think of the standard buffer vindicator and add slaves edit. I think he is refering to the topic in Ships and Modules where they said about doubling dps and ehp of all bs Although using an insanely expensive fit it is almost possible to get those numbers out of the vindicator, best I got without using Officer Mods was 333k ehp and 1448dps
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.12.09 11:42:00 - [42] for full EFT warrior stuff: add dmg implants.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.12.09 13:30:00 - [43] Battleships are fine. Sure there might be some balance issues, but they are far smaller than other balance issues, like SCs. BS are still used alot and you only make them ridiculously overpowered with these ideas.
Sinister Dextor	Posted - 2010.12.09 13:37:00 - [44] The only reason I, and most of the PvP'ers I know, don't fly BS more, is their terrible agility. Certainly for Low sec roaming, a BC or HAC is a much better choice, but I actually am fine with this, BS still have a role, and IMO certainly don't need these types of 'balancing'.
Crazy KSK	Posted - 2010.12.09 13:38:00 - [45] adding scan res yes it would make battleships better and would make me want to fly one more often just because it would get easier to get on kill mails =P increasing the drone bay well maybe a little bit lets say 50m¦ for all BS hulls should be ok and not make them too strong against frigate because the thing is right now that the counter to battleships are indeed frigates PS:after doing some test I think that a increase in drone bay size is probably one of the two best things you can do to buff BS as drones are the main damage source that battleships have against frigates cruisers and especially hacs more slots for tech 1 battleships is a no way ever it would gimp all the faction BS which have more slots I don't know about role bonuses they are I think likely to unbalance things for example what would you give the other tier 2 BS if you give the mega a mwd bonus? jump drives on battleships would take them totally out of normal combat which happens when two moving or roaming fleets meet each other they then would just jump to the pos they want to take down or the gate they want to camp and would avoid all combat that could happen on the way to the target. it would also make it impossible to intercept battleship fleets on the way to the target what I think needs to be done to make battleships more use is to increase speed and agility and at the same reduce it on battle cruisers also battleships be buffed at fighting battle cruisers maybe through increase of signature radius on battle cruisers so the best counter to a BC fleet becomes a BS fleet though tbh I don't see the issue here BS do actually very good at applying dps on BC PS: yes the best thing you can do to BS is buff their agility to make them more mobile PPS:but what I did notice is that BS have not much more dps compared to BS I mean A t2 fitted Armageddon with racial drones and imperial multi does only 435 dps more compared to a harbinger that truly is not much for that you have such a slow ship etc
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2010.12.09 15:11:00 - [46] Originally by: Korg Leaf Originally by: Anubis Xian It's moot, because you wouldn't have the CPU to make it work. You could make a fit for the 8/6/8 baddon requires faction EANM's though Low Slots 1600mm Rolled Tungsten Plate 1600mm Rolled Tungsten Plate 1600mm Rolled Tungsten Plate Damage Control II DB Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane DB Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Adaptive Nano Plating II Heat Sink II Mid Slots Quad-LiF Feuled Booster Rockets I Faint Warp Disruptor Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Scan Res Conjunctive ECCM Radar Medium Cap Booster II, Cap Booster 800 High Slots Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy MF Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy MF Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy MF Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy MF Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy MF Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy MF Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy MF Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy MF Rig Slots Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Drones Hammerhead II With your changes that all fits, giving you these stats EHP: 231,556 (with slaves this goes to 349k) DPS: 840 Cap Stable with MWD off Sensor Strength: 41.7 Scan Res: 340mm(with your double the scan res change) So essentially you've validated my argument for me. Having to use faction mods for the 'overpowered setup' negates using that as a counterpoint to adding more slots. Balance is never done with faction mods on t1 ships. Now if you could find an overpowered setup without using faction, deadspace, or officer... that might hurt my proposal. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. Word of Chaos
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2010.12.09 15:14:00 - [47] Originally by: Furb Killer BS are still used alot and you only make them ridiculously overpowered with these ideas. Again, demonstrate this overpoweredness. All I see is an increase in options along with future whines about not having enough fittings to fit these theoretical OP setups. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. Word of Chaos
Korg Leaf Time Bandits.	Posted - 2010.12.09 15:19:00 - [48] Originally by: Anubis Xian Originally by: Korg Leaf Originally by: Anubis Xian It's moot, because you wouldn't have the CPU to make it work. You could make a fit for the 8/6/8 baddon requires faction EANM's though Low Slots 1600mm Rolled Tungsten Plate 1600mm Rolled Tungsten Plate 1600mm Rolled Tungsten Plate Damage Control II DB Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane DB Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Adaptive Nano Plating II Heat Sink II Mid Slots Quad-LiF Feuled Booster Rockets I Faint Warp Disruptor Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Scan Res Conjunctive ECCM Radar Medium Cap Booster II, Cap Booster 800 High Slots Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy MF Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy MF Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy MF Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy MF Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy MF Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy MF Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy MF Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy MF Rig Slots Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Drones Hammerhead II With your changes that all fits, giving you these stats EHP: 231,556 (with slaves this goes to 349k) DPS: 840 Cap Stable with MWD off Sensor Strength: 41.7 Scan Res: 340mm(with your double the scan res change) So essentially you've validated my argument for me. Having to use faction mods for the 'overpowered setup' negates using that as a counterpoint to adding more slots. Balance is never done with faction mods on t1 ships. Now if you could find an overpowered setup without using faction, deadspace, or officer... that might hurt my proposal. Ok change one of the db eanm's to a tech 2 one and the other to an adaptive nano plating problem solved all fits fine, I think with that change you could probably change the cap booster to a heavy as well
Lykouleon Trust Doesn't Rust	Posted - 2010.12.09 19:17:00 - [49] Originally by: Anubis Xian Debatable since the entire reason ships have different scan res was obsolete for the last six years. Even if every ship ingame was changed to have 500 scan res, they would still lock smaller ships slower than large ships. ...umm...no they wouldn't. Do you understand scan res at all? Quote: I think you are mistaking the drone bay for the drone bandwidth. Your original proposal says drone bay size. I am saying drone bays larger than what they currently are are unbalanced due to ship roles. I'm not mistaking anything. Quote: Most of them would be getting two slots on their nontanking power tier and only one on their tanking tier. Raven would be 8/7/7 for example. Even with the option to tank more, they would still have to sacrifice something they would normally have. If you seriously think a 8/7/7 raven is not OP, you need to get your head examined. Quote: Role Bonuses are meant to specialize an otherwise unspecialized ship, has nothing to do with it being T2 or a capital. No...role bonuses are applied to specialized ships. Lets take the Celestis versus the Arazu. Role bonus on the Arazu, none on the Celestis. Its because the Arazu has a definitive role as a recon ship. Look also at supercaps and their immunity to EWAR. Thats class-specific (erhmm Role Bonus erhmm) Quote: So you want to remove the one built into the Black Ops Battleships? No, since thats a T2 ship and you're specifically talking about re-balancing ALL BS. Quote: I still fly BS in low sec. I hate to pull KB stats, but you're not that great of a BS pilot, even in lowsec... Post with a main with better stats in that regard and I'll gladly rescind that comment. Otherwise, from looking at fits and KB stats, you're BS skillz are sub-par to be openly complaining about them. Quote: ImRedYoureDead > carebearing is when you make the other person's ship explode, right? ImRedYoureDead > I think they're officers or something ImRedYoureDead > they got names, they got to die
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2010.12.09 20:06:00 - [50] Originally by: Lykouleon Originally by: Anubis Xian Debatable since the entire reason ships have different scan res was obsolete for the last six years. Even if every ship ingame was changed to have 500 scan res, they would still lock smaller ships slower than large ships. ...umm...no they wouldn't. Do you understand scan res at all? Yes, I do. Do you? Quote: Quote: I think you are mistaking the drone bay for the drone bandwidth. Your original proposal says drone bay size. I am saying drone bays larger than what they currently are are unbalanced due to ship roles. I'm not mistaking anything. In what way are they unbalancing? Too many replacement drones? Too much variety in the types of drones you can carry? Quote: Quote: Most of them would be getting two slots on their nontanking power tier and only one on their tanking tier. Raven would be 8/7/7 for example. Even with the option to tank more, they would still have to sacrifice something they would normally have. If you seriously think a 8/7/7 raven is not OP, you need to get your head examined. I want examples. Simply saying it does nothing. Simply adding three slots to all BSes does not make them overpowered, for that to happen there would have to be a matching increase in fitting stats. Quote: Quote: Role Bonuses are meant to specialize an otherwise unspecialized ship, has nothing to do with it being T2 or a capital. No...role bonuses are applied to specialized ships. Lets take the Celestis versus the Arazu. Role bonus on the Arazu, none on the Celestis. Its because the Arazu has a definitive role as a recon ship. Look also at supercaps and their immunity to EWAR. Thats class-specific (erhmm Role Bonus erhmm) The ship does not make the role for the ship, the role bonus does. Quote: Quote: So you want to remove the one built into the Black Ops Battleships? No, since thats a T2 ship and you're specifically talking about re-balancing ALL BS. I think all ships should have JDs personally, but I'll settle for just BSes. Quote: Quote: I still fly BS in low sec. I hate to pull KB stats, but you're not that great of a BS pilot, even in lowsec... Post with a main with better stats in that regard and I'll gladly rescind that comment. Otherwise, from looking at fits and KB stats, you're BS skillz are sub-par to be openly complaining about them. This is the only main I have (had) that matters, as for KB stats... what can I say, I never bothered using them till very recently. I still don't see what any of that has to do with the Proposal. And if KBs showed every fight I was in, my record would be better, but they only count kills. I can't tell you how many times I won a fight, but didn't get a kill out of it. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. Word of Chaos
Alexander Third Crystal Industries	Posted - 2010.12.09 21:50:00 - [51] Needed, I love all of the ideas.
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.12.09 22:12:00 - [52] 3 new slots for bs is laughable. Anyone who understands anything about games should know CCP would never do it. So there's no point derailing the threat by arguing that particular issue. Something simple like increased scan res is good - it just that scan res cannot effect how people use battleships in game. Not unless you make it better than bc.
Unit ADA	Posted - 2010.12.09 22:17:00 - [53] One thing I would support is more drone bay for the rokh, its a joke cmon its only 50 m3. Every BS other than the rokh has more than that 75m3+! you can't even put a flight of small and medium drones on it.
Masempa	Posted - 2010.12.09 22:19:00 - [54] Was never sure that any ship class was suppose to be more important than the rest. Personally I would hope ship size classes went through phases that changed every so years of being king of the hill. So maybe in a few years a BS boost might be relevant.
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2010.12.10 00:46:00 - [55] I'm not sure why a little incremental tinkering doesn't get done more often... (i.e. keep turning up rail guns tracking and damage or something) I would support one of your big changes, but don't mess with all the rest. Give all battle ships one more mid, and one more low slot. Do not increase current fitting capacity. The one low slot could give more capacity elsewhere... or just make the ship a bit quicker... making them quicker AND giving them another low slot might over do it... one might not be enought but then again it might be. The mid slot would be extra tank (more for shields athough the extra power there would help active armor fits) or a bit of e-war making that escape option a bit more possible...) alternatively those slots could be used for the tracking or sensor strenght you mentioned. Basically one mid and one low would make battlships a lot more interesting to take more than twice the finacial risk over a bc of basically the same over-all utility (witht he extra vulenerablity factored in).
Atius Tirawa Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2010.12.10 09:34:00 - [56] Battleships don't need changing, Battlecruisers and the overall game mechanic needs changing in order to really make battleships the backbone again. Its a real shame too considering I love my typhoon so much but have not been in one in PvP in so long. -----------
Edvar	Posted - 2010.12.10 10:49:00 - [57] :o
Niklas	Posted - 2010.12.10 17:24:00 - [58] Edited by: Niklas on 10/12/2010 17:34:37 Lower tier BS guns(i.e. duel heavy/250/etc) get.. 50% sig res reduction 33% tracking boost And then, if necessary, a moderate damage reduction. And then a Large Assault launcher that fires heavies. BS instantly become more viable, and the red headed stepchild of turrets gets an actual purpose finally. Two birds with one stone. Tbh, I would also agree with double the sig res. Once the sig/explosion stuff came into effect, it was unnecessary. More drone bay across the board, for all ships, would be nice. Again, a balance that outlived its purpose once the bandwidth mechanic was implemented. More slots? Possibly. I'd make the other changes first and see how it goes from there. Maybe one slot. As for the cost of BS, a general rig rebalance that buffs the rarely used rigs to make them much tastier choices for pvp and pve, instead of trimarks being the best, period, no questions. One other option that I dream of, and will never happen.. -BS get a rather significant fitting stats nerf, so that they can only fit 2-4 large weapons -Rather significant damage bonus to large weapons to account for this -Damage/use bonus applied to all sizes of turrets -Same number of turrets slots The norm would then be 2 or 3 large weapons, and then a couple smalls and meds along with it. Cruisers/BC would get the same treatment ofc.
Nuts Nougat SniggWaffe GoonSwarm	Posted - 2010.12.10 18:02:00 - [59] Something needs to be done either to probes or to minimum warp range. 1) Make cycle longer? I don't like this though, it's hard enough to catch people as it is. Something needs to be done about instant on-grid warpins though. Therefore: 2) Make minimum warp range 250-500km? I'd prefer longer, but any number would be ok, really. Suddenly long range BS are back. Then only thing left is removing 250km lock range limit and fixing rails. Rokh becomes a beast, shooting ** from 300+km away, mega **s everyone in it's range thanks to high dps and good tracking, tempest alpha people left and right from 100km away and apoc already has insane tracking with beams. I have no idea how to fix LR BS though. Currently BC are just plain better. ---
Grut The Protei	Posted - 2010.12.10 18:04:00 - [60] I love the way that if all the changes were made that the OP requested were made despite being hideously imba vs sub caps sc hotdropping. EVE would turn in to nano bs supercap wars. Honestly how can a post about BS balance COMPLETELY ignore hotdropping. FAILFAILFAILFAILFAIL Fix uncounterable cynos and bs get an effective buff, along with small gang play in general. All thats needed is a cynojamming probe for dictors or something. Kinsy > deadman you there? Kinsy > are either of us in pods, becase we dont know... Mostly harmless [ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought

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