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Dobra
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Posted - 2005.01.15 00:19:00 -
[1]
Hi,
Read through the description of this nasty roidkiller.
It says it has a built in veldspar mining crystal. Have anyone tested if it, when mining veldspar, mines more than the 360 stated in the description?
The veldspar mining crystal says it does 162% which would mean that with lvl4 mining barge a medium mining barge should be able to mine 1100 m3 veldspar each minute. Is this correct?
/Dobra |
Aitrus
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Posted - 2005.01.15 06:31:00 -
[2]
I don't think your math is right.
360 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.62 = 1047.9375 m3/cycle (per laser)
So a large barge pulls that per minute with max skills.
Compared to a large barge with Strip miner 1's...
540 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 = 970.3125 m3/cycle (per laser)
Or with a large barge, 970.3125m3 per minute.
So Strip miner II's with crystals give you a whopping 8% more yield than strip miner I's. Just doesn't seem worth the isk for the Strip Miner II's and crystals (which decay and must be replaced)
(just for comparison, the Miner II is a 50% yield increase over the Miner I. I would expect a similar yield increase between the Strip Miners)
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Sewell
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Posted - 2005.01.15 10:56:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Aitrus
I don't think your math is right.
360 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.62 = 1047.9375 m3/cycle (per laser)
x1.62 is a 62% increase; a 162% increase will be x2.62, so:
360 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 2.62 = 1694,8125
Or maybe that is to good to be true...
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Ravenslock
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Posted - 2005.01.15 11:03:00 -
[4]
1600m3/cycle is right if my calculations are right, as 162.5% increese is x2.625
but the built in mining crystal don't work
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Tas Devil
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Posted - 2005.01.15 12:10:00 -
[5]
I'd advise caution it wouldn't be the first time CCP made an error saying a 1xx % increase when they mean a xx% increase... 162% seems so damn much an increase I think its 62,5%...
CCP logic defies most accepted logic... its the golden rule of eve ...
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Aitrus
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Posted - 2005.01.15 12:20:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Sewell
Originally by: Aitrus
I don't think your math is right.
360 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.62 = 1047.9375 m3/cycle (per laser)
x1.62 is a 62% increase; a 162% increase will be x2.62, so:
360 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 2.62 = 1694,8125
Or maybe that is to good to be true...
That would be a 75% increase over the Strip Miner I. Sounds too good to be true. (But I hope you're right!)
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Mari Y'Tuk
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Posted - 2005.01.15 15:52:00 -
[7]
don;t forget that 162.5% is for the tech1 crystals
tech2 Crystal BPO's are already in game, thou i've yet to see the stats on one.
With tech1 Crystals costing between 9 and 125k (veld and Ark respectively), Decay isn't that much of an issue
And 8% extra isn't to be scoffed at, if its not 75% extra and who knows how much extra tech2?
the 100% morphite crystals make litle sense if the former...
My Production Spreadsheet, Most T1 Bp data, Located here. |
Mercade
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Posted - 2005.01.15 20:05:00 -
[8]
This is my interpretation of the math.
It states you have a 360 mining amount and a 360 specialty mining amount. And the crystals say a bonus to specialty amount.
So I think it looks like this.
360+(360*1.625) that is your base with the crystal 945
945*1.25*1.25*1.15= 1680.47m3 per Strip II w/crystal per 3 minutes. or since there are 3 that is the yield for the barge per minute.
Now it also says there's a 50% volatility and 2% damage on crystals. So what that makes me think is every other run you will take damage and after 50 damage strikes you lose your crystal. So that's an estimated 100 cycles x 3 minutes or 300 minutes of run time. Which is actually not bad. 5 hours is a good op. Not an inconveniently short amount of time but also if you plan on using strip II's you will have had to plan on having crystals.
I hope that is the right measurement of lasting time.
A strip I we know yields at best 970m3 so in comparison you're getting 727m3 bonus every laser every 3 minutes for 100 runs. or a bonus of 72773m3 per crystal of ore.
Now what I want to know is how stupidly people plan on pricing these crystals. Unlike ammo expendables which have a cost associated with the protection of your ship, this is a purely financial endeavor. And it has, going with above assumptions, a visible max return.
I can't honestly see anyone selling crystals to people who actually take the time to figure out their return, for anything more then 50% of the value of that amount of the corresponding ore. Even that I believe is conservatively high seeing as the inconvenience of getting crystals and maintaining them will discourage sales. People won't want to spend the weeks upon weeks of refinery training etc to use a crystal and then pay 75% of their bonus back to purchasing the crystal.
But then again this is just my assumption.
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Mari Y'Tuk
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Posted - 2005.01.15 21:24:00 -
[9]
Browsing through the item database i found the following.
Strip Miner II's cannot fit mercoxit crystals
thats means they can only be used by MDCM II
they also unlike every other type only provide 100% bonus.
Hence if the formula was 120*1, it would make the crystal pointless
From this i would have to assume its the other forumla
My Production Spreadsheet, Most T1 Bp data, Located here. |
Sollytear
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Posted - 2005.01.15 22:29:00 -
[10]
U understand this Doc? :) I certainly dont hehe! but i geuss i will need 2 re-read it a few more times cause i want to start mining again 1day
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Rattman
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Posted - 2005.01.15 22:58:00 -
[11]
I skipped over the maths. the modulated strip does not appear to have a mining crystal in it.
When I tested one about 3 weeks ago, even when mining veld the m3 mined was in less than a t1 strip miner.
Hopefully when the t1 crystals become available in tuesday's patch as we have been told these things will be usefull
All opinions, rambling or not, expressed here are my own and not that of my corp or alliance |
Dobra
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Posted - 2005.01.16 14:03:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Sollytear
U understand this Doc? :) I certainly dont hehe! but i geuss i will need 2 re-read it a few more times cause i want to start mining again 1day
It's okay, you don't have to understand. I would never have so high hopes on you ;-).
And when the patch comes out with the new crystals and I can try them out I will explain in full detail for you.
/Dobra |
Alexis Fontaine
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Posted - 2005.01.16 17:07:00 -
[13]
the yield for plag t2 crystal is 175%, volatility 50%, volatility dmg 0.05.
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Dobra
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Posted - 2005.01.24 11:09:00 -
[14]
Since these are sold today I still want to know what they actually do.
How much do they mine per minute and are they as good as I thought?
/Dobra |
Amara Takani
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Posted - 2005.01.24 13:38:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Amara Takani on 24/01/2005 13:39:40
You all didn't read the attribute very well, did you? 
Sorry, sorry no offense It's not your fault, but CCP likes it to confuse us players 
The attributes sometimes state percent values and sometimes multipliers ingame. But sometimes it states multipliers with a percent sign at the end, which sometimes confuses the players 
It states "1.625 %". Do you see the "." there? It's only an multiplier of "1.625" and not "162.5 %". So you don't get a resulting multiplier of "2.625" because it's already a multiplier of "1.625"
This misstating of multipliers and percentages you can also find on other mods such as tracking mods and so on.
So your absolute advantage with a mining crystal is:
360*1.625 = 585 (Modulated Base)/540 (Strip I Base) = 1.0833.. = 8,333... %
All other is like somebody else sayd "To good to be true!".
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Tas Devil
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Posted - 2005.01.24 15:44:00 -
[16]
Amara....
Didn't I make that point like 10 posts above yours ????
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Dobra
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Posted - 2005.01.24 16:17:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Amara Takani
Edited by: Amara Takani on 24/01/2005 13:39:40
You all didn't read the attribute very well, did you?
It states "1.625 %". Do you see the "." there? It's only an multiplier of "1.625" and not "162.5 %". So you don't get a resulting multiplier of "2.625" because it's already a multiplier of "1.625"
Actually it states
"asteroid specialisation yield modifier
162,5 %"
That is OneHundredSixtyTwoPointFivePercent.
Not OnePointSixhundredTwentyFive.
And I still want to hear from someone that actually tried this badass and can tell me real values of how much it mines.
/Dobra |
Mining Maxx
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Posted - 2005.01.24 16:23:00 -
[18]
Hi,
Quote:
It states "1.625 %". Do you see the "." there? It's only an multiplier of "1.625" and not "162.5 %". So you don't get a resulting multiplier of "2.625" because it's already a multiplier of "1.625"
Sorry, but either this has been fixed in a recent patch or someone must have other attributes...
Mining crystals clearly say "Asteroid Specialisation Yield Modifier 162 %" now - no decimal dot or anything alike.
Given this attribute text it has to be assumed it gives a yield of 360 x 1.62 or 162% the base yield.
However, there is still some confusion i think... why are there 2 bonuses anyway? the miner itself says 360 base amount and 360 specialty mining crystal amount, PLUS the crystal tells about 162% - isnt anyone else wondering which ones actually apply to it?
I doubt its base + specialty + character bonus + crystal bonus as this would result in
(360+360) * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.62
which seems just a little bit too much, indeed.
The same confusion exists about modulated deep core miners where the miner speaks of 120 base amount, 120 specialty mining crystal amount and again the mining crystals show 162% yield modifier.
Its interesting how few OFFICIAL statements there are from any devs to clear up this mess as there is obviously the need to do so.
Sadly i must admit, CCP did their best to confuse people with such attribute matters since the early beginning as they started to mix up multiplicators, modifiers and fixed bonuses like there was no tomorrow in many items. Some items give 10% bonus, very similar items show 1.11 multipliers and the worst are those showing those mentioned 1.1% multipliers...
PLEASE DECIDE WHICH WAY YOU NAME YOUR ATTRIBUTES, USE A SINGLE NOTATION FOR ALL ;(
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Dobra
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Posted - 2005.01.24 16:44:00 -
[19]
Just made one calculation and this makes a bit sense.
(large mining barge)
(360x1,25x1,25x1,12)+(360*1,625) = 1215
1215 m3/ cycle is 25% better than the normal Strip Miner I.
And 25% is a good amount and still not insane.
/Dobra |
Mining Maxx
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Posted - 2005.01.24 17:34:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Mining Maxx on 24/01/2005 17:42:05
Hi,
@Dobra:
True... this would sound rather rational... all we need is a single, short confirmation by CCP now ;)
And maybe their promise to make such separate bonuses (on mining yield in general and on the specialisation yield separately) better understandable...
Something i forgot to ask... has anyone seen any OFFICIAL explanation of the volatility and damage modifiers (i.e. no speculation)?
From the name itself I would think the volatility describes some amount of ore being wasted during mining, e.g. an asteroid with 1000 units only gives 990 if it was a 1% volatility, but this cant be true as the value found in mining xtals is acutally 50%, can it?
And what describes the volatility damage, the crystal? The miner? and is it repairable or doe it need replacement if not?
Sorry if that has been answered somewhere else already... as we still have no xtals to play with I cant find out myself which I usually prefer when a real documentation is missing (like so often these days).
Regards...
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Mining Maxx
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Posted - 2005.02.01 21:10:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Mining Maxx on 01/02/2005 21:12:06
Hi,
ok, now that the tech1 crystals are here its sorted.
most of the confusion was because of the 2 separate yield attributes in the miner specs. just ignore that and you're fine.
here's a quick table showing all the yields with maxxed out skills:
(yield / formula / seconds)
miner2:
93.75 / 60 x 1.25 x 1.25 / 60
modulated deep core miner 2 without specialisation crystal:
187.5 / 120 x 1.25 x 1.25 / 180 (AKA 66% yield of the miner2)
modulated deep core miner 2 with tech 1 specialisation crystal:
303.5 / 120 x 1.25 x 1.25 x 1.62 / 180 (AKA 108% yield of the miner2)
modulated deep core miner 2 with tech 2 specialisation crystal:
328.125 / 120 x 1.25 x 1.25 x 1.75 / 180 (AKA 116% yield of the miner2)
strip miner I:
970.3125 / 540 x 1.25 x 1.25 x 1.15 / 180
modulated strip miner II without specialisation crystal:
646.875 / 360 x 1.25 x 1.25 x 1.15 / 180 (AKA 66% of the strip miner I)
modulated strip miner II with tech1 specialisation crystal:
1048 / 360 x 1.25 x 1.25 x 1.15 x 1.62 / 180 (AKA 108% of the strip miner I)
modulated strip miner II with tech2 specialisation crystal:
1132 / 360 x 1.25 x 1.25 x 1.15 x 1.75 / 180 (AKA 116% of the strip miner I)
after all the numbers are worse than i hoped... unless those miners drop to a very low price they*re really not worth going for in my opinion.
the cap use reduction might sound interesting, but its not really like spending many millions for 8% more yield and less cap use when the old miners ran fine with the cap anyway sounds reasonable ;)
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voidvim
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Posted - 2005.02.01 23:42:00 -
[22]
I hope people ask them selfs when by modualted miner II & strip miners, how long will it take me to make my isk back compared to the non-modulated version plus crystals cost. With the normal cycle most people who brought the furst Miner II at their stupid price are still better off with tech I (or named) isk wise.
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Swedish Bob
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Posted - 2005.02.02 00:12:00 -
[23]
Not only is the isk cost very bad, the skill cost is horrible too. Two more level 5 skills are needed since you need mining 5 and refining 5 to even use a veld crystal. Thats in addition to needing industry 5 to even get in the barge. And the difference between a T1 and T2 crystal skill wize is practically nothing.
I think barges need a bit of a rebalance.
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Mining Maxx
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Posted - 2005.02.02 03:13:00 -
[24]
Hi,
well, one issue might still need some better explanation...
What about the volatility and volatility damage in detail?
What does it mean?
I suppose the damage is done to the mining crystal during operation.. but in what time? Is it per cycle? can it be repaired? will the crystal be 100% efficient until it drops to 100% damage?
And the volatility... does it mean you waste 50% of the amount an asteroid has of the desired ore?
While this might not matter for low end ore in empire, such an issue surely should be considered when you practise housekeeping or "roid farming" in deep 0.0.
A definite and clear explanation on these 2 attributes would not only be nice... i would assume this is a very important information people should not have to search for and maybe not find a real answer until they try over a long time.
I doubt there'll be an answer in time, so i'm already planning to do some testing myself, but its a shame such new issues lack so much information. its not the first time new technological inventions are poorly explained and it really is time CCP goes for some changes.
It's usually players who teach other players most of the basics of the latest inventions - and they learned it by trial and error. This doesnt seem right, but maybe i'm just wrong ;)
Regards, and have fun with your mining crystals... after weeks of speculation we finally know about the yield, in a matter of days we should know all about the damage and waste, too. I'm just scared every new invention will take longer and longer before people actually know all they need to use the items - sadly enough its usually after they spent remarkable amounts of cash just to realize it doesnt pay off as expected.
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Phades
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Posted - 2005.02.02 10:13:00 -
[25]
The deep core miner 2 with the mercoxite 2 crystals should be a rather nice setup for mining that ore. It doesnt really compare to the volume of a strip miner mining another type of ore, but it would appear to be part of a much needed boost to mining that particular ore if what ive been reading about the difficulties of mining mercoxite are true.
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Vaar
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Posted - 2005.02.02 13:28:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Mining Maxx
Edited by: Mining Maxx on 01/02/2005 21:12:06
Hi,
ok, now that the tech1 crystals are here its sorted.
most of the confusion was because of the 2 separate yield attributes in the miner specs. just ignore that and you're fine.
here's a quick table showing all the yields with maxxed out skills:
(yield / formula / seconds)
miner2:
93.75 / 60 x 1.25 x 1.25 / 60
modulated deep core miner 2 without specialisation crystal:
187.5 / 120 x 1.25 x 1.25 / 180 (AKA 66% yield of the miner2)
modulated deep core miner 2 with tech 1 specialisation crystal:
303.5 / 120 x 1.25 x 1.25 x 1.62 / 180 (AKA 108% yield of the miner2)
modulated deep core miner 2 with tech 2 specialisation crystal:
328.125 / 120 x 1.25 x 1.25 x 1.75 / 180 (AKA 116% yield of the miner2)
strip miner I:
970.3125 / 540 x 1.25 x 1.25 x 1.15 / 180
modulated strip miner II without specialisation crystal:
646.875 / 360 x 1.25 x 1.25 x 1.15 / 180 (AKA 66% of the strip miner I)
modulated strip miner II with tech1 specialisation crystal:
1048 / 360 x 1.25 x 1.25 x 1.15 x 1.62 / 180 (AKA 108% of the strip miner I)
modulated strip miner II with tech2 specialisation crystal:
1132 / 360 x 1.25 x 1.25 x 1.15 x 1.75 / 180 (AKA 116% of the strip miner I)
after all the numbers are worse than i hoped... unless those miners drop to a very low price they*re really not worth going for in my opinion.
the cap use reduction might sound interesting, but its not really like spending many millions for 8% more yield and less cap use when the old miners ran fine with the cap anyway sounds reasonable ;)
Have you tested this actually? I read the crystals as 162%/175% INCREASE so the multipliers would than be 2.62 and 2.75 and not as stated above.
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Mining Maxx
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Posted - 2005.02.02 17:57:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Mining Maxx on 02/02/2005 18:07:30
Hi,
first of all, yes i have tested it...
second, you are wrong and it doesnt require a test actually if you think about it...
100% of 10 are 10...
150% of 10 are 15...
its 100%+50%... you must not read it as PLUS 150%..
its a difference to say 150% of a yield or to say yield plus 150%.
just as a reminder.. and if you read the previous posts in this thread you will see that most ppl agreed on this mathematical fact. The only problem is that ccp uses to mix up bonuses, modifiers and multiplicators a lot in various item attributes and as a result people get confused.
so based on what is commonly used to name added or multiplied bonuses
a 162% modifier equals a multiplication with 1.62 as it is 162% of the original value of whatever kind.
a 162% bonus would ADD (or like you called it INCREASE) 162% to it, which would be a modifier of 2.62
a multiplier of 1.62 (well doesnt apply here... you find this e.g. on tracking mods etc.) is pretty self explaining.
once you get your first miner you will see that the numbers match exactly.
i bought a mdcm2 just to make sure the yield mentioned twice in the miner specs are understood properly. and while at it i plugged a crystal in and verified the result.
Hope it helped...
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Mining Maxx
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Posted - 2005.02.02 18:16:00 -
[28]
Quote:
The deep core miner 2 with the mercoxite 2 crystals should be a rather nice setup for mining that ore. It doesnt really compare to the volume of a strip miner mining another type of ore, but it would appear to be part of a much needed boost to mining that particular ore if what ive been reading about the difficulties of mining mercoxite are true.
Well, not sure if you really want to waste money on a crystal.
There is still some confusion at my place regarding mercoxit mining.
The modulated depp core miner 2 is told to have a mercoxit crystal built in. so, would another crystal still work and increase the yield even more? if so its definitely a glitch in the logics... if not, why make mercoxit crystals at all?
lets assume it doesnt work with tech1 crystals... then a tech 2 crystal would only give you a few percent more yield over the plain miner... the difference would be 175% compare to the built in (?) 162%... not a big difference.. but i dont expect the built in crystal to get damaged like the optional ones do.
And like i stated.. the fact that for some reason there doesnt seem to be a tech1 mercoxit crystal bpo on market seems to underline this assumption. It appears to exist on market only because ccp decided tech2 items always have to require the appropriate tech1 item for production. what if the tech1 item actually seems not to be useful at all?
anyway, i would go and test this.. but for once mercoxit crystals are RARE and people ask ridiculous prices because of it.. and then in this special case only mining some mercoxit with and without crystal would really clear the matter - and i cba to move to deep 0.0 and get blown up because someone forgot to explain something properly ;)
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MiloMorai
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Posted - 2005.02.02 20:52:00 -
[29]
All I know is the large barge with strip I's wtfpwns belts in a short time.
'Nuff said.
I collect ships. Can I have yours? |
Vaar
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Posted - 2005.02.02 21:10:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Mining Maxx
first of all, yes i have tested it...
That's all I wanted to know. Thanks for the info anyways.
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