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 Merell    |
Posted - 2003.06.29 23:09:00 -
[1] There are several issues in EVE that needs addressing and I've realized that CCP will not be able to fix many of them for a long time to come or they will not address them at all since that is the way they want the game to function so I currently don't see any reason to keep playing. Travel is the major timesink in EVE, this is also the main reason that I'm canceling my account. I've tried playing this game in all the ways I can come up with. Trying everything from manufacturing to pirate hunting. And there is one thing that all the ways of playing EVE has in common, execpt for being a PC Pirate that camps a gate. That is that you spend almost all your time in this game traveling. Unless you are mining ofcourse, then you spend a little more time staring at a rock then in warp. And travel should take time, or the universe will stop feeling big. The is actually not feeling as big anymore. I have often had to travel 10-20jumps and the entire Univers in EVE isn't more than maybe 80-100 jumps wide, and that's maybe 2-3h of traveling. Aproximatly the time I have to spend traveling each day I've played anyway. So it was a long time ago that going anywere would have feelt like an exciting endevor, now I would just quickly calulate how much time it will take to go there. I would even like to see that it took even longer to travel, I just wished I didn't have to do so much of it. A lvl2 agent that gives you a mission that's 10 jumps away and pays you 14k isk for the job isn't fun. It's a waste of time. A friend of mine that was in the beta also came over to my place, we where just going out for something to eat, but when he came here I was in the middle of something so I was just going back to the station I considered home at the moment and he looked over my shoulder saying. -"So that's still all you do in this game, look at your ship in warp." I think that was when I realized that what he was saying is true. That's all I'm ever doing in this game. And it isn't any fun there is just to much dead time in this game. A game shouldn't be designed in a way that makes you want to play other games while playing it. Or read books/watch movies for that part. So I started creating Insta Jump and Insta dock bookmarks to reduce the time I spend in space. And in a way that even made it worse, I still spend almost all the time warping, but now I don't even see other people in this game. The solution I would like to se to this problem is a compacting of space, everything CCP has done so far have just forced everyone to travel more and more. And I don't see this trend changeing anytime soon. And as a side note m0o have never been a problem for me because of those bookmarks. And for everyone what has been complaining about the m0o, I have traveled thru both Mara and Passari a couple of times during the last couple of weeks when it's been clear of PC Pirates so anyone could have made bookmarks like I did and passed thru the blockade safely after that. Everything around travel also has problems. Right now if you don't want to be caught you can't be. The only thing that can kill you once you get a hang of how this system works is lag or bugs. I have also warped into and out again without the PC Pirates even locking on to my ship, but that is mostly thanks to that I have a new computer and a good connection. This is a very serious issue that has to be addressed, no one should be able to se and destroy your ship until you have a chance to defend your self. I've read stories about people that warps to a location and when the jump in lag is released they are in a pod. Now that's a lot of fun, isn't it? The entire system for fighting is flawed or even broken. Just take the modules, it should be obvious that stacked modules should give less and less gain, not more. If you today put on two modules that give a 20% bonus you will get an extra 20% bonus to the first bonus giving a higher value than 40%. The natural way to implement systems like this that springs to mind when I think about it is to use a logaritmic scale first module 20% 2:10% 3:5% 4:2% 5:1% 6:1% a.s.o. I've read a lot of people complaining that PC Pirates don't pick fair fights. I understand that nobody likes getting attacked and ground to dust. But get real people, only a madman would pick a fair fight. Especially in this game when you loose so much when you die. It should self evident that people in EVE are only going to pick fights they know they can win, unless they don't have any other choice. And this will never change, as long as the system allows generally weak and porly equiped players these will be the first choice targets. These are also the only targets that will be caught, because the more seasoned players doesn't get caught unless the lags or they tripp on a bug. And CCP, aslong as it's possible to travel into "safe" space and pod a n00b this will happen. That's just how it works. If you don't want this to happen you have to make i |
 Merell |
Posted - 2003.06.29 23:12:00 -
[2] Oh, there is a size limit to posts. ;-) And CCP, aslong as it's possible to travel into "safe" space and pod a n00b this will happen. That's just how it works. If you don't want this to happen you have to make it impossible. That is the only solution, and the current buffed police still haven't killed any real PC Pirates, only normal players that makes misstakes. And it seems that the diffrent ship types have no strategical value. The only reason anyone is in a Frigate is that they coudln't afford a Cruiser yet. And if in a Cruiser it's because you can't afford a Battleship yet. Frigates are also used for missions where the ship has to be expendable. Like if you are picking up a new cruiser. The current setups are very inbalanced, people with the right setups will blow a highend cruiser up in seconds. And on top of that there is supposed to be introduced even better stuff and items with Tech Lvl 2. The current imbalance is ok aslong as we are talking PvE, then some nrefs could be enough for makeing it seem ok. But with PvP it's a disaster. And wars? Why wage war for any other reason than a personal grudge. There are no resources or tech worth fighting for. What I wanted to play was Elite 2003, but the market is the next biggest problem with EVE after the traveling times. I would say that the Market was the biggest problem, but it's the traveling times that is killing EVE for me. The only way to sell anything today is dropping the price till you hit NPC mineral values, because the NPC mineral orders are the only real demand there is in EVE. And to fix the problem with the extreamly low demand the currently suggested solution is to remove the power to produce from people. This isn't the first time the players are forced to play the game in ways that we don't want to. I'm convinced that the only way to create a good working market is to introduce complex production as I suggested in another thread. (The basic Idea is that a complex item like a starship or a station would have parts that has to be produced in steps. Thus makeing it such a huge task to produce all components inhouse that even large corps like TTI would chose to buy stuff of the market instead). This would also encourage more player interaction, something that Also wear and stuff like fuel should need constant replenishing, not so much that it would feel hopeless to make money, but still enough to create a basic market for consumer goods. And if a ship is damaged in battle repairs should only fix so much. Lots of diffrent modules on ships like f.i. lifesupport components can't be repaired to 100% function. You should have to get replacement parts after a while. The current market interface also lacks rudimentary functions like order depth and seeing what company/individual is the seller. And staying ahead in the tech race should cost both time and money, with the current system it gets harder and harder for new players to catch up all the time. It should be the other way around, it should get easier and easier. But now you can't even get officespace in central sytems anymore. It's clear to me now that EVE a very unfinnished product, it's like releasing word without a dictionary and a print function. From my point of view EVE is a very stable game, and for a while I confused that with a notion that the game was ready. But it's not! Maybe they should even have waited another year. There are several other parts of the game that needs addressing, but the major problems now are: 1 - Travel Times 2 - No demand, Market 3 - Fighting PvE & PvP |
 Torval Sontu |
Posted - 2003.06.29 23:17:00 -
[3] Bye Merrell |
 cyberpir8 |
Posted - 2003.06.29 23:35:00 -
[4] bahahahahahahaa nice pic :) |
 Xanif |
Posted - 2003.06.29 23:41:00 -
[5] Torval, you are an idiot. His concerns are valid and while I do not have the necessary information to comment on the travel time one and I disagree with the weapon stacking comment, the other concerns are not only valid, but something I and alot of people agree on. So grow up. @Merell-That was not a rant, that was one of the first good posts I have seen in a long time. It is too bad that the only people with maturity are the ones who are leaving. Don't pull a Neocron. One of the main reasons they are going belly up is the player community. Don't flame, it is stupid. There is no post count to pad anymore. Edited by: Xanif on 29/06/2003 23:41:55 |
 Staggita |
Posted - 2003.06.29 23:56:00 -
[6] I agree with you 100%. I finally quit DAOC and EQ because in the end-game those games are time spent mostly camping the same MOBs. When I saw EVE and did some research I thought this would be an exciting change: no camping. Little did I know that I would be camping a rock. Or worst yet, the time spent warping/jumping. I wish there was a way to get a refund...sheesh I spent almost an extra $100 for a video card upgrade just to play this game. I will, however, congratulate CCP on the excellent graphics and sound this title provides. Without a doubt, EVE is one of the most visually satisfying games ever. The ambient music is top-notch as well. In fact the visual and auditory environment you created makes this title almost worth playing by themselves. (Except: Why do the suns shine through the planets, asteroids, and stations? That was distracting) I shall end my rant with this recommendation: Give the players a motive for assuming their characters role. Making money is a role for real life, we do it every day...I don't want to have to make money in my games... Thanks for the opportunity to explore your universe. Respectfully, Shawn |
Vacuole |
Posted - 2003.06.30 00:02:00 -
[7] Well, I have lots of fun. |
 nono |
Posted - 2003.06.30 00:05:00 -
[8] Well at least he hasn't been told "Don't let the door hit you on the way out" yet. The trouble with that statement (and yes I'm sure someone will post it) is the door has been knocked clean off it's hinges by people getting out. Excellent post and certainly not a whine thread. As for those that will dispute there is much to do in this game and that the player base is growing I can only say I hope your right and I'm glad you enjoy the game, at least for now until you hit the realization others have. The numbers we see on the login board and from Eve-I are just that. Numbers. No way to verify if they are real or fudged. If there was a drastic drop-off you can bet your last dollar damage control would take over and hide that fact from all of us. Where are the tens of thousands the dreamers keep saying are coming? Maybe they are there and only play one hour a day and log off as others log on, so we see no real increase. The game finally released in other countries. Ones that were waiting for it. France and Australia are all that quickly come to mind and yet there is no huge increase in online activity. In fact I think there has been a drop. With the increased LAG and bounce in the last two weeks (today being quite the joke)one would think the server population has doubled. It's just as bad with 2500 online. Speculation would say they have downsized thier bandwidth to save cash having not used what they thought they would need. The downside to this is the same player base now has less bandwidth then they had before resulting in....LAG and bounce. *sigh* |
Setec |
Posted - 2003.06.30 00:09:00 -
[9] Your concerns are short-sighted and you exaggerate every problem. ___________________________________________ Space Invaders website: http://www.si-corp.net |
nono |
Posted - 2003.06.30 00:28:00 -
[10] What?? No door on the way out routine Setec? Just because I said someone would (you) doesn't mean you have to deprive yourself. Go for it. Come on man you know you want to. |
 MaiLina KaTar |
Posted - 2003.06.30 00:36:00 -
[11] All I can say is I have a lot of fun with the game and while lots of your points are indeed valid they donŠt seem as bad to me as you make them look. Lots of things in the game need improvement but those improvements will come and IMO the devs have proven more than once that they have the skill, dedication and passion to get it done. My opinion about PvP: Sure, there are many imbalances in PvP and to be honest IŠm not satisfied with the PvP aspect of the game at all. For me it pretty much boils down to the point you mentioned about ship-classes. YouŠre totally right at the moment itŠs the simple rule of thumb: Get bigger ship, get better guns, win. But let me also mention that I believe that you CANŠT balance a PvP system like this in a beta. This needs time and a LOT of tweaks and those tweaks will come so after all IŠm not worried about it. Mai's Idealog |
 M0RPHEUS |
Posted - 2003.06.30 01:39:00 -
[12] well, i think i agree with a few things in that post. A) Trade goods must be implemented more into the game instead of having NPC demand. B) Ships, and Pvp in general needs to be tuned, i realy dont like the bigger=stronger idea. Ask me nicely and I won't pod you... |
Setec |
Posted - 2003.06.30 02:00:00 -
[13]
No, the "door on the way out" routine is reserved for idiots who come here to spam up the forums with non-constructive, poorly written *****ing. I disagree with this guy's post and I think several of his points are poorly thought out or missing important considerations, but he at least expressed his problems as well-written constructive criticism. The "door on the way out" routine is for useless posts by whiny idiots trolling for sympathy. This guy's post had some merit. ___________________________________________ Space Invaders website: http://www.si-corp.net |
Ilia Volyova |
Posted - 2003.06.30 02:01:00 -
[14] Ver accurate analysis, Merell. Hope the devs learn a little from it. I'm quite curious how Eve will be in 1-2 months, I'm beginning to doubt that the collapsing economy can be saved. You cna get now Moas for only 7.5 Mil :( My company has basically stopped the selling of ships because the hassle to get the lowend mins (trit, pyr, mex) is just not worth the small profit from selling them. |
 Merell |
Posted - 2003.06.30 09:40:00 -
[15] Xanif: When I saw Torval post I first thought, oh dear did I come of so bad. So I read thru it all again, I could have improved it at many points but my main aim was to present an argument and recieve some feedback from other players, thank you. Staggita: I agree holeheartedly with you, players should be motivated to act in a way, not forced to. Vacuole: I also had a lot of fun for a while. nono: If you have followed the charts in EVE-I.com you might also have noticed that when there is an unexpected downtime 5-10% of the playerbase disaperes, my guess is that those are AFK players. Mainly AFK-miners, I know I did my share of that. And if you exaggerate the meaning of that and draw unsupported conclusions you might draw the conclusion that the growth during the last 3 weeks have only been people starting to use alt chars more and more. Setec: You are quite right I tend to exaggerate, that way it's easier to place more focus on a single problem. But I still think traveltimes are a very big problem, as I said, I have no problem with traveltimes in them selfs, I just wish I didn't have to do so much of it. MaiLina: One of my concerns about fighting is that it might not be possible to change the game mechanics enough to f.i. make supporing frigates helpfull in an attack. Except as cannonfodder that is) The first thing I loved about EVE was that all players could play together, a new player would still contribute when playing with seasoned players. But this might not be true in combat. But the fighting will be balanced over time, I'm just not sticking around to see it happen. But I might check back in here next spring to se what has happened. |
 Ironbuck |
Posted - 2003.06.30 11:16:00 -
[16] some of you people who are complaining really need to get a bit of imagination, and have a reality check. First name an online game which doesnt require big tedious travel times, whats the aternative we can all go anywhere we like in 10 mins that would suck very badly, everything would be discovered in a week and there would be no such concept of non empire space. Secondly get some friends (im not being sarcastic, im being serious) i cut down on travel and mining tedium by being a member of a decent friendly corp with people online who i chat with to pass the time. Also not everything is boring in this game , only boring people get bored :) And frigates are helpful !! my friend was helping me kill pirates in his frigate the other day (i was in cruiser) he was able to draw their fire away from me and get to their loot quicker, end of the day of course frigates are weaker than cruisers. You people who complain about frigates being crap need to stand back and view what they are from a distance. THEY ARE EQUIPTMENT not a god given right, and like in every rpg type game the more expensive the equiptment the more kick ass hard it is, i would be pretty annoyed and very dissapointed if i bought a 7 mill rupture to be taken out by a Probe ?!?! wouldnt you ??? Edited by: Ironbuck on 30/06/2003 11:20:58 |
 Chai N'Dorr |
Posted - 2003.06.30 11:30:00 -
[17] Some valid points, but you forget that some people play for the thrill. Last night I ran into my first PvP and later PC Pirates confrontation... in my Slasher. Sure, I can buy a Rifter, train Cruiser skills, but to me that is just not fun. Man, my blood was pumping yesterday when two guys got a lock on me because I was near the container where they died. Still pumping when the Red Corsairs jumped in the system and blockaded it. Would I be worried in a Cruiser? Perhaps against the RC's (had a nice chat with one of them), not against those two in Stabbers (they were still a wee bit upset for losing a Cruiser to the RC's). Not everyone plays to have the coolest ships and baddest items. I'm an underdog player. Sure, I might get whiped now and then, but for me the thrill is part of the chase. |
Chagidiel |
Posted - 2003.06.30 11:57:00 -
[18] Acctually, i think Merral has a good and valid post, only its about all mmorpg there is, rather then just EVE. Travel: All mmorpg games includes a laaaarge world. Cause thats what players wants, right? But then you have to travel through the large world, and suddenly the game either becomes boring due to looooong travel times, or youŠll have to find a way making travel faster. But when you make travel faster, then the world will stop feeling large. A catch 22 if I ever saw one. Market: Now, we have to remember, that eve has given us the most complex market yet, in a game. Heres a game, that spent a considerble amount of energy on creating a working market, and it still arent working ok. Ship market is down through the floor, and people are selling ammunition at extremly low profits. I (and this is my opinion, nothing less, nothing more) would say that we wont see any game putting more effort into the market then eve, so we wont get a better game then this in some future to come. Also, the market are going down, due to the one thing CCP cant control. The players. Kids, uneducated and uneconomic people will always be around, and most of them will always sell things at a minimum profit, which will make the market go crash. This wont happen in real life, because people doing like that in RL goes bancrupt or dont have the nerv to put theire own money at risk. In a game, however, those fears doesnt apply. Noone has anything real to loose, and nobody really has to care if they only make 0,1 isk profit from a bullet, since theire corp wont go bancrupt nomatter what happends. I dont think these problems can be solved, unless you manage to fit the whole realworld into a program, and I doubt and hopes, that wont happend, ever. Finnally, fighting: In every game where fighting are allowd, youll get those kind of people, playing during extrem amounts of times, and using it all, to optimizing theire skills/ship/equpiment. More often then not, they are optimizing, to the verge of exploiting. Quite often its kids, or unemployed which has an infinite amount of time to do so as well. As I see it, you can only balancing those groups of people away, by either: * Making every fight be like a game of chess, which obvisouly makes the action go away. * Making the fights result be determined by pure chans, which aint that fun, now is it? * Asking the people in question play with one of theire hands tied to theire backs. When you have a game with skills and equpiment in it, you can really only go 2 ways. Either all equipment will be diffent good, in which case you end up with the optimizing people always having the best there is, because they got the time to get it. Or you could let all euipment be equally good, in which case it wont be any reson to get another pice of equipment, then the one you already have. Now, my point is, that these kind of problems will always be around. You can either play this game, or move on to the next one, and getting disapointed again, at these factors. |
 Kiran |
Posted - 2003.06.30 12:15:00 -
[19] Well I am having fun with the game. After playing Dark Age of Camelot, EQ and UO. This game for me is a whole lot more fun. In DAOC you teleport into the frontiers or run for an hour in your own just to be zapped at by a group of mages or assassinated by a rogue, you die release then run back again. EQ you spend months camping that rare spawn point for just one item. In UO you fight in pvp and the looser is the one who runs out of bandages first. In Eve it can take up to 5 years to train all the skills. The end game is a long way off, and also its still relativly new on the market. With alot of stuff still not in the game yet, but its coming. For me this game is great as I can train and make money by putting stuff on the market without actualy being on line and so keep up with my friends in game and have a full time job. And its such a relife that I dont have to camp a cyclops in the desert for 3 months like I did in EQ to just get the last item on the quest list. Those that have played EQ know what I am talking about. Kiran-" Damn where did that pirate go?" Martican (co-pilot)-" He went behind those two big pink asteroids." Kiran-"Will you stop taking the **** out of my fury dice?" |
Bolka |
Posted - 2003.06.30 12:26:00 -
[20] Very good post here. I agree with everything, though I have to say these things don't bother me as much. I haven't played as much as you have though, even if I started at beta. I admire EVE for its different thinking in the MOMPG world, as it's a very different game than what's available out there. It is also a challenge to make a space MO game. I think EVE has a very good potential, but that most of it has still to be developped, that it is a good canvas that has yet to become a powerful game. This was my conclusion at the end of beta, and the game hasn't substantialy changed since then. The life of an MOMPG is also about timing, as you don't get many chances at convincing the public, and as it is now, it doesn't seem EVE has what it takes to keep a critical mass of players for a long time. Edited by: Bolka on 30/06/2003 12:29:12 |
nono |
Posted - 2003.06.30 12:44:00 -
[21] ""nono: If you have followed the charts in EVE-I.com you might also have noticed that when there is an unexpected downtime 5-10% of the playerbase disaperes, my guess is that those are AFK players. Mainly AFK-miners, I know I did my share of that. And if you exaggerate the meaning of that and draw unsupported conclusions you might draw the conclusion that the growth during the last 3 weeks have only been people starting to use alt chars more and more."" Unexpected downtime may lead to a drop as you say on Eve-I.com. I wasn't refering to that at all, in fact I've never noticed it. The numbers in total (if true) reflect the player base online and if you notice they aren't increasing. Yesterday's peak was around 5200. Saturday and Sunday has seen high's of over 6000 in the past weeks. I mearly point out that with further distribution, ie. more sales, shouldn't we be seeing an increase online? Alt characters would not add to online numbers as you can only log on one at a time. Unless people go out and by extra CD's for thier multiple computers. AFK anything means the game does not capture your attention and encourages you to do something else with your time. In other words instead of being bored out of your skull staring at your ship warping, we have autopilot, now new and improved to not be interupted. AFK in an Indy mining with one mining laser is risky but you can also go take a nap or do your laundry or whatever. Sounds captivating to me. The reason we have uninterupted autopilot is people were going to quit if they actually had to sit in front of thier computers and stare at thier ships for 20+ jumps. Some have posted all ****ed off if they return and find the autopilot stopped while they were doing something else. Would be the same thing if you plotted a course and the game logged you off until it completed its journey, or after an hour or so you just appear in the system you selected. "Course plotted. You will arrive at your destination in 1 hour 3 minutes. Please log off and return at this time. Your ship will be waiting." Joy! Might as well have EVE made macros to do everything from mining to trading so you never have to log on. |
Tos' Lavoch |
Posted - 2003.06.30 12:44:00 -
[22] I have to admit that there are problems, the question is how to fix them. The economy needs a good bump start, the whole idea of blueprints was an interesting approach but it makes things too easy to mass produce. We need a way of slowing production, perhaps introducing ship components. A NPC factory could produce ship parts that need to be assembled along with a set ammount of minerals to produce a ship. Make the number of components limited and don't have blueprints for them, that way the Mega corps can't have everthing they need for ship production under one roof. The police also need a good tweek as do the Law's of the land. Attacking anyone in a high security region should bring on the wrath of the Gods, anyone with a low security rating shouldn't even be able to enter a high security system..Noobs need protecting if they are going to stay in the game. I'm all for pirates but breaking the law should have some sort of penalty. As for the thieving scum who blatantly steal mined minerals right under your nose, I don't know how to solve that problem, the introduction of large canisters that have enough capacity to fill a large industrial ship with a lock or password perhaps? Something should be done about the use of disposable characters. Having the ability to create another character simply to further the goals of the primary one before deleting it to cover your tracks "Just isn't cricket". I'm not sure how this could be done but there must be a way. |
Merell |
Posted - 2003.06.30 16:37:00 -
[23] Bolka, I don't necessarily think that a huge game world gives long travel times. Yes ofcourse it will take a long time going from point A to point B in the game, but you shouldn't have to travel all the time, and then it doesn't matter. Infinite factory/researsh/office slots and more resources a.s.o. in closer proximity would mean that you could still play EVE the same way, without as much travel. And ofcourse agents shouldn't give missions that requires to long traveltimes with almost no reward at all. |
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