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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.13 18:36:00 -
[1]
TL;DR? "Check out mah setup"
Most of us are familiar with the "Pantheon" setup popularized by Rooks and Kings in their "Clarion Call" youtube series. The video demonstrated the incredible effectiveness of spider-tanking setups on capital class vessels. However, that video was published in October of 2009, preceding both the change to Titan doomsdays and Dominion-related Supercarrier proliferation.
Since then, the Aeon and Nyx have become the dominant supercarriers in capital ship engagements, and their incredible HP buffers have yielded to buffer tanking resist setups in favor of the active tanking ships of old. Instead, they rely upon cheaper carrier remote-rep support to provide their sustained EHP.
However, with the sheer amount of DPS that post-Dominion titans and supercarriers bring to bear is immense and easily exceeds the capability of a triage carrier to endure. In response, I have created the following Archon fitting which brings the remote-repair tactics even further -- from the strategy of a RR-BS to a true logistics ship, drawing both its capacitor and its reps from similarly equipped fleetmates.
The goals of this ship were twofold: Maximize EHP (to provide appropriate time to transfer reps) and maximize sustained remote repairs. By using only three capital reps and focusing on resists, this setup increases the sustained DPS per carrier from 5000, cited in the R&K video...to over 7000.
I present the Guardian-Pantheon, a supercarrier escort platform with over 2 million EHP 7225 sustained remote rep, complete with requisite ECCM and sensor boosters.
Stats with CR4, EE4, and CC4 implants [Archon, Guardian-Pantheon]
Capital Energy Transfer Array I Capital Energy Transfer Array I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution ECCM - Radar II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
Damage Control II Armor Explosive Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Armor EM Hardener II Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Large Remote Repair Augmentor I Large Remote Repair Augmentor I Large Remote Repair Augmentor I
Einherji x10
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.13 21:05:00 -
[2]
Really? 144 views and nobody has anything to say?
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Target Painter
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Posted - 2010.12.13 21:09:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Target Painter on 13/12/2010 21:09:15 People are busy theorycrafting/EFT warrioring themselves. Or raging that you came up with a fit to make already nearly invulnerable ships even harder to kill.
It's an interesting setup to be sure.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.13 21:13:00 -
[4]
I'll tentatively take that as a compliment. I had been debating using remote SeBos and ECCMs. Does anyone have any opinions on this?
I'm quite looking forward to seeing what the meta-2 capital modules from Incursion do to this setup, though I am concerned that they may be too expensive for sub-supercapital ships. I suppose it remains to be seen.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.13 21:20:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Aamrr I'll tentatively take that as a compliment. I had been debating using remote SeBos and ECCMs. Does anyone have any opinions on this?
I wouldn't do it. Its too easy to fail cascade on a single jam/damp.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.13 22:40:00 -
[6]
That was my thought, too. Feels good to hear it from someone else, though.
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Templar Dane
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.12.13 22:45:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Aamrr I'll tentatively take that as a compliment. I had been debating using remote SeBos and ECCMs. Does anyone have any opinions on this?
I wouldn't do it. Its too easy to failscade to a single jam/damp.
-Liang
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Headerman
Minmatar Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.12.13 22:47:00 -
[8]
That said, would a RR carrier have need for a Sebo? What would the locking time be onto another carrier with or without it?
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.13 23:06:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Aamrr on 13/12/2010 23:08:58
Originally by: Headerman That said, would a RR carrier have need for a Sebo? What would the locking time be onto another carrier with or without it?
Honestly, not particularly hot. Looks like it'd be about 7.73 seconds to lock another archon with this. And then you've got the 10 second capital armor rep delay... ...well, EHP only goes so far.
With the SeBo, that drops to 4.83 seconds. And since this carrier relies more on remote cap generation than local, midslot cap rechargers aren't that essential. I'd keep the SeBo.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.12.13 23:09:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Headerman That said, would a RR carrier have need for a Sebo? What would the locking time be onto another carrier with or without it?
4.8s vs 7.7s archon on archon according to eft
and as for the rigs eft states "Note: Does not work on capital sized modules" if that isn't accurate well never mind me
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.13 23:11:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Aamrr on 13/12/2010 23:13:31 I believe you're thinking of either crystal implants or capacitor safeguard rigs -- both of which apply to shields, not armor. The armor rigs mention nothing about not applying to capital ships.
EDIT: Both pyfa and EFT say nothing about it not applying to capital ships, and both of them improve the efficiency of reps when used on carriers. I think you're mistaken?
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Septu Resheph
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Posted - 2010.12.14 00:18:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Septu Resheph on 14/12/2010 00:24:11
Originally by: Aamrr TL;DR? "Check out mah setup"
However, with the sheer amount of DPS that post-Dominion titans and supercarriers bring to bear is immense and easily exceeds the capability of a triage carrier to endure. In response, I have created the following Archon fitting which brings the remote-repair tactics even further -- from the strategy of a RR-BS to a true logistics ship, drawing both its capacitor and its reps from similarly equipped fleetmates.
The goals of this ship were twofold: Maximize EHP (to provide appropriate time to transfer reps) and maximize sustained remote repairs. By using only three capital reps and focusing on resists, this setup increases the sustained DPS per carrier from 5000, cited in the R&K video...to over 7000.
I present the Guardian-Pantheon, a supercarrier escort platform with over 2 million EHP 7225 sustained remote rep, complete with requisite ECCM and sensor boosters.
Stats with CR4, EE4, and CC4 implants [Archon, Guardian-Pantheon]
bla bla ship build
This topic is a complete troll.....but
I gotta ask, what program did you use to make this fit? Its most definitely not the standard eft and sadly it hasn't been updated in along time. I ran the numbers and if you were using that to heal another capital that wasn't returning anything to you, your cap would last 2 min. With just 2 of said ships reping each other, the cap would last 5 min. I've gotta ask why you would put such an expensive ship on the field with that set up? The way it is, it is good for nothing more then cannon fodder. It requires a spider rep to keep it up(edit out) . Finally those "Large Remote Repair Augmentor I" do not effect capital size modals, I double checked before I made this post.
(edit) This ship build is a complete waste of time, and to build this ship would be a complete waste of resources. There are vastly better options available. I could see the Russians using this because the end justifies the means and there is seemingly no end to their resources and they lengths they will go to try and succeed.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.14 00:34:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Aamrr on 14/12/2010 00:36:16 I happen to be using Pyfa for my fittings. It's a nice cross-platform program written in python. Right now, it's about to publish its second release candidate. The program in question runs capacitor simulation program that models expenditures and influx, creating a remarkably accurate picture of capacitor generation. Under this model, with the appropriate rigs and implants which DO WORK, the ship should last almost two hours. This assumes that the ship is running all modules constantly. Between delays in switching targets, this is obviously not the case. It will be stable in practice.
What you apparently failed to understand is that this ship participates in a capacitor transfer chain. Project the two capital energy transfer modules in its high slots onto itself -- you'll see that the ship achieves the stability I talked about in my post.
The rigs in question each provide a 20% reduction in the cost of the remote repair modules, with a cumulative effect that each costs only 51.2% of its base cost. The benefits of this should be obvious. Any excess repair or capacitor the fleet generates is free to be passed on to other capitals -- such as the supercarrier I talked about in my opening post.
So as you can see, when participating in a spider tank and capacitor transfer chain, the ship achieves stability. It should be obvious from the context of my post that the ship was intended to be receiving transfers from like-fitted fleetmates. If you didn't follow that, perhaps you should read the post again before you accuse me of trolling.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.12.14 00:48:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Septu Resheph I've gotta ask why you would put such an expensive ship on the field with that set up? The way it is, it is good for nothing more then cannon fodder. It requires a spider rep to keep it up(edit out)
requires a spider tank to keep any ship up against focused fire. and a carrier isn't really all that expensive.
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CharmingButIrrational
Roswell Project Victimz
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Posted - 2010.12.14 00:49:00 -
[15]
This ship modification is designed to reduce the capacitor need for a ship's remote armor repair modules at the expense of max velocity.
Note: Does not work on capital sized modules
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.14 00:53:00 -
[16]
Originally by: CharmingButIrrational This ship modification is designed to reduce the capacitor need for a ship's remote armor repair modules at the expense of max velocity.
Note: Does not work on capital sized modules
Funny, I just linked an image from in-game that specifically lacks that quote. Where are you finding your information?
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.12.14 00:56:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Aamrr
Originally by: CharmingButIrrational This ship modification is designed to reduce the capacitor need for a ship's remote armor repair modules at the expense of max velocity.
Note: Does not work on capital sized modules
Funny, I just linked an image from in-game that specifically lacks that quote. Where are you finding your information?
as I said earlier eft says that, but ingame does not say that, but that doesn't mean in game is right. if I had a carrier I'd go try it.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.14 00:58:00 -
[18]
Because EFT has never been wrong about anything.
Looks like we need to do some tests. Anyone want to hop on sisi?
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CharmingButIrrational
Roswell Project Victimz
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Posted - 2010.12.14 01:16:00 -
[19]
I stand corrected. That's a nice little tidbit to know.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.14 01:21:00 -
[20]
Given what I put together with those rigs, I'm inclined to agree. I wonder if it might have changed in a recent patch, because the information on eve-wiki contradicts what's currently being displayed on the in-game descriptions and the behavior in tranquility.
Stealth archon buff, anyone?
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Headerman
Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.12.14 02:02:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Headerman on 14/12/2010 02:15:21 I am bored at work and have been doing some EFT'ing with a Nid.
The best thing about the nid is the lil 5% bonus to Cap RR amount per level. As there is no bonus to cap at all, i have dropped the EE4 implant in favour of the ZET2000. I am also thrown in a low grade slave set cause of the ships pretty crappy HP...
[Nidhoggur, New Setup 1] Armor EM Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Explosive Hardener II Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Damage Control II
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution
Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Drone Control Unit I
Large Remote Repair Augmentor I Large Remote Repair Augmentor I Large Remote Repair Augmentor I
Cap lasts 6 minutes (5m 59 seconds), EHP is 1.5m, lowest resist is explosive, at 74%.
Certainly not as good as an Archon, but this has (all @ 5) 66% increase in repping amount
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.14 02:19:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Headerman Edited by: Headerman on 14/12/2010 02:15:21 I am bored at work and have been doing some EFT'ing with a Nid.
Honestly, you're not going to get much better with that ship. Nice work, but...it's no Archon, and with a rep/sec to EHP ratio like that, it'll get primaried rather promptly.
One of the advantages of the Archon setup I linked above is that it's not an attractive target to primary -- you're just not going to be doing much damage to a ship tanked that heavily. The Nidhoggur, lacking the resist bonus and capacitor of the Amarrian hull, can't really compete.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.14 02:23:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Headerman Damage Control II
Faction smartbomb to get rid of the clouds of ECM drones. Also, deplorable lack of ECCM. :(
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.14 02:30:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Headerman Damage Control II
Faction smartbomb to get rid of the clouds of ECM drones. Also, deplorable lack of ECCM. :(
-Liang
I agree with you Liang, I really do, but the Nidhoggur is just so capacitor constrained...
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Headerman
Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.12.14 02:36:00 -
[25]
Just updated: added a true sansha smart bomb for em (highest resist on the double nidhoggur), and nearly doubled the ships sensor strength from 68 to 133. Cap has been reduced to about 5 minutes, still fairly decent Vs the Archon.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.12.14 02:46:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Headerman Just updated: added a true sansha smart bomb for em (highest resist on the double nidhoggur), and nearly doubled the ships sensor strength from 68 to 133. Cap has been reduced to about 5 minutes, still fairly decent Vs the Archon.
Add a Jackal set (Grail for the Archon!) for extra safety. They're pretty cheap last time I looked too.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.12.14 02:47:00 -
[27]
I would drop the damage control for a capacitor power relay, to be honest. You're already painfully low on capacitor stability as it is, and the damage control actually gives less tank than an EANM would.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.12.14 02:55:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Aamrr Edited by: Aamrr on 14/12/2010 01:09:50 Because EFT has never been wrong about anything.
Looks like we need to do some tests. Anyone want to hop on sisi?
EDIT: Just asked a friendly Archon pilot to help me out on Sisi.
pilotsr > 911.25 GJ without pilotsr > 729 GJ with
Exactly the 20% reduction we're expecting. Looks like it works and EFT is in fact wrong.
ingame used to not have the does not work on cap mods bit. people loved to come whine on the forums that their crystal set did nothing on that shiny new carrier. I was figuring both were wrong. but since it works it makes the setup far more interesting.
I would have tried this on sisi earlier, but I didn't expect it to be up after the fire
rep goes from 810 to 414.72 with 3x of the rig and capital remote armor repair systems 4.
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Septu Resheph
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Posted - 2010.12.14 02:56:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Septu Resheph Edited by: Septu Resheph on 14/12/2010 00:24:11 (edit) This ship build is a complete waste of time, and to build this ship would be a complete waste of resources. There are vastly better options available. I could see the Russians using this because the end justifies the means and there is seemingly no end to their resources and they lengths they will go to try and succeed.
Originally by: Aamrr EDIT: And to be quite frank, your comment on Russian tactics and "extremes" strikes me as a bit racist. You might reconsider such comments in the future. We all play the same game here, and we're all looking for success in combat. A more tolerant tone would serve you better.
Let me make myself perfectly clear, don't you dare EVER call me racist again. You only managed to show your own ignorance and closed mindedness. Racism is mostly commonly not just a lack of tolerance but more over a lack of knowledge, understanding and acceptance. Don't talk to me about racism b****, I could run circles around you on the subject and the diversity of my group of friends in real life. Unlike you I walk away from the game and go out into the world, read, learn and enjoy life as it was meant to be imo. I commented on how they will go to any means necessary to accomplish what they set out to do. They need a job done, they find what they need to make it happen and they do it, they don't care about the cost, they don't care if its unorthodox, they don't care what other people think. Most people don't have the balls to step up to the plate and take that kind of initiative. That is a compliment and is admirable.
Originally by: Aamrr Edited by: Aamrr on 14/12/2010 00:42:46 Edited by: Aamrr on 14/12/2010 00:38:24 What you apparently failed to understand is that this ship participates in a capacitor transfer chain. Project the two capital energy transfer modules in its high slots onto itself -- you'll see that the ship achieves the stability I talked about in my post.
The rigs in question each provide a 20% reduction in the cost of the remote repair modules, with a cumulative effect that each costs only 51.2% of its base cost. The benefits of this should be obvious. Any excess repair or capacitor the fleet generates is free to be passed on to other capitals -- such as the super carrier I talked about in my opening post.
So as you can see, when participating in a spider tank and capacitor transfer chain, the ship achieves stability. It should be obvious from the context of my post that the ship was intended to be receiving transfers from like-fitted fleetmates, contributing almost 7000 tanked DPS per carrier. If you didn't foll
First off, I didn't fail to realize anything, you are t2 fitting and placing a 700m++ ship at risk with a fail fit. Using the cap transfer to create cap is a good use. However the regeneration compared to the use still does not match to give you a cap stability of nearly 2 hours much less effectively stable. The base regen on your fit without cap transfer is roughly speaking 94 which is a far cry from what is required. As it sits what I figure you will need just over 500 with everything running. With everything on with two energy transfers is not enough to get to the cap stability you are referring to since if I'm correct u gain 700 cap per cycle (10 sec)per unit. Now not to say I didn't mess up on something.
Originally by: Aamrr Edited by: Aamrr on 14/12/2010 01:09:50 Because EFT has never been wrong about anything.
Looks like we need to do some tests. Anyone want to hop on sisi?
EDIT: Just asked a friendly Archon pilot to help me out on Sisi.
pilotsr > 911.25 GJ without pilotsr > 729 GJ with
Exactly the 20% reduction we're expecting. Looks like it works and EFT is in fact wrong.
Congratz, you found a fla and now I had to do more math....fixed above
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Septu Resheph
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Posted - 2010.12.14 03:08:00 -
[30]
btw if I am wrong on my math, which hey, I am fine with, I would actually be really happy if I was wrong because it has so many beautiful possibilities for builds. but lets be sure on who's math is closer first.
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